Slashdot Mirror
Apple To Start Paying Ireland the Billions It Owes In Back Taxes (engadget.com)
Last year, Apple was ordered to pay a record sum of 13 billion euros ($14.5 billion) plus interest after the European Commission said Ireland illegally slashed the iPhone maker's tax bill. "But Ireland was rather slow to start collecting that cash, which led the Commission to refer the Irish government to the European Court of Justice in October due to Ireland's non-compliance with the 2016 ruling," reports Engadget. "However, the Wall Street Journal reports today that the country will finally start collecting those billions of dollars owed by Apple and it may start doing so early next year." From the report:
Both Apple and Ireland have fought back against the ruling -- Ireland has said that the European Union overstepped its authority and got some of the country's laws wrong while Apple has maintained that the amount it's being told to repay was miscalculated. Both are continuing to appeal the decision and the money will sit in an escrow fund while they do so. Ireland has said that negotiating the terms of that fund is what has held up its collection of the money but the European Commission said that the action it has taken against Ireland for failing to follow the 2016 ruling will proceed until the money is collected in full.
Black Taxes, White Taxes ... what's the difference?
Apple (and a lot of other corporations, to be honest) pulled a LOT of tricks to keep from paying taxes in the U.S. and elsewhere. I suppose it's nice some country is getting a big corporation to pay up, and if it's Ireland, I'm certain it was a sweet deal to start with (just to get Apple to settle down there in the first place).
Here's hoping Ireland uses some of the money to finish some lovely road and railway and railway projects - they need 'em.
Take it easy, Charlie, I've got an Angle...
Soon to be irrelevant? Who is going to make it irrelevant? Keep sucking up to your corporate masters, I am sure they are going to be good to you.
"Succeed" from the EU? That pretty much sums up your intelligence.
Is anyone forcing Ireland to be in the EU? Honest question. I thought they were there because they wanted to be.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Will Ireland exit the EU next?
Website Just Down For Me? Find out
I hate it when companies think it is OK to become filthy rich and not have to pay any taxes. Instead they move their money into some off shore account to avoid this. I guess Apple should think about putting them money back into the US and help OUR economy!
Ireland saw an opportunity to steal tax revenue from other countries in order to provide minor benefits to its own local economy. It got called out for it and now is whining about it. Ireland would be one of the countries to suffer the most should the EU dissolve or become irrelevant, they depend on it hugely to maintain their economy.
1. Offer a sweetheart tax deal to very large company. Collect almost no taxes.
2. Get caught out by the EU.
3. Demand payment of back taxes from the large company.
This 13B euro is more than Ireland would have ever collected through its illegal low tax scheme over the next decades or more, so, even if no large companies chose to route their profits through Ireland, the country is still ahead on the deal and can blame someone else for the deal falling apart.
It's a brilliant move by Ireland!
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
So basically Ireland and other nations have been pauperizing themselves by refusing to collect taxes from a company that has a quarter trillion dollars in cash.
And they're fighting becoming wealthy by doing so.
Apple doesn't owe any taxes in Ireland, as defined by the laws of Ireland.
Incorrect, the laws of Ireland recognize the treaties that make Ireland part of the EU. And the language of those treaties recognizes the authority of the EC on this issue.
If Ireland wants to change its laws to allow it to charge Apple no tax it can follow Britain's example and do so.
The EU, a soon-to-be irrelevant third party, saw a bucket of cash it wanted and is somehow coercing both parties to get an unjustified payout.
Also incorrect, the tax in question is being paid to Ireland, not the EU. The reason they EU is getting involved is the EU has rules to avoid countries engaging in a race to the bottom to attract major corporations. Ireland violated those rules.
I stole this Sig
Exactly one country is leaving, and it doesnâ(TM)t even want to any more, having firmly realized that was a jolly great mistake.
But Iâ(TM)m sure the facts wonâ(TM)t get in your way.
They have the option of removing themselves from the EU. The EU is not forcing them to stay a member, but while they are they need to follow their rules.
Or Ireland did it knowing the EU would eventually make the companies pay up.
They get the best of both worlds then, the jobs that come with attracting the big companies and the taxes too.
The EU is not an irrelevant third party, it is the main reason why Apple is in Ireland.
Do you think Apple has such a presence in Ireland for the domestic market?
Ireland has signed and ratified a treaty to be in the EU, they didn't follow the rules, it is illegal.
Simple solution: Ireland needs to impose a 500% tax on all domestically produced Champagne and Camembert. And then scream like hell when France undercuts it's tax revenues.
Have gnu, will travel.
The less money they have in their bank account, the more they'll have to actually work on making their Macs better in order to sell more of them.
#DeleteFacebook
"Succeed" from the EU? That pretty much sums up your intelligence.
Well at least it was a successful demonstration...
the tax in question is being paid to Ireland, not the EU. The reason they EU is getting involved is the EU has rules to avoid countries engaging in a race to the bottom to attract major corporations. Ireland violated those rules.
What's to prevent Ireland from "hiring" Google to perform some token service for them and then handing all of the tax money back?
Two things, first, the company in this story was Apple.
Second is the same set of underlying rules, according to this:
The commission says that lower tax bills create illegal "state aid", giving firms advantages over rivals.
So if the violation isn't taxes in specific, but rather the practice of giving big companies sweetheart deals, then handing the money back to Google would be an even more obvious violation.
I stole this Sig
LOL Ireland setting an example of thrift and judgement lol you aren't familiar with the state of the Irish economy I gather. hint while stealing this money they also had multiple bailouts from the EU over the last decade.
What the fuck is "lede"?
such a word actually exists, though not as used here. In the old printed newspaper industry it was a variant spelling of "lead" as in "lead paragraph," spelled that way to avoid confusion with the heavy metal that was a daily part of their lives.
Apple should spend seven billion to provide arms to Ireland to succeed from the EU.
Fucking moron. Ireland doesn't need arms to leave the EU because it's a soverign country. All they have to do is invoke Article 51.
They won't of course because as they can see from their neighbour, it's an incredibly stupid idea.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Is anyone forcing Ireland to be in the EU? Honest question.
Nope. If Ireland want to leave, they merely have to invoke Article 51.
I thought they were there because they wanted to be.
They are. As we can now see (and how most of the world saw beforehand), invoking Article 51 would be an incredibly bad idea.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
He's probably American. For some reason they often consider themselves to be experts on countries they've never visited and couldn't even point to on a map.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Ireland is in almost the unique position to ignore this particular EU directive. The EU will not kick them out.
No it is not. The EU is backing the Republic to the hilt in the N-Ireland border dispute with Britain due to Brexit and the EU has pretty much told them the EU will veto any offer the British make that the Irish Republic does not like. It is very much in Ireland's interest not to piss the EU off any more and the EU26 are already pretty pissed over Ireland's tax haven antics.
Yes, they can. It is entirely fine for Ireland to set their corporation tax rate to zero. It is not, however, fine for Ireland to set Apple's tax rate to 0.005% (not a typo), but keep everyone else's at 25/12.5%(non-trading income / trading income), because that's state aid to a specific company. This is in violation of the free trade treaties that Ireland signed with the EU, which (try to) guarantee a level playing field for companies competing within the single market.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Yes, because leaving the EU is working out so well for the UK, I'm sure it will work out even better for a country with a much smaller economy, a large chunk of which is based on being a convenient place for multinational corporations to put their EU presence.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
That argument makes no sense at all. Ireland has low corporation tax rates. Their tax rate of 12.5% is one of the lowest in the EU. This makes Ireland attractive to multinationals that want to have a single presence in the EU and put their corporate income in a low-tax country. This is completely fine, within the rules of the EU, and no one is objecting to it.. They then offered a special deal to Apple, where they would pay only 0.005% tax. This is in violation of the state aid laws, that don't allow special deals for individual companies. It would probably be fine for Ireland to have a 0.005% tax rate for all tech companies, but it's not fine for them to have a special rate just for Apple, because that distorts the market and gives Apple a big competitive advantage over competitors that have to pay the 12.5% rate.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Can't.
It would be against EU rules on state aid and unfair targeted taxation. Would also go against harmonized tax levels for produce. Champagne is a protected name in the EU, which can only be used for wine from that region of France. Thus, there can be no domestic production in Ireland. Same with Cornish pasties and the like.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Just no... Ireland isn't in any kind of special position and kicking them out at the same time as Britain leaves would actually make the whole brexit process a lot less complicated.
Ireland really does get more out of the EU than the EU gets out of Ireland. Ever since joining the EU Ireland has attracted companies wanting to do business in the EU with it's considerably lower corporate tax rate (12.5% right now when the rest of the EU ranges from about 20 to 30%) and if they get kicked out companies really don't have any real reasons to stay in Ireland when they're going to have to pay these rates on their profits in these countries along with tariffs.
"Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
The EU, a soon-to-be irrelevant third party, saw a bucket of cash it wanted and is somehow coercing both parties to get an unjustified payout.
The money in question will not and never would have gone to the EU. It is taxes owed to Ireland, so when paid (not if) it will go into Irish coffers.
Except the EU agreement EXCLUDES taxation. So EC's attempt to bring taxation under its authority has no legal basis.
The Treaty of Lisbon, one of the founding documents of the EEC, which Ireland ratified when they joined it in the 1970s and would eventually evolve into the EU, is pretty clear on this subject and the EU most definitely has the authority to levy sanctions, even kick a country out of the EU, for violating the treaties the EU is based upon.
Not sure how you somehow got it into your head that the EU somehow has no authority on taxation, but the EU is built on a number of treaties, some of them containing parts relating to taxation. Sure, the EU may not be able to set actual tax rates in countries, but the Treaty of Lisbon most definitely does ban special company-specific tax deals like those that Ireland and Luxenburg have over the last few years been caught making.
If Apple doesn't like paying taxes on it's profits it can sell it's stuff elsewhere and if Ireland wants to make these deals they can join Britain in leaving the EU, but until they do, this is the reality.
"Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
The EU does not demand taxes.
The EU demands that Ireland collects from Apple the taxes that Apple owes Ireland based on irelands tax rates.
The EU gets no money out of this.
Apple just has to pay the taxes that the Irish laws say they should have paid to begin with.
Ireland get's the taxes that they are owed.
Ireland joined the EEC, which eventually evolved into the EU, in the 1970s with the intent of getting companies to move their European operations there by offering a lower tax rate than other countries. The rest of the EU/EEC was fine with this as long as they applied the tax rate evenly in accordance with the founding treaties of the EEC/EU, which Ireland had ratified and thus bound themselves to following.
However the problems began when it was discovered that Ireland had moved on from being a low tax area to being a literal tax haven, thus breaking the treaties they had signed and bound themselves to following. Ireland knew this broke the treaties they had signed and bound themselves to following so they made these treaties secret. However when these treaties were then leaked, all hell broke lose and the EU really had no choice but to take action as allowing Ireland to break the treaties relating to state aid would inevitably lead to other countries following suit and massive race to the bottom would ensue.
If Ireland doesn't like these treaties anymore, they're completely free to de-ratify them, thus joining Britain in leaving the EU. However until they do, they're still bound by them and have to follow them or face sanctions from the EU. Same thing applies to Apple who can just as well go sell their stuff elsewhere if they think a 12.5% corporate tax rate is unreasonably high.
"Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
They then offered a special deal to Apple
Nope. That deal is available to any corporation in Ireland. No tax on revenues from outside the country.
Have gnu, will travel.
Champagne is a protected name in the EU
So the Irish tax will be on sparkling wine.
It would be against EU rules on state aid and unfair targeted taxation.
But that's what the French are doing. They are charging unfairly low tax rates for their domestic produce. They have driven poor Ireland out of the Champa.... er, sparkling wine business.
Have gnu, will travel.
If true the it seems like Ireland would have a very good case to take up with the European courts, which are there to resolve these kinds of issue. You know, the ones that told them Apple has to pay tax.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
well, we Yanks are experts at fucking it up and blaming the other guy, so... In this case I think it may be ok? /quiet sobbing
lulz...
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump
Right. And then the EU's entire tax regime collapses in a giant case of reductio ad absurdum. Allowing the laziest and greediest nations to dictate policy.
Have gnu, will travel.
Ireland offered Apple a special deal.
Not really. Apple was just smart enough to ask how to structure their operations to take advantage of Irish law. Others have done the same, such as Facebook, Microsoft and Oracle to name just a few.
Apple simply took greater advantage of the law, amassing more offshore funds exempt from taxes than the others did. The whole 'special deal' b.s. is just something the EU tax authorities have put forth so as not to explain what sort of plea bargains they have offered others. And what the quid pro quo for those bargains was.
Have gnu, will travel.
and that would get them precisely nothing, undercutting another countries tax rate is perfectly fine in the EU and they can scream all they want. What is NOT fine is giving specific companies tax deals that are not available to all companies which is what Ireland have done.