Microsoft Debuts Windows 10 on ARM; Asus and HP Unveil Laptops With 20-Hour Battery Life, Gigabit LTE (zdnet.com)

Mary Jo Zoley, writing for ZDNet: A year ago, Microsoft announced it was working with its PC partners to bring Windows 10 to Qualcomm's ARM processors. The resulting machines, part of the "Always Connected PC" ecosystem, would start rolling out before the end of calendar 2017, officials said. Today, December 5, Microsoft provided a progress report on Windows on ARM at Qualcomm's Snapdragon Tech Summit. Microsoft and PC makers Asus and HP showed off new PCs running Windows 10 on Snapdragon 835 at the event. Asus' NovoGo will begin shipping at least in quantities before year-end, I've heard. Models with 4 GB of RAM and 16 GB of storage will be available starting at $599, and 8GB/256 GB storage model at $799, Asus officials said today. Asus is claiming 22 hours of continuous video playback and 30 days of standby. HP's Envy x2 -- like most of the ARM-based Always Connected Windows 10 devices -- won't be available until Spring of 2018. Users can get up to 20 hours of active use and 700 hours of "Connected Modern Standby." Pricing is not yet available.

Comments

Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Use Linux. No spying. No forced updates. Totally secure.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[b0s0z0ku]

Other than Outlook (which will work online these days) and gaming, my Ubuntu laptop works fine for productivity.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[GameboyRMH]

But you repeat yourself...

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[chispito]

Other than Outlook (which will work online these days) and gaming, my Ubuntu laptop works fine for productivity.

I'm guessing you don't do heavy video or photo editing.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[b0s0z0ku]

I do photo editing for Web use -- GIMP works as well as paid subscriptionware from Adobe in the RGB space.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a statement that can only be made by someone who has not used Photoshop, or, if they have, does not know how to use it well..... For those who actually have made their living using it, GIMP is a joke, and a very bad one at that.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[scumdamn]

If your living involves development it's actually a great operating system. Windows can't even do node.js correctly without WSL.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Serious question: Since any Linux distro has to be built for any specific ARM device (take the Raspberry Pis and similar SoC computers as examples), would these new Windows 10 ARM laptops require a custom image/firmware *each*? Or can a Linux distro install to them the same as any other x86/x64 platform? I'm not familiar enough with Linux-on-ARM except for loading images to an SD card for the Pi, so I genuinely don't know.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[ThePawArmy]

Like you would be doing heavy video or photo editing on a ARM processor.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a statement that can only be made by someone who has not used Photoshop, or, if they have, does not know how to use it well..... For those who actually have made their living using it, GIMP is a joke, and a very bad one at that.

You're certainly a SME on jokes.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Another Question. I heard ARM devices were restricted with secure boot. I bought a small computer and was unable to install Linux on it a few years ago. I could not disable secure boot and could not boot from the DVD drive. I haven't tried in a while, but are ARM devices locked with secure boot? How can I avoid buying a locked device in the future?

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Hal_Porter]

Windows runs on top of UEFI so it's possible that you could install a generic 'ARM Linux' image on them.

However in the past Microsoft have forced hardware vendors to lock down their ARM devices but not lock down their x86/x64 ones

https://www.pcworld.com/articl...

"Disabling Secure [Boot] MUST NOT be possible on ARM systems," reads page 116 of the company's Windows Hardware Certification Requirements document, as noted recently by Computerworld UK blogger Glyn Moody.

"Microsoft confirms UEFI fears, locks down ARM devices" was the title of the ensuing blog post from the Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC).

'Custom Mode Allows for More Flexibility'

So that's one bit of bad news for Linux users. On the PC side, however, things are more complicated.

For non-ARM devices, Microsoft's Certification Requirements define a "custom" Secure Boot mode that seems to allow for the installation of Linux. "On non-ARM systems, the platform MUST implement the ability for a physically present user to select between two Secure Boot modes in firmware setup: 'Custom' and 'Standard'," the Microsoft document specifies. "Custom Mode allows for more flexibility."

Specifically, Custom Mode will let users modify the contents of the Secure Boot signature databases and the platform key (PK) that verifies kernels during system start-up, thus potentially opening the door to alternative operating systems such as Linux.

I.e. Microsoft's view is that there are two different types of devices

1) 'PCs', i.e. x86/x64 devices where Microsoft was legally judged to be a monopoly. On those they force IHVs to allow the user to install new signatures. So you could install a certificate containing the Ubuntu public key and then the UEFI firmware would then verify and load kernels signed by Ubuntu's private key.

2) 'Appliances' - phones, tablets etc running on ARM. Microsoft can make a case that they're not a monopoly in this market and thus they can force IHVs to not allow you to install new signatures.

That's what happened with the Windows RT devices back with Windows 8. Those devices were locked down in other ways too - they'd only run Win32 ARM binaries if they were signed by Microsoft. Third party software had to be Metro. They also flopped pretty badly because in practice that meant they were pretty useless.

Windows 10 ARM devices will allow third party Win32 ARM binaries. They'll also have a emulator which can run Win32 x86 binaries. So maybe they'll change their policy and allow the user to install signatures and run an alternate OS. Or maybe they won't.

As far as I know they haven't made any definitive statement on this.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Crap, I forgot about that!! Windows 8 ARM devices mandate that secureboot be always-enabled. Oh dear.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[110010001000]

Why does everyone who is pro-Windows do "heavy video" and "photo editing"?

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[SumDog]

I'm a huge Linux user. It's my primary dev box and media centre. I love it and use it for everything.

That being said, no no no. Gimp does not compare to Photoshop, Inkscape is afar from Illustrator ... the only things close is Darktable, which gets pretty close to Lightroom, but it still have some UI disasters (but also a lot of contributors so I think we'll see improvements)

There are more indie games on Linux now, but for the most part, I still use a Windows laptop for photos, video and games. Oh and video editing on Linux is shit. Everything other than blender crashes all the damn time. I also prefer Resolve on Windows for video.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a statement that can only be made by someone who has not used GIMP, or, if they have, does not know how to use it well..... For those who actually have made their living using it, Photoshop is a joke, and a very bad one at that.

(And also it only runs on an OS that spies and/or steals your work from you. I would not trust my livelihood to such an OS.)

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

If you connect a smartphone to Linux via USB and perhaps even on the same Wi-Fi network, Linux spies on you too (or is that the PC hardware). Funny thing, is it doesn't happen if you disable SSDP.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[OrangeTide]

I'm guessing you don't do heavy video or photo editing.

It's a safe guess as most people do not. There are a thousand other jobs.

My job requires Linux, so obviously Windows is a bad choice for me. But I am not going to apply my own requirements broadly to all people, that would be silly.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[CastrTroy]

Is that the fault of Windows or is it the fault of Node.js? I don't think there's any failing of Windows that would cause node.js to just not work. One could easily say that Windows is better for development because Linux doesn't handle Windows app store development.

Re: Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, add any real structural engineering software to the list of things that make Linux a no go for me. Not hating, I would really love to switch, but it just doesnâ(TM)t work in this profession.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[chispito]

Why does everyone who is pro-Windows do "heavy video" and "photo editing"?

Oh a Mac would be a better option if that was a requirement for you. Ubuntu, or any flavor of Linux, would be far behind Windows, though.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[chispito]

I'm guessing you don't do heavy video or photo editing.

It's a safe guess as most people do not. There are a thousand other jobs.

My job requires Linux, so obviously Windows is a bad choice for me. But I am not going to apply my own requirements broadly to all people, that would be silly.

There are far more photographers than Unix admins out there. I'd wager far more people in video, too.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[OrangeTide]

There are far more photographers than Unix admins out there. I'd wager far more people in video, too.

I suspect the numbers are similar, but I don't really know. Google says about 56k professional photographers in the world, and I have no data on the number of Unix admins (I'm not a Unix admin, at least not in the last decade. But I still need Unix for my job). There are about 7 million tech workers in the US, but again I don't know how many of them use Unix, if I did I might be able to come up with a ball park estimate of the number of Unix admins needed to support them.

I'm willing to concede that you're right. But not by a large enough margin to really impact the original argument. And what I wasn't clear on is that while there are some jobs that require Unix (and by extension there are other jobs that require Windows). There are lots of times where people don't really need anything specific to either Windows or Linux and can be effective in either environment. (again, sorry if this is moving the goal posts. I was thinking it, but I realize now that I didn't state it)

Re: Fuck Windows 10

[Zero__Kelvin]

Yes, that's why the motion picture companies like Pixar insist on Windows for all their movie making needs!

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[tepples]

I regularly use FamiTracker, OpenMPT, and a few other applications. They aren't available as Linux native applications, but they work usably in Wine 1.8 in Debian 9 "Stretch". The one problem is that the x86 code won't work on an ARM processor without some sort of x86-to-ARM dynamic recompiler, such as that in Windows.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[ChunderDownunder]

One of the test scenarios for emulation was running 32bit Photoshop (x86) on Qualcomm chips. Check the promo videos from when this was announced last year.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[SurenEnfiajyan]

The third one isn't true.

Re: Fuck Windows 10

[Miamicanes]

> Why does everyone who is pro-Windows do "heavy video" and "photo editing"?

Probably because support for hardware codec-acceleration has historically been one of Linux's major weak points. Most video codec hardware acceleration requires proprietary binaries and/or royalty payments (at least, officially).

This is now probably a bad example, but I remember that ~4 years ago, Windows Media Center could play h.264 1080p60 video without issues on my Thinkpad T61p... but the same stuttered & dropped frames if I booted Ubuntu and tried to watch the same video using VLC. 720p24 or 720p30 was pushing my luck, though 480p24/30/60 generally did OK.

Why? Windows took advantage of nVidia's hardware h.264 acceleration. Linux (in general) and VLC (specifically) didn't.

If you're importing lots of video source shot on consumer-grade cameras, the difference between "instantaneous" and "grind everything to a halt for several seconds and spike the CPU at 99%" is a big deal.

I believe recent VLC releases for Linux WILL (now) take advantage of h.264 hardware acceleration if the driver supports it... but AFAIK, the open-source nVidia drivers don't support it.

Playing videos isn't the same as editing, but editing is basically a superset of playing (importing, previewing, etc). If the platform can't play h.264-encoded videos smoothly, using it to EDIT video is going to leave you in a world of pain.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[JohnFen]

One could easily say that Windows is better for development because Linux doesn't handle Windows app store development.

Wha? Who in the world cares about Windows app store development?

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Hal_Porter]

Small or Medium sized enterprise?

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Hal_Porter]

Notice they don't compare performance to an x86 chip. And it'll suck. An Snapdragon 835 compares poorly for performance with x86/x64 chips even given native code

http://weborus.com/snapdragon-...

And Photoshop x86 probably uses a lot of SIMD code. Theoretically you could probably JIT x86 SSE to ARM NEON, but Intel posted this

https://newsroom.intel.com/edi...

Intel carefully protects its x86 innovations, and we do not widely license others to use them. Over the past 30 years, Intel has vigilantly enforced its intellectual property rights against infringement by third-party microprocessors. One of the earliest examples, was Intel's enforcement of its seminal "Crawford '338 Patent." In the early days of our microprocessor business, Intel needed to enforce its patent rights against various companies including United Microelectronics Corporation, Advanced Micro Devices, Cyrix Corporation, Chips and Technologies, Via Technologies, and, most recently, Transmeta Corporation. Enforcement actions have been unnecessary in recent years because other companies have respected Intel's intellectual property rights.

However, there have been reports that some companies may try to emulate Intel's proprietary x86 ISA without Intel's authorization. Emulation is not a new technology, and Transmeta was notably the last company to claim to have produced a compatible x86 processor using emulation ("code morphing") techniques. Intel enforced patents relating to SIMD instruction set enhancements against Transmeta's x86 implementation even though it used emulation. In any event, Transmeta was not commercially successful, and it exited the microprocessor business 10 years ago.

Only time will tell if new attempts to emulate Intel's x86 ISA will meet a different fate. Intel welcomes lawful competition, and we are confident that Intel's microprocessors, which have been specifically optimized to implement Intel's x86 ISA for almost four decades, will deliver amazing experiences, consistency across applications, and a full breadth of consumer offerings, full manageability and IT integration for the enterprise. However, we do not welcome unlawful infringement of our patents, and we fully expect other companies to continue to respect Intel's intellectual property rights. Strong intellectual property protections make it possible for Intel to continue to invest the enormous resources required to advance Intel's dynamic x86 ISA, and Intel will maintain its vigilance to protect its innovations and investments.

There's a helpful graph of Intel patents on new instructions going back to 1996. US patents since 1995 have a 20 year life. Which means anything after 1997 is still valid. It's fair to assume that Photoshop uses some recent SIMD instructions for performance. The patents on those have a lot of time left in them.

Microsoft's emulation is part of Windows on Windows, i.e. the code which runs 32 bit x86 binaries on 64 bit Windows. So it will only work for 32 bit x86 applications, not 64 bit x64 ones.
x64 has SSE2 as part of the ISA and ABI, i.e. you'd have to violate those SSE patents to JIT it to ARM NEON.

I.e. Intel's threat over SIMD makes it hard to get something like Photoshop to run well on an ARM. And the fact that the fastest ARM chips are still quite a bit slower than the fastest x86/x64 chips does too.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[K. S. Kyosuke]

I don't see how any of that bullshit makes any sense. Not even any CPU emulation should be needed if you recompile the binary with something similar to DynamoRIO. Unless Intel claims to have patented debuggers and disassemblers, they can get the fuck out.

Re: Fuck Windows 10

[K. S. Kyosuke]

You mean the thing that used to run on Unix workstations in the past? It's weird that Linux should have any problems with it. After all, porting it to Windows must be more difficult than porting it to Linux.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Hal_Porter]

They sued Transmeta, which did code morphing.

Emulation is not a new technology, and Transmeta was notably the last company to claim to have produced a compatible x86 processor using emulation ("code morphing") techniques. Intel enforced patents relating to SIMD instruction set enhancements against Transmeta's x86 implementation even though it used emulation.

I.e. it doesn't matter if you execute an SSE instruction directly in hardware, or if you translate it to an ARM NEON instruction and execute that, it is still violating the patent.

In the Intel/Transmeta cases Transmeta sued Intel first, Intel then countersued over code code morphing violating SSE patents. The end result was a cross-licensing agreement. And then Transmeta failed due to poor sales.

https://www.eetimes.com/author...

Intel's patent lawsuit with Transmeta resulted in only a set of counteracting settlements and a cross-licensing agreement. Transmeta would shutter its doors some time later due to disappointing sales.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does everyone who is pro-Windows do "heavy video" and "photo editing"?

Because Windows users have a thing for fat chicks.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[K. S. Kyosuke]

or if you translate it to an ARM NEON instruction and execute that, it is still violating the patent.

What SSE patent can it possibly violate when I write a compiler for NEON? (Not to mention that I live in a place where math is not patentable anyway, but still...)

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Hal_Porter]

Mips sued Lexra. Lexra's chips didn't implement the patented instructions in the Mips instruction set but Mips argued that since the unimplemented patented instructions faulted, like other invalid instructions, it was theoretically possible for a user of the chip to emulate them in software and thus violate the patent. Lexra went bust without that argument being decided. The Intel Transmeta case was settled. So it's not clear what would happen if Intel sued either Microsoft or a hardware vendor over an emulator which allowed patented instructions to run on ARM

http://probell.com/lexra/

And before you talk about that being the same as banning compilers and assemblers it's not the same thing. An assembler or compiler that generates NEON instructions from assembler or C is not the same legally as a JIT compiler which generates them from x86 binaries in order to run them on ARM.

As someone once put it "Bits have color". The "color" in this case is intent - even though assemblers, compilers and JITs generate NEON instructions only the JIT does it to violate a patent. Intent matters legally, even if it doesn't in computer science and engineering.

http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry...

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[LostMyBeaver]

Won't work... simple as that.

You're thinking all code is created the same way.

Consider this, most code these days for Windows is generally packed in someway or another. Therefore while something like DynamicRIO could probably compil the unpacking code, the code would then be unpacked and would have to be executed. Since DynamicRIO would no longer be running, the unpacked x86 code could no longer run.

To make this work, it is necessary to employ a just-in-time compiler which is exactly the same as code morphing... which the article points out is still classified as executing the instructions. Just in an optimized fashion.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[thegarbz]

Why does everyone who is pro-Windows do "heavy video" and "photo editing"?

Because if they wern't there would be nothing tying them to Windows. It's like saying why is everyone who is Pro Ferrari interested in performance cars.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[thegarbz]

Oh a Mac would be a better option if that was a requirement for you.

Based on what? Most Macs come with a built-in display well outperformed by others in the industry. The one which doesn't costs more than a second hand car and is now is essentially ancient hardware with the dubious record of still being priced the same as it was on release date.

10 years ago this wouldn't have been a contest. But Apple has cut the creative professionals off at the knees and then pissed on them while they were down, so much so that Adobe now preferences PCs over Macs when it comes to releasing products (e.g. the move to 64bit was delayed by almost 2 years on the Mac, and there was an entire version of Photoshop on Mac that they never released).

Apple isn't for graphic designers anymore. It's for hipsters, consumers, rich teenagers, and anyone who is very late to jump on the me too bandwagon.

Even if there wasn't a software difference between them, high end silicon is costly enough without pissing money away on brushed aluminium and weird garbage bin styling.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing you don't do heavy video or photo editing.

Just like 99.9% of the world's population don't.

It's funny how Microsoft shills think that professional video and photo editing is something that everyone does.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

What are some examples of the things you can't do with Gimp that Photoshop does? And how often do you use that functionality?

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Inkscape is afar from Illustrator

And with that I can tell that you aren't an artist and have never used them. Inkscape is every bit as good as Illustrator. Some artists (real artists, not a poser like you) actually prefer Inkscape because it has a better interface than Illustrator.

Re: Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

With absolutely no information, I am going to guess that there are even fewer structural engineers in the world than "heavy video/photo editors". If you're a structural engineer and you need Windows for your software, fine, go nuts. But to suggest that your work in any way represents any significant number of users is absurd.

For most people the only legitimate argument for not running Free Software as their OS is video games.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it's exactly like that because as we all know, Ferrari is the most commonly bought and used car brand...

I seriously hope you aren't suggesting that all one billion Windows users are heavy into video and photo editing and that's why they use Windows.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[jonnyj]

Did you take a look at recent camera sales?

These days, most people take photos only with their phone. They're happy with the editing tools provided by Google and Apple. A few people own DSLRs. For most of them, simple apps like Shotwell are good enough. A few are more demanding and a tool like Darktable will meet their needs.

A tiny, tiny minority make a living from photography. They need Adobe's software and Linux won't cut it. But I doubt they constitute more than 0.1% of the population.

Re: Fuck Windows 10

[omnichad]

Pixar doesn't do a lot of video editing. Most of what they do is 3D modeling and animation, using their own proprietary software.

Re: Fuck Windows 10

[Zero__Kelvin]

Never the less you can do video editing better on Linux than on Windows, and true professionals use Linux. That's the point. We still have morons throwing around claims from the 90s in 2017 and it is absurd.

Re: Fuck Windows 10

[omnichad]

What video editing software is being run on Linux these days by the pros? I really don't see it.

Re: Fuck Windows 10

[Zero__Kelvin]

That's because you don't know how to Google. Here is an exercise for you. Find a link to a single movie production company that uses Windows.

Re: Fuck Windows 10

[omnichad]

Great argument - tell someone to Google. It's almost like you never had your own argument in the first place. You know that private companies tend not to publish trade secrets or really much of that info at all - there is no guarantee that this information is out there in any reliable capacity.

However what I do know is that Final Cut Pro usage is gaining usage in Hollywood. I also know that Avid Media Composer is huge and is Windows and Mac only. Nothing I find on Google tells me otherwise.

Re: Fuck Windows 10

[Zero__Kelvin]

Plonk

Re: Fuck Windows 10

[omnichad]

Giflornick

Re: Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Zero_Kelvin is a basement dwelling moron who is completely out of touch with the world. He's always pulling shit like this where he talks out of his ass but can never back it up with anything.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a fucking idiot. Anyone who runs Linux is 100% in control of updates along with every other aspect of the operating system.

Re: Fuck Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

What you say is of course strictly true. But in Windowsâ(TM) defense... WSL.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[K. S. Kyosuke]

And before you talk about that being the same as banning compilers and assemblers it's not the same thing. An assembler or compiler that generates NEON instructions from assembler or C is not the same legally as a JIT compiler which generates them from x86 binaries in order to run them on ARM.

As far as I know, in my country, all of these are allowed and not touchable by any patent of Intel. Hell, even reverse engineering of software for the sake of achieving its interoperability with something is untouchable by law here. I'm not questioning that legal hellholes can exist, but the argument that you shouldn't be able to do this is ridiculous.

Re:Fuck Windows 10

[Hal_Porter]

Well Intel have clearly stated they thing executing SSE instructions via emulation is just as infringing as executing them in hardware.

However Microsoft, Qualcomm and the hardware vendors seem like they're going to launch Snapdragon based devices with an x86 emulator. I suppose we'll have to see what happens - Intel might license its patents. Or it might sue.

Interestingly in the Transmeta case, Transmeta sued Intel. Intel then sued over SIMD patents. And the license fees ended up going from Intel to Transmeta. Then again Transmeta left the CPU market soon after, so maybe Intel got what it wanted in return for its license fees.

$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[b0s0z0ku]

Is this a bad joke? This is basically an underpowered netbook, regardless of battery life.

Also, it comes with Windows 10S, which is essentially crippled by design. Yeah, 10 Pro is free. For now.

Also, LTE replacing private WiFi for sensitive corporate applications? In whose dreams?

I can buy 2-3 refurb Thinkpad X-series for the same price.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree these in particular don't look like useful hardware.

If you look at a slightly bigger picture, I think running real operating systems and software on ARM hardware could end up being popular, since battery life is usually terrible on x64.

I think most of the Slashdot crowd could appreciate the possibility of having a smartphone without carrying 1984 around in your pocket, too.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[EndlessNameless]

This is basically an underpowered netbook, regardless of battery life.

The battery life is possible precisely because it is "underpowered". It's called a trade-off, and engineers have to do it all the time.

It should handle web apps, office apps, and basic entertainment just fine, so it is not underpowered in an absolute sense.

Also, LTE replacing private WiFi for sensitive corporate applications? In whose dreams?

A lot of corporate laptops already have cellular internet. The US government uses them on occasion too.

There's this thing called VPN which addresses insecure networks, and a laptop needs it anyway. No external network is safe, so VPN should be the norm even when laptops only had wifi and ethernet.

I can buy 2-3 refurb Thinkpad X-series for the same price.

I would consider one for entertainment while traveling, but I agree that the price is a bit high.

These should be priced comparable to Chromebooks. I expect they'll never reach the bottom of the Chromebook range since Windows is a more demanding OS, but $800 for a decent Windows unit is too high.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[rahvin112]

They are trying to compete with Chromebooks which has begun to totally dominate primary and secondary education. They will fail for the same reason Windows R bit the dust, it's not compatible with all the windows x86 applications and the number of windows ARM applications is non-existent.

People would be better off with a chromebook, after all now that Chromebook's have access to the full Google Play Android applications they can install word/excel on Chromebooks and have more than they could get on these stupid things.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[sirxpax]

it's not compatible with all the windows x86 applications and the number of windows ARM applications is non-existent.

Did you read the linked article at all? You must've missed the part about the WoW being extended to provide x86 emulation on ARM. Most existing Windows apps will run on it, and the emulation will be refined as they have more real-world examples of what works and what doesn't.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[sirxpax]

Also, LTE replacing private WiFi for sensitive corporate applications? In whose dreams?

Why do you think it's replacing WiFi? The article clearly states;

Always Connected is the branding for PCs that include built-in gigabit LTE and WiFi; long battery life (in ARM devices' case, allegedly multiple days without a recharge); run Windows 10; and be thin, light and fanless.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[Bert64]

A laptop that's already underpowered, being forced to do emulation? How's that going to perform, and what's going to happen to battery life when you're running apps through emulation?
This is going to be a terrible user experience which will quickly earn a terrible reputation.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[Wrath0fb0b]

Also, LTE replacing private WiFi for sensitive corporate applications? In whose dreams?

Wait, it has LTE but will it not have WiFi?

I'd imagine that when both are available, WiFi is preferred over LTE.

Re: $599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[Zero__Kelvin]

I have an ASUS T-100-chi that was quite responsive running Windows 10. They only drawback was that it ran Windows 10, so I put Linux on it. It's an awesome setup for on the go frankly.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[ChunderDownunder]

I select a cafe based on the taste of the coffee, not on whether the establishment has free wifi.

(Sorry Starbucks, but your espresso is sub-par.)

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[theweatherelectric]

How's that going to perform

It performs well. The x86 compatibility layer is fast enough that x86 and ARM binaries run well together.

This is going to be a terrible user experience which will quickly earn a terrible reputation.

Doesn't seem to be. Maybe try it out first.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[luther349]

this has been our for years its just there phone os rebranded.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[rickb928]

I already VPN into the corp intranet, so WiFi or L:TE doesn't matter. And if I were doing SMB consluting I'd recommend they do the same, tunnel in and don't worry a moment about the conduit. Strongest affordable. Two-factor auth.

The network isn't the problem. It's always the problem, so you don;t ever, ever trust it, even your fancy black WiFi in your own living room.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[Anonymous Coward]

How about 32 hours on a laptop from 6 years ago?

That's the kind of laptop I'd want in a bunker.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[LostMyBeaver]

Apples to turquoise turtlenecks?

I think you're comparing a PC to a ... I have no idea what this is.

Let's make a better comparison. Let's compare this to a Motorola Galaxy... at least from a hardware perspective. How does this stack up? I guess the flash is less, but otherwise is there any actually different from a Samsung telephone? They're still making that huge iPad mini sized telephone right?

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[LostMyBeaver]

Battery life is ok on Intel hardware these days. The question is battery for performance. So, we're not doing much for Atom based laptops anymore. By now Intel has 20 hours nailed with that I'm almost sure.

The question is, if I sit down and start using this machine how slow is it? I use a Surface Book each day and plan to get a Surface Book 2 next month. Yes, it's top end model. I have high expectations from a laptop. Will this laptop be so slow that a Core i3 is fast?

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[Anonymous Coward]

> It performs well [youtube.com].

How can you tell that from a video? The time on the clock jumps around a lot. In their photoshop "running great" example has the clock change to 2:12:00 at 1:23 on the video, and 2:13:00 at 1:48. Unless they can cram one minute into 25 seconds, their demo is sped up 2.4x. Watch the video at less than half speed to get a better sense of its performance.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[thegarbz]

Also, LTE replacing private WiFi for sensitive corporate applications? In whose dreams?

Err, everyone's. That's a general industry move right now is to switch to LTE and come back into the office via VPN. Hell we did the same thing with our WiFi networks too, any connection to the WiFi was untrusted and you had to VPN into the network within the building. The move to LTE presents no worse security but has a massive improvement in mobility.

Unless your corporate network actually is just directly connected to WiFi in which case WTF are you thinking.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[fubarrr]

It has 52wh battery. It is ok, bur not much in comparison to XPC (60,) and latest Yogas (72 and more in 13 inch models)

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[omnichad]

This is the new Tandy Model 100. 20 hour battery life, limited hardware. It will be good for journalists or anyone who has a travel-heavy job and not a computing-heavy job.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[rahvin112]

I saw the claim of emulation, color me skeptical given Microsoft's past history with emulation. I'll wait until the actual user reports that call the emulation completely unworkable and worthless before I accept Microsofts claims as they've done this before several times then abandoned the product 6 months later because it's garbage. This is windows RT all over again.

Re:$599 for a 4GB RAM/16GB storage

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks better than RT but lolz at 1:10 - "Running video is always a true test of performance... as you can see, this trailer...., available in the Windows store, runs really smoothly..." [proceeds to show a movie with two slow zooms-ins with at least two huge hitches! haha, not inspiring confidence.

Dead on arrival

[jawtheshark]

Dead on arrival: Nobody wants this or needs this.

Re:Dead on arrival

[b0s0z0ku]

Maybe it will take off, but why make the entry-devices so cr@ppy? 4GB RAM/16 GB storage? Are they trying to ram clown storage down users' throats or are they just going for a bad user experience for entry users?

We've been down this road with Windows 8 RT (wRetched Turd).

Re:Dead on arrival

[Anonymous Coward]

With x86 dying, MS and everybody needs this.

Re:Dead on arrival

[Anonymous Coward]

http://dilbert.com/strip/2011-03-12

Re:Dead on arrival

[swb]

My guess is that they coordinate this with further removal of end-user control/subscription/etc on the desktop side of Win 10.

This will make crapware disposable Arm Win10 machines palatable to most people when the alternative is paying Intel prices for basically the same OS experience.

It's also likely targeted at the education market and other similar ones that have taken up Chromebooks.

Re:Dead on arrival

[sirxpax]

With x86 dying, MS and everybody needs this.

x86 isn't dying. But you're right, MS and everybody needs this. The truly ironic part is that Apple already has it's OS running on ARM, and yet Microsoft is going to beat them to the punch on ARM-powered notebooks. (Yes, Chromebooks technically were already there, but this is the first mainstream, general-purpose OS.)

With cheap ARM-powered notebooks with a 20+ hour battery life, this is definitely going to shake things up.

Re:Dead on arrival

[Anonymous Coward]

clown storage

This. My 11" Atom tablet shipped with 32GB and after I only put a few ebooks on it, it didn't have enough space for the 8.5GB or so file it needed to upgrade to Fall Creator's Edition or whatever the hell it's called. I had to put in an SD card and move my ebooks and the Windows temp folder to it just to free up enough space for a required update.

Re: Dead on arrival

[Miamicanes]

ARM is only cheap & power-saving if you use it for undemanding uses on its own terms. An ARM that's beefed up to specs genuinely comparable to a desktop i7 uses as much power as (and usually costs a LOT more than) an actual i7.

Intel architecture is more efficient (behind the scenes, where it's REALLY executing RISC microcode PRETENDING to be x86) than many give it credit for. And x86/AMD64 and Windows have literally DECADES of mutual optimization for each other. It's going to be a very, very long time (if ever) before ARM's best can truly equal (let alone, outdo) Intel's best when it comes to Windows.

Re: Dead on arrival

[Anonymous Coward]

If you exclude google and apples os what other mainstream general purpose os is there?

This is actually pretty big.

[Chameleon Man]

If they can get it on ARM and ensure native applications function bug free, then they might be able to have a true "single device" usable as phone and desktop. Currently, the Windows 10 phones that can be docked offers a watered down version of Win10 that just feels like you're looking at a phone screen on a desktop monitor. I've been waiting for this for a while.

Re:This is actually pretty big.

[b0s0z0ku]

The problem isn't screen design.

It's things like Microsoft accounts tied to your PERSONAL computer's login, cloud storage on Microsoft's servers (vs storage YOU control), random UX changes, and telemetry being rammed down your raw esophagus. Or at least Microsoft trying to annoy you and nudge you into using that junk.

Re:This is actually pretty big.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is not a chance in hell they can get native applications to function "bug free". Even if they limited themselves to software written since Windows XP, that's 10 years worth of software running ActiveX components, random DLLs, random versions of .NET, random shell extensions, random services like versions of MS SQL server, random mini drivers, random games hammering DirectX, OpenGL and god knows what else. And in 32-bit and 64-bit variations.

At best there will be a huge list of caveats - we don't run this, we can't run that. This runs in compatibility mode. This crashes. This bluescreens.

It'll be a bloody mess. And even if software does run, it'll run like molasses because it will be emulated partly in software.

Given that this WILL be the reality, what the fuck is the point? These devices aren't even cheap. Jesus Christ, a bottom of the line $199 laptop has double the storage of these things. I'm amazed if anyone has a couple of gigs to install anything. Maybe that's their plan to stop people installing code that won't run - don't give them any space to do it, problem solved.

Re: This is actually pretty big.

[Zero__Kelvin]

That's the same problem any computer running Windows has, which is easily solved by putting a real OS on it.

Re:This is actually pretty big.

[rickb928]

Windows kernel everywhere is the goal. Your PC, phone, tablet, eventually TV, watch, car.

Re:This is actually pretty big.

[bazorg]

I'm happily doing that with both Windows and Android devices and it hasn't killed me yet.

Not Windows RT?

[jfdavis668]

They are providing the venders Windows 10S, which only runs apps from the app store. It is running on ARM processors. Isn't this just RT with the possibility of running emulated regular Windows applications?

Re:Not Windows RT?

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed... but if the price is right, I think this could be a winner. (if this is seen as a iPad-class device? Release it for less cost than an iPad and no keyboard, and you might have something.)

But, Microsoft need to start eating their own damn dog-food. Why someone in Microsoft isn't demanding every group release their applications to the store is beyond me. (Server side stuff I understand, but there's no reason SQL Server Management Studio or Visual Studio Code isn't released to the store, and obviously the Microsoft Office suite.)

And they need to promise the API will hang around - nobody really trusts them that it will after WPF and Silverlight were killed. I still believe if they'd add a Windows Phone 7 application 'environment' to Windows 10, the number of apps in the store would more than triple. (Heck, OneDrive has migrated to using QT (!!) of all things! That shows you how distrustful parts of Microsoft are over other parts of Microsoft.)

Windows 10

[Anonymous Coward]

Do it still spy on you?

Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always wanted a version of Windows that runs a subset of my Windows software and at a snail's pace! And all for the bargain price of $599 running on a gimped laptop that doesn't even compete with one costing half as much.

Re:Awesome!

[b0s0z0ku]

Exactly, this is equivalent to a much cheaper Chromebook.

will all the corrupted public 'servants'

[Anonymous Coward]

& both other people who still use windose, please raise your mouses or just smile & wave...? whoa, you still think no one of consequence is watching? pathetic at best... cease fire stand down while there's still time/stuff/people to rescue.... spirits to restore... in the moms we trust...

Pricing is not available

[93 Escort Wagon]

Nor is the weight or thickness of these laptop models.

Whoa, stop your grinnin

[Anonymous Coward]

hey the retched turd is really making 2017 the year of the Linux ARM device

Quality control

[Anonymous Coward]

20 hour battery doesn't count for much when the laptop only works 50% of the time with good old HP quality.

Mandatory SecureBoot, or alternate OS capable?

[Anonymous Coward]

Given that it is Qualcomm and thus Adreno, if it doesn't have a really fascist bootloader, I would certainly consider this for my next notebook.

GBE+Linux supported graphics+20 hour battery? Yes Please!

I would prefer a version without a touch screen however.

Re:Mandatory SecureBoot, or alternate OS capable?

[b0s0z0ku]

You can probably turn touch off. Judging by experience with Windows RT (wRetched Turd) machines, bootloader will probably be locked to Microsoft's junkware.

Connected?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Always Connected PC" = always being spied on PC.

How negative can you get?

[dhaen]

Where I work, if it isn't HP and Microsoft, it's not a computer (for which I disagree). Looking at the posts it seems that Slashdot commentators think that if it's not Intel and Microsoft, it's doomed. I'll stick to Unix on ARM, thank you.

Oh, and hasn't Apple made a roaring profit (=success) of ARM (iPads) for the last few years? Why shouldn't Microsoft?

Re:How negative can you get?

[gtall]

"Why shouldn't Microsoft?" Because Microsoft is incapable of doing it without screwing it up?

So long lin-sux!

[Anonymous Coward]

With this, Windows completes the range of device support necessary to dump lin-shit-sux from my life forever.

The slippery sloooooope

[OpenSourced]

Microsoft and Qualcomm are showing off the first Windows 10 on ARM devices, which provide Win32 app compatibility via emulation.

I think that's kind of a slippery slope for Microsoft. Probably not many Windows programs are going to be ported to Win10 ARM. So you get people used to work with most programs in emulation and then you find that they substitute Windows10 + emulator by Android + emulator, or iOS + emulator. I see in the future a Microsoft vs. Apple/Google lawsuit where Microsoft claims, Oracle-style, copyright over the Win32 API.

However, seeing the docking stations of Samsumg last models, that can turn the mobile into a sort of desktop, perhaps that was their only option, who knows.

Re:The slippery sloooooope

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably not many Windows programs are going to be ported to Win10 ARM.

Thankfully, the Netflix W10 App is actually JavaScript/UWP so it's already 'native' on ARM.. But yeah, the windiv (windows division) in Microsoft being insanely C++ / x86 first have ##### ed it up in their arrogance, pushing native x86 code.

The devdiv (developer division) within Microsoft was always pushing .Net and other higher-level views so ARM/x86 doesn't matter, it's JIT'd for whatever platform it's actually on. .Net and Javascript UWP apps should be full speed on any processor. So, in theory, apps are okay because the big push for this from the developer division - but in reality, there was so much resistance and want of x86, especially from the Windows division...

Prediction!

[Gravis Zero]

The invisible hand of the free market is going to give them the finger... again. ;)

x86 emulation layer

[twdorris]

As odd as it might sound, the coolest part of this to me is the work put into the emulation layer... I've probably been living under a rock in this area, though. Are good, working, fast x86 Win32 emulators for ARM processors so commonplace these days that the feature doesn't even get a mention in the summary?

Re:x86 emulation layer

[b0s0z0ku]

Can it be ported/repurposed to run Windows applications under desktop Linux on ARM? :)

Re:x86 emulation layer

[twdorris]

Presumably not since I'm sure it relies heavily on the WoW system to work. But that native x86->ARM instruction set layer just seems pretty cool to me.

Re:x86 emulation layer

[caseih]

CPU emulation has been with us for a while. Typically you can get up to 1/3 performance doing dynamic translation of instructions. I used to do this years ago on my G4 PowerBook. I used a PPC Linux distro, but had the Qemu system emulation working. Unlike full machine emulation, system emulation emulates the instructions, while passing Linux kernel calls on to the real, native, kernel. The result is that applications run fairly. In fact I used to run the x86 adobe flash plugin in my PPC firefox (don't ask me why... I can't remember).

I'm pretty sure MS has had something similar working for Windows for some time now.

As to whether it would help on Linux, perhaps replacing Wine, the answer is no, since windows kernel calls are passed on to the native kernel.

Re:x86 emulation layer

[twdorris]

Typically you can get up to 1/3 performance doing dynamic translation of instructions.

Yeah, I guess that's the part that surprises me most about this. It's already an underpowered system running straight ARM stuff. So I'm thinking they put some extra cool, highly-optimized translation layer in this to get it working acceptably.

Of course, my assumption that it works "acceptably" could be wrong too...

Re:x86 emulation layer

[imgod2u]

The issue with emulation across processor architectures isn't so much the instructions with a 1-to-1 (or 1-to-n) mapping. That's easy enough to substitute (even keep a small software cache of, so you don't need to repeat it).

The problem is the odd behaviors of each architecture. For example, ARM has a very relaxed memory ordering requirement for performance reasons. While x86 does total store ordering (all writes to memory are guaranteed to be ordered). Oftentimes, ARM processor designs rely on said ordering requirements (or lack thereof) to squeeze performance and perf/watt. If software has to enforce stricter memory ordering, it can have a relatively large impact on performance since the processor wasn't designed for that.

I don't know how much lead-time QCOM had in designing the 835 with Windows emulation in mind. But if they took an off-the-shelf, not-designed-for-emu processor, it's very possible multi-threading on this thing will suck balls.

And that's just one example of assumptions architectures make. There are many others.

Re:x86 emulation layer

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like they did three major things to simply/design things. One, they used the x86 on WOW layer to basically thunk a lot of the considerations of 32-bit code (and x86 ABI concerns). Two, they pre-compiled a collection of some/several x86 system dlls to use 32-bit data types to cut down on the WOW thunking. Three, they cache the translated 32-bit code to disk to avoid needless retranslating.

So, it heavily comes down to how much of your code can use the [effectively] pre-compiled system libraries vs translated ones and, of course, just how CPU intensive your program was in the first place. Without any actual benchmarks, though, I can't imagine the results are very good. I'd love to see a comparison though of an Intel CPU with Windows 10 vs an ARM with Windows 10 using 7zip (or the like) on similar sized batteries. Otherwise, I don't see the point.

Re:x86 emulation layer

[DrXym]

The situation for Apple was a little different because they basically killed the Motorola CPU product line so people had no choice to upgrade. But they also made the transition relatively painless with good emulation, "fat" binaries and a performance bump to incentivize people to shift over.

It's not even the first time for Windows has tried though either. Microsoft ported Windows NT to some other CPU architectures. The version for DEC Alpha had x86 instruction set emulation built into it. Not sure how well it ran, but clearly it didn't convince anybody to move off the x86 instruction set.

Even if it worked perfectly, there is little be gained for the majority of users from emulation. At best they get functioning but slow emulation. Windows software is so intractibly tied to x86 that as a precursor Microsoft really need to change their toolchains to target something like LLVM instead. Let people build an architecture neutral executable which is compiled on first invocation to the host architecture.

Spyware

[Anonymous Coward]

The spyware for ARM processors

Kind've Expensive

[Shogun37]

for a doorstop. Windows 10S? Seriously? Buy a reasonably good android tablet, plus a few battery packs. Less Big Brother, and if google annoys you too much, there are other options. Seems to be too much "ME TOO!" here.

store only and Edge engane only = fail

[Joe_Dragon]

store only and Edge engine only = fail

Recall macOS's transition from 68K to PPC to x86

[tepples]

A laptop that's already underpowered, being forced to do emulation?

Your phone is forced to do emulation whenever it visits a website containing JavaScript, or whenever it runs a PhoneGap app written in JavaScript, or whenever it runs an Android app written in Java.

How's that going to perform, and what's going to happen to battery life when you're running apps through emulation?

Probably about as well as 68000 emulation in Mac OS 7.5 and 8.x for PowerPC, or about as well as PowerPC emulation in Mac OS X 10.5 for Intel. The former was an interpretive 68LC040 emulator, and Connectix sold a replacement emulator called Speed Doubler that used dynamic recompilation. Apple eventually got its own dynarec going by the time the Power Macs switched to PCI. The latter was Rosetta, an outsourced dynarec. In both cases, syscalls were native, and apps that spent a lot of time inside syscalls saw little speed hit. Likewise, any calls from an emulated x86 application into the DLLs that implement Windows API will more than likely switch to native code.

"Always connected PC?"

[JohnFen]

Running Windows 10?

No. Just No.

Re:Recall macOS's transition from 68K to PPC to x8

[Anonymous Coward]

Your phone is forced to do emulation whenever it visits a website containing JavaScript, or whenever it runs a PhoneGap app written in JavaScript, or whenever it runs an Android app written in Java.

One, that's not emulation even if some of the fundamental principles* still apply. Two, this is why many websites and lots of apps run like ass on Android and should be avoided whenever possible.

Probably about as well as 68000 emulation in Mac OS 7.5 and 8.x for PowerPC, or about as well as PowerPC emulation in Mac OS X 10.5 for Intel.

That's a really bad example. In each case a more powerful CPU was emulating a slower CPU with steady evidence that future CPUs would be even faster and hence the idea was sound even if the current version was suspsect.

Likewise, any calls from an emulated x86 application into the DLLs that implement Windows API will more than likely switch to native code.

Their version is called CHPE and it's unclear how much of a performance boost this will be given it's unclear what percentage of x86 applications will use the system dlls much or how much overhead CHPEs include. Which leads to *. In any case, the overridding issue to me is simply how much CPU time is used in Windows 10 proper and the fact that ARM chips are still well underpowered to x86. Although I can see the use when you know your need is limited (like WINE).

* There's really a compounding overhead here, I think because in other sorts of things like javascript or even a Java app there's not an overhead of a whole system that is running on top. You're just dumping to a frame butter directly in many circumstances (for java) or otherwise modifying a page (in javascript) and most the rest is done native or in hardware. It's why CHPEs are so important but I still wonder how much legacy support is going to kill performance.

Re: Recall macOS's transition from 68K to PPC to x

[Anonymous Coward]

You cant compare x86 programs with javascript websites tepples you troll. X86 programs are far more complex and cpu intensive than websites especially for those x86 programs that are going to matter to people looking at windows on arm.

Re: Recall macOS's transition from 68K to PPC to x

[tepples]

Please cool it with the name calling.

X86 programs are far more complex and cpu intensive than websites

Have you seen what goes into modern adtech?

I've done sensitive corp stuff over LTE

[rsilvergun]

it's called a VPN. And you're refurbed Thinkpad might very well have come from my company. Companies want reliability and performance. They're pretty indifferent how they get it. Right now they get it by swapping out the laptop ever 3-4 years. Maybe changing to a CPU that doesn't run hotter than the sun and warp the mobo over time is a valid solution too. My company pays $1200 for it's laptops. $600 would be a bargain if it got us similar performance. And who knows, 4 GB might be plenty for an ARM.

Does it still nag for fucking updates?

[iamacat]

I would love a laptop with weekend battery life and always on LTE. But I am not willing to wait for half an hour when it decides to install the updates and I need to print out boarding passes for an upcoming flight. Somehow no other OS is as intrusive or slow at updating itself.

Hmm I don't know...

[rune2]

Because Windows RT went over sooo well! Remember that? This is basically the same thing. Windows 10S sounds a lot like Windows RT 2.0. Only Windows store apps and no backwards compatibility with older desktop Windows apps. Screw that!

Re:Hmm I don't know...

[theweatherelectric]

This is basically the same thing.

Except Windows 10 on ARM has x86 Win32 compatibility. That's a huge difference.

RT Part Deux, with deliberate blocking of Linux?

[edgedmurasame]

The first round of crippled devices didn't exactly go well, why should this be any better?

Why do they keep going back to ARM?

[Chas]

Seriously. How many times does the Win+ARM platform have to crash, burn, and explode shit all over everything in the area before Microsoft learns?

Didn't they take ENOUGH of a loss on their LAST attempt with the non-x86 Surface tablets?

Or are they just going to ship the losses to third-party manufacturers this time?

That'll only work once...

Microsoft on always on devices ...

[Big Bipper]

Spyware running 24/7. What's not to like about that ?