Slashdot Mirror
Judge Dismisses Lawsuit That Claims Google Paid Female Employees Less Than Male Colleagues (cnn.com)
A California judge has rejected a class action claim against Google for alleged gender inequity. In September, three female Google employees filed a lawsuit against Google, claiming the search giant "engaged in systemic and pervasive pay and promotion discrimination." They sought class action status on behalf of women who have worked at Google in California for the past four years. CNN reports: This week, a judge rejected their request to make the suit a class action. A judge ruled that the class was "overbroad," stating that it "does not purport to distinguish between female employees who may have valid claims against Google based upon its alleged conduct from those who do not." Jim Finberg, the lawyer representing the plaintiffs, said his clients plan to file an amended complaint seeking class action certification. He said it will address the court's ruling and make "clear that Google violates the California Equal Pay Act throughout California and throughout the class period by paying women less than men for substantially equal work in nearly every job classification."
it find a liberal judge.
It's been said before, companies do not systematically pay women less, if they did, they would only hire women.
The women will claim they were sexual assaulted in order to get even with Google. Anything and everything seems to constitute sexual assault these days. There are egregious examples like Harvey Weinstein, but much of this is about punishing men so women can take their places without having to earn it.
Seems like the new normal is cover the accusation as a scandal and don't cover the follow-up result. Good on Slashdot for keeping up. I hope this happens with the rest of the 'scandal' stories.
This may be interesting to watch. Individual cases of discrimination are often like any other case there is direct evidence, or not. Class actions tend to rely on statistics and that always reminds me of a certain university case.
In the university case, the primary evidence brought by the plaintiffs was that the school accepted a significantly higher percentage of male applicants than female applicants. That seemed pretty clear-cut. If the school admits 60% of male applicants and 45% of females, that looks a lot like there may be systematic discrimination against women.
The school pointed out that EVERY department admitted a higher percentage of women than men, however. When every department admits 60% of female applicants and 45% of men that looks a lot like systematically favoring women - discrimination against men.
Here's what had happened. The school had one department that was highly regarded, with competitive admissions. I don't recall offhand what the department was, so for the sake of this discussion let's call it the nursing school. It just so happened that the best department, the department with the most competitive admissions, was a department with mostly women applying. Most people who applied to the nursing school we're not accepted, and most people who applied to the nursing program were women.
Most male applicants applied to other, less competitive programs at the school.
Women had a BETTER chance of getting into the nursing program than men did. Every department admitted women at a higher rate, but the school as a whole rejected more females because their nursing program was that good - they rejected more nursing applicants than other majors.
The sad lesson for university administrators - if you don't want to be accused of discrimination, make sure the programs that women enjoy aren't your best programs, which will make admissions more competitive.
They sought class action status on behalf of women... A judge ruled that the class was overbroad,"
Ohhhhhh, I get it!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox#UC_Berkeley_gender_bias
Plus women just work fewer hours. I pulled our door badge logs a few months ago, and even with the report screwing-up and not counting men that worked more than 24 hours straight, men still worked about 106% longer hours than the women. IIRC, the average for women was 36 hours a week and 74 hours a week for the male engineers. Of course the women are going to make less.
Of course not. They also do not to read the article either: "Jim Finberg, the lawyer representing the plaintiffs, said his clients plan to file an amended complaint seeking class action certification." This is somewhat normal for lawsuits. The judge finds that they didn't quite meet the requirements and dismisses. The plaintiffs refile.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
... of reading the OP and concluding that the presiding Judge is in any way biased against the plaintiffs (the three female Google employees).
If anything, the exact opposite could be true.
The Judge will know that this case is going to be ferociously defended by Google, that it will garner a very great deal of public interest and scrutiny and that, if it gets as far as substantive rulings, could very well set a precedent and become case law that is cited in future disputes. In other words, the Judge simply can't afford to allow even a small chink or gap or flaw in the prosecution's argument, because to do so would be to invite the defendants to demand that the case be tossed.
Nor should you read the above statement and conclude that I believe the Judge to be inclined towards the plaintiffs in this case. The Judge will equally demand that the defendants are thorough and reasoned in their arguments.
This case has all the hallmarks of something that will be super-significant. The Court is simply making sure that both parties put their best legal foot forward.
Stop posting with your iOS device, it fucks up the '
If you want to adjust for whatever you think the value of diversity is, fine - if you're the boss and you think it'll help your team be more effective, cool.
ALSO recognize there are other effects, if you want to the best performance. At my last job, my department shared a wing of the building with the accounting department. The accounting department was mostly women, including the CFO. My department was mostly men. In my department, we socialized by "giving each shit" - basically insulting each other, as male friends and co-workers do. We enjoyed some competition and it helped us do a better job. My boss, who was female, got along well in the culture of our department too - a culture that followed traditionally masculine norms.
The accounting department, mostly females, functioned differently. They didn't "give each shit" to socialize, rather they complimented each other, including "where did you get those great shoes?" That worked for them. The department of women had a way of working together based on how women normally interact, and it worked well.
My current job was similar. We had a good team, who helped each other a lot. We were learning a lot from each other. Then our team was combined with a team from another country, with a different culture. That has made daily Scrums, code reviews, and generally getting things done MUCH harder because in their culture you don't criticize someone's work and you definitely don't ever ask for help. We have to be very careful about learning from each other now because if you point out a different way to do something, somebody is going to get offended - it's insulting, in their culture. Don't offer to help when you have free time and relevant expertise - that means you're implying they are stupid or incompetent. The other team may have been doing great work using whatever social norms they used, but forced diversity has a real cost to our team. Just before combining with the other team, we also hired a guy from another country, with another set of norms about how team members should interact. It makes things tricky. Part of my job is training my team mates on some things. It's really hard to train the one guy who comes from another culture, because I don't understand how to relate to him, how to approach him.
Diversity has some benefits, and it has some costs. My boss at the last job wasn't a girlie girl. She enjoyed "hanging out with the guys", so it was a natural fit. The soft, sensitive guy who worked in accounting with the ladies my have been a natural fit too. Forcing "diversity", especially one man on a team of women or one woman in a team of men has some costs. I never thought about gender when I hired but if I'm ever in a position where I *have* to think about, I'd much rather have a fully balanced team of four women and four men than have only one "odd man out" in a team where everyone else is the opposite gender or culture, leading to one person not fitting in with how the team works.
Just FYI, thinking back over who I've hired, I've hired probably 65% women, 35% men, mostly because I hired for people working under my direct daily supervision and I'm an alpha, dominate personality. In other words, there was no question I was the boss and the leader. A nice, caring boss maybe, but very much the boss. I generally want things to be done my way. At least, learn my way and start by doing it my way,
then make changes only after you fully understand how I do it and why I do it that way. On average, more women are comfortable working in that type of than men. Men *generally tend* to want roles with more autonomy than what I hired for. The men generally didn't stick around as long as the women.
Two bosses each have a budget of $1 million to hire people.
If it's true that their $1 million budget will hire either 8 men or 10 equally effective women*, any smart boss would hire the ten women. His department will be more productive and he'll get bonuses and promotions.
So it *is* his money, in the sense that it's his budget to spend on his team, and he'll be judged on the results.
There are some misogynistic manager, for sure. Maybe not many, but there are some. There are also other managers in the company, though, and other companies in the industry. Assuming the guy who mostly hires men is wrong, his department or company won't do as well as the other boss who hired those great women. The manager who hires the beer team will get the best results and will tend to get promoted, so high-ranking managers would tend to be people who selected the best employees.
* With the same salary, women cost a bit more. Women on average require more health care and that's why their insurance rates were 50% higher, on average. That was a direct cost to employers untill few years ago the law required insurers to ignore that fact and charge men and women the same. Maternity coverage is still optional in practice, though it's not supposed to be, as is mental health. That's a cost difference. The difference in medical issues also affects average time off, which is a cost to employers. Despite this, I've hired mostly women because more women are comfortable with the way I work. Men *typically* want more autonomy.
If they scream loudly enough and often enough about a non-existent problem - remember in almost all US megacorps, there is codified systemic employment bias against men - then we will forget about the real problems in the workplace.
Workers upset that wages are stagnant while cost of living is skyrocketing? "He looked at me the wrong way! Reeeeeeeeeee!"
Workers angry that their jobs are being offshored while executives sit back and collect handsome bonuses? "He said 'hi' to me, I feel harassed. Burn the witch! Reeeeeeeeeee!"
Workers demoralized because the entire management of the company went to the same three elitist private schools, and public school grads don't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting promoted? "Misogyny! Microaggressions! Literally Hitler! Reeeeeeeeeee!"
Some multi-nationals from America and Europe are able to take advantage of the situation by opening branches in Japan and hiring very competent women at bargain salaries
So it is self-correcting. Just not always in the most predictable ways.
Just FYI, thinking back over who I've hired, I've hired probably 65% women, 35% men, mostly because I hired for people working under my direct daily supervision and I'm an alpha, dominate personality. In other words, there was no question I was the boss and the leader. A nice, caring boss maybe, but very much the boss. I generally want things to be done my way. At least, learn my way and start by doing it my way, then make changes only after you fully understand how I do it and why I do it that way. On average, more women are comfortable working in that type of than men. Men *generally tend* to want roles with more autonomy than what I hired for. The men generally didn't stick around as long as the women.
Sounds like you wanted cogs, not professionals, treating the latter badly in the name of "alphaness."
However, your experience is similar to what military leaders have said. Women train more easily. They follow instruction. They conform. But when novelty is needed, a "stepping-up", or in a high-stress environment, squads with women under perform in nearly every category tested.
Being a professional also involves following directions and patterns from above (within reason). It's part of professional discipline (which many people confuse with being cogs.)
I can see exactly where the op is coming from. I've seen my share of fools who simply can't follow directions. My way-or-the-highway. I actually had to work with one like that just recently (a woman mind you). And a few years before, with another one, a man. In both cases, they were both utterly destructive to productivity.
Ask a person to implement you a tree backed by several hash indexes, and you get all types of variations (even though the concept is simple.) And many of them will be wrong. So as the number of team members increase, you need to start having some patterns of coding, testing, and collaboration.
That is, you need processes. And processes do not need to be perfect, and sometimes not even 100% correct. But you need them to know what the hell people are doing under your command (you can't improve you cannot measure, and you cannot measure what you cannot track.) Have several dozen programmers under your wing working in multiple projects, and you begin to see the need for standardization.
People confuse creativity (professional creativity) with individuality. Furthermore (and specially in the MaleNerdVerse), people confuse individuality with being an obstinate monkey wrench blocking the gears. Hell, people confuse the dynamics of working in isolated 5-dude teams and working in engineering/enterprise projects requiring dozens, if not hundreds of collaborators.
Professionals (grown up people who care about the craft behind their work), they recognize the need to balance creativity, individuality and being part of a team that follows particular directions and processes (the things that makes them "cogs".)
> Is it diversity, or is that other team just really shit?
That's a fair question. I charitably assume they don't suck, they just work *differently*.
> I don't think the Agile development methodology is related to any particular ... or cultural group
The Agile Manifesto, which basically defines Agile, is short and easy to read:
We are uncovering better ways of developing
software by doing it and helping others do it.
Through this work we have come to value:
Individuals and interactions over processes and tools
Working software over comprehensive documentation
Customer collaboration over contract negotiation
Responding to change over following a plan
That is, while there is value in the items on
the right, we value the items on the left more.
http://agilemanifesto.org/
The first and second sentences say it's about values (social / cultural.values) including helping others develop software. Agile is about "Individuals and interactions over processes". Everyone I've ever worked with from other cultures has said that the emphasis on individuality and de-emphasis on process is the #1 striking difference about US work culture. Other cultures don't put "individuals over processes" like that, the #1 characteristic of Agile is a very American characteristic. (Also a bit feminine - on average, females value "interactions" and "collaboration" than men typically do).
"Working software over comprehensive documentation"
"Whatever works" isn't a cultural thing?
"Customer collaboration over contract negotiation"
Collaboration vs negotiation is very much a cultural thing. Also, surveys show women in the US tend to very much dislike negotiation and prefer collaboration. Men tend to be much more comfortable with negotiation. This came up on Slashdot a few months ago.
"Responding to change over following a plan"
Again, being flexible versus following a plan is very much a cultural thing.
It seems to me Agile isn't just "related" to a culture, Agile IS a culture. California culture. It's not even a great fit for Texas culture, not to mention Pakistan or Colombia.
The two examples I gave from my original post were showing each other better ways to do things, and offering / getting help when someone has time available to help or someone is having a hard time with something.
In Texas, if you're broken down on the side of the road, most likely someone will stop to help within just a few minutes. If a native Texan is painting the inside of their house, there is a good chance friends are helping. That's Texas culture. Our team at work, in the Dallas office, had the same culture. In every morning scrum I say at least once "let me know how I can help". Whenever one person is done with "their" tasks, they then help with tasks others are working on. (Really all tasks are team tasks.) That's ALSO Agile culture, so we had a double portion of it.
Then we hired a guy from another country, with another culture, and soon after combined with a team from a third country. The guy who isn't from Texas was pretty mad when I offered to help. "Ray treats me like I'm an idiot and can't do anything", he thought. That's how his culture views things. What we Texans call "helpfully pointing out a more effective way of doing a certain thing" is called "criticism" in his culture, it's insulting and it's rude.
The team that joined us had cultural norms about "criticism" and asking for help similar to the new guy, but not the same. Very different from Texas norms of how you communicate and work together. What a diverse set of viewpoints on how teams are supposed to work together!
It's slightly frustrating for the whole team but I'm the designated trainer for several things. My *job* is to teach them better ways of doing things, and to help them. That's tricky when offering to show them something is considered insulting.