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Facial Recognition Algorithms -- Plus 1.8 Billion Photos -- Leads to 567 Arrests in China (scmp.com)

"Our machines can very easily recognise you among at least 2 billion people in a matter of seconds," says the chief executive and co-founder of Yitu. The South China Morning Post reports: Yitu's Dragonfly Eye generic portrait platform already has 1.8 billion photographs to work with: those logged in the national database and you, if you have visited China recently... 320 million of the photos have come from China's borders, including ports and airports, where pictures are taken of everyone who enters and leaves the country. According to Yitu, its platform is also in service with more than 20 provincial public security departments, and is used as part of more than 150 municipal public security systems across the country, and Dragonfly Eye has already proved its worth. On its very first day of operation on the Shanghai Metro, in January, the system identified a wanted man when he entered a station. After matching his face against the database, Dragonfly Eye sent his photo to a policeman, who made an arrest. In the following three months, 567 suspected lawbreakers were caught on the city's underground network. The system has also been hooked up to security cameras at various events; at the Qingdao International Beer Festival, for example, 22 wanted people were apprehended.

Whole cities in which the algorithms are working say they have seen a decrease in crime. According to Yitu, which says it gets its figures directly from the local authorities, since the system has been implemented, pickpocketing on Xiamen's city buses has fallen by 30 per cent; 500 criminal cases have been resolved by AI in Suzhou since June 2015; and police arrested nine suspects identified by algorithms during the 2016 G20 summit in Hangzhou. Dragonfly Eye has even identified the skull of a victim five years after his murder, in Zhejiang province.

The company's CEO says it's impossible for police to patrol large cities like Shanghai (population: 24,000,000) without using technology.

And one Chinese bank is already testing facial-recognition algorithms hoping to develop ATMs that let customers withdraw money just by showing their faces.

106 of 168 comments (clear)

  1. POI by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

    This is so 'Person of Interest'.

    --
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  2. And how many were false positives? by sehlat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think we all have an interest in that figure for the upcoming debates on implementing 1984 as an operations manual in this country.

    1. Re: And how many were false positives? by c6gunner · · Score: 2

      Why would that be relevant? People make false positives all the time, too, and presumably these are double-checked by the actual cops making the arrest, the prosecutor bringing the case, and the judge and jury involved in assessing his guilt.

      Sure, if China was flying drones which had free-fire authorisation to gun down anyone identified as a criminal, then false positives would be pretty damn important. But when they're just picking suspects out of a crowd for a human cop to arrest? I don't understand your concern.

    2. Re: And how many were false positives? by sehlat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How would it be relevant, you ask?

      Consider a day when you, an innocent citizen are walking down the street and a spotter camera identifies you as Criminal Name. The police pick you up with their gentle presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and haul you off to the local jail for processing. How long, if ever, before the police realize their mistake and release you? Meanwhile, you can't go to work and lose your job and because you were in jail, you also lost your apartment because you didn't pay the rent. During your time in jail, you are treated with warmth and respect by your fellow inmates.

      Look up a movie called "Blind Justice" a fact-based story about an innocent man who was mistaken for a serial rapist, and who endured a 14 month nightmare. Arrested for armed robbery, kidnapping and rape, he loses his wife and business, and then his REAL problems snowball.

      Do you need any MORE reasons to be concerned?

    3. Re: And how many were false positives? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Consider a day when you, an innocent citizen are walking down the street and a spotter camera identifies you as Criminal Name. The police pick you up with their gentle presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and haul you off to the local jail for processing.

      I don't have to imagine it; I've already experienced it. The only difference in my case was that I was ID'd by a gentle human who the gently hauled me off with his gentle presumption of innocence.

      How long, if ever, before the police realize their mistake and release you?

      In my case, about 2 hours. I suspect that this varies wildly across jurisdictions, but if you're worried about processing and hold times then that's a different discussion entirely.

      Meanwhile, you can't go to work and lose your job and because you were in jail, you also lost your apartment because you didn't pay the rent. During your time in jail, you are treated with warmth and respect by your fellow inmates.

      Again, these are so concerns about the criminal justice system, and have nothing whatsoever to do with facial recognition systems.

      Your entire next paragraph is more of the same.

      Do you need any MORE reasons to be concerned?

      It would be nice if you could give at least ONE reason why you're concerned about this technology specifically, rather than tangential factors.

    4. Re: And how many were false positives? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      One reason for concern:
      It makes it easier for police to do their work.

      Snap a picture of protesters. Run it through software, ID them, pick them up at home, or next time they go to a public place with facial recognition cameras.

      Police work should be difficult -- it helps make sure that cops concentrate on serious crimes, not going after protesters, "vice", or jaywalkers.

      A perfectly law-abiding, perfectly controlled society where everyone is shit-scared to go outside the norm will be extremely boring and sad.

    5. Re: And how many were false positives? by edittard · · Score: 1

      People make false positives all the time, too, and presumably these are double-checked by the actual cops making the arrest, the prosecutor bringing the case, and the judge and jury involved in assessing his guilt.

      *golf clap*
      Nice one. For a moment I thought you were serious.

      --
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    6. Re: And how many were false positives? by eluusive · · Score: 1

      I'm more concerned about it being done intentionally to people who are politically "dangerous." Think about all the political "criminals" that were thrown in gulags in Russia.

    7. Re: And how many were false positives? by eluusive · · Score: 2

      This technology doesn't cause the problem, but it certainly exacerbates it and grows the power of the people who are currently burning people.

    8. Re: And how many were false positives? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Now that's an interesting objection. I'm not sure whether to agree or disagree.

      On the one hand, it seems insanely perverse to suggest that we should waste money on intentionally making policing less efficient. It seems much more logical to make it harder for legislators to create stupid laws in the first place.

      On the other hand, people don't seem to really have the attention span and willpower needed to reign in the politicians, so maybe your solution is more practical.

      I've run out of hands, but if I had a third one I would point out that your concerns aren't really a solution either. If we can't stop politicians from creating stupid laws, we certainly can't stop them from rolling in this tech, either.

    9. Re: And how many were false positives? by sehlat · · Score: 2

      It would be nice if you could give at least ONE reason why you're concerned about this technology specifically, rather than tangential factors.

      It makes mistakes easier to justify and excuse.

      "Well, the system SAID he was Felonious Monk. We're sorry he died in custody, but we were just doing our jobs."

    10. Re: And how many were false positives? by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Why would that be relevant? People make false positives all the time, too

      A 1% false positive rate of a few dozen claims makes it rare, less than 1 per case.
      A 1% false positive rate of a few billion peoples photos makes it common, around 10 million people false positives per case.

      Why are you dumb?

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    11. Re: And how many were false positives? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      That's essentially what the US Bill of Rights was intended to be -- a limit on police powers. The concept has a long history.

    12. Re: And how many were false positives? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      How does this tech make that easier? Currently you can just get a cop to "ID" the guy you're gunning for. With this software you have to convince an IT guy to make the software ID the guy you're gunning for. I don't see the difference.

    13. Re: And how many were false positives? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      A 1% false positive rate of a few billion peoples photos makes it common, around 10 million people false positives per case.

      You better hire another 20 million cops to make all those arrests then.

      Why are you dumb?

      Because you're a victim of the Dunning Kruger effect.

    14. Re: And how many were false positives? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      The problem is once the cops go after the liquor store robbers, they'll start going after protesters and jaywalkers. Making their jobs harder limits the amount of idle hands available to be Satan's playthings. Fire 50% of the cops because their jobs are redundant due to increased efficiency? Doesn't work that way for parasites with powerful public employee unions behind them -- they'll figure out a way to lobby for new laws just to keep them relevant.

    15. Re: And how many were false positives? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      The problem is once the cops go after the liquor store robbers, they'll start going after protesters and jaywalkers. Making their jobs harder limits the amount of idle hands available to be Satan's playthings.

      Yeah that's what the other guy said. My answer is the same; it seems more rational to get rid of the stupid laws. And if you think that getting rid of stupid laws isn't possible, what makes you think it's possible to stop them from using this tech?

      Fire 50% of the cops because their jobs are redundant due to increased efficiency? Doesn't work that way for parasites with powerful public employee unions behind them -- they'll figure out a way to lobby for new laws just to keep them relevant.

      You don't even need to fire them if you think it would be a problem; you can transition them to "community policing". Walk around, help out people, change tires, take kittens out of trees. Just hire fewer recruits and let attrition bring down the numbers over time.

      That's all assuming that this tech seriously lowers the need for police, which is unlikely. A computer picking out known felons in a crowd isn't going to have any effect on the vast majority of what cops do. You can't send a camera to deal with a robbery in progress, or a domestic dispute, or an accident scene.

    16. Re: And how many were false positives? by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      Noone ever goes after jaywalkers. Would you please stop with the drama?

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    17. Re: And how many were false positives? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      You need to keep in mind the way humans function. A skill set not utilized will diminish over time, while a skill set heavily utilized will improve, at least up to a certain point. Maybe you'll catch more jaywalkers, but more murderers will likely walk free because the entire force is at a Barney Fife level of competence.

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    18. Re: And how many were false positives? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      We shoot people in the US for not wearing seatbelts.

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    19. Re: And how many were false positives? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 2

      For starters, if you are tracking someone with facial tech, you can find something that at least appears criminal with enough justification to bring them in. Follow someone around all day, and you can eventually find them doing something that you can jail them for.

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    20. Re: And how many were false positives? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      In New York and Boston, maybe. In Atlanta and Phoenix, people have been literally run down and tackled for jaywalking by cop trash.

    21. Re: And how many were false positives? by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Snap a picture of protesters.

      In the US, protesting is not illegal.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    22. Re: And how many were false positives? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      Effectively, it is. We jail people for felonies for tactics (like blocking streets) that are run-of-the-mill in more civilized countries like France. It's not a protest unless it causes a bit of discomfort -- people confined to "free speech zones" don't count.

    23. Re: And how many were false positives? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Neither is taking a picture in public.

      --
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    24. Re: And how many were false positives? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      And you can't do that by having undercover cops follow them around?

      Of course you can. So how does this make the problem worse? Are you worried that instead of using it for targeted persecution, they'll just arrest everyone? That ought to work well. Nothing says "economic growth" like locking up 90% of your population.

    25. Re: And how many were false positives? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because I fear the day that everyone has to be identifyable in public. I honestly don't know if this is an irrational fear, because the line between needing to trust people and give them information is balanced by what they could do with it to harm me, and that line is very grey and blurry.
      Should be identifyable in public? For example, should people be allowed to wear sunglasses, motorcycle helmets, masks or burkhas in public? How about a bank? I find the arguement for anonymity fails on this point the moment any crime takes place.
      Yet that arguement seems to also be the arguement against it. If you are put on the list for criminals for any possible reason, you are screwed. You can't even take the trash to the curb without being identified and recorded. The idea of a person running to an embassy to seek asylum is gone when you can spot and pick up People Of Interest immediately. The thought keeps coming up that if I was in a bad situation, I'd kind of like a fighting chance.
      Finally, what is a crime? How many laws do YOU break - even accidentily? Even being Mr Perfect, take a moment and think about how many laws that have had to have limits tacked on to tailor to the failings of people when actually used in court; how many laws are not obeyed/enforced because they are stupid; how many laws can't be obeyed because they conflict. Now put a machine in front of it that identifies every law broken and automatically hands out fines/charges.
      I see it. I fear it. I know it's coming eventually. I don't know how society will handle it - it is possible that it will make the world better. But I still fear it for the ways it could turn out, because of people.

    26. Re: And how many were false positives? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      (1) It doesn't work that way -- rather than firing cops or reducing numbers via retirement, their unions will just make sure that more things are criminalized to keep them relevant.
      (2) Windows 8, sure? IQ 80? Nah, they'd be more likely to be a danger to the public, like those yobs in Mesa who shot a man crawling in a corridor.
      (3) These laws exist to keep the low-information nanny staters, petty Puritans, and do-gooders happy. You can't entirely toss them, but you can make them harder to enforce.

    27. Re: And how many were false positives? by c6gunner · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Effectively, it is. We jail people for felonies for tactics (like blocking streets) that are run-of-the-mill in more civilized countries like France. It's not a protest unless it causes a bit of discomfort -- people confined to "free speech zones" don't count.

      Your right to protest does not trump my freedom of travel. If you and your goons want to hold me hostage by blocking my car on the highway, I'm fully in favour of the cops dragging your asses to jail. If you think it's "more civilized" to allow every pissed off asshat to disrupt the lives of thousands of people, you're insane.

    28. Re: And how many were false positives? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      The US already wastes a lot of money locking up 4x-5x the amount of people per capita (about 1% of adults) compared to the rest of the world. This is by design -- it keeps the rest of the people scared of stepping outside the lines.

      Possible sentences of 50+ years for being a journalist who filmed a protest but didn't damage property tend to do that to people. It also serves the purpose of selectively criminalizing certain ethnic groups and making it more difficult to find jobs (with criminal records) in future.

      Just an extension of Jim Crow, made for 2017 instead of 1957.

    29. Re: And how many were false positives? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      Yep, I'm insane and proud of it. Sometimes, people need to have the truth rubbed in their faces. If it causes you or anyone else a bit of inconvenience, too bad. Vote for people that will change the law so people won't have to block highways to make their point.

    30. Re: And how many were false positives? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Re: your McVeigh example, I'm not going to concede that terrorists are always wrong. Though McVeigh's cause was pretty irrational:

      We can thank "terrorists" for:
      (1) an Ireland free of British control
      (2) the State of Israel (the Irgun)
      (3) slowing down Nazi atrocities in Europe (the resistance movements were branded as "terrorists")
      (4) the American Revolution, for better or worse

      Ultimately, I'm against technology that makes it easier for governments to crush rebellion and civil unrest, because the two are sometimes good, proper, and necessary.

    31. Re: And how many were false positives? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      People have been harassed by American cops for "jaywalking" where the nearest crosswalk was 1/4 mile away and there was no traffic. Absolutely enforced rules are bad -- zero tolerance = zero brains.

    32. Re: And how many were false positives? by guruevi · · Score: 1

      The false positive is a lot lower to the point of being better than humans. Tip lines get a bunch of calls and are primarily false positives, the only way tip lines help is by using humans to further narrow down the false positives to likely positives and correlate with other data such as crime scenes, personal information and confirmed sightings.

      --
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    33. Re: And how many were false positives? by morethanapapercert · · Score: 1
      The problem is, using facial recognition makes it highly likely a person who is picked up on that basis will greatly resemble the actual criminal. There was a funny picture going around the Internet at one point of a black news anchorman having an uncanny resemblance to the police artist sketch of the suspect that was displayed in a picture in picture over the news persons shoulder.

      And while the police should know the limitations of the technology and just treat identified people as "persons of interest" rather than "suspects", human nature and the mindset that police work encourages means that in many many cases, the police are going to assume an accurate match. Leaving the hapless innocent party the burden of having to prove they are not the person in the crime scene image(s). A quick Google search for either fingerprint false positives and DNA false positives are possible and those are widely regarded as definitive proofs of identity. A good criminal trial, with proper legal representation, would be very careful to make sure the court took that possibility into consideration before making a finding of guilt. But nonetheless, people are wrongly convicted of crimes based on those sorts of evidence all the time.

      Thankfully; those wrongful convictions are fairly rare when expressed as a percentage of total convictions. Another quick Google search says that less than 5% of death penalty cases in the US involve a wrongful conviction. Without actually reading all the scholarly articles about wrongful convictions, I have no way of knowing how many wrongful, but later identified as wrongful convictions get corrected in time to save the persons life. Nor can I tell how many wrongful convictions never get identified as such and corrected. Even so, a 95% success rate seems quite good to me and proper value to the public at large.

      And the only reason it seems so likely to public perception is because a) The system doesn't end once the person is behind bars (at least, not in most major countries) There are always appeals and new trials based on new evidence. So a wrongfully convicted person can still get the matter corrected b) Release after a conviction has been over turned always gets into the news, unlike the vast majority of routine and correct convictions.

      Because of all that, my biggest concern wouldn't be individual false positives for cases of rape, robbery etc. My concern is for the potential for, as others here have said, making it far easier for authorities to do mass round ups of dissenters and protesters. It would only have to take a few high profile cases where protesters who also committed crimes got arrested this way before people will start to assume that all public protest will be logged and used against them. That would have a chilling effect on any future dissent. And I'm sure that any of us on Slashdot could list half a dozen countries off the top of our heads that have long standing policies of repressing its peoples and using violence to silence dissent. If one of those countries is wealthy enough to have cameras everywhere, or even just at major events of interest, they will install and use them. The only question an authoritarian government will really ponder is whether to scoop up its dissenters quietly so as to make only the other dissenters nervous or to make the capability and every arrest as a result as public as possible so as to deter and control everybody.

      --
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    34. Re: And how many were false positives? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

      And I'm sure that any of us on Slashdot could list half a dozen countries off the top of our heads that have long standing policies of repressing its peoples and using violence to silence dissent.

      The US tops this list going back to the strikes of the 1890s and 1920s and Red Scares, going through the Civil Rights era, the War on Drugs, free speech zones in political conventions, through journalists being faced with 50+ years in prison for covering anti-Trump protests today.

      Which side are you on?
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    35. Re: And how many were false positives? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      You should probably stop doing that. Or at least not brag about it in public, where a cop might see it.

    36. Re: And how many were false positives? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      We can thank "terrorists" for:
      (1) an Ireland free of British control
      (2) the State of Israel (the Irgun)
      (3) slowing down Nazi atrocities in Europe (the resistance movements were branded as "terrorists")
      (4) the American Revolution, for better or worse

      In none of these instances were the insurgents allowed to protest peacefully, nor were they able to change the system democratically

    37. Re: And how many were false positives? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "it keeps the rest of the people scared of stepping outside the lines."
      If people are so scared why are so many still breaking the law? People in places like Russia or China have been indoctrinated to expect harsh treatment at the hands of their government. The exact opposite is true in the US. In the US people are indoctrinated to expect their rights to be protected and thus are willing to press their rights to the maximum hoping any transgressions they commit can be resolved in their favor. Of course the rights enshrined in the US Constitution and Bill of Rights are still unrealized goals and not absolutes. "All men are created equal..." is still not true today. In the US you have the underlying judicial system available for recourse if you feel your rights have been violated. Add the press and you have all the support you need to protect yourself against the government encroaching on your rights. You will find no judicial system or free press in either China or Russia.

    38. Re: And how many were false positives? by Kjella · · Score: 2

      A 1% false positive rate of a few dozen claims makes it rare, less than 1 per case. A 1% false positive rate of a few billion peoples photos makes it common, around 10 million people false positives per case.

      Since the Chinese aren't big on privacy I'm guessing they'd pair it with cell phone location/call data and potentially other electronic traces. The last figures I found said 1.39 billion cell phone subscriptions to 1.38 billion people, so for the vast majority of people you already have their approximate location. So after you've eliminated all the very likely matches to a cell phone and excluded all the unlikely matches because they're somewhere else, made some reasonable assumption on how far anyone that's gone off the grid could have come then maybe you don't have all that many unaccounted for. Of course you could try to subvert this but then if a license plate reader, electronic ticket/payment or a good photo recognition detects that you're not where your cell phone is that's a big red flag.

      Checking if the people in your close proximity are also people you've been in electronic contact with is also very likely to narrow it down, like if the person standing next to you resembles a friend on Facebook it's probably him. Multiple encounters can also be seen in context, like if it appears you've met the same person several times you can accumulate exclusions. It's also possible that with a low quality recording you can sufficiently track an unknown person to a good camera based on clothing and such. Like we could only see you talking to a guy in a blue jacket from a distance, but he went to the subway station where we got a nice mug shot. There's lots of ways to make the base error rate not all that important.

      --
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    39. Re: And how many were false positives? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bull. I was given a jaywalking ticket (no cars were coming from either direction) by two cops who had nothing better to do. They were hiding off to the side of a cross-walk, turned in such a way that their uniforms were not visible under their jackets. As soon as someone would cross the road the would pop out and turn around and detain them while they wrote a jaywalking citation. Once they were done, they would hide themselves again and wait for the next unlucky person to come by. Once they can just mail every jaywalker a ticket like they do with red-light cameras, I have little doubt that some jurisdictions will see dollar signs and start doing so.

    40. Re: And how many were false positives? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The issues aren't dissimilar from ALPRs: rather than treating everyone in a nominal manner and allowing them to go about their day without hue of suspicion, the application of technology makes it easy to establish arbitrary search locations where everyone is examined and given a "pass or jail" grade.

    41. Re: And how many were false positives? by theweatherelectric · · Score: 1

      I don't have to imagine it; I've already experienced it.

      And another example of this is what happened to James Blake, professional tennis player.

    42. Re: And how many were false positives? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The situation is worse because instead of having to convince the cop on the beat that the target should be arrested, you only have to convince anyone with access to enter a charge into the system.

      The opportunity for corrupt arrests is magnified significantly

    43. Re: And how many were false positives? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Exactly, local cops in the US and the yokels that employ them are mostly money-grubbing filth.

    44. Re: And how many were false positives? by zantafio · · Score: 1

      You are probably a white man to believe that. https://www.washingtonpost.com...

    45. Re: And how many were false positives? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Which is why you should be suspicious of anything that makes the police's work easier. That door swings both ways.

      --
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    46. Re: And how many were false positives? by morethanapapercert · · Score: 1

      I think the problem in your examples, as in most cases, as that people in authority tend to conflate dissent as an attack on their authority and that any attack on their authority is also an attack against the nation. The problem becomes even worse and harder to combat when the dissent conflicts with the authority figures personal convictions.

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    47. Re: And how many were false positives? by Corbets · · Score: 1

      Have you *been* to France?

      I worked in Paris for 6 months, and more civilized it certainly is not.

      Then again, most French disassociate themselves from Paris anyway, I guess...

    48. Re: And how many were false positives? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Yes. I don't think civilization is totalitarianism.

    49. Re: And how many were false positives? by ixidor · · Score: 1

      this whole discussion now is that
      in front of them.
      will literally be everywhere

    50. Re: And how many were false positives? by haruchai · · Score: 1

      "We can all agree that a cop shouldn't be allowed to strip search you in the middle of the street just because you "look like you're up to no good""

      Yet it's done all the time. That was one of Eric Garner's beef with the cops, long before they strangled him to death.
      And here's a video of a police woman fingering TWO women at the side of the road, apparently without changing gloves

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    51. Re: And how many were false positives? by haruchai · · Score: 1

      Noone ever goes after jaywalkers. Would you please stop with the drama?

      Really? I've been ticketed for jaywalking in one city & for not stopping my bike at a T-stop intersection in a fucking rainstorm.in another.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    52. Re: And how many were false positives? by haruchai · · Score: 1

      We can thank "terrorists" for:
      (1) an Ireland free of British control
      (2) the State of Israel (the Irgun)
      (3) slowing down Nazi atrocities in Europe (the resistance movements were branded as "terrorists")
      (4) the American Revolution, for better or worse

      In none of these instances were the insurgents allowed to protest peacefully, nor were they able to change the system democratically

      Ireland had a Home Rule party that was gaining support & ground. However things took a turn for the worse with the outbreak of WW1 and the decision by Irish republicans to stage an uprising while Britain was deeply entangled in the war effort.
      That just wasn't ever going to end well.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    53. Re: And how many were false positives? by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Why would that be relevant? People make false positives all the time, too, and presumably these are double-checked by the actual cops making the arrest, the prosecutor bringing the case, and the judge and jury involved in assessing his guilt.

      Just because it happens says nothing about whether making it happen more is beneficial or not.

      There is an increase of documented cases of people are being harassed by LEAs and falsely imprisoned simply for being on losing end of the "birthday paradox" lottery. Instances of crazy unlikely coincidences are even starting to show up in DNA database searches.

      Hard to imagine all coincidences that would arise from automated large scale facial recognition systems.

      And when you lose the lottery prosecutors will assuredly correctly point out the impossible probability of coincidence for your case alone in a vacuum. It will most certainly be used against you even though in aggregate chance of the same impossible coincidence happening to x number of people within population is statistically assured.

    54. Re: And how many were false positives? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Not at all; you can already do that. How do you think warrants work? There are databases which list known fugitives, and police use those databases to figure out who to arrest. If you convince someone to enter a warrant into the system, they will be arrested the next time a cop pulls them over, or recognises them from the photo.

      Adding computerised facial recognition into the mix does nothing except decrease the amount of time it takes to locate the person you've targeted.

    55. Re: And how many were false positives? by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      First, you don't get to define "protesting" as blocking streets. That's "rioting."

      Second, "effective" != "is."

      ... people confined to "free speech zones" don't count.

      [citation needed]

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    56. Re: And how many were false positives? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Ok, then let me rephrase that. People who are oppressed should have the ability and right to riot when other avenues are exhausted. Riots are often a good thing.

      If there weren't "riots" in the 1960s, the Vietnam War may have dragged on for much longer. The ability to protest while causing inconvenience to the public is an important force for social change.

      And if the Tiananmen Square protests had spread and succeeded, maybe China wouldn't be in the authoritarian mess that it is in right now.

    57. Re: And how many were false positives? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      better yet, keep the pigs too powerless to enforce such things.

    58. Re: And how many were false positives? by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      People who are oppressed should have the ability and right to riot when other avenues are exhausted.

      When rioting fails, what other "rights," should kick in?

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    59. Re: And how many were false positives? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      I tried explaining to you why you're wrong, and it didn't work, so now please give me your address so that I and anyone else who thinks you're wrong can come over to your house and exercise our right to riot.

      Thanks in advance.

    60. Re: And how many were false positives? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      See, that's superficially a very reasonable argument, but aren't you looking at the wrong problem?

      The actual problem is "we have a lot of false positives" combined with "people don't understand statistics very well". And your solution is "we shouldn't look so hard"?

      Wouldn't the better solution be to work on improving accuracy while simultaneously working to improve the ability of our justice system to weed out and reject the remaining false positives?

      To me your argument sounds a lot like saying "well a lot of drivers get killed in accidents, therefore we shouldn't put more cars on the road". I mean, sure, that's one way to address the problem, but it's pretty ass backwards.

    61. Re: And how many were false positives? by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

      ... can't go to work and lose your job and because you were in jail...

      Uh, this is illegal, so no.

    62. Re: And how many were false positives? by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      See, that's superficially a very reasonable argument, but aren't you looking at the wrong problem?

      The actual problem is "we have a lot of false positives" combined with "people don't understand statistics very well". And your solution is "we shouldn't look so hard"?

      Wouldn't the better solution be to work on improving accuracy while simultaneously working to improve the ability of our justice system to weed out and reject the remaining false positives?

      To me your argument sounds a lot like saying "well a lot of drivers get killed in accidents, therefore we shouldn't put more cars on the road". I mean, sure, that's one way to address the problem, but it's pretty ass backwards.

      I understand the argument. I just don't believe it to be reasonable to achieve. Simply deploying technology is easy. Changing fundamental dynamics of legal systems is not. "Simultaneously" in my opinion is a wish that stands no chance of being achieved.

      There is a difference between philosophy - the world we want and the world we actually have. We all have to live in the context of our time like it or not.

  3. REAL SCARY. by WolfgangVL · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The end is near.

    --
    You are being ripped off every second of every day, so that advertisers can help rip you off even more tomorrow.
  4. Fair Warning to The World. by Templer421 · · Score: 1

    DON'T let your picture ever hit the internet.

    1. Re:Fair Warning to The World. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As soon as you pass the border checkpoint, they will just scan your passport and have your name,DOB and photo.

    2. Re:Fair Warning to The World. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      DON'T let your picture ever hit the internet.

      Impossible for most normal people. Unless you're the type who never leaves your basement, other people will take your photo and upload it to the internet. Everyone now has a portable digital camera and uses it a lot, for some people upward of a hundred times a day. Those photos get uploaded and often tagged. Even if not tagged, FB-like algorithms can work out who the people are from other inferences about social graphs.

      Point is YOU don't have to upload your photo for it to "hit the internet". You don't really have much choice about that, unless you have no social life whatsoever.

    3. Re:Fair Warning to The World. by jittles · · Score: 1

      As soon as you pass the border checkpoint, they will just scan your passport and have your name,DOB and photo.

      China takes a picture of you as you enter and leave. That is in addition to the picture they make you submit with your visa application. One trip to China means they have at least 3 pictures of you. Also, US takes a picture of you as you enter now, too.

    4. Re:Fair Warning to The World. by antdude · · Score: 1

      TOO late!

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
    5. Re:Fair Warning to The World. by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding? if you've been out in public, your face is almost definitely somewhere on the internet. Security cameras store to the cloud. Dumbasses taking selfies as you walk by automatically upload every photo to the internet.

      Have you walked past or used an ATM? Your picture is probably on the internet. Have you ever gone to a bar or restaurant? If not from a security camera discretely placed in there, there's a very good chance that some dumbass posting their dinner to instragram caught you in their picture, or snapchatted a selfie to their friend with you in the background. Have you gone into any major chain store? Congratulations, your photo is now on the internet, from all of the angles.

      It's unavoidable if you participate in modern life to any meaningful extent.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
  5. The Future is here! by McFortner · · Score: 2

    Chinese tested, Big Brother approved! Double-plus good!

    --
    Beware of Sales Reps bearing gifts.
  6. How long will it take by no-body · · Score: 2

    until it is implemented in "other countries" - like the USA - just for your security. Running around with a face mask will make you even more suspect.
    Looks like a high %ige of current population will support it as well - fear for crack-pots blowing up surroundings etc. and the bad people (rapists, criminals, gang members) coming into this country...

    It all works out just fine.

    1. Re:How long will it take by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 2

      until it is implemented in "other countries" - like the USA - just for your security.

      Oh, you can be fairly certain that this is used in the US already.

      We'll just have to wait for the release of Wikileaks Vault 11 for confirmation.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  7. Wow by dcollins117 · · Score: 3, Funny

    This is really impressive considering they all look alike.

    1. Re:Wow by arth1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I see that you got modded flamebait, but it appears to be true that members of ethnic groups that a person does not have much to do with do appear to "look alike". Our built-in facial recognition system appears to become fine-tuned to work with the faces that surround us, and is less efficient at other facial types.
      So for someone who hardly ever meet different ethnic Chinese, distinguishing the faces of Chinese can indeed be hard. And I'm sure the opposite is true too - to a Chinese who has not seen or met many Westerners, they may have a hard time telling them apart, unless there are severe differences like "beard vs shaven", "black vs white" or visible deformities.
      Likewise, it appears to be harder to estimate the age of people from ethnic groups one is unfamiliar with.

      This might be an opportunity.for facial recognition to assist us, throwing up the name, age and some short info on people when it can be determined. It might even help some people tell Bill Murray and Tom Hanks apart.

    2. Re:Wow by phayes · · Score: 1

      Let the truth be known at last!

      Tom Hanks and Bill Murray are, in fact _the_same_person!!!

      --
      Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
    3. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > Tom Hanks and Bill Murray are, in fact _the_same_person!!!

      Man, that must suck! Waking up at exactly 6.00am on exactly the same damn island... :-o

  8. In unrelated news by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

    It turns out Apple's face recognition can't tell Chinese people apart

    https://www.theinquirer.net/in...

    --
    echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    1. Re:In unrelated news by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      Apple says that one in a million random people can unlock your phone with their face. The woman in the article may work with say 50 colleagues. If you take 20,000 women like her, then you can expect one to have a colleague who looks similar enough .

      So what you are saying is nothing more than the usual slashdot bullshit. Someone found two women in China who were similar enough. Big news.

    2. Re:In unrelated news by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      No! It shows Apple Corporation are saying all Chinese people look alike to them.

      Which makes them RACISTS!

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  9. It is probably much less than what it seems by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

    One thing is using face recognition under well-delimited conditions like what is being described at the top of the linked article (you look at a camera very closely to enter the building); but a completely different story is recognising random people in random situations with random training information (or have the Chinese authorities hundreds of pictures of every person from different angles?). Perhaps they aren't completely lying, but the real performance of this system is likely to be different than what the article and these numbers seem to indicate. It might be somehow helpful, but lots of mis-recognitions and relevant human intervention are likely to happen.

    DISCLAIMER: I am not specially concerned about (face-recognition) tracking and privacy, although I see all this as potential threads to citizens and expect legislations to gradually restrict all the actions on these lines.

    DISCLAIMER 2: I am not Chinese, don't live in China, the Chinese government shouldn't have any information about me and I look quite different than most of Chinese people. In fact, that system shouldn't have too many troubles to identify me for these and other reasons.

    --
    Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
    1. Re:It is probably much less than what it seems by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

      You can deter a lot of crime by just making criminals believe you can easily catch them.

      Very good point. This is probably the main motivation behind this system and all the associated publicity.

      --
      Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
  10. Re:Good way to catch criminsls by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    No: the US should be concentrating on reducing the number of crimes first. Traveling with cash, possessing politically incorrect plant products, having a beer in a park, or sex between consenting adults (for money or for free) should never be illegal. The US keeping 1% of its adults incarcerated is a disgrace. No need to make this job easier for the thugs that enforce the laws.

  11. Re: Good way to catch criminsls by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Actually, I think hindering technology based on policy needs can be a VERY good idea -- sometimes society is not ready for a technology. Just because we CAN, doesn't mean we SHOULD. One of the driving forces towards criminal justice reform after 2009 was the cost of policing and incarceration. Change that equation, and reform stops.

    Same with self-driving cars -- they have the potential to be a privacy and surveillance nightmare.

  12. The bad news? by bobstreo · · Score: 1

    Facebook has way more than 1,8 Billion photos that many people are more than happy to tag with identities. I checked and something like 300 million photos a day. Of course they're not all people, but I'd guess there are plenty of them.

    Odds are high that the photos, EXIF information and tags/names have probably already been sold to "various agencies"

    1. Re:The bad news? by mspohr · · Score: 1

      I recently tried to log into Facebook to try to delete my account since I haven't used it for years. They made me go through a series of photos and name people in the photos. Each page of photos had 3 or 4 separate photos who were all supposed to be the same person for me to identify. Unfortunately, most of the time, the people in the photos were different... very different... children and dogs or completely different people (often of different sexes).
      Complete fail. I wasn't able to log in. No loss.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
  13. Cause and effect ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    ... photos don't create criminals.

    BOLO is a thing whether it works at a snail's pace or the speed of light

    Facial recognition is not the same as fingerprinting or DNA, but it's pretty damned close.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    1. Re:Cause and effect ... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Problem comes when you're able to automatically or semi-automatically ID anyone committing any sort of transgression (jaywalking, public smoking, etc) and send fines. Also, make a map of people's movements -- right now, someone who wants to stay anonymous simply leaves the phone at home.

      BOLO is used for serious crimes. Being able to ID people committing minor offenses will lead to a boring, rigid society, as well as being a boon for rapacious governments.

    2. Re:Cause and effect ... by ffkom · · Score: 1

      You should have mentioned that China is already set to implement just that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      And of course, what else would you expect from a country where there is no legal opposition?

    3. Re:Cause and effect ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      BOLO is used for serious crimes.

      Like the one we issued for an elderly man who left his home?

      Being able to ID people committing minor offenses ...

      Minor to whom?

      ... will lead to a boring, rigid society ...

      [citation needed]

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    4. Re:Cause and effect ... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Citation needed ... Singapore, which is painstakingly law-abiding vs NYC or Prague. One is Disneyland, the other two are more interesting to live in.

      Minor offenses? Things that shouldn't be crimes, except for the ideas of Puritan Christian, Muslim and/or Confucian killjoys.

    5. Re:Cause and effect ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      So no citation.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  14. Re:Pushing Lines by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    I wonder if there's legal remedy. If Bob's camera points into MY backyard, and sends video of it to a third party (say: Google), could I sue Bob for violating my privacy? Could I legally blind the camera with an IR emitter if a high fence isn't allowed or practical?

  15. =33 by h8sg8s · · Score: 1

    2017-1984=33. It just arrived in a different place and at a different time than Orwell envisioned.

    --
    Organization? You must be joking..
  16. Re:Not long. by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Fortunately, once you're in many of said countries, they're too corrupt to be terribly effective at policing. Customs might be somewhat effective, but once you're in, things are much looser than the US or China.

  17. Re:ATM breakage. by morethanapapercert · · Score: 1
    That's an easy question. If you're ugly enough for it to be a problem, your benevolent eugenics minded government will have had shotguns embedded in the ATMs for instant chlorine in the gene pool. It'll be sold to the public as deterring ATM fraud and outright theft of the machines themselves. And the "think of the children" crowd will support it because we'd be solving the problem of ugly people breeding children who are doomed to growing up ugly as well. You don't want your kids to get bullied at school do you? A shotgun to the face goes a long way to ensuring you don't have kids as ugly as you. And don't worry about surviving the shotgun to the face, since living after that would only leave you even uglier. The ATMs will just keep shooting you every time you go to one until one of them finishes the job.

    For the Poe's Law impaired, this is satire...christ I hope it *stays* as satire.......

    --
    I need a wheelchair van for my son. Help me get the word out. https://www.gofundme.com/wheelchair-van-for-jj
  18. Re:ATM breakage. by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Do you remember Space Quest ... the part with the slot machine with a laser that burned you to dust? I think it said "YOU LOSE, HOMEBOY!"

  19. Modern Efficient East Germany by stabiesoft · · Score: 1

    There was a movie a few years back detailing the history of East Germany and they had some people go thru the archives of what had been collected about them before the reunification. The chinese have just discovered a much more efficient way to collect data. It is already in the US to some extent with toll tags keeping track of many peoples movements and of course lots of cameras. I thought the US cameras were only reviewed on demand. I'm sure we will buy this from china and keep track of people like we do cars in no time.

  20. Re:How long... by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    The security services and police are doing this al over the world for parallel construction.
    The images of a driver, their passenger down a main road, cell phone collection, voice prints, front and back vehicle registration plate.
    Every illegal migrant could be caught in near real time but for some reason is not.

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  21. Re:Chinese were scouring german LinkedIn by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 1

    If you have anything on LinkedIn, it's quite possible the Chinese government has been collecting information about you,

    If that makes them happy, they can waste as much time and resources in accomplishing pretty much nothing of value as they wish. My public online activity is an open book for the Chinese government and for any other person/government. In fact, I do welcome everyone expecting to have any kind of interaction with me to know as much about me as possible. I have no relationship with Chinese anything, have never visited that country and am not planning to do it in the future either; so, collecting information about me seems quite pointless, but completely up to them.

    --
    Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
  22. Offenders asking for democracy will be arrested... by ffkom · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... as quickly and efficiently.

    Let's face it: The times when totalitarian regimes could be toppled by "the people" are over. The technology allowing even small groups in power to suppress all kinds of opposition is already available, it is getting "better" and more broadly deployed by the month, and it is there to stay.

    "Freedom" had its brief stint in human history, but in a few decades from now nobody will remember what it was. And given how parents today raise children used to permanent observation, the grownups by then will probably never have experienced freedom first and, and won't know what they are missing.

  23. Re:Offenders asking for democracy will be arrested by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let's face it: The times when totalitarian regimes could be toppled by "the people" are over.

    No, it just raises the threshold of rage required to do so. There's a point where people, including the police, stop giving a shit and turn out into the streets. Who will enforce the dictator's will if the police aren't even willing to and everything stops?

    It happened in Romania in 1989 -- Ceausescu got an unexpected Christmas present of lead and the people got freedom for Christmas.

  24. Birthday paradox by davecb · · Score: 1

    If I compare 25 people's birthdays to one another, I have a 50% chance of getting a match. That's because I compare one person with 25 others, another with 24, another with 23, and so on. That's with a 1:365 chance of sucess on a single trial (0.27%).

    Now try this with a few thousand "people of interest" out of 25 billion.

    --dave

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  25. Re:Offenders asking for democracy will be arrested by fox171171 · · Score: 1

    "Freedom" had its brief stint in human history, but in a few decades from now nobody will remember what it was. And given how parents today raise children used to permanent observation, the grownups by then will probably never have experienced freedom first and, and won't know what they are missing.

    TV is preparing kids for this future. Ever seen a show called "Special Agent Oso"? They have surveillance cameras in drones that look like ladybugs watching the children.

  26. Re:Offenders asking for democracy will be arrested by ffkom · · Score: 1

    Who will enforce the dictator's will if the police aren't even willing to and everything stops?

    If necessary, automated drones and (soon to become mandatory) implants will easily discipline (or eliminate) any member of the public service that dares to deviate from his supervisors will.

    And attempts to conspire (between the usually many distinct services a totalitarian regime sets up in order to make sure any one of them has to fear the others) will be detected before anyone could even convince a hand full of people to join his cause.

    But the fear of not being able to sustain a life if one's "social credit score" falls too low might even make the above unnecessary.