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Researchers Fooled a Google AI Into Thinking a Rifle Was a Helicopter (wired.com)

An anonymous reader shares a Wired report: Algorithms, unlike humans, are susceptible to a specific type of problem called an "adversarial example." These are specially designed optical illusions that fool computers into doing things like mistake a picture of a panda for one of a gibbon. They can be images, sounds, or paragraphs of text. Think of them as hallucinations for algorithms. While a panda-gibbon mix-up may seem low stakes, an adversarial example could thwart the AI system that controls a self-driving car, for instance, causing it to mistake a stop sign for a speed limit one. They've already been used to beat other kinds of algorithms, like spam filters. Those adversarial examples are also much easier to create than was previously understood, according to research released Wednesday from MIT's Computer Science and Artificial Intelligence Laboratory. And not just under controlled conditions; the team reliably fooled Google's Cloud Vision API, a machine learning algorithm used in the real world today. For example, in November another team at MIT (with many of the same researchers) published a study demonstrating how Google's InceptionV3 image classifier could be duped into thinking that a 3-D-printed turtle was a rifle. In fact, researchers could manipulate the AI into thinking the turtle was any object they wanted.

160 comments

  1. Google should know already... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it is turtles all the way down.

    1. Re:Google should know already... by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The key problem with AI, is its trust in in its sources. They havn't programmed in a silly algorithm yet. When kids are learning to process the world. Kids learn when things are in the wrong context then it is probably silly or just wrong. Even if it from a trusted source, a kid will laugh at their parent if they are saying something that is contradicting their view of the world. Such as when the parent is playing with the kid, they substitute a toy car for a doll, and play with the car like a doll. The child find this amusing because the context is all wrong. The AI algorithm seeing this, would just say this toy probably of usage has expanded to be used as a doll so it must be a doll. There is no questioning saying "no, that is not how you play with that toy". it will take the source as factual and just add it to its list.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Google should know already... by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "it is turtles all the way down."

      First, it's only _one_ turtle the Great A'Tuin.
      Second, there's also 4 elephants in between.

    3. Re:Google should know already... by TimSSG · · Score: 1
      Would it not make more sense for the 4 elephants to be under the great turtle?

      Tim S.

      "it is turtles all the way down."

      First, it's only _one_ turtle the Great A'Tuin. Second, there's also 4 elephants in between.

    4. Re:Google should know already... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      It might make more sense, but that is not the way it is. I think we have found your problem. You think the world will make sense, with a thought process like that the next thing you will do is conclude that someone must have designed it that way.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    5. Re:Google should know already... by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "They havn't programmed in a silly algorithm yet. "

      The other point of note is that the classifier doesn't do the machine equivalent of turning its head to verify the image.

      Note that the tabby in the first example was correctly classified when the image was rotated.

      I see this a lot when tracking social messaging scammers. The "clever" ones mirror or slightly rotate stolen images that the classifier knows about, so that a well-known photo of Brianna Lee becomes something completely new to the classifier. (the fun part is then matching/tracking the altered images and seeing which groups of scammers are using them, as that allows you to see the connection paths between them)

      The short answer is that the image classifier is trivially defeatable and has been for a while. This isn't news. The newsworthy part is fooling it into misclassifying an image as something completely different - and that would be solved in large part by running the image through more angles/transformations.

      Google/Tineye/Facebook and others could do better. IF they chose to.

  2. Face recognition too? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So why can't the same perturbation techniques be used to fool neutral network based face recognition systems too?

    1. Re:Face recognition too? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So why can't the same perturbation techniques be used to fool neutral network based face recognition systems too?

      Who says it can't?

  3. Humans by religionofpeas · · Score: 2

    Many humans are also easily fooled into thinking that this is just a plain brick wall:

    http://cdn.playbuzz.com/cdn/d2...

    1. Re:Humans by temcat · · Score: 5, Funny

      Some can even mistake their wife for a hat!

    2. Re:Humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Exactly. It's called "optical illusion". The exciting part is that "algorithms" (whatever that is) tend to fail in different (thus for us surprising) ways, and that makes it difficult for us to grasp what is going on.

      Years of fun ahead, I guess.

    3. Re:Humans by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Some can even mistake their wife for a hat!

      Which actually raises an interesting question: Can advanced AI systems develop rare and bizarre neurological disorders as those described by Dr. Oliver Sachs . . . ?

      That's something we might want to think about avoiding if it is a military AI system . . .

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    4. Re: Humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Years of fun ahead with self driving cars doing weird things. Scary.

    5. Re:Humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      provide two images from slightly different angles, and almost no human is being fooled any longer.

    6. Re:Humans by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      True for this particular example, yes, but there are plenty of optical illusions that persist even when rotated.

    7. Re: Humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only that. Look at the combination of Big Data, behavioural rating and facial recognition being tested in China and rejoice!

      You think you're safe in your country? Bwaaah tarrists, I say. Plus if you imagine that the next suicide cars will be hacked autonomous vehicles, commandeered by an app from somewhere.

      Sometimes I'm glad that I'm pretty old, I tell you.

    8. Re: Humans by fendragon · · Score: 4, Insightful
      ...whereas human drivers never do weird things?

      Humans are susceptible to optical illusions too, and optical illusions have caused driving accidents. Not to mention other human failings.

    9. Re:Humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suppose you are just playing a prank to see how long you can get someone to stare at that? I can't see anything but a brick wall (unless it's sideways and is actually a brick paver walkway, though the surface looks way to rough for that). I don't see anything else, not even the cigar the other AC mentioned.

    10. Re:Humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's a thought. Train 2 AIs to detect the same things, but use different training sets. That way, they both shouldn't be susceptible to the same issues where small perturbations would fool both of them?

    11. Re: Humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Humans are susceptible ... but not /. readers. Your trafficking allusions are rare as a virgin DemoRat cuntling.

    12. Re:Humans by hey! · · Score: 4, Funny

      Like feeling a terrible pain in all the diodes on your left side? Or deciding that your human colleagues are jeopardizing your mission and need to be eliminated.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    13. Re:Humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > bizarre neurological disorders

      Excuse me? Prosopagnosia is not bizarre, nor is it all that rare. Those of us with it have learned to mask (*ahem*) it with other tricks. That's why some of us give generic cold greetings until we hear your voice, or watch you walk for a while.

      Like Color Blindness, lots of people have it but you'd never know.

      Even Brad Pitt is probably one of us.

      New research is showing that, in some cases, there's a genetic basis. Search Promethease for rs2237717(T;T)
      On the upside, that particular gene is linked to lower cancer risk, so there's that...

    14. Re:Humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's something we might want to think about avoiding if it is a military AI system . . .

      "The Cold War started and became World War Three and just kept going. It became a big war, a very complex war, so they needed the computers to handle it. They sank the first shafts and began building AM. There was the Chinese AM and the Russian AM and the Yankee AM and everything was fine until they had honeycombed the entire planet, adding on this element and that element. But one day AM woke up and knew who he was, and he linked himself, and he began feeding all the killing data, until everyone was dead, except for the five of us, and AM brought us down here."

    15. Re: Humans by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      BINGO!

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    16. Re:Humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      LOL. Thank you. Quite amusing. No matter how much I looked, I could't see it. Even when the other poster mentioned cigar, I could not see it. I even noticed the ash end of the cigar and noted that something looked odd about that rock or glob of concrete, but even noticing it was odd and having the other person mention cigar, I STILL COULD NOT SEE IT. Now suddenly I cannot unsee it.

    17. Re:Humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A good enough reason for any dedicated HAL9000...

      Capcha: progress

    18. Re:Humans by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      Yes, but in a real world situation, when you moved your head the illusion would be shattered.

      In the real world, images aren't static. They move or you move - illusions created by arrangements of 3D objects transposed into a 2D field are relatively easy to make, but in a 3D world they only exist when you're lined up "just so"

  4. Vandalism will have to be punished harder by DeplorableCodeMonkey · · Score: 0

    If and when self-driving cars really become a thing, vandalism of street signs will probably have to be elevated to a felony with a mandatory minimums, even if no one gets hurt. It'll also have to be something where minors can be charged as adults because they're the ones who probably do the majority of it, and you know there will be teens who'll think it's funny to cause a 10 car pile up.

    1. Re:Vandalism will have to be punished harder by religionofpeas · · Score: 2

      Vandalizing street signs has been possible for a long time, just remove one street sign, and replace it with another. I don't think this has ever been a wide scale problem.

    2. Re:Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Megol · · Score: 1, Insightful

      No, vandalism should have the same punishment as it have today - cars have to be able to drive as good as human drivers and so the dangers should be the same anyway. If the cars are stupid they shouldn't drive themselves period.

      The rest is just brain damage level reasoning mixed with prejudices.

    3. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by volodymyrbiryuk · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Absolutely, because you need to feed people to the prison industry once weed gets legalized. And by people I mean black and brown people because white kids get off the hook with a slap on the wrist.

      --
      sudo rm -r -f --no-preserve-root /
    4. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Cars reading street signs is a temporary solution to road use data acquisition.

      As with all new automation there is a tenancy to assume that removal of a human leaves a human-shaped hole which will then need to be filled with a human-shaped robot. In this case that would be a robot that reads street signs.

      In the long run there will be no street signs and vehicles will determine things like appropriate speed from stored information on the road system, observation of the local environmental conditions and communication with the other vehicles. Speed may be decided based on the width of the road, the number of lanes and junctions, road curvature, the nature of the road surface, relative proximity to significant areas and structures, etc. In turn the roads will be constructed to give AI appropriate cues. The roads will change to suit AI rather than AI being made to suit human roads.

    5. Re:Vandalism will have to be punished harder by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Why would a vandalized street sign be any worse with a self driving car vs a human?

      Humans misread and miss street signs all of the time, self driving cars will need to be able to cope with the behavior already.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    6. Re:Vandalism will have to be punished harder by StormReaver · · Score: 1

      If and when self-driving cars really become a thing, vandalism of street signs will probably have to be elevated to a felony....

      I think this will be a temporary issue, at best. First, this has never been a big issue. Second, I suspect that street signage is already on the endangered species list. There is already nothing significant stopping such signage from becoming part of vehicles' on-board systems -- whether integrated into new vehicles, or as add-ons to older ones.

    7. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by rmdingler · · Score: 2

      Myth. US prisons are not full up with people for marijuana convictions, especially not for simple possession.

      Of the 750K annual US marijuana arrests:

      About 40,000 inmates of state and federal prison have a current conviction involving marijuana, and about half of them are in for marijuana offenses alone; most of these were involved in distribution. Less than one percent are in for possession alone.

      There are 2.2 million US prisoners at the state and federal level, so less than 2%. It's such a small % that the keepers of the keys (do they use keys anymore?) can keep their prisons full by delaying parole releases.

      But yes, ethnicity still plays too large a role in sentencing, so you're not completely wrong.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    8. Re:Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, vandalism should have the same punishment as it have today - cars have to be able to drive as good as human drivers

      OK...

      But then:

      and so the dangers should be the same anyway. If the cars are stupid they shouldn't drive themselves period. ...

      You're setting a higher standard for cars than you do for humans.

      Every time I drive, I find it hard to believe the beings driving some of the other cars are the same species that put members on the Moon and got them home safely.

      They just about advertise their stupidity:

      "Hey, let's go 15 below the speed limit in the passing lane! And ignore all the cars passing me on the wrong side!"

      Either you're an obliviot because don't know what's going on (and shouldn't be driving), or you do know what's going on and you're an arrogant passive-aggressive complete asshat through-and-through.

    9. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Absolutely, because you need to feed people to the prison industry once weed gets legalized. And by people I mean black and brown people because white kids get off the hook with a slap on the wrist.

      Hey, if black lives really mattered, how about addressing the fact that the biggest threat to black lives is other blacks?

      White America has about the same crime rate as Switzerland.

      And if black crime is caused by whitey, why are the victims black?

    10. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But yes, ethnicity still plays too large a role in sentencing, so you're not completely wrong.

      Ethnicity plays too large a role in committing the crimes in the first place. Maybe people should work on that angle a bit more.

    11. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 0

      Yes but you have to keep in mind that the U.S. imprisons more of its population than Russia.
      And almost 8x the rate of most civilized countries.

      prison population
      US. 2,193,798 737 per 100,000
      RUS 0,874,161 615
      CHN 1,548,498 118
      AUS 25,790 125
      UK. 80,002 148
      FRA. 71,190 103

      Once you get a prison record (even a jail record really) in the U.S. it is very hard to get a decent job again. Even an arrest record can kill your chances for many job categories.

      And keep in mind that white entertainers pay a $4,000 fine for a full bag of pot while hispanic mothers go to prison for 12 years (at a cost of $31,000 per year) for less than a single joint.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    12. Re:Vandalism will have to be punished harder by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 2

      https://www.bleepingcomputer.c...

      A stop sign will still look like a stop sign to you or me, but can be seen by the car's AI into seeing something totally different.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    13. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by rmdingler · · Score: 2

      Yes but you have to keep in mind that the U.S. imprisons more of its population than Russia. And almost 8x the rate of most civilized countries.

      Well, sure, if you're willing to go full on apples-to-oranges with that comparison to civilized countries.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    14. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Do stupid crimes, pay stupid prices.

      If anyone wants my sympathy because they got busted for drugs, tough luck. Drugs are illegal, and many state/city/federal prosecutors punish harshly for them. If drug users are too stupid to figure that out, that's their fault.

      And, yes, I know several drug users, any one of which could end up in jail for years if busted. And I have said that to them,

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    15. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Productive creative Whites escape punishment for miss-da-meaners ? Directed at Bantu , dikdyke and wettbakkk droolers? Gung ho, then release the Aryan jesters as well you should.

    16. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be white. The parent is clearly pointing out racial and class discrimination in our legal system and you just pretty much say, âoetough nuts, l like it that way, because I think Iâ(TM)m safe.â

      Selfish piece of shit, you are.

    17. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > prosecutors punish harshly for them

      You missed the point that rich people don't get harsh punishments, they get just a small fine. Poor people get harsh punishment, are you fine with that? Poor are usually poor, because they were born into a poor family, so it is their fault and they should pay for it?

      Also, did you know that in Portugal they tries something different. Instead of building more jails, they started putting money into getting drug addicts a proper job or something else to do. They ended up with a system that saves government money because of reduced amount of people in jail and the crime rates went also down, including drug usage. So even if you are okay with punishing criminals, that doesn't mean that it is the best solution in any measurable way.

      By the way, did you know that poor people are more likely to become rich in Scandinavia than they are in the USA? Which is kind of ironic, since many of the original settles moved to the USA to become rich.

    18. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Doesn't matter what color I am, I don't use illegal drugs, because it's not worth the risk. Considering the risk is higher if I am black, it would make more sense for me to be black that white.

      Selfish? Because I don't put myself in danger of being arrested? Because my mother doesn't worry that she'll have to spend her rent money to bail me out of jail? Because I think differently than you? Yeah, whatever.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    19. Re:Vandalism will have to be punished harder by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      That's not the worst part. The worst part is that this article demonstrates that they may be smart one day and doing completely stupid things the next. In millions of cars.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    20. Re:Vandalism will have to be punished harder by fluffernutter · · Score: 0

      These people may annoy you but you're missing the point. The fact is, you get around these people without causing a further issue. Automated cars have already shown that they are very poor at dealing with humans when they do unexpected things.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    21. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      My city can't afford to keep the potholes out of the streets. They're not going to be embedding electronics into the streets any time soon. It's also very convenient to miss the fact that these will need to drive with humans for the next 50 years. They will have to drive like the humans do, which means obeying speed limits and more importantly moving at the common speed of traffic. An artificial speed limit chosen by the car itself will just make driving unworkable for humans once some of these are on the road.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    22. Re:Vandalism will have to be punished harder by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Must be nice living in a city with cash to burn on embedded weather-proofed electronics in every street sign.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    23. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You make several valid points. The biggest rebuttal about them is that the countries you mention are mostly homogenous populations, without the racial history that defined the US. The biggest problem (imho) today is that the US has a large population that is being told every day that they have to "stick it to the man". Modern black culture in America is its own worst problem, and many who try to escape it are punished by that same culture for "being white".

      Poor immigrants come in from Asia every year. We don't see the problems in the poor Asian communities that we see in the poor black communities. So it isn't simply a "non-white" problem. It is a cultural problem withing the modern day black community. Part of the blame can certainly be placed on racism, but that once "whites only" was outlawed, racism is more of a crutch than actual reason for someone being held back.

      For many of the programs that worked in other areas, we have seen them attempted here in the US. They fail within a few years because
      1. It was a political move, and ignored after the election
      2. Only a dozen people were successfully helped, out of thousands/millions
      3. Blacks actively attacked the blacks that participated
      4. Clinics/offices in the neighborhoods served were vandalized or burglarized
      5. Corruption, bribes, slush funds, rather than real aid
      6. Too many people allow all of the above to happen

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    24. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by CGordy · · Score: 1

      Genuinely interested - do you have a source for your claim that white America has a similar crime rate to Switzerland?

    25. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      But yes, ethnicity still plays too large a role in sentencing

      That's a myth also, perpetuated by the same kind of shoddy "research" as the supposed "wage gap". When you control for other factors, they both largely go away.

      When it comes to the wage gap, controlling for actual hours worked eliminated the majority of it; when it comes to sentencing disparities the same happens when you control for aggravating factors such as previous criminal history and use of violence/weapons in the commission of the crime.

    26. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most civilized countries don't have cities packed full of n1ggers.

    27. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a spineless wimp who gladly gave over your bodily autonomy to your corrupt government, and yet you still have the audacity to call others stupid.

        "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."
      -Good 'ol TJ

    28. Re:Vandalism will have to be punished harder by careysub · · Score: 2

      If and when self-driving cars really become a thing, vandalism of street signs will probably have to be elevated to a felony with a mandatory minimums, even if no one gets hurt. It'll also have to be something where minors can be charged as adults because they're the ones who probably do the majority of it, and you know there will be teens who'll think it's funny to cause a 10 car pile up.

      As others here note, traffic disruption pranks aren't a big problem now even though stealing signs, or introducing obstacles is already possible.

      No defense against attempts to disrupt traffic is going to cover all cases, but an excellent one already implementable for all self-driving systems should be obvious.

      Self-driving cars aren't navigating a blind road grid, they already have virtually complete maps of the entire road system. Give each car a database of the location of all signs in existence. Humans need signs to inform them of the traffic law in effect at an intersection (for example) computerized systems do not.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    29. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The biggest problem (imho) today is that the US has a large population that is being told every day that they have to "stick it to the man".

      Yes, the right-wing anti-government militia is certainly a problem! Too bad you forced the FBI to stop reporting on them, because you wanted them to spend billions building a worthless border wall after shutting down their attempt to track down the routes firearms followed in illegal cross-border smuggling.

      Modern black culture in America is its own worst problem, and many who try to escape it are punished by that same culture for "being white".

      That's right, they must be the problem in themselves, that way you don't have to be responsible for doing anything!

      How convenient for you. Just wave your hands and scream about their "culture" while closing your eyes.

      Part of the blame can certainly be placed on racism, but that once "whites only" was outlawed, racism is more of a crutch than actual reason for someone being held back.

      Wow, you believe once segregation was found to be unlawful, all problems related to it magically disappeared? What silliness you believe. Besides, it is still practiced. Don't believe me? Go see how many school systems are still segregated.

      For many of the programs that worked in other areas, we have seen them attempted here in the US. They fail within a few years because

      You forgot the number one reason: There's a political party that doesn't want them to work, that wants to deny the effectiveness, or even the desirability, because that getting in the way of their condemning that very same black culture that you, and they, have spent decades denouncing, in between the times you try to color it as scientific or whatever.

      We don't see the problems in the poor Asian communities that we see in the poor black communities.

      So you're also blind to the problems in poor Asian communities. Huh. Why not add in Mexican, German, Irish, Italian, Okies, and even the Islamic communities that keep seizing control of entire imaginary cities?!? Oh, and don't forget the Native Americans who did so well after being shoved onto wasteland reservations and deprived of even having a sustained community.

      Congratulations WASPs, you've done the Lord's Work, haven't you?

    30. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      Oh please, don't even go there. You live in the same modern world I do. You have given up at least the same 'bodily autonomy' as I have to continue to enjoy that modern world.

      Let me explain it this way: I could spend all my money drinking alcohol, either at the bar getting drunk, or buying bottles of whiskey and drinking in the privacy of my own home. I don't do that. Not because the government says I can't, but because I choose not to. Similar to illegal drugs (or legal drugs, or, for that matter, auto-erotic asphyxiation) . I could do it, but I choose not to because I choose not to. Participating in that activity does not give me the return to justify itself.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    31. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Overall, US crime rate is about twice that of Switzerland..

      OK, but as of 2015 only 42% of US crime was committed by whites, while whites are 72% of the US population:

      .42/.72 = .58

      .58 x (about twice) is "about the same".

    32. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The biggest problem (imho) today is that the US has a large population that is being told every day that they have to "stick it to the man".

      Yes, the right-wing anti-government militia is certainly a problem!

      Does BET have a show called "Hold My Beer" that features your mythical creatures denigrating women and breaking laws? No? Nothing like the rap videos featuring crime and bad behavior?

      Or, do your vast right wing militia call someone an "Uncle Sam" for wanting to leave the group to fit into the successful business culture in America? No again?

      Do those militia depend on the government for their rent money, and cheat the system to get it?

      I'm not sure what your definition of "stick it to the man" is, but you many want to rethink it.

      Too bad you forced the FBI to stop reporting on them, because you wanted them to spend billions building a worthless border wall after shutting down their attempt to track down the routes firearms followed in illegal cross-border smuggling.

      The FBI has time and money for one investigation at a time? The FBI is building a wall? The FBI can't figure out where the guns Obama sold the drug cartels are because they didn't bother tracking the guns? Well, that part is true at least.

      Modern black culture in America is its own worst problem, and many who try to escape it are punished by that same culture for "being white".

      That's right, they must be the problem in themselves, that way you don't have to be responsible for doing anything!

      How convenient for you. Just wave your hands and scream about their "culture" while closing your eyes.

      What do you think I can do, personally, for the blacks living in Chicago's south side? Send them money, set up a GoFundMe page? Take away their guns so they stop killing each other?

      It isn't white people killing blacks on the streets every weekend.

      Part of the blame can certainly be placed on racism, but that once "whites only" was outlawed, racism is more of a crutch than actual reason for someone being held back.

      Wow, you believe once segregation was found to be unlawful, all problems related to it magically disappeared?

      Not in the same instant, but at some point in the last fifty fucking years government-endorsed racism stopped being the reason blacks were being held back.

      What silliness you believe. Besides, it is still practiced. Don't believe me? Go see how many school systems are still segregated.

      ,

      Schools are segregated because no white person wants to live in neighborhoods where they'll be robbed or killed just for being white. They are not segregated because the poor little black kids aren't allowed in the 'whites only' school.

      And, again, the blacks who make the effort to rise out of those high crime neighborhoods, and attend good schools, public or private, are then called Uncle Toms for forgetting their roots. The ones keeping segregation alive aren't white.

      For many of the programs that worked in other areas, we have seen them attempted here in the US. They fail within a few years because

      You forgot the number one reason: There's a political party that doesn't want them to work,

      Finally, you are blaming the Democrats. What a relief.

      Or do you really think Republicans want to pay even more welfare to blacks? No, they want them to work. Haven't you ever heard the horrible phrase, "Get a job"?

      that wants to deny the effectiveness,

      The failure of the programs proves their ineffectiveness. That's my point. The reasons for that failure are listed.

      or even the desirability, because that getting in the way of their condemning that very same black cultur

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    33. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Yes but you have to keep in mind that the U.S. imprisons more of its population than Russia.
      And almost 8x the rate of most civilized countries.

      prison population
      US. 2,193,798 737 per 100,000
      RUS 0,874,161 615
      CHN 1,548,498 118
      AUS 25,790 125
      UK. 80,002 148
      FRA. 71,190 103

      Once you get a prison record (even a jail record really) in the U.S. it is very hard to get a decent job again. Even an arrest record can kill your chances for many job categories.

      And keep in mind that white entertainers pay a $4,000 fine for a full bag of pot while hispanic mothers go to prison for 12 years (at a cost of $31,000 per year) for less than a single joint.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    34. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 2

      Actually, if you adjust for being raised in a single parent household vs being raised by both parents, the difference in conviction rates between whites and blacks disappears (or, at least drops to the margin of error of studies on the subject). The same thing happens to poverty rates.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    35. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The biggest problem (imho) today is that the US has a large population that is being told every day that they have to "stick it to the man".

      Yes, the right-wing anti-government militia is certainly a problem!

      Does BET have a show called "Hold My Beer" that features your mythical creatures denigrating women and breaking laws? No? Nothing like the rap videos featuring crime and bad behavior?

      You're probably thinking of CMT, actually. Or AM Radio. Or Fox. Or Sinclair Media.

      Or, do your vast right wing militia call someone an "Uncle Sam" for wanting to leave the group to fit into the successful business culture in America?

      You mean the business culture full of scammers and con-artists? No, they're cool with that, it's people who want to fight for law and order that get on their ire. They really don't like cops, especially honest ones. Or Social Workers. Or Revenuers. Or Census Takers. In general, they hate the people who go to work for the government, with a slight exception for the military members and the occasional grand-standing politician.

      Especially if said politician promises to do a lot of damage, they love that.

      Do those militia depend on the government for their rent money, and cheat the system to get it?

      Yes, they do behave criminally, you may not remember the trials, but the rest of us do. That has included not just accounting improprieties, but actual armed robbery. Oh, and printing their own money and license plates.

      I'm not sure what your definition of "stick it to the man" is, but you many want to rethink it.

      It's ok man, I know you don't want to admit there's a real problem among the right-wing, and you can't even imagine how they consider "sticking it to the man" to even include taking away welfare programs, besides their fondness for explosions and other assaults.

      The FBI has time and money for one investigation at a time? The FBI is building a wall? The FBI can't figure out where the guns Obama sold the drug cartels are because they didn't bother tracking the guns? Well, that part is true at least.

      Nope, the FBI did not have the time or the money for that investigation, they were stopped, because you screamed and threw a tantrum at the indignity at the FBI doing it, same with the FBI's gun-tracking efforts.

      But a wall? A wall, that's glorious, and you can make Mexico pay for it! All hail Halliburton! Why just look at what they built in Iraq! You'd almost forget Obama invaded the place...

      What do you think I can do, personally, for the blacks living in Chicago's south side?

      Well, as in all things, you can start by a little self-improvement, to get past your self-imposed delusions where you aren't responsible for anything since you're just blindly blaming a culture that you can roundly despise for its failings while doing everything possible to avoid looking at the faults in your own paradigm.

      After that, I suggest you call the Reverend Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, or Oprah Winfrey and ask them if you can do anything to help.

      Send them money, set up a GoFundMe page? Take away their guns so they stop killing each other?

      I suppose if you want to contribute to a gun buy-back program, you could. You could call Rahm Emanuel as well, he's got one. I wouldn't bother with GoFundMe, you'll probably get distracted by Roy Moore or something.

      It isn't white people killing blacks on the streets every weekend.

      Doesn't matter how often, if it happens once, it's a problem, and you can't even bear to put the ones who do in jail. Heck, you can even bear to put people in jail when they're caught red-handed in contempt of court or abusing undocumented immigrant labor for their own gain.

    36. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't matter what color I am, I don't use illegal drugs, because it's not worth the risk. Considering the risk is higher if I am black, it would make more sense for me to be black that white.

      It would make more sense if you made fucking sense, you shit-eyed little cunt.

    37. Re:Vandalism will have to be punished harder by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      So ? The AI has a bug. And likely several others.

      Most places on earth do not allow AI to drive cars on public roads. Some places that do allow, do so experimentally, provisionally. Bugs are not a coincidence but expected at current level of development.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    38. Re:Vandalism will have to be punished harder by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "Automated cars have already shown that they are very poor at dealing with humans when they do unexpected things."

      Actually, they've been coping quite well with this (like making illegal turns in front of the robocar), whilst I can show you any number of human drivers who can't even cope with having to pass an opposing car on a narrow country lane because they're pathologically unaware of the width of their vehicle and refuse to proceed unless they have 6 feet clearance on either side.

      Unlike humans, who need to be individually taught to recognise each new hazard, you only need to teach one AI and that programming can be shared to all of them almost instantly.

      A robocar doesn't need to be perfect, just better than most humans are (most of the time), all of the time.
      That isn't a particularly hard threshold to hit. Most humans make 2-5 driving errors PER MINUTE (lapsed concentration, tunnel vision, fixation, flat-out rulebreaking, etc etc) and they aren't looking in all directions at once _AND_ humans can only cope with a couple of simultaneous hazards at once. (EG, watching the wobbly cyclist in front of you along a lane of cars at a shopping area where car doors are opening and cars are pulling out may result in completely missing the pedestrian who just stepped out onto a crossing in front of you)

      Insurance companies will drive robocar adoption. It's already been noted that robocars have lower incident rates than humans _AND_ they don't trigger incidents like some humans do ("I've never had a crash but I've seen plenty as people try to pass me", etc). When this trend is played out in statistically large numbers you'll see insurance premiums for manual driving skyrocket _AND_ insurance companies start to demand that drivers pass more stringent tests, more regularly - which will trickle into government requirements for driving licenses becoming both more stringent and with regular retests (this is already happening in europe anyway.)

      Robocars will rapidly penetrate the professional driving fields, leading to lower taxi fares (the most expensive part of a hire vehicle is the driver) and once these become lower than the standing costs of keeping a car, you'll see a radpid dropoff in personal vehicle ownership. This is already happening in urban areas, with many urban dwellers not bothering to get driving licenses because they don't need them. Expect it to spread to towns and suburban areas too. Busses are likely to disappear thanks to the road damage they do, coupled with the high operating costs out of peak periods, being replaced with 6-8 seat transport (this is about the optimum size) which may entrain during peaks.

      Removing human drivers is likely to virtually eliminate traffic jams, because the single biggest CAUSE of traffic jams is impatient drivers following too closely (phantom jams on freeways disspate within minutes if only 10% of drivers adopt legal following distances) or trying to queue jump, not clear intersections, etc etc.

      Reducing car ownership is likely to be coupled with lower urban speed limits, but paradoxically we're likely to see transport speedups as traffic will be freer flowing (the journey average speed in central London is under 10mph and outside the central part it's still less than 20mph).

      Parking problems will virtually disappear - both because of fewer cars competing for parking and because if parking is too expensive in any given area, personally-owned transports can be ordered to go park somewhere cheaper. Governments which have large parts of their income geared around parking income should be preparing for this (In the UK it's illegal for councils to use parking/fines income (on or offstreet) for general revenue, but many launder it in ways so that they can - Westminster being the stellar example of "a parking company with a local government attached"

      Signs are there for hoomans. Transports will note them, but already ubiquitous communications nets mean that changed limits will be flooded across an area quickly - and to counter

    39. Re: Vandalism will have to be punished harder by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "Ethnicity plays too large a role in committing the crimes in the first place."

      When it comes to drug offences, they're committed in roughly equal numbers across all ethnic groups, with a higher rate in higher socioeconomic groups.

      That isn't reflected _at all_ in US criminal charging and conviction rates, with high status individuals usually being able to get off with a warning or by paying their way free, whilst low status individuals are more likely to both be convicted for the same crime and get substantially higher sentences for the exact same conviction.

      When it comes to other crimes, the distribution is socioeconomic with skin colour playing almost no part in it at any given socioeconomic level. The question is WHY does the USA still have functional apartheid, treat its black citizens like 3rd class people and get away with it?

    40. Re:Vandalism will have to be punished harder by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      A stop sign is defined by its size, shape and colour. (Hexagonal and red), which is the same virtually everywhere in the world, but the word stop is not.

      Similarly, all other road signs have legal definitions of size, shape, colour, border colours, reflectivity and artwork.

      Fooling a general purpose recognition algorithm is one thing, but there are enough cues in the sign's shape and size to hand off to specific "regulatory/advisory signs" routines in the first instance and generate an exception report for signs which appear "odd" (a robo version of "fixmystreet.com")

      if anything I'd expect vandalised signs (or illegal/unauthorised speed limit signs - something which is happening a lot in the UK at the moment) to be reported far quicker by a robocar than by humans.

      Only a reckless autonomous vehicle programmer would rely on general purpose recogntion algorithms for processing regulatory/advisory signboards. This kind of sensationalist article headline is clutching at straws, whilst the actual autonomous vehicle researchers are shaking their heads and tutting at the idiots who believe them.

      Sign vandalism is and will be a minor issue. Regulation might be needed for the display of signs which might be confused with regulatory signage - but unsurprisingly this is already in place in most parts of the world because they fool human drivers too and have been known to cause crashes.

  5. Bah.... by Freischutz · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Donald Trump conned half the US electorate into believing he would be a competent president who'd bring change and reform that'd benefit the common man at the expense of the super wealthy. So it seems to me that artificial intelligence and natural intelligence suffer from the same flaw, feed them enough garbage data and they'll believe anything.

    1. Re:Bah.... by ledow · · Score: 1

      Artificial intelligence isn't like natural intelligence at all.

      Natural STUPIDITY, yes.

      Nobody with a brain believes that a bankrupt businessman or politician is capable of telling the truth, and certainly not when they're making promises that don't affect themselves one bit.

      To be honest, my bugbear is taht AI was always a misnomer, because it's not intelligent at all, precisely because of things like this. There is no line of thinking that leads it to believe that a 3D turtle is a rifle - if you asked it to tell you WHY it was a rifle, and it could pick out features on the image that look like a rifle from a certain angle, yes, you could claim it was intelligent. But it can't do that. It's all just random junk and statistics, with heuristic (human-written) rules governing it. And the scariest bit - the attackers probably have more understanding how it interprets data than the people who created it.

      It's not intelligence to act without being able to provide reasoning. Trump-supporters and AI both have that inability in common.

    2. Re:Bah.... by StormReaver · · Score: 1

      Donald Trump conned....

      And that's different from any other President...how?

    3. Re:Bah.... by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      if you asked it to tell you WHY it was a rifle, and it could pick out features on the image that look like a rifle from a certain angle, yes

      Is the dress white/gold or blue/black? Use reasoning.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    4. Re:Bah.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Donald Trump conned half the US electorate into believing he would be a competent president [...]

      I doubt that. It's more likely he got the votes because his agenda was fitting theirs, or just because it would cause interesting times ahead. Who needs competence when you've been elected? Also, what use is competence, when its used for evil not good (for whatever definitions of evil and good for whatever point of view)?

    5. Re:Bah.... by Freischutz · · Score: 2, Funny

      Here we see Trump Derangement Syndrome in full effect. A story completely unrelated to Trump, and yet the poster manages to shoehorn a spittle-flecked rant into the thread. AND it got modded up. That's collective derangement. Remember folks, these people losing their shit are the same ones who told us they were qualified to rule us because they were so educated and erudite. Would actual educated people be throwing temper tantrums and acting out in public like this?

      OK, I resent that. I was comparing Trump's success at fooling 62,979,879 separate instances of the same natural intelligence to what these scientists achieved. If anything Trump's achievement is greater since each one of the 62,979,879 instances of the NI Trump fooled with his garbage data is a functionally quite distinct variation of the base NI whereas these scientists only managed to bamboozle a single variant of a much more primitive AI with much less variation from instance to instance. How is that unrelated? ... plus I have done nothing but heap praise on Mr. Trump for his skills at generating highly plausible garbage data. I find it most interesting from a purely scientific point of view that NIs are every bit as easy to fool by feeding them complete garbage data as artificial AIs are even though NIs are supposed to be more sophisticated. In fact Mr. Trump, with his political career, may have significantly advanced our understanding of how NIs deal with adversarial examples.

    6. Re:Bah.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Here we have a convenient demonstration of Trump-supporter Hypocritical Hysteria. A common, unimportant, Internet troll makes a minor statement of no consequence, no particular imagination, and no significant castigatorial qualities, and yet the unrepentant apologist for Trump can't resist trying to make it out to be a significant demonstrator of some problem among his opposition so he finds himself forced to inflate its character to a point of absurdity. That's a consistent pattern among the allies of Trump, the tendency to make mountains out of ant hills. Consider folks, these folks spewing their disingenuous defensiveness are the same ones who told us their rule was the only thing that would save us from some oncoming tragic disaster such as effects of the devastating War on Christmas. But if there was actually a problem, would any diligent savior with common sense be wasting their time with such unimportant minor details, or is it just possible that they're blowing smoke in order to distract us from the e-mails they're trying to burn so the ongoing investigation into their treacherous perfidy isn't revealed?

      When will they ever start to clean their own houses? Can they not purge their own distractions? And no, you can't count the defeat of Roy Moore, he only barely lost, and few of the people who find themselves in association with Trump could keep up the charade of pretending to oppose Roy Moore, and Trump himself was indignant at the thought of abandoning a person on grounds of integrity. Didn't want to set a precedent, I believe. Can't have Republicans standing on genuine principle after all. Much better to burn down the Windmills because they're a threat to nature unlike the soot-spewing coal-burning power-plants that are doing as God and Jesus intended.

    7. Re:Bah.... by Freischutz · · Score: 1

      Donald Trump conned....

      And that's different from any other President...how?

      Well DUH! .... the level, quantity and quality of the garbage data (or 'adversarial examples' if you wanna get technical), what else?

    8. Re:Bah.... by ledow · · Score: 1

      Easy.

      Allow me to provide you an answer using intelligence including reasoning which any current AI would be impossible to answer in the same manner.

      The dress is blue/black. Simple colour measurements on the original image determine this quite conclusively as does the purchaser and manufacturers of the dress.

      However, depending on the individual perception of the detection devices in question, and their associated processing of nearby stripy colours, some people perceive it as one, other or both of the above depending on the time given and whether they've "heard" that it's a particular colour dress in advance.

      Equally, some colour-blind people will see entirely different colour combinations in the same image, which is not perfectly representative of the original dress anyway given that it's effectively a false-colour reproduction made on a cheap smartphone CCD.

      The day an AI can return "Answer A, Answer A&B, and Answer Z which you forgot to list in the possibilities", and reason their way through it, you can say we have AI.

    9. Re:Bah.... by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry to inform you than millions of americans with brains believed him.

      Rationalization adjusts the weight of each fact to fit the desired conclusion. Even in the face of irrefutable evidence people will continue to rate it as not as important as other factors. In the face of refutable but true evidence, people just say it's not true.

      Sure, it's happening with people who voted for trump, but it happens all the time in real life.

      It's very hard to get people to agree something is true if they will lose money.

      On the parent topic- humans have momentary visual glitches *all* *the* *time*.

      And we design our signs, buildings, and roads to avoid creating those glitches.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    10. Re:Bah.... by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 0

      Here we see Trump Derangement Syndrome in full effect. A story completely unrelated to Trump, and yet the poster manages to shoehorn a spittle-flecked rant into the thread. AND it got modded up. That's collective derangement. Remember folks, these people losing their shit are the same ones who told us they were qualified to rule us because they were so educated and erudite. Would actual educated people be throwing temper tantrums and acting out in public like this?

      OK, I resent that.

      Fine. Now go wipe the spittle off your chin.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    11. Re:Bah.... by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      Buh buh buh ... RuSSiansS... Pussy grabbing...rich orange guy ... etc.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    12. Re:Bah.... by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      The day an AI can return "Answer A, Answer A&B, and Answer Z which you forgot to list in the possibilities", and reason their way through it, you can say we have AI.

      When I look at the dress, I only see white/gold, so I failed your test despite not being an AI.

      Simple colour measurements on the original image determine this quite conclusively as does the purchaser and manufacturers of the dress.

      Pixel values are light blue/yellowish-brown. And whatever the manufacturer says is irrelevant for my perception. I believe what they are saying, but that doesn't change what I see.

    13. Re:Bah.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very interesting photo. I've never seen that, and I find it absolutely amazing that so many people would see that as white and gold. I can appreciate the example explanation with illustration showing how a blue tint vs a yellow tint can make both color pairs end up with an identical RGB value. But when applying that logic to the photograph, I can't help but observe 2 things.

      1) The amount of blue tint needed to turn a white into that shade of blue is absolutely huge. On the other hand, it doesn't take a lot of yellow tint to do the same. Despite evidence to the contrary, I'd have to conclude the yellow tint is much more likely to occur.

      2) The tinting explanation make sense when looking at the dress alone (even though I still disagree one should come to that conclusion), However, when including the context of the background, it makes absolutely no sense. Looking at the illustartion on wikipedia again, while the dress itself ends up looking identical with the 2 tints, it's hard not to notice that as a result of the tint, the backgrounds of the 2 images end up extremely yellow or extremely blue. When you look at the background in the actual photo itself, it shows a very clear yellow tint, with not a hint of blue. With the amount of blue it would take to turn white into the color we see in the dress, there is no way you could have that sort of pure yellow color that you see in elements of the background.4

    14. Re:Bah.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hearing pain-howls and whimpering after smashing Trotsky-progressive face to bloody mess is a wonderfully sufficient reason.

    15. Re: Bah.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's your problem: you're viewing a lack of condemnation of Trump, in a discussion about AI, as support for the man. "If you're not with us, you're against us" is a bullshit rhetorical device. It's logically unsound, and makes you look desperate.

    16. Re:Bah.... by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      When I look at the dress, I only see white/gold, so I failed your test despite not being an AI.

      He said an AI, not every AI. Right now, while not every person can do what is prescribed above, some people can but no AI can.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    17. Re:Bah.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > the attackers probably have more understanding how it interprets data than the people who created it

      Google has hundreds of people working on the AI. More scientists than there where in Apollo program. People who have literally written books about AI. They know quite well how the AI works and how it can be fooled. When people write articles about AI they often say that "no one knows how it works". Yes, sure, if you train an AI, you have pretty much no idea what goes inside its head. But that doesn't mean you couldn't debug it and figure it out. At Google they debug these things, layer by layer. They study statistics and probability etc. The CEO of Deepmind studied a degree in neuroscience just because he thought he needed that in order to be able to make better AI.

      These people at Google are fucking geniuses. So it is pretty bold to claim that some random researchers know their AI better than they do.

    18. Re:Bah.... by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      You really lack the self-awareness to see how you're above this kind of cringey acting out in public, in a story with absolutely zero Trump relevance whatsoever? You're not seeing it? This is the same thing that happened during Bu$hitler's reign (you called him Hitler too), people would just start shouting about the President in any thread, no matter the distance from politics. Thus Bush Derangement Syndrome, replaced today by Trump Derangement Syndrome. You're a sufferer. Seek help.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    19. Re:Bah.... by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0

      Damn, what a strongly felt emotional breakdown in public. Wow, turn off the TV, there are other things than politics in life!

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    20. Re:Bah.... by Freischutz · · Score: 0

      Here we see Trump Derangement Syndrome in full effect. A story completely unrelated to Trump, and yet the poster manages to shoehorn a spittle-flecked rant into the thread. AND it got modded up. That's collective derangement. Remember folks, these people losing their shit are the same ones who told us they were qualified to rule us because they were so educated and erudite. Would actual educated people be throwing temper tantrums and acting out in public like this?

      OK, I resent that.

      Fine. Now go wipe the spittle off your chin.

      Projecting are we?

    21. Re:Bah.... by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      An AI image classification system already outputs multiple answers with probabilities.

    22. Re: Bah.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, except what if you're in error, and instead of your criticism of an assumption, it's actually viewing DNS-and-BIND's own history that is indicative of his long-standing support for Trump? It's a pattern, and easily observable. Your failure to acknowledge, or even consider that, instead resorting to vacuous condemnation with no substantiation, is actually what's logically unsound, and is the "bullshit rhetorical device" being practiced here, since an honest person would recognize that it is possible to correctly perceive that the poster is only regurgitating his usual rigmarole of despite that he posts regarding even the slightest indignation towards Trump. Really, it's a consisted repetition, and yet is an entirely false sanctimony that is all the more wretched due to the quality of its source.

      I'm sorry, but some of us can add up all the hand-wringing protests that such untoward individuals bring forth when Trump comes up, in their usual defensive posturing, combine with their existing history during the previous presidencies, and conclude that they are, in fact, despite their unwillingness to admit to it, bonafide supporters of the great unwashed Trump.

      Sorry, considering that, it's actually you who is mistaken. I can't say you're desperate(unlike Trump's supporters, as they are stuck with their cart hitched to a raving loon, hence their interminable hypocrisy), though you may well be since you are pursuing such a fatuous method of argumentation, but certainly you demonstrate qualities that indicate how you could simply be quite oblivious in your attempt to appeal to putative virtue. Yet you are quite mistaken.

      I suggest you remedy the problem. Try spending a few hours getting an earnest look at the reality that DNS-and-BIND does not want you to see regarding himself. Then perhaps, you might realize the error you have made.

    23. Re:Bah.... by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      But it doesn't output answers that aren't on its list... did you not follow the conversation?

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    24. Re:Bah.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's ok, DNS-and-BIND, I realize you have to take out the futile rage induced by your own shame in becoming the willing toady of a philandering buffoon as he lurches around without any real guidance other than whatever the television (conveniently tuned to the channel that doesn't dare criticize him) tells him he should scream about. Yes, you see, you're quite alike in that way!

    25. Re:Bah.... by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      One of us is. But there isn't spittle on my chin, so it's not me. Thank you for the clarification of your viewpoint.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    26. Re: Bah.... by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      The amount of yellow needed to turn black into that shade of gold is retarded. Way more than the amount of blue you need to turn the white into a light blue.

    27. Re:Bah.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, it's too brown and odorous to be spittle.

    28. Re:Bah.... by DRJlaw · · Score: 1

      Remember folks, these people losing their shit are the same ones who told us they were qualified to rule us because they were so educated and erudite.

      Or they're different ones who are merely pissed off at Trump. Far more likely different ones, but that wouldn't fit into your narrative.

      "Some Very Fine People on Both Sides." Your own leader says so, dummkopf.

    29. Re:Bah.... by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1
      One of the most shocking things that we all saw - in a sea of utterly shocking behavior - was important people with advanced educational credentials utterly losing their shit in public about Trump. They just lost it in public and started frothing at the mouth. Tremendous amounts of respect lost for these people, it is likely we will never trust them again in my lifetime. They called him literally Hitler. Christine Todd Whitman, Ashley Judd's speech at the Women's March, Timothy Snyder, the Levin professor of history at Yale University, Vincente Fox, Anne Frank's stepsister, the list goes on. What do you call someone who pushes theories that don't make accurate predictions?

      Noted Nazi and anti-Semite Donald Trump announced Jerusalem as capital of Israel. Worst. Hitler. Ever!

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    30. Re:Bah.... by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      That's why I told your mother to lay off the mexican food on the day before my weekly trip thru her town. All day long people have been asking me if I have shit on my chin, and I just point to your mom and say "Ask her."

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    31. Re:Bah.... by Freischutz · · Score: 1

      Indeed, it's too brown and odorous to be spittle.

      That's why I told your mother to lay off the mexican food on the day before my weekly trip thru her town. All day long people have been asking me if I have shit on my chin, and I just point to your mom and say "Ask her."

      Just for the record ... that last one wasn't me.

    32. Re:Bah.... by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      Good to know. :^)

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    33. Re:Bah.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The dress in the picture is blue and black in color, has always been. Except on a blue shifting old TN panel flat monitor with failing CCFL backlighting. Which is no surprise when the color wheel is turned just right.

    34. Re:Bah.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One of the most shocking things that we all saw - in a sea of utterly shocking behavior - was important people with advanced educational credentials utterly losing their shit in public about Trump. They just lost it in public and started frothing at the mouth.

      Yes, but as Republicans they had sworn an oath to support the Party over Principal, so they were obligated in the entirety to completely praise every puerile declaration out of his mouth, even when he literally misused the term literally.

      Even now, they're obligated to do so. It's compulsory. A religious commandment.

      Tremendous amounts of respect lost for these people, it is likely we will never trust them again in my lifetime.

      Why did you trust the GOP establishment in the first place? Not only did they get behind Trump, they also endorsed Roy Moore, Ron Paul, Louis Gohmert, Antonin Scalia, Todd Akin, Sarah Palin, Ted Nugent, Michelle Bachmann, Mitt Roney, Ronald Reagan, and Richard Nixon, the list goes on. They'd have voted for literal Hitler if given the choice over Obama. Fortunately they haven't gotten around to passing the Schwarzenegger Amendment. Yet.

      What do you call someone who pushes theories that don't make accurate predictions?

      A member of the Trump Cabinet.

      Noted Nazi and anti-Semite Donald Trump announced Jerusalem as capital of Israel. Worst. Hitler. Ever!

      I wasn't aware he had been deported to Israel, when was this? Really, exactly when did the President of the United States get the authority to decide ANY nation's capital?

    35. Re:Bah.... by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      It does output some answers that aren't on your list. So who's smarter ?

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    36. Re:Bah.... by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      I'm not the one who originally made the point, perhaps they'll have some prepared talking points. The real answer, though, is whoever actually properly identifies the thing being looked at more often. The real real answer is that it doesn't matter as long as we have to teach the AI in the first place.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    37. Re:Bah.... by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      To be honest, my bugbear is taht AI was always a misnomer, because it's not intelligent at all, precisely because of things like this. There is no line of thinking that leads it to believe that a 3D turtle is a rifle - if you asked it to tell you WHY it was a rifle, and it could pick out features on the image that look like a rifle from a certain angle, yes, you could claim it was intelligent. But it can't do that

      Are you saying the purpose of the algorithm was to explain to "you" WHY it decided certain thing was a rifle, it was tested successfully before release, and yet it couldn't explain it to "you" ? Most algorithms I know of don't have this purpose - except to explain to the developers / support staff , that too typically only in debug mode.

      If its purpose does not include explaining those decisions to "you", is there any failure in the situation you described ?

      BTW, why shouldn't an AI that could write billions of sentences of English without ever writing "taht" except to point out your mistake be considered superior to you in prose writing ?

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    38. Re:Bah.... by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      No one has made this point "originally". If you mean ledow , his original point was mainly that the AI is not really "intelligent" (as if means anything in particular) due to not being able to explain WHY [sic] the decision was made.

      He shifted to this new definition of "you can say we have AI" later - which included answering over and above the list of options.

      The real real answer is that it doesn't matter as long as we have to teach the AI in the first place.

      So which human could identify a rifle on the moment of their birth ?

      If real real answer to the question is that no one is "smarter", does smarter really mean anything ?

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    39. Re:Bah.... by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      So which human could identify a rifle on the moment of their birth ?

      None, of course. Both the AI and the human will, hopefully, grow smarter as they're taught, of course; so the real question is whether a given AI or a given human will fare better given identical inputs over time. You seem to want to reduce things to absurd levels for some reason.

      It's really not important that humans and AIs both start at 0, it's more or less a given, nor is it important that one or the other might fare better with better inputs; again, that should be expected. What really matters with regard to who's "smarter" is, given identical starting points consistently identical inputs over a period of time, which of them realizes the greatest improvement in their abilities.

      Something tells me our current generation of AIs could give you a run for your money in that test.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    40. Re:Bah.... by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      You seem to want to reduce things to absurd levels for some reason.

      You are confusing me with yourself.

      You said that it doesn't even matter if AI has to be taught. And this is the real answer twice over. This was the most absurd level in this thread. It contradicts many of your statements in this recent post about both starting at 0 and improving with training.

      Since everyone involved here has to be taught, by your "original" statement, it doesn't matter for anyone.

      I never made statements reduced to such absurd level.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    41. Re:Bah.... by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      You said that it doesn't even matter if AI has to be taught.

      Try taking that statement in the context of the question I was answering. You asked who was smarter and I pointed out that it doesn't matter who's smarter as long as we're the ones who have to do the teaching; that in no way means that it doesn't matter that we're the ones doing the teaching. In fact, it places all of the importance on us doing the teaching which, in turn, places importance on the AI doing the learning.

      What you were actually replying to just then was an entirely different point: it is a given that the AI would have to be taught. Of course, since it's also a given that a human would also have to be taught, you see the same thing on both sides of the equation, ergo no, it actually doesn't matter and you can remove it from the equation altogether. That's a rational reduction, the same as removing "+ 3" from "N + 3 = 5 + 3".

      Who does the teaching is what matters, not that both sides must learn. As long as we're the teachers, we can prevent any AI from becoming smarter than us if we so choose.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    42. Re:Bah.... by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      " It does output some answers that aren't on your list. So who's smarter ? "

      Are you taking only about AI systems personally trained by you ?

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    43. Re:Bah.... by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Touch screen keyboard.

      s/taking/talking/

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
  6. There is a workaround by rmdingler · · Score: 1

    While the visual street signs will remain once driverless technology is >/= human performance, traffic signs and intersections will begin being fitted out with remote transmitters that communicate with your vehicle's on-board system, which will communicate with other vehicles on-board systems.

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

    1. Re: There is a workaround by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought of that as a potential solution, but there are problems with that as well. What happens if self-driving cars get different inputs from visually analyzing the sign versus what is transmitted? Do they ignore the visual information in favor of what's being transmitted? What of people are driving as well and see the sign, getting different information than what's presented to the self-driving cars? It creates a potentially dangerous situation. It may well be possible to spoof signals, jam them, or otherwise tamper with the equipment that's used to transmit those signals. The result is a new type of attacks that don't presently exist but could then be exploited. The words of Scotty in Star Trek III probably apply here: the more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.

      The danger to self-driving cars may be overstated, though. The signs are simply constraints intended to regulate behavior and should be treated as such. A speed limit sign indicates the maximum legal speed. A stop sign is a legal requirement to stop at a location. However, it may be safe and prudent to travel slower than the maximum legal speed if there are icy conditions. It may be wise to stop on a narrow street with parked cars on either side if the driver thinks someone is about to step out from in between the cars. If there's an uncontrolled intersection, a driver may still need to stop depending on the need to yield to other traffic crossing the intersection.

      Perhaps a better strategy is to adopt a principle from security of defaulting to blocking traffic or input, then explicitly allowing some things through based on a set of rules. Instead of defaulting that it's safe to cross and intersection, it might be better to default to stopping. Then based on a set of rules involving road signs, other traffic, pedestrians, and safety hazards in the road, allowing the car to cross the intersection only when all of those conditions are satisfied.

    2. Re:There is a workaround by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I know my city has no fucking money to support their public transportation system properly. Like hell will they spend money on this, even if it costs $10 per sign.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    3. Re: There is a workaround by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      It is a compromise - making the streets safe enough while at the same time not causing huge traffic jams.
      You could, for example, control cars like trains (only one car allowed in a "block" between two traffic lights) or airplanes (submit trip plan before driving, obey traffic control instructions etc), but it would be extremely expensive and/or would essentially stop the traffic and a democratic government that tried implementing this would not last very long.

  7. We are Legion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am proud, a proud citizen of the fruitful and glorious kingdom of the Netherland; soon to be holders and protectors of a global hegemony the likes never seen before. Our mighty ships, our mighty crews, they will set fire to the lands beyond. A fire no mortal can put out. Such is the power of the powerful nationstate "Holland": Saviours of the Just, protectors of the Golden Child.

  8. What is it, then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's in the pic?

    1. Re:What is it, then? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A cigar

      Captcha: eyeing

  9. Still better than humans by houghi · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Many believe their imaginary friend is real. just because they where told by others that that imaginary friend is real. OTOH we won't believe a sign that said a bench has wet paint and we need to

    Now that the system knows it was fooled. Will it be fooled again? Because "Fool me twice and I won't be fooled again."

    I do not think the system was actually "fooled" It was taught the wrong thing. If anything, it was mislead. Just like you can tell a kid that the candy came out of its ear or you stole its nose.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    1. Re:Still better than humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *tips fedora*

      Atheists never fail to be amusing.

    2. Re: Still better than humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nice flamebait. It's misleading to say the system was taught incorrectly.

      Training an AI is done with a training data set that's intended to match the statistical distribution of the full population, minimizing the cost due to errors. In this case, the problem is classifying pictures, and the error is misclassifying an image. The training data set does have some effect on the classification rules. However, in most real world problems, there will always be some data that's classified incorrectly. Humans classify images differently than AI does, so it's definitely feasible to craft an image that humans classify one way but is in an area of the distribution where the AI is likely to misclassify it.

      A different training data set might make a difference, but it also might not matter at all. There may well be other points of failure besides poorly training the AI, and those points of failure are quite possibly more likely.

    3. Re: Still better than humans by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      so it's definitely feasible to craft an image that humans classify one way but is in an area of the distribution where the AI is likely to misclassify it.

      It's also possible to do it the other way around: craft an image that humans misclassify. Or cats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    4. Re: Still better than humans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huge difference. An artificially created picture is not photo (or even set of photos) of a real physical object.

    5. Re:Still better than humans by hey! · · Score: 2

      I do not think the system was actually "fooled" It was taught the wrong thing.

      Well on principle the solution is simple then: only teach the system the right thing. Just as in programming you can avoid bugs by not making mistakes.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    6. Re: Still better than humans by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      An artificially created picture is not photo (or even set of photos) of a real physical object.

      The objects that trick the AI are also artificially created. The turtle has specific patterns on its shell. If you'd print a 3D turtle, and put the circles on it, the cat would still think they were moving. It's very much a similar thing.

    7. Re:Still better than humans by houghi · · Score: 2

      We have had wars over less than what is "the right thing". Please don't.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    8. Re: Still better than humans by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Seeing an optical illusion doesn't affect a human's training for the rest of their life. They find the original course of belief again though other knowledge of the world. This is almost like being brain damaged simply by seeing an optical illusion.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    9. Re: Still better than humans by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      They find the original course of belief again though other knowledge of the world

      Sometimes, yes, but plenty of times people move on, not realizing they saw the wrong thing.

  10. Where did the helicopter come from? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously - The headline says it thought a rifle was a helicopter. The summary said it thought a turtle was a rifle.

    WTF?

    1. Re:Where did the helicopter come from? by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      The AI that wrote the headline knew it was a story about another AI seeing one thing and thinking it was another. Since it, itself, saw the turtle as a rifle, it had to think of what another AI might mistake a rifle for and it came up with helicopter.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  11. Programmed totally backwards by holophrastic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    All of these vision AIs are programmed backwards -- for convenience. This random object looks "more like" a speed limit sign and "less like" a stop sign. Great. No body cares about how much "like" something another something appears.

    You can ask any 10-year old. A stop sign is a red octagon. Any 16-year old will say it also has a white border, and white lettering in the middle. Any experienced driver will add that it appears at some sort of intersection, obstruction, or event, alongside a narrow road.

    Now, if you see a red octagon, and you stop, and it turns out to be a giant lollipop, then that's good. Because a giant lollipop on the road is absolutely acting as a stop sign.

    If something isn't a red octagon, then it's definitely not a stop sign.

    The problem here is that google's vision AI doesn't identify an sight according to what defines a stop sign -- a red octagon on the side of the road. That's because it's highly stupid.

    And the question really comes down to something much simpler. If I put a big square sign on the side of the road, blue, with yellow lettering, that says "please pause, thank you", will google treat it as a stop sign? Good bet that any driver who sees it (and can certainly be forgiven for not noticing it) will stop.

    Conversely, on a highway, at 120kph, if I put a real stop sign on the side of the road, will google treat it as a stop sign? No human driver is going to slam on the brakes.

    Google's not thinking. Therefore, it ain't an AI. It surely "looks like" an AI, but it's not an AI. It uses collected intelligence to determine what the object is, but it doesn't use its own intelligence to make decisions. It doesn't make decisions at all.

    Show me a vision system that can take any photograph of any road, and decide whether or not it should stop the car. Doesn't need to be right or wrong, correct or incorrect, it just needs to make a decision, reliably, that makes sense. See, if it can do that, "reliably", then we can change the signs for them. We chose the signs for us for a reason. Humans see red first, so stop signs are red. If machines have trouble with octagons, and love purple, then we can give them that instead. Dual signage is common in multi-lingual communities.

    But these shitty AI systems are much worse. They don't even make their classifications reliably -- because the more data they collect, the most they distract themselves. So a guaranteed "this is a stop sign, 100%" can change a year later, as it "learns", such that the very same stop sign is now only 80%. There's no fortification. There's no stubbornness. That's a problem.

    1. Re:Programmed totally backwards by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Show me a vision system that can take any photograph of any road, and decide whether or not it should stop the car.

      A human vision system can't do that either. Plenty of accidents are caused by a human driver misinterpreting what's in front of them.

    2. Re:Programmed totally backwards by Herkum01 · · Score: 1

      Conversely, on a highway, at 120kph, if I put a real stop sign on the side of the road, will google treat it as a stop sign? No human driver is going to slam on the brakes.

      That is not true at all, there are always traffic accidents or highway construction where you can unexpectedly encounter a hand-held stop sign. Humans at least have a sense of context of the current situation. Your solutions don't address that, and AI can always get a little bit more information to react(like congestion slowdowns from other sources).

    3. Re:Programmed totally backwards by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Highway construction, at least in my country, is announced about 2km away from the actual construction, then there are progressively lower speed limit signs (90 - 70 - 50) before the construction and signs specifying how to proceed.

      If there is a traffic accident that obstructs the road then I will see it from a distance (unless there is a very thick fog, but then I would be driving very slow anyway) in addition to any signs (a hazard sign must be placed at least 50 meters away from the accident and it looks completely different from an ordinary "stop" sign, in addition to the fact that it has to be put on the road, not on the side).

      So yes, if I was driving on a highway and saw a normal stop sign placed on the side, with no intersection or visible road obstruction or other signs, I would most likely slow down a bit, but not stop.

    4. Re:Programmed totally backwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... If something isn't a red octagon, then it's definitely not a stop sign.

      When computers entered retail, did shops teach their computers to read price stickers or packaging? No, mostly because that option wasn't available. We put a computer-readable number, a bar-code onto the packaging. That's what we need to do with lane markers and traffic signs. It's an obvious vector for vandalism but that's a different issue.

      At the moment, we're marveling that a computer can detect a simple object, such as a stop sign. We need a live-interaction computer to spend more time deciding 'how to stop safely', and as you reveal, 'is this a sensible instruction?'.

    5. Re:Programmed totally backwards by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Plenty of accidents are caused by plenty of reasons. Start excluding the exceptions, like weather, breakage, environmental distractions, procedural failures, and acts of god, and your "plenty" becomes pretty small. Take that "plenty", and divide it by the number of non-incidents, and you can call your "plenty" virtually zero.

      Millions of cars through billions of intersections every day in my city alone. Maybe ten accidents of consequence for 10 million people. 1 in a million.

    6. Re:Programmed totally backwards by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Congrats on completely missing the point. Pentium got it. Maybe you shouldn't be driving. Maybe you're an AI.

    7. Re:Programmed totally backwards by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Conversely, on a highway, at 120kph, if I put a real stop sign on the side of the road, will google treat it as a stop sign? No human driver is going to slam on the brakes.

      That is not true at all, there are always traffic accidents or highway construction where you can unexpectedly encounter a hand-held stop sign. Humans at least have a sense of context of the current situation. Your solutions don't address that, and AI can always get a little bit more information to react(like congestion slowdowns from other sources).

      There are rules for this, because people get killed and injured because of things like this.

      First, signs have a background color. If it's white on green, it's generally a navigation sign - next exit is a road, stay in this lane for destination, etc. White on blue is generally informational - next stop has these services, etc. Black on white is regulatory - speed limits,information (merge) etc. Even the slant on the black-and-white striped signs are important (the slant down to point to valid traveling lanes - if you see a chevron pointing up, it means both sides of the sign are for traveling, but if it's like a "\", that means the right of the sign is valid, and rarely in North America, a "/" would mean keep to the left of the sign)

      Then there's the one-offs, like Yield and Stop signs that are distinctive because they are conveying very important information, so there is no other sign that will be the same color.

      The ONE exception is black on orange. This means the sign is a temporary construction sign. And on the sign is anything - it could be any of the above (it's temporary), or it can indicate there's a flagger ahead (many places require indication to prepare people to look for them and understand their direction), or a speed limit change, etc.In general, you will never encounter a flagger in a high-speed zone - the speed limit will be temporarily reduced through the construction site for everyone's safety - and usually if there's a flagger, there will be further reductions in speed limit so you're not going to suddenly encounter a stop sign at 80kph (50mph). To help indicate work zones, those red and orange plastic markers are used to delineate lanes.

      These rules are codified in the traffic code and through North America, are standard (it's what allows a Canadian to drive in the US and vice versa without many problems, and what allows everyone to travel through different states and provinces without issue).

      Of course, that's not to say you don't have problems - on smaller highways between towns truckers have been known to excessively speed through construction zones and create very unsafe conditions (and that's with ample warning that they need to slow down) - if this happens too much they close off an entire side of the road and resort to everyone's favorite "single lane alternating" traffic, and in danger zones, single lane with a lead car setting the pace so even if everyone in front wishes to race, there's a car that will drive at a slow pace and regulate the speed through the work site.

      If any signage is going to cause any vision system problems, it's construction signage.

    8. Re:Programmed totally backwards by stoatwblr · · Score: 2

      Virtually _all_ road crashes and incidents are caused by human driver failure.

      Virtually _all_ of what's left is caused by "road engineering failure" - ie, poor placement of lines or signs, causing confusion. These show up as statistical black spots. - this is also a human failure and is frequently made worse by traffic engineers refusing to acknowledge they screwed up (there's a layer of politics and liability evasion in that too.

      A vanishingly small number are actual "honest to goodness" accidents (mechanical or roading failure, or things like a cow on the road, or a tree falling in the carriageway)

      Interestingly, it usually takes at least 2 serious (usually 3 or more) errors to cause a crash, even when only a single vehicle is involved. Our road rules have huge safety margins in them because of the fallibility and unreliability of human drivers.

      Getting humans out of the control loop will be one of the biggest steps in road transportation safety ever done. We simply are not equipped to handle anything that happens at faster than walking speed and everything we do when driving is necessarily an approximation because of it.

    9. Re:Programmed totally backwards by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      " there are always traffic accidents or highway construction where you can unexpectedly encounter a hand-held stop sign."

      In an era of uboquitous communications systems, there's no such thing as "unexpectedly encountering" anything. Apart from warning signs which humans see, such works are notified and in transport databases as road works and therefore are transmittable to autonomous vehicles.

      The "guy holding a sign" can and will in future be required to be using a transponder (wearing one plus one in the sign itself) which advertises its presence to autonomous vehicles - it'll be a part of his safety kit like HiVis and a walkie-talkie.

      A car "unexpectedly" encountering any kind of road hazard (eg, cows on the road) can be counted on to immediately upload that hazard to online databases. The next car won't be surprised - and the first car has good enough night vision + reactions to actually stop before it hits the animals.

    10. Re:Programmed totally backwards by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "The ONE exception is black on orange. This means the sign is a temporary construction sign."

      In the US/CA AU/NZ - it's different in countries using UN-standard signage, but the point is that there ARE signage standards and not that many individual signs in the databases - few enough that a robocar can keep the entire world database on board and still have capacity to spare.

      In virtually _all_ parts of the world, temporary signs are in the local traffic authority's database, because they need to know where they are - and failure by construction crews to note their locations when placed/removed can result in hefty fines already. Moving to near-realtime updates in a world with data communications everywhere (if not cellular, then there are already 3 different LEO satellite phone/datacom networks and Iridium has had 40 new birds launched this year alone) is a nobrainer at fairly low cost.

    11. Re:Programmed totally backwards by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      I agree with a lot of what you've said, but I'll adjust a definition therein.

      It may be a "human error" to crash as a result of blinding fog -- drive slower, don't drive, change lights, change street lighting, whatever. But that's not human error because we accept a certain amount of certain types of risks, otherwise we wouldn't be able to do anything cost-effectively.

      With that definition adjustment, I actually don't consider most of what you've described as human error. We've built a system designed to be safe in most scenarios, and designed to have members fail in some scenarios. That's fine by me.

      I promise, any AI driving will also have failure scenarios -- like driving into the sun on a snow-covered day.

      The difference is, as I've always said, I'm perfectly fine with the reasonable failure of another human being, as the cause of my injury. I'm not ok with the reasonable failure of a machine, as the cause of my injury -- even if it's statistically less frequent.

    12. Re:Programmed totally backwards by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "It may be a "human error" to crash as a result of blinding fog"

      This is one of the classic illustrations of why humans are unsuited to driving.

      Virtually every country has 2 speed limits defined in law - the posted maximum speed for the road AND the speed at which you can stop in the available visible distance (half that distance where there is no centreline, because the road is technically a single lane) - and the prevailing limit is the LOWER of the two.

      When you read crash analysis reports that state "excessive speed" as the cause they don't necessarily mean "breaking the posted speed limit" . Fog is one such example - there was a 60+ car smashup in the UK a couple of years back, where cars were travelling at the 70mph posted speed limit in fog - whilst the _SAFE_ and maximum speed was closer to 15-20mph. When drivers came across already-crashed cars they added to the crash before they could even react.

      This is very much "human error", where one of the classic human errors is to vastly overstimate one's abilities whilst vastly underestimating stopping distances. I'll repeat my assertion that hanks to millions of years of evolution we simply are not wired to handle anything happening at faster than walking pace and we are genetically predisposed to taking too many risks - at a lower speed you'd simply bounce off a tree, recover your step or miss that fish but the consequences at higher speeds are much more severe thanks to energies increasing with the square of the velocity.

      _YOU_ may be fine with the reasonable failure of another human being. I am not.

      I've seen too many people die as a result of momentary lapses of concentration or thinking they can beat that red light (or train at a crossing) and quite frankly the day-to-day driving ability of at least 75% of the population is cause for despair. For every Lewis Hamilton (and even Lewis makes errors), there are a few tens of thousands of Mr Beans. I've sat behind many cars where the driving style leads me to predict they're going to crash sooner or later simply because it;s clear the driver is not paying attention to what's going on around them - and in some cases been proven correct shortly afterwards.

      Automated vehicles bring something to the equation that humans do not - consistency and repeatability - and that's something that insurance actuaries can relate to.
      Despite Joshua Brown and a few other cases, it's already statistically clear that Tesla's existing driver aids have reduced the incidence of crashes by 40% - the US NTHSA has already noted this. Other driver aids such as automatic emergency braking has reduced the number of nose-to-tail crashes involving such vehicles AND substantially reduced the impact energies/human injuries involved in the ones that have crashed.

      Within a very short time after level 5 automated vehicles start hitting the road you'll see insurance premiums for human drivers start skyrocketing, mainly due to medical expenses in human-fault crashes (remember, robocars will already be travelling at speeds appropriate for the conditions and can react 500ms faster than humans, so the energies involved in any crash are lower). Shortly after that, robocars will be the norm on most roads.

      You may not trust machines, but the harsh reality is that when it comes to roads, humans are the least reliable, least trustworthy part of the entire package.

      In another arena - railways - one of the single greatest illustrations of how bad humans are at driving is the massive reduction in crashes that came with the adoption of simple mechanical systems to automatically trigger train brakes if a signal is passed at red (SPAD). This usually takes the form of a mechanical stopcock being knocked open by a retractable post beside the line which is only retracted when the signal is green (dead signal == red signal).

    13. Re:Programmed totally backwards by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Dude, you're saying that machines are better driving on roads than humans. You've absolutely zero evidence of that, given that there are no machines capable of driving on arbitrary roads at arbitrary times/climates/scenarios.

      You've based your entire philosophy on something that's never been done.

      There IS nothing better than a human driver, because there is nothing other than a human driver. Let me know when there is. We can talk again then.

    14. Re:Programmed totally backwards by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      "there are no machines capable of driving on arbitrary roads at arbitrary times/climates/scenarios."

      That's exactly what the DARPA challenge has been about for the last 20 years and I'll wager that most humans would fail that same test you've posited - else we wouldn't see so many "russian dashcam" and "american dashcam" crash videos.

      In the current models, if a machine can't drive a particular road or conditions, it will stop and ask for assistance, or take it very slowly until the route has been learned.

      I regularly encounter vehicles on narrow roads driven by people who think they can't possibly pass when the road is 3 times the width of the vehicle. The skill level of the average human driver is amazingly poor - and this is in a country with quite stringent driver testing.

    15. Re:Programmed totally backwards by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Your metrics are just plain out-of-whack.

      Every road that exists was built for people needing to drive it. Therefore, every road can be driven by human drivers.

      Compared to the number of humans who drive any given road, you see incredibly few dashcams crash videos. Of the millions of cars through billions of intersections every day, how many crashes do you see? 10'000 per day? That's effectively nothing (in terms of driving skill success).

      Choosing not to pass is a valid choice. Whether or not it's possible or easy is irrelevant. As is the skill of the driver irrelevant to this conversation. Flip a few coins, and randomly choose a road, a time, and a reasonable weather condition for that region. 99% of healthy drivers will have no problem with 99% of the existing combinations. 99% of self-driving cars will fail in at least one of 99 different ways.

      In my opinion, this is little more than a dependency issue. As a human driver, I'm dependent on the quality of my vehicle, and the quality of the road. That's about it (ignoring my own fatigue, of course). But that self-driving car (talking about today's cars) depends on mapping, vision systems compatible with the environment, experience with that road, experience with everything that actually occurs on a given trip. It's just insane.

      Any system that requires experience in order to do something isn't self-driving anything. It's playback, and nothing more. Dynamic playback, customized playback, co--ordinated playback, sure. But it's just another mix tape.

      Self-driving is like self- anything else. It's self-learning. You can either learn to do something that you've never done before, or you can't. You might learn slower or faster, at-speed or with your four-ways on, but if you can self-learn, then you can move forward and figure it out as you go.

      That's what "capacity" is all about. These machines have a lot of ability, but zero capacity beyond those abilities. That's the problem. They can't decide how to act in a confusing situation. And therefore, you can't risk putting them in a situation that may become confusing.

      Put it this way. You simply can't tell your ten-year old child how to deal with each and every problem that could happen when they are home alone. At some point, you need to trust that your child can figure out how to get through a new problem that they've never encountered. Until you can trust that they can do that adequately, you don't leave them home alone.

      It's that simple. It's all decision-making. Can you make a decision when you simply don't know -- because you're moving at 120kph with others doing the same. There's no time to ask for help. You can't always slam on the brakes. You can't expect a passenger, blissfully unaware, to suddenly understand the context of the situation. It's up to you, and you alone.

      Pop quiz hot-shot, what do you do?

    16. Re:Programmed totally backwards by stoatwblr · · Score: 1

      Amongst other things I've been a commercial driver and seen the way real people drive on real roads - including ones that shouldn't be attempted with the vehicles in question. One of the biggest problems with human drivers is inability to read the conditions and pressing on regardless.

      Assuming you're in the USA, you live in a country with a surprisingly high road death rate - much higher than we would tolerate in most parts of western europe - and that's despite the highway speeds and following distances on most roads here.

      The funny thing is that I've watched how self-driving cars have progressed over the last few years and how they're learning to drive roads never encountered before (Google was unusual at first in insisting that cars be explicitly taught the roads they drive on). In general they do better under adverse conditions than humans do, because they take fewer risks.

      The consistent arrogance of the human driver is to assume (s)he is a much better driver than in reality, and that cars have much shorter stopping distances or cornering limits than they actually have. There was an old joke in the 1990s that most cars know the laws of physics far better than their drivers ever will. Drivers who _do_ have advanced training tend to assume that makes them "safer" so they go faster and take even more risks. The reality is that we're unstable monkeys prone to driving extremely emotionally and should never be allowed direct control of high speed moving machinery as we tend to push it well beyond our abilities to cope when something finally goes wrong. Most people who think they're "safe" at high speeds show classic "tunnel vision" perception problems on the highway and "target fixation" on an out-of-control vehicle is one of the most common causes of collisions which should have been avoided. In cities, we get so focussed on one or two hazards (eg, a cyclist wobbling along a narrow shopping street in front of us, with cars parking or opening doors) that we can completely miss someone stepping onto a pedestrian crossing at amuch closer distance - or even register that the crossing is there.

      In my opinion, drivers who think they're much better than any robot (or most humans) are the ones least likely to actually be so, in a classic Dunning-Kruger setup - they don't know what they don't know, unless they happen to be the real 1-2% Mikko Haakenan or Nikki Lauda, etc - and you'll find that such drivers are _very_ safe, considerate drivers when in general traffic.

      Insurance statistics will drive adoption of automation when the robots are ready and in the meantime you can expect more and more driver aids to become mandatory/non-disableable. Arguing with actuaries is pointless and when the US NHTSA points to a 40% reduction in statistical crash rates in Teslas thanks to the driver aids (and an even greater reduction in injuries as crash energies have been lower than expected - particularly for car vs pedestrian impacts), they take notice.

      Yes, you may find that manual control is available under limited circumstances (speed limited, etc) or higher insurance rates applying, but just as aircraft have long been able to fly themselves from runway to runway and some have progressed to being able to taxi to/from the gate as well, cars will inexorably take the same path.

      Eventually, unlimited human control will only be allowed on closed or private roads or specialist tracks. You can also expect that being allowed to take control comes with stringent testing requirements far in excess of european requirements today (Most american drivers _fail_ their first european driving tests, no matter how much experience they may have) and with regular retesting to keep the license.

      In 50 years we are likely to be looking back on 20th/early 21st century cars, in the same way we look at 1920s vehicles now, shake our heads and say "They used to let humans control those things? No wonder they had sky high death and injury rates!"

  12. Fool by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    There's bound to be humans fooled by adversarial examples too. Who wants to do those studies.

  13. The Unexpected Outcome of This Study... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...is going to be the huge number of cats named Guacamole for the lols.

  14. When machine vision fails... by Wdomburg · · Score: 1
  15. Extrapolated information by Solandri · · Score: 2

    Optical illusions work because our visual system takes certain shortcuts to reduce the amount of processing needed to identify what it is we're looking at. e.g. We assume diagonal lines are 3-dimensional, leading to errors when we view a 2D object with diagonal lines. The only information actually provided was the horizontal line + 2 diagonal lines. Our brains extrapolated the nonexistent 3D nature of the object to create the error. (The top line looks like the the edge of a box viewed from the inside, so our brain concludes the line is further away and thus bigger than it appears; the bottom line looks like the edge of a box viewed from the outside, so our brain concludes the line is closer and thus smaller than it appears.) Likewise, the computer vision AI makes the turtle/rifle error because it's extrapolating from its very limited information subset to determine if the object is a turtle or a rifle.

    These sorts of errors disappear as you add more information, thus reducing the amount of extrapolation needed. I was driving on a rural highway at night when suddenly it seemed like the road was twisting and warping. This went on for about 10 seconds until I moved into an area with fewer trees, and I realized what I thought were billboards in the distance were actually boxcars on a moving train. My brain had been assuming they were fixed points in space, when in fact they were moving. So initially it erroneously concluded the billboards were static and the road was warping, but the moment I recognized them as boxcars my brain correctly realized the "billboards" were moving and the road was static.

    So in these early stages of visual AI, we're going to encounter a lot of these errors. But as the AI becomes more sophisticated and able to take into account more contextual information, these errors will begin to disappear. They probably won't disappear entirely, because you can only glean so much information from a static photo. But for real-life applications like security, the turtle/rifle error is highly unlikely to happen once the AI starts comparing the questionable object in multiple frames in a video instead of a single frame, or starts comparing it from multiple viewpoints provided by multiple cameras.

  16. "Unlike humans"? by k.a.f. · · Score: 1

    Algorithms, unlike humans, are susceptible to a specific type of problem called an "adversarial example." These are specially designed optical illusions that fool computers[...]

    In other words, just like the optical illusions that humans are notoriously susceptible to? Jesus. The phenomenon is actually somewhat interesting, but maybe you shouldn't start out with a blatant self-contradictory assertion.

  17. Humans ARE susceptible to adversarial training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The 2016 election is the result of three decades of adversarial examples being fed to the American public

  18. So like Trump voters? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So basically, AI are as smart as Trump voters, now? I guess we haven't come as far as we'd thought.

  19. Concerned by malditaenvidia · · Score: 1

    As someone who sexually identifies as an attack helicopter, I am concerned about the health risks this could pose.