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Apple Will Release Its $349 HomePod Speaker On February 9th (theverge.com)

After it was delayed in mid-December, Apple finally announced the availability of its new smart speaker. The company announced it will release the HomePod on February 9th and that preorders for the device will start this Friday, January 26th. The smart speaker will initially go on sale in the U.S., UK, and Australia. It'll then arrive in France and Germany sometime this spring. The Verge reports: The company's first smart speaker was originally supposed to go on sale before the end of the 2017, but it was delayed in mid-December. That meant Apple missed a holiday season where millions of smart speakers were sold -- but the market for voice-activated speakers is clearly just getting started. And at $349, Apple's speaker is playing in a very different market than Amazon's and Google's primarily cheap and tiny speakers. The HomePod is being positioned more as a competitor to Sonos' high-end wireless speakers than as a competitor to the plethora of inexpensive smart speakers flooding the market. Despite the delay, Apple doesn't appear to have made any changes to the HomePod -- the smart speaker appears to be exactly what was announced back in June, at WWDC. The focus here continues to be on music and sound quality, rather than the speaker's intelligence, which is the core focus of many competitors' products. The speaker will still have an always-on voice assistant, but Apple's implementation of Siri here will be more limited than what's present on other devices.

98 comments

  1. HomePod Haiku by Moblaster · · Score: 0

    You can't buy real friends.
    But lobotomized Siri's
    a close substitute.

  2. Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's truly amazing that people are willing to pay to have a bug planted in their home.

    1. Re: Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I second that.

    2. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Difference being:
      Apple makes money by selling you stuff

      Google makes money by selling your information, this requires spying and Google has been caught numerous times doing the wrong thing.

      Amazon makes money by finding out what you want so they can be the middle man, this requires spying. Amazons goal is to be the ONLY store at the expense of everyone else.

      I have ZERO intention into buying any of these, however I do trust Apple a little more to not sell my information than I do the others.
      If Facebook gets into the act, they will offer the WORST of all possible worlds.

    3. Re:Amazing by grub · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you want a smart speaker and are concerned about privacy and spying, Apple is the only way to go.

      For Siri, voice recordings are saved for six months on Apple's voice recognition servers to understand a user better. After that, they're deleted automatically and another copy -- without any identifiers -- helps improve Siri for up to two years. With anonymized IDs, Apple's speakers have a much more compelling argument for not handing over data: They can't find it. In the game of hide and seek with your voice data, the advantage -- for now -- goes to Apple.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    4. Re:Amazing by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 2

      I admire the patriotism of you west coast USA citizens but why not support eastern Pacific economies for a third of the price, where any conversations are personally monitored by Xi Jinping?

    5. Re:Amazing by MushMouth · · Score: 1

      Hope you keep your cell phone in a soundproof case. It even has it's own network that you can't audit to transmit everything you say

    6. Re: Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can be identified by your voice without the markers. Ask the CIA.

    7. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you believe apple. But they are not the more trust worth company. They claimed they where not throttling phones, but lo and behold they were.

    8. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Difference being: Apple makes money by selling you stuff

      And by collecting information for advertising. Of course they say the same things that Google, Amazon and Microsoft do about not transmitting personally identifiable information to third parties, it's all supposed to be anonymized as with all the other companies. And of course you can opt out and clear your settings but by default they are all on, it's opt-out rather than opt-in.
      https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT205223
      There's also their iBeacons for helping people track you.

      And yes of course there are ways to opt out of certain things and the degree to which you can opt out of things might vary depending on the company you're talking about but the assertion that Apple does not make money selling your information is false at least insofar as it relates to the other companies, that is if you interpret what say Google and Microsoft do with your personal information as "selling your information". AFAIK none of them actually sell your information, what they sell is a service to match categories of advertisements to categories of users and they all do that.

    9. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As if you couldn't link one household's samples together. There are enough examples (with other metadata) out there that whoever believes the quote should hand in their nerd card *right now*.

    10. Re: Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If you are concerned about privacy and spying you don't want a smart speaker"

      There, FTFY.

    11. Re: Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I admire the patriotism of you west coast USA citizens but why not support eastern Pacific economies for a third of the price, where any conversations are personally monitored by Xi Jinping?

      Indeed. Well said, but you are probably going to get downmodded.

      I'd rather the CCP spy on me than the NSA anyday.

    12. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Apple makes money by selling your information AND selling you stuff.

      How do you think they got 200b?

    13. Re:Amazing by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      Does Siri allow you to access and delete your voice recordings like Google does on its privacy dashboard?
      That's right. I didn't think so.

    14. Re: Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      West Coast = non patriotic socialists.

    15. Re:Amazing by jareth-0205 · · Score: 1

      Difference being:
      Apple makes money by selling you stuff

      *Currently*. The same apology was made for Microsoft, and then they pivoted and started hoovering up the data too.

      And you don't actually know that, that's just what you're assuming based on their well-oiled public relations machine.

    16. Re:Amazing by iamhassi · · Score: 1

      Difference being: Apple makes money by selling you stuff

      Google makes money by selling your information, this requires spying and Google has been caught numerous times doing the wrong thing.

      Amazon makes money by finding out what you want so they can be the middle man, this requires spying. Amazons goal is to be the ONLY store at the expense of everyone else.

      I have ZERO intention into buying any of these, however I do trust Apple a little more to not sell my information than I do the others. If Facebook gets into the act, they will offer the WORST of all possible worlds.

      You deserve mod points. Of the four evils you mentioned, Apple is the least evil

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    17. Re:Amazing by iamhassi · · Score: 2

      If you believe apple. But they are not the more trust worth company. They claimed they where not throttling phones, but lo and behold they were.

      Throttling old phones with bad batteries so the battery would last a few hours longer. That's not a bug that's a feature https://www.macrumors.com/2017...

      --
      my karma will be here long after I'm gone
    18. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL you guys are still slinging that bullshit.

    19. Re: Amazing by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      "If you are concerned about privacy and spying you don't want a smart anything"

      There, FTFY even more.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    20. Re:Amazing by MerlTurkin · · Score: 1

      A "Smart" speaker for dumb asses!

    21. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL you guys are still slinging that bullshit.

      By "you guys" you mean Apple? Because yes, they *are* still doing that but their corporate shills are still desperately trying to sweep this under the rug and tell you all about how this is a "feature" and Apple did it because Apple cares about you, they don't care about money they just want to make great products for you and make you feel good.

    22. Re:Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want a smart speaker and are concerned about privacy and spying, Apple is the only way to go.

      No. If you want a smart speaker and are concerned about privacy and spying then you realize the thing you want is directly in concert with the thing you're concerned about. If you're really concerned about privacy and spying then you don't buy a smart speaker, if you do then you're just demonstrating that you're really not that concerned about privacy and spying at all.

    23. Re: Amazing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Especially kids! They will get into all your shit regardless of how proactive you are.

    24. Re: Amazing by Brockmire · · Score: 1

      That makes no sense and complete shit. If they keep it for 6 months and know it's tied to a specific user, they just need to have the physical homepod to determine the unique identifier to match up. All they fucking did was increase the bills for lawyers. Cocksuckers. Fucking trying to pull a fast one because they don't have a shit ton of integration features, so they are trying to spin LACK OF FUNCTIONALITY as a feature. This is going to pack a lot of fail in a small box.

  3. Uhhh... by DigitAl56K · · Score: 3, Interesting

    And at $349, Apple's speaker is playing in a very different market than Amazon's and Google's primarily cheap and tiny speakers.

    The Google Home Max is a direct competitor and so far very well reviewed.

  4. But will they let Trump have one in the pokey? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's the 4-6 Billion dollar fraud question being asked internally.

  5. $349? by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    Seriously? I can buy 4 ecos for that with the current promo. Not that I want to, but still. I get the sense they're only doing this because their investors insist they do, cause it feels like they're setting themselves up for failure.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re: $349? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could also buy a 7.1 surround sound system that will rattle your & your neighbors' windows.

      I really don't understand smart speakers. So what they put smartphone features into a speaker? It's not going to replace my phone or even get a tenth of the use.

    2. Re: $349? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would be quite a shit sound system for ,$350

    3. Re: $349? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yet still 1million times better sound quality than you get from these stupid spy speakers

    4. Re: $349? by jaa101 · · Score: 1

      I think you're confusing quantity with quality. A $350 surround sound system with 7 crappy speakers could probably make a loud noise but quality, not so much.

    5. Re: $349? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know... I got a very nice 5.0 system used from an audiophile for $200 who just had to have the newer versions of the same speakers (original price for the set of speakers at around $2000). The speakers sound amazing and used (high-quality) speakers in general are just fine as long as people didn't play as loud as possible just to destroy their neighbor's sleep. New high-quality speakers can be quite expensive although to be fair $300 gets you a rather decent 7.1 store-brand setup with smaller satellite speakers.

    6. Re: $349? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had a 2+woofer setup some time ago (when I was a dick), it sounded miles better than anything out of stupid boombox.
      Now I have headphones with an amp. It beats anything with loudspeakers. Costs less than 300.

      Crapple is so lagging behind, it's like watching Cadillac trying to stay trendy with millennials vs Tesla. LMFAO.

    7. Re: $349? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So having a 2.1 sound system is dick people business? I can only imagine the horrendous people that have 11.2 systems. Mofos!

      Hey. You clearly don't know shit about sound systems. Enjoy your headphones, by all means.

    8. Re: $349? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who cares? The smart speaker simply streams to my $4000 speaker setup, blowing the crap out of the water with a shitty $350 (actually $250, if you subtract the processor and speaker inside).

    9. Re: $349? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woo hoo!!!. An audiophile catfight. I'll get the popcorn

    10. Re: $349? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if it is only streaming, why the hell does it need to be a speaker?

    11. Re:$349? by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      Or one Google Home Max. There is a market for a high end smart speaker too.

    12. Re: $349? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apples to oranges retard.
      We're comparing $350 to $350 not $350 to $4,350.
      Why the fuck would we do that?

      Also, with that much cash I could convert a room into a recording studio, with 2 speakers that will silence your whole system and knock people out if they stand too close.

  6. Go big or go home by Pollux · · Score: 0

    $350 for Apple's version of Google Home? It better be a grand slam.

    Which it won't be.

    Steve Jobs had the perfect sense of exactly how to package something at exactly the right price point for the consumer. But I think even he would consider $350 to be ridiculous. If he could find a way to create an Apple-esque combination of a portable bluetooth speaker with a wi-fi connected Siri-backed search tool, he'd price it around $200, not too low that it looks cheaper than Apple's "standards", but not too high that it's out of reach of the people that want one.

    This is already late to market. It's already $220 more than the competition from Google. Unless it's amazing in every way, it's going to be a fail.

    1. Re:Go big or go home by Albanach · · Score: 2

      I imagine it's supposed to compete with the similarly priced Google Home Max. However, the Max exists in an ecosystem, not as an island. So I can have a Google Home Mini in rooms where a voice assistant is useful, but I don't need music. I can have a Google Home for $100 in rooms where I'd like music, but it doesn't need to be loud. And I can put a Max in rooms where I might host a party.

      And, if I already have a hifi, I can use a Chromecast Audio and a Google Home Mini to get excellent quality sound with voice control for under $100. Google also has the advantage of by far the best voice recognition and natural language parsing of all the available assistants.

      Apple have a long way to go if they want to catch up. Unless those already inside their walled garden buy these things by the lorry load, I'm not sure they ever will.

    2. Re:Go big or go home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You should aim your comment for Google Home Max which is 220 more than its direct competition. Apple does not sell your information, does not spy, does not use your userid with your voice and does not keep your date beyond 6 months. So spying google is not its direct competitor.

    3. Re:Go big or go home by Yaztromo · · Score: 2

      Steve Jobs had the perfect sense of exactly how to package something at exactly the right price point for the consumer.

      In most instances, yes. However, this isn't the first time Apple has decided to get into the speaker business; the last time was on Job's watch, and it failed pretty hard in the marketplace: the Apple iPod Hi-Fi.

      Like the Apple iPod Hi-Fi, it looks like they're going to try to position this as an audiophile speaker. I have little doubt from that perspective it's probably a better music device than its competitors; the thing to watch for is to see if people are going to care enough about that this time around (they didn't seem to last time around). Most people don't seem to care if their speakers are crappy, so long as they can hear their tunes.

      Yaz

    4. Re:Go big or go home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple is a front for the CIA.

    5. Re: Go big or go home by zeiche · · Score: 2

      The iPod Hi-Fi retailed at the Apple Store for $349 in 2006. Hopefully Apple nails it on their second crack.

    6. Re:Go big or go home by Camembert · · Score: 1

      The iPod hifi speaker was actually remarkably good sounding and loud for the price. I think that what held it back was that it was visually a big brick.

    7. Re:Go big or go home by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      There’s also something rather important missing from Siri: 3rd party plugins. Apple doesn’t allow these (unless you’re building the next Waze, Uber or WhatsApp) while the competitors do. On its own, Siri isn’t all that useful as a voice controlled assistance. For Alexa there are tons of useful plugins.

      Then again Apple are pitching this thing mostly as a hifi product, according to TFA. A hifi product that doesn’t do multi room audio or even stereo (yet). If they add those features at some point, if the speaker turns out to be of high quality and if it integrates really well with both Apple’s music ecosystem and the other popular streaming services, it will find a market. But so far it looks like HomeKit all over again: too little too late, lack of focus, lack of vision, and a thorough lack of understanding the market.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    8. Re:Go big or go home by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Thereâ(TM)s also something rather important missing from Siri: 3rd party plugins. Apple doesnâ(TM)t allow these

      This tells you what Apple thinks of Apple users. They're not competent enough to manage plug-ins. All software Apple makes is designed on a holding-your-dick-for-you basis.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:Go big or go home by danbert8 · · Score: 1

      One of my complaints about Google is that they don't have a headphone or audio out jack on the Home Mini. I have Echo dots hooked up to speakers around my house and would love to replace all of them with Google's product, but having to deal with Bluetooth audio adapters to use the speakers I already have is not worth it.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    10. Re: Go big or go home by Brockmire · · Score: 1

      If you're thinking of price, you're not Apple's target customer.

  7. To be fair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The hardware cant be upgraded later in the same way Siri performance could.

    That being said I don't see myself buying a smart speaker in the foreseeable future.

  8. Mouser has speakers for a couple bucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You just need to solder some wire on it.

  9. Local iTunes Server? by crow · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The one thing that the Echo and Google Home both fail at is playing the music I already own from my own server. Both want to sell you a subscription to their music service. Sure, I can use them as dumb bluetooth speakers, but then I don't have the voice control, defeating the purpose. I was hoping that Apple would make their Home Pod work with your local iTunes server, which would be a compelling feature for me, but from the page at apple.com, it doesn't indicate that this is allowed. Instead, they're focusing on their music service.

    1. Re:Local iTunes Server? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can upload your own music to Google Music. Use the Music Manager.

    2. Re:Local iTunes Server? by Albanach · · Score: 1

      Phlex creates a voice interface for Plex. Or, as also suggested, you can upload your own music to Google Play and pay only for storage. $24/year is pretty reasonable for 100GB.

    3. Re:Local iTunes Server? by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 0

      I could rent an apartment three counties away from my house to put my refrigerator in.

      Why would uploading my music to Google make any more sense?

    4. Re:Local iTunes Server? by adolf · · Score: 1

      Sonos, then?

      No subscriptions. Just point it at an SMB share somewhere on the LAN.

    5. Re:Local iTunes Server? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      That’s what I like about solutions like Sonos, Kodi and LMS (Squeezebox): they aren’t part of a monolithic ecosystem and they don’t try to hook you into using their rubbish services. Sonos and LMS both play local music files and streams from services like Spotify.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    6. Re: Local iTunes Server? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, for one... Uploading is free but renting isn't?

    7. Re:Local iTunes Server? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's probably an app that will handle this for you that integrates well into the Echo / Home.

      Worst case, they've already added support for casting music over BT.

  10. Of course HomePod can play your own music by Brannon · · Score: 2

    It works as an Airplay2 speaker--anything you can play on any Apple device can be redirected to any airplay device.

    1. Re:Of course HomePod can play your own music by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So like a Chromecast device. Revolutionary!

    2. Re:Of course HomePod can play your own music by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might want to check which way round that happened. And no, not like a Chromecast which doesn't do direct transfer but pulls off the internet..

  11. Siri by moonracer · · Score: 1

    I get a far better response from my dog.

  12. Re: Wow - Apple just invented the smart speaker! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lol the Apple fanboys are extra butt hurt today. Lol $350 speaker. I hope you have to stand in line to get it. Fucking posers.

  13. Pity about no line-in. by Camembert · · Score: 2

    I would conceivably be interested in a pair of homepods (if the sound is good enough) to replace my good but bulky floorstanding speakers. I do like the streaming concept.
    However, unless I overlooked it, it has no external input. That is a dealbreaker for me; because I would like to use it as a speaker for everything, including tv, dvd/bluray/cd, a console when the kids grow up, etc. Hence ideally I could go with a line out from my audio amp to these speakers so they would be truly universal.
    It looks like this is not possible, or is there a workaround?

    1. Re:Pity about no line-in. by Camembert · · Score: 1

      For example, is there a simple device that takes line in, converts to digital and transmits the sound over airplay? That could be a workaround.

    2. Re:Pity about no line-in. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple TV 4K is such a device.

    3. Re:Pity about no line-in. by Camembert · · Score: 1

      I don’t think it has a line-in, or am I mistaken? I understamd that otherwise the sound of whatever is on apple tv can be streamed to homepod.

    4. Re:Pity about no line-in. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are tons of wireless dlna/bluetooth receivers with both line in *and* wireless. I have a cheap Ider one (search ider idmusic) that does the trick for $30. Just connect your favorite active speakers to it, and you have a blow-your-socks "wireless speaker".

    5. Re: Pity about no line-in. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, It isn't.

    6. Re:Pity about no line-in. by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      If by "workaround", you mean "the stupidest idea ever".

      --
      Eat the rich.
    7. Re:Pity about no line-in. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AC APL fan is retarded. You're not mistaken.

      There may be a line-in to bluetooth that most assistants can use.

  14. Wow by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 3, Funny

    And the crowd goes mild.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  15. Too cheap. (Today's joke) by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 4, Funny

    Sorry, I only buy Apple products that cost more than $1,000.

  16. Wouldn't April 1st be more appropriate? by RhettLivingston · · Score: 1

    I mean, $349 is a joke, right?

    1. Re:Wouldn't April 1st be more appropriate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it a appropriate price for a mediocre apple product

    2. Re:Wouldn't April 1st be more appropriate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The joke is that Apple fans will happily pay $349 for a $60 bluetooth speaker.

    3. Re:Wouldn't April 1st be more appropriate? by RhettLivingston · · Score: 1

      And do so repeatedly. To achieve coverage of an average Apple fan's home, they'll need at least five of these and probably more - $1745 + tax ~= $1850.

      For prices much less than this (under $200 total actually), you can already pick up a Sonos+Echo Dot combination and Sonos+Home Mini is just around the bend. I'm sure Bose isn't far behind since they already have headphones with Google Assistant. Sony has a $200 device with the assistant built in and the JBL Link can be had for $149. They are jumping into a very crowded marketplace already populated by companies with speaker expertise. Good luck.

  17. Re: Wow - Apple just invented the smart speaker! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Im sure we will all have to hear about how this speaker will revolutionise sound waves; because of apple physics and other bullshit.

  18. Re: Wow - Apple just invented the smart speaker! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sound waves will reverberate inside a butthole, producing an unparalleled sensation, albeit marginally beating that of Tim Cock's personal titanium dildo.

  19. Open the Pod Bay Door... by neoRUR · · Score: 1

    Home, Open the Pod Bay Doors!

    1. Re:Open the Pod Bay Door... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Siri: let me look that up on the web

  20. Actually Google by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    Given how Google's core market is the analytics on your data, your data is their "coke classic recipe". If you want to ensure your data is protected and not shared with 3rd parties you wouldn't give it to any company which doesn't focus on your data as their sole core business.

    That includes Apple, but is most specifically focused on Amazon. The former has only reputational reasons to protect your data, the latter has no reason at all.

    1. Re:Actually Google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly this, only the most tech ignorant apple cultists and shills go around saying Google sells your data.

  21. I'm very afraid by Sqreater · · Score: 1

    Will it be placed in the cellar? Will it make an alien copy of me while I sleep?

    --
    E Proelio Veritas.
  22. LOL this is supposed to be an Echo killer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looks like another half baked gimmick from apple.

  23. Same Song, Different Chorus by Shogun37 · · Score: 1

    APPLE Bravely Sells Overpriced Crap You Can Buy Better And Cheaper Elsewhere! #drunkonthierownkoolaide. All Are ONE In APPLE! (Apple might as well file the paperwork to the IRS and apply for a religious exemption on their taxes. I mean, its already a cult, right?)

    1. Re:Same Song, Different Chorus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No need for religious exemptions when Ireland illegally gives them sweetheart deals

  24. Just one more spying device by biggaijin · · Score: 1

    That I will never allow into my home.

  25. Never - ever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's about time. Now I have another product I'll never buy. Fuck Apple

  26. I'm in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apple will pay me $350 to put one of their always-on spying devices in my home? I'm in! Wait, what...I have to pay them?!

  27. Major flaw on this piece of crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No apple logo that i could see. How will people know you have an ithing if the logo is not prominently displayed?

  28. I..... by MerlTurkin · · Score: 1

    do not care. There I said it.