Should Apps Replace Title Bars with Header Bars? (gnome.org)

Gnome contributor Tobias Bernard is on a crusade against title bars -- "the largely empty bars at the top of some application windows [that] contain only the window title and a close button." Instead he wants to see header bars -- "a newer, more flexible pattern that allows putting window controls and other UI elements in the same bar." Tobias Bernard writes: Header bars are client-side decorations (CSD), which means they are drawn by the app rather than the display server. This allows for better integration between application and window chrome. All GNOME apps (except for Terminal) have moved to header bars over the past few years, and so have many third-party apps. However, there are still a few holdouts.
He's announcing the CSD Initiative, "an effort to get apps (both GNOME and third-party) to drop title bars and adopt GNOME-style client-side decorations... The only way to solve this problem long-term is to patch applications upstream to not use title bars. So this is what we'll have to do."

• Talk to the maintainers and convince them that this is a good idea
• Do the design work of adapting the layout and make mockups
• Figure out what is required at a technical level
• Actually implement the new layout and get it merged

Implementation is already in progress for Firefox, though it has not yet been started for other high-priority apps like LibreOffice, GNOME Terminal, and Skype. "If you want to help with any of the above tasks," writes Tobias, "come talk to us on #gnome-design on IRC/Matrix."

Comments

Just. Fuck. Off.

[Anonymous Coward]

"I must make my mark by fucking up a user interface that's worked fine for thirty damned years!!!! Because I'm soooo much smarter than everyone else!!!"

The sad thing is, the dolts running Gnome might agree with this simpering jackass. Hell, can't pass up a chance to cram in more bloat!

Re:Just. Fuck. Off.

[MMC Monster]

Where the fuck are we supposed to grab a window in order to move it if the title bar is crammed full of junk?

Keep the title bar and bring back the menu bar as well. those of us that actually use a windowing operating system need them.

You want to determine whether the user is using a touch interface and adjust the UI accordingly? Fine. But some of us actually produce content on desktop computers, where design elements are made to conform to a keyboard and mouse interface.

Re:Just. Fuck. Off.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Where the fuck are we supposed to grab a window in order to move it if the title bar is crammed full of junk?

Come up with a new UI paradigm. For instance, for years now I use Meta+Left Click to grab my windows and move them (KDE). I can grab them anywhere in the window area so I don't have to try target a few pixels at the top of it. To maximize the window, I just drag it to the top of the screen. To unmaximize it I pull it away from the top the the screen. It is much quicker and easier to move windows around.

So that leaves the close button and the window action button, and the window title. Both button actions are accessible via the right-click menu on the task bar. The window title is meaningless in a traditional window environment (tiling managers are different) since you tend to only focus on the window title when looking at the task bar.

I'm all for getting rid of the title bar and would really like the additional line of text available to me, but I'm not convinced the GNOME solution is the best one.

Re:Just. Fuck. Off.

[Hal_Porter]

The sad thing is even though Apple sell about 15% of phones and about 8% of desktops everyone else seems to think if they copy Apple they'll sell more stuff.

It never seems to occur to them that when people buy an Android or Windows device instead of an Apple one, it might be because they don't like the way Apple do stuff and therefore copying Apple is not a good idea.

The problem is all the tech journalists are Apple fanboys and if they see other platforms copying Apple they shower them with praise. And then keep buying only Apple stuff.

Re:Just. Fuck. Off.

[Hognoxious]

There seems to be a new fad of making the scroll bar needle-thin too. Just about usable on a stable desk with an actual mouse; not so good on a touchpad when you're riding a bus or train.

And as you point out, terrible if you have reduced dexterity.

Re:Just. Fuck. Off.

[Falos]

Myst UI, that's good, I'm keeping that.

Oh look, instead of a menu bar I have a widening arrow, a ribbon, a curled ribbon, a trio of lines, a trio of dots, and a trio of dots with double lines.

I have no fucking idea which one has the controls under "View", but even when I find it, that still won't justify the Myst button.

I'm not sure I even tolerate the usually-consistent gear/screwdriver/wrench that kindasorta manages to identify with config/prefs.

Consistent interfaces?

[coats]

And the chance that I'll have any kind of consistent interface, when thousands of app-writers are rolling their own? ZERO!

No, of course not.

[Misagon]

There is a distinction between controls for an app and controls for a window manager.
These are two different concepts and should not be muddled up.

Similarly, should an app be able to bind Alt+Tab for its own use? No, of course not.

Re:No, of course not.

[MMC Monster]

You're thinking like someone that uses a computer with a keyboard and mouse.

The initiative is focused on users that use a touch device.

In other words, the project is run by UI idiots.

No.

[dskoll]

I like my title bars and hate apps that think they're too important to cooperate with my window manager.

GNOME is done.

[Gravis Zero]

The GNOME UI people have apparently become addicted to changing well defined behavior in favor of some crazy shit. GNOME 3 caused a mass exodus of developers because of this, so all they have left is the people who think it's acceptable to completely change the UI whenever they feel like it. This is descending into the death throes of GNOME.

Re:GNOME is done.

[DNS-and-BIND]

It's designers re-designing things for no other reason than to have work to point to on their resume. That's it. If everything is OK, and things are going great, what kind of work are designers going to do? How are they going to get their next jobs?

Note that I'm not joking or being sarcastic. Designers really do get judged like this and if they don't re-design things, then where will they be? They will kill project after project because this is their lifeblood. I don't see it getting any better anytime soon, at least until "had the good judgment not to mess with a good system" becomes a valid bullet point on a designer's resume.

Re:GNOME is done.

[ChunderDownunder]

Phoronix regularly summarizes the kwin developer's blog, complete with humourous rants about all the dumb shit the Gnome team in Red Hat want to foist on his KDE/Wayland implementation.
Gimp, Firefox, gnome system monitor and synaptic are the only GTK programs I use regularly or I'd purge the toolkit entirely.

Re:Sometimes they don't get in the way

[tpierron]

Yep, and it is not necessarily a bad thing that they are empty: it provides a clear area where you can grab and move the window. When I see the examples in the articles: how the f**k are you supposed to move these ? This is also what I don't like with chrome and the new firefox quantum: when your bar is full of tabs, good luck moving the window.

I know that multi-tasking is kind of overrated these days, but come on, some people still uses their desktop to do more things at once ...

we have existence proof of why this is bad design

[poptart]

have you ever tried to reposition a firefox or chrome window that is full of tabs?

what happens when the window manager uses BeOS style titlebars?

what happens to my webex/remote-desktop overlays when there is no empty space for them to live over?

somewhat related: have you ever tried to resize a window that does not have obvious resize control handles? or have you ever tried to *not* resize a window when the non-obvious control 'areas' take your click instead of the drag-to-select-text that you intended?

and don't get me started on scrollbars that appear and disappear depending on where you put your cursor instead of what the content is.

God help us

[eddeye]

This is exactly why I quit using Gnome 20 years ago. Breaking UI conventions that work perfectly fine and destroying consistency.

Why in god's name would I want apps to cram even more useless controls in my face? A window needs two things: a title so I know WTH it is, and min/max/close buttons. That's it. Now Gnome is taking that away? Just for 20 pixels of real estate ?

Anyone calling themselves a "modern UI developer" should be tarred and feathered. Apple went to flat controls and borderless buttons. Microsoft made Office 2016 flatter than Kansas and decided light gray text controls on bright white background was somehow legible. Gnome has been lost in their own rabbit hole for decades. All of it making interfaces less intuitive and harder to use. A pox on all their houses.

Re:Problem is as app complexity grows...

[jd]

Most of those are designed by people who have never learned how to design UIs. Human-Computer Interface courses are available and I'd gladly run one for the GNOME team if I thought they'd pay attention.

Arrogance

[Anonymous Coward]

This reeks of Lennart Poettering-levels of arrogance and stupidity.

Please don't put controls

[rsilvergun]

on the itty bitty bars at the top of my window on my 1080p monitor. I don't want clicking 'new tab' to feel like sniping somebody from across a map. I do, however, want hierarchical menus (File, Edit, View) that follow a consistent pattern making it easy to find things. Whoever came up with the Ribbon should be launched into space and fired out of an airlock.

Re:Tricky.

[e432776]

I think you hit it on the head. I also would add that gnome 3 made the problem worse by having needlessly wide title bars. It feels like the loaded the dice a bit here..