House Democrats' Counter-Memo Released, Alleging Major Factual Inaccuracies (vox.com)

Long-time Slashdot reader Rei writes: Three weeks ago, on a party-line vote, the U.S. House Intelligence Committee voted to release a memo from committee chair and Trump transition team member Devin Nunes. The "Nunes Memo" alleged missteps by the FBI in seeking a FISA warrant against Trump aide Carter Page; a corresponding Democratic rebuttal memo was first blocked from simultaneous release by the committee, and subsequently the White House. Tonight, it has finally been released.

Among its many counterclaims: the Steele Dossier, only received in September, did not initiate surveilance of Page which began in July; the Steele dossier was only one, minor component of the FISA application, and only concerning Page's Moscow meetings; Steele's funding source and termination was disclosed in the application; and a number of other "distortions and misrepresentations that are contradicted by the underlying classified documents". Perhaps most seriously, it accuses Nunes of having never read the FISA application which his memo criticized.
Vox argues the memo proves that no one was misled when the surveillance was authorized. "The FBI clearly states right there in the FISA application that they believe Steele was hired to find dirt on Trump... After the Schiff memo was released on Saturday, House Republicans released a document rebutting its core claims. Their response to this damning citation is -- and I am not making this up -- that the vital line in which the FBI discloses the information about Steele was 'buried in a footnote.'"

Comments

How is this news for nerds?

[cowwoc2001]

This is political mudslinging, not news for nerds.

Re:How is this news for nerds?

[Deathlizard]

Political mudslinging is news for nerds now.

Just go to Gizmodo.com if you don't believe me. For a tech blog it seems like every other blog post is a "I Hate Donald Trump" Story,

Re:How is this news for nerds?

[Anonymous Coward]

The DNC/Clinton machine paid for the Steele Dossier which was used as justification for FISA warrant to spy on the opposition campaign.

It was used as a supporting piece of evidence, not the entire basis for the warrant request.

Hillary masked her purchase through two legal proxies (one of whom pled the fifth in a deposition) and hired a foreign spy as part of gathering the intel.

A foreign spy as in a formally recognized British expert in Russian affairs? Maybe she should have hired some guy named Curveball?

This is big stuff, Watergate big, I mean using Oppo Research to spy on people in the middle of an election. Watergate was just a third-rate burglary. This is 50 times what that was.

Bullshit.

Nothing about this warrant allowed for the spying of the Trump campaign and I would appreciate it if you would stop making shit up. As to this being worse than Watergate, it's pretty obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about. Watergate wasn't a "third-rate burglary" it was a clandestine operation meant to steal the opposition's plans as well as bug the Democratic Party's headquarters - but if you need to bend the facts to make your case, the truth isn't going to stop you.

This is no longer some pie-in-the-sky conspiracy. There is massive evidence, including statements from the co-conspirators, that highlights this exact operation in detail.

And yet, you supply nothing to support this conspiracy theory. Imagine that!

It is almost certain that the FBI used the dossier to get FISA court warrants to spy on Trump associates, meaning it used the opposition research of the party in power to convince a court to let it spy on the candidate of the other party - likely without telling the court of the dossier's political link.

More bullshit.

It not almost certain or any other kind of certain that this warrant was used to spy on the Trump campaign. The truth is, once Flynn was caught speaking to the Russian ambassador and discussing a quid pro quo deal, tapping the Trump phone lines became a legal and responsible action for law enforcement to take.

This goes well beyond basic criminality. We're getting into serious sedition, high crimes, and treason territory here.

Agreed, once Flynn promised the Russians he would get the sanctions lifted in return, for (what did he get again?) we passed the threshold to hit sedition, high crimes, and treason. Making a deal with the "Empire of evil" to influence an American election is treason of the highest order.

The FBI and NSA aren't "accidentally losing" hundreds of text messages and emails because nothing is at stake.

Keep flinging the bullshit, comrade, none of it is sticking to the wall. Even better, Mueller is closing the noose.

Did you know Manafort worked for the Podesta Group in helping seal up the Uranium One deal, and the Podestas worked directly with the Russian government to do it?

How about we let the liberals at Fox News explain the Uranium One deal to you before you embarrass yourself any further.

Re: How is this news for nerds?

[DNS-and-BIND]

Negative, that is fake news. Fusion GPS was contacted by a GOP member (Washington Free Beacon) for opposition research. The Steele Dossier was separate. There were two separate work contracts for Fusion GPS. The media / DNC are pushing that narrative, but it's flat out wrong. The GOP didn't ask for the Steele Dossier, they asked for separate Opposition Research. The DNC / HRC campaign started the Steele Dossier.

Robert Mueller found such strong evidence of Trump colluding with Russia that he decided to chase down a couple of tax evaders instead. Fun fact: you know who wrote the infamous WMD memo that got us into the Iraq War? Robert Mueller. Yup, the same one. The smoking gun here.

Re:How is this news for nerds?

[elrous0]

At this point, everything seems to have been infected by the cancer of politics/social justice/etc.

It has infected even once sacrosanct common-ground pastimes like comic books, sports, videogames, etc. You can't even watch a football game anymore without some sports commentator or athlete jumping in to tell you how they feel about Donald Trump or the latest social cause of the week. You can't read a comic book where the lead character doesn't remind you on every other page they they're a strong lesbian-latino-trangendered-muslim who don't-need-no-man-to-help-them. You can't play a videogame that isn't tainted with protests about it being too violent, too white, too gay, not gay enough, etc. It's becoming almost impossible to escape to even one medium anymore without hearing anyone calling anyone else the most vile of epithets for disagreeing with them on politics or social issues. It's fucking exhausting.

At this point you could probably make a fortune just starting up a sports league, entertainment company, etc. that specially banned politics and social issues from its ranks. "A place where you can escape all that insane bullshit and just have fun" sounds so appealing right now.

Re:How is this news for nerds?

[dwpro]

Steele Dossier which was used as justification for FISA warrant to spy on the opposition campaign

As has been publish widely but you choose to ignore, there was other justification, specifically George Papadopoulos's drunken leak and the fact that carter page himself bragging that he was an advisor to the Kremlin.

It would be a dereliction of duty for the FBI to not spy on a political campaign that is a riddled with Russian intermediaries as this one. We don't even have all the facts yet and we've had 3 people plead guilty to lying to the FBI about these Russian contacts, including the deputy campaign chairman and the man who became the national security advisor. The campaign chairman is up to his eyeballs in debt to a Russian oligarch.

However, there may be something to this Uranium one thing, we'll see.

Also, I believe they found those missing texts.

it accuses Nunes of having never read the FISA app

[Camel Pilot]

Nunes never read the referenced document? I wonder if Nunes is a slashdot poster.

I wish they'd back off the Russia stuff

[rsilvergun]

and do more actual policy. The right wing corporate Dems seem to be trying to use this to try and win voters back without actually implementing populist policy (Medicare for All, universal college, a New New Deal, $15 min wage, ending the 8 wars, etc, etc). It's not going to work. Maybe if they were as good a fearmongering as the Republicans are, but they're not. Instead we're gonna get another 4 years of Trump + Republican Congress. Probably another big market crash out of all the deregulation that's going on right now.

Trump won for two reasons. First, Hilary took victory for granted and didn't campaign in the swing states (she always was an arrogant bitch). But moreoever Trump ran as a left wing populist. He promised Health Care for all, Jobs for all, good pay for all. He promised the government wouldn't just stand idle while the working class got slapped around by the Invisible Hand. Sure, he lied through his teeth. But when your opponent promised basically nothing, well, like the man said, what have you got to lose?

Re:I wish they'd back off the Russia stuff

[DNS-and-BIND]

The real secret was that American traitor who spilled the biggest secret to the dirty foreigners - to concentrate Russian efforts on the swing states. If only someone in Hillary's campaign had known that, she might have won Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. Live and learn!

Re:I wish they'd back off the Russia stuff

[quantaman]

and do more actual policy. The right wing corporate Dems seem to be trying to use this to try and win voters back without actually implementing populist policy (Medicare for All, universal college, a New New Deal, $15 min wage, ending the 8 wars, etc, etc). It's not going to work. Maybe if they were as good a fearmongering as the Republicans are, but they're not. Instead we're gonna get another 4 years of Trump + Republican Congress. Probably another big market crash out of all the deregulation that's going on right now.

The problem is ignoring the Russia stuff meant that Russia was able to wage a largely unopposed disinformation and propaganda campaign during the US election. And they potentially even colluded with and compromised members of the current administration.

The Dems need to expose and confront the Russian activities, especially since the GOP is more likely to cover it up than risk losing an election.

Trump won for two reasons. First, Hilary took victory for granted and didn't campaign in the swing states (she always was an arrogant bitch).

No argument that Clinton was a terrible campaigner but the two major email hacks (not to mention all the astroturfing) almost certainly had a large effect relative to the margin of victory.

But moreoever Trump ran as a left wing populist. He promised Health Care for all, Jobs for all, good pay for all. He promised the government wouldn't just stand idle while the working class got slapped around by the Invisible Hand. Sure, he lied through his teeth.

And if it weren't for the massive Russian smear campaign voters might have cared about the fact he was obviously lying.

Re:I wish they'd back off the Russia stuff

[nonBORG]

My opinion (as a republican, I know just saying that means I will get troll down voted.) is that if the Dems did forget Russia they may actually win the Mid terms.

I am sick of Russia crap, I think most people are sick of it. Also if the Dems win and get 60 seats they would impeach Trump, they just need to get the numbers they would decide what to impeach him for after the vote.

They seem to have lost having any identity that is not just Anti Trump.

Trump is Arrogant, rude, speaks his mind, and wrong on plenty of stuff but he is also awesome and gets stuff done. He is non political and part of that is he just says and does what he thinks. Not to keep some political lobbyists happy.

Also the market will probably crash but I am hoping after the midterms, just because of the fact that it needs a bit of a reset. The recent pull back was just normal market mechanics which went 1/2 way down to from the 50 to the 200 day moving average. Crashes are hard to predict when but I would rather have Trump steering the ship when it crashes than anyone else, he has had plenty of experience in dealing with companies that go bankrupt. He wont panic like G W Bush did.

Re:I wish they'd back off the Russia stuff

[93 Escort Wagon]

But moreoever Trump ran as a left wing populist. He promised Health Care for all, Jobs for all, good pay for all.

Nonsense. Trump ran as the blowhard know-it-all, holding court and solving all the world’s problems from his usual barstool down at the local watering hole... and it worked.

Re:Sounds like old news to me.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. It's almost as if the President was obstructing the release of information from one side in a corrupt attempt at self-preservation.
#MAGA
Mueller Ain't Goin' Away

Mueller Time

[PopeRatzo]

Twenty-two indictments so far. Five convictions, and counting.

Over 100 Trump officials who have been unable to pass FBI background checks, including the President's son-in-law.

It took over 2 years for the Watergate investigation to nail Nixon. Special Prosecutor Mueller's been at it only 10 months.

Re:Mueller Time

[Tulsa_Time]

None of which is about Collusion with Russia to affect the election.

Re:Mueller Time

[PopeRatzo]

None of which is about Collusion with Russia to affect the election.

The indictments of the 16 Russian people and organizations are exactly about collusion. They were all about building a conspiracy case.

I'm old enough to remember when Republicans said, "There were crimes committed, but President Nixon knew nothing about it!"

Re:Mueller Time

[PopeRatzo]

Manafort's conviction has nothing to do with Trump.

Manafort hasn't been convicted yet, and the indictment unsealed this week have a lot to do with Trump. Manafort was in deep in debt to some very dangerous Russians and tried to help them in their war with the Ukraine while he was Trump's campaign manager. And THEN he had the RNC change their party platform making it more friendly to Russia. And then had his flunky Rick Gates commit bank fraud to try to get out from under.

So, two possibilities: either 1) Trump had to know all this was going on, or 2) Trump had no clue about the guy he hired to chair his campaign and that's even worse because those are the kinds of useful idiots the Russians love to cultivate.

I realize you guys will defend Trump to the last breath, because if he goes down, it shakes your entire worldview. But Trump is already the administration with the most indictments and convictions and officials resigning in disgrace in history. He's crooked and he's losing his mojo.

Re:Mueller Time

[PopeRatzo]

Those Russians that got indicted will never be tried because Russia won't extradite them.

They don't have to be tried. The indictments form the outline of conspiracy charges against people in the US who can be charged.

Now, there is no allegation in this indictment that any American was a knowing participant in this illegal activity.

Notice the part that says, "this indictment"? There have been new indictments coming every few days now. New guilty pleas. New Trump officials (and former Trump officials) cooperating with Mueller.

Every time there are new indictments, the alt-right hollers, "IS THAT ALL HE HAS?" as if the investigation was over. The investigation is going to go on for a long time and the Russian indictments create a shield around Mueller, protecting him from Trump firing him. The shit has barely started hitting the fan, and it's fun watching you all rationalizing and minimizing and pretending it's not happening. Oh, it's happening all right, and when it's over there will be a smoking crater where the Trumpublicans used to be.

Re:Mueller Time

[SuricouRaven]

Neither option looks very good for them:
1. Trump worked with Russian intelligence to gain an advantage in the election.
or
2. Trump's campaign worked with Russian intelligence, but Trump himself was kept in the dark about what his own campaign was doing.

Trump's response so far has been to divert the issue: He claims that all the evidence against him is fabricated by a conspiracy within the FBI - and not only he he not working with Russia,but Hillary is a Russian secret agent charged with stealing the country's uranium.

Re:Mueller Time

[drinkypoo]

Indictments of twitter trolls, downright laughable.

Have you noticed how many members of Trump's administration have already pled guilty and are now working with Mueller? Those are not twitter trolls. Those are people close to trump, working under his authority and direction.

Trump wishes that, too. As do the Russians (nt)

[Brannon]

nt

Re:Sounds like old news to me.

[ClickOnThis]

Further: Even if they included Page's response to Steele's leaks published by Yahoo instead of using the Yahoo to corroborate Steele ( someone RTFM for me...is that part of the GOP claim rebutted?) that's still smells like fruit of the forbidden tree to me. If the cops are investigating you for something and leak to the press that you've done all sorts of crazy shit, then use your public denials as grounds for a warrant to search your house...that wouldn't hold water at trial, would it?

From page 7 of the Democratic memo (emphasis in the original):

In its Court filings, DOJ made proper use of news coverage. The Majority falsely claims that the FISA materials "relied heavily" on a September 23, 2016 Yahoo! News article by Michael Isikoff and that this article "does not corroborate the Steele Dossier because it is derived from information leaked by Steele himself." In fact, DOJ referenced Isikoff's article, alongside another article the Majority fails to mention, not to provide separate corroboration for Steele's reporting, but instead to inform the Court of Page's public denial of his suspected meetings in Moscow, which Page also echoed in a September 25, 2016 letter to FBI Director Comey. [remainder of paragraph is redacted.]

It was Steele, not the FBI or DOJ, who leaked Page's story to the press. Steele was fired by the FBI in October 2016 because of that. Is any subsequent investigation of Page fruit from a poison tree? I'd say no. Keep in mind that Page had been on the FBI's radar (and in FISA warrants) for a long time before Steele leaked anything to the press.

Re:You keep using that word [collusion]...

[PopeRatzo]

Flynn's sentencing date was cancelled and now his guily plea is being withdrawn

Neither of those things is true. Flynn's guilty plea is still there and in force, and the new judge on the Flynn case has clarified his request and completely debunked the news that turned up in the alt-right media last week.

Re:Nunes did not - and advertised that

[Anonymous Coward]

The DOJ and FBI refused to comply with the House Oversignt comittee, even ignoring lawful subpoenas (this is getting into scary territory for a Constitutional Republic when unelected bureaucrats who despise their elected leaders refuse to obey them).

Yes, the FBI, that famously Democratic institution (pop quiz: identify the last Democratic director of the FBI). Getting their warrant signed off by four judges - two appointed by George W. Bush, one by George H.W. Bush, and one by Reagan, in that bastion of liberalness, the FISA courts.

The FBI states that it has met all of the subpoenas issued to it (even other House Republicans refused to sign onto Nunes's threatening subpoena letter). “We disagree with the chairman’s characterization and will continue to work with congressional committees to provide the information they request consistent with our national security responsibilities.” The FBI has given the committee hundreds of pages of requested documents and cleared McCabe and Strzok to testify.

It's just like the bogus ethics charges they filed against him that got him off the case for months until the ethics comittee had to admit there was nothing and Nunes could go back to work on this case

Yeah, it's totally ethical for a Trump transition team member to investigate the Trump administration for events that occurred before, during and after the transition. Totally. Nunes totally deserves an ethics prize.

I urge everybody to do what literate and responsible citizens should do:
1. Read the Nunes memo... 2. Read the Schiff memo ... read the Nunes response

Wow - we're in total agreement! Except it amazes me how a person with more than two brain cells could reach the conclusions you have after doing so. Literally every key complaint made in the original Nunes memo was false or highly misleading. "FISA application was fundamentally built on the dossier" becomes "started months before the dossier was even received, and it only made up a minor portion of the FISA application, and with multiple unrelated corroborating sources". "News article based on information from Steele was used to back up the Steele dossier" becomes "Multiple news articles cited only in the context of quoting Carter Page's response to claims about him". "Courts were not informed about Steele's funding and termination" becomes "FBI was proactive in keeping the court up to date with all information related to Steele, including funding and termination". And on and on and on.

And here we have the Nunes response memo literally confirming the rebuttals. We've gone from "The FISA court wasn't informed!" to "The font size was too small when they wrote ''The FBI speculates that the identified U.S. Person was likely looking for information that could be used to discredit Candidate #1's campaign"! Sneaky, sneaky FBI and their sneaky, sneaky font sizes! Heck, the Nunes response memo to the Democratic memo starts out by confirming that the investigation started in July 2016 (and offers no rebuttal to the claim that the Steele dossier wasn't received until September), arguing that the investigation was "then fueled" by the dossier. Apparently "then" is a two month gap against the self-described "adviser to the Kremlin". My favourite part of the reponse-response is #3:

However, four times DOJ repeated to the FISA Court (FISC) an incorrect assessment that Steele had not been a source for an earlier, September 2016 Yahoo News article by Michael Isikoff. In May 2017, before the final renewal application, Steele admitted in a publicly-available U.K. court filing to personally briefing numerous U.S. media outlets, including Yahoo News, in September 2016

Damn the FBI for not using their FBI Time Machine to go

Re:it accuses Nunes of having never read the FISA

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean this Trey Gowdy?

“There is a Russia investigation without a dossier,” Gowdy said. “The dossier has nothing to do with the meeting in Trump Tower. The dossier has nothing to do with an email sent by Cambridge Analytica. The dossier really has nothing to do with George Papadopoulos’ meeting in Great Britain. It also doesn’t have anything to do with obstruction of justice. So, there is going to be a Russia probe even without a dossier.”

Gowdy, who is not seeking reelection, remained resolute about the need for an investigation and pronounced himself “100 percent” behind Mueller. “Look, Russia tried to interfere with our election in 2016 with or without a dossier.”

Funny that the memo - and the response to the Democratic rebuttal - act as though the dossier is some core part of the Russia investigation, something that Gowdy fundamentally disagrees with. Where's your source that Gowdy "WROTE the FUCKING thing"? Because here's what I find Nunes himself saying:

Hours after the memo came out on Friday, Nunes gave an interview on Fox News during which anchor Bret Baier asked him if he wrote the memo. "Yes," Nunes replied, saying other Republican lawmakers, like House Oversight Committee chair Trey Gowdy, also contributed.

"Did you read the actual FISA applications," Baier asked, referring to the documents that the memo cites in part as evidence of improper conduct by US law-enforcement officials.

"No, I didn't," Nunes said, before adding that Gowdy was part of a designated group that reviewed the intelligence, took notes, and reported it back to committee members.

But hey... "wrote it" vs. "took notes", no real difference... And clearly the memo reflects Gowdy's view that the dossier has little significance to the Russia investigation as a whole! (/snark)

Re:it accuses Nunes of having never read the FISA

[93 Escort Wagon]

Before now, I’ve strongly disliked Nunez - but now I’m warming to him a little.

Daily Kos (a.k.a. Vox) mudslinging

[tomhath]

Vox was founded by Markos (Kos) Moulitsas, it has no credibility as a news outlet. It lives down in the mud with Huff Post and USA Today.

Re:Playing semantics

[apoc.famine]

And that's a) counter to the established facts, and b) now discredited based on the contents of this new memo.

Having read both, it's pretty impressive how terribly written and sloppy Nunes' was, and how decently well written and comprehensive this one is. Given the lack of detail in Nunes', it seems pretty clear that his was the more creatively cherry-picked of the two.

I'm honestly a little confused why Nunes would produce such obvious garbage. Didn't think the other side would get a rebuttal, or figured it wouldn't matter, since the right is immune to facts that go against their scary fantasy world?

Re: You keep using that word [collusion]...

[PopeRatzo]

URL please.

https://www.washingtonpost.com...