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ESR's Newest Project: An Open Hardware/Open Source UPS (ibiblio.org)
An anonymous reader writes:
Last month Eric S. Raymond complained about his choices for a UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply), adding that "This whole category begs to be disrupted by an open-hardware [and open-source] design that could be assembled cheaply in a makerspace from off-the-shelf components, an Arduino-class microcontroller, and a PROM...because it's possible, and otherwise the incentives on the vendors won't change." It could be designed to work with longer-lasting and more environmentally friendly batteries, using "EV-style intelligent battery-current sensors to enable accurate projection of battery performance" (along with a text-based alert system and a USB monitoring port).
Calling the response "astonishing," Raymond noted the emergence within a week of "the outlines of a coherent design," and in an update on GitLab reported that "The response on my blog and G+ was intense, almost overwhelming. It seems many UPS users are unhappy with what the vendors are pushing" -- and thus, the UPSide project was launched. "We welcome contributors: people with interest in UPSes who have expertise in battery technology, power-switching electronics, writing device-control firmware, relevant standards such as USB and the DMTF battery-management profile. We also welcome participation from established UPS and electronics vendors. We know that consumer electronics is a cutthroat low-margin business in which it's tough to support a real R&D team or make possibly-risky product bets. Help us, and then let us help you!"
There's already a Wiki with design documents -- plus a process document -- and Raymond says the project now even has a hardware lead with 30 years experience as a power and signals engineer, plus "a really sharp dev group. Half a dozen experts have shown up to help spec this thing, critique the design docs, and explain EE things to ignorant me." And he's already touting "industry participation! We have a friendly observer who's the lead software architect for one of the major UPS vendors." Earlier Raymond identified his role as "basically, product manager -- keeper of the requirements list and recruiter of talent" -- though he admits on his blog that he's already used a "cute hack" to create a state/action diagram for the system, "by writing a DSL to generate code in another DSL and provably correct equivalent C application logic."
He adds to readers of the blog that if that seems weird to you, "you must be new here."
Calling the response "astonishing," Raymond noted the emergence within a week of "the outlines of a coherent design," and in an update on GitLab reported that "The response on my blog and G+ was intense, almost overwhelming. It seems many UPS users are unhappy with what the vendors are pushing" -- and thus, the UPSide project was launched. "We welcome contributors: people with interest in UPSes who have expertise in battery technology, power-switching electronics, writing device-control firmware, relevant standards such as USB and the DMTF battery-management profile. We also welcome participation from established UPS and electronics vendors. We know that consumer electronics is a cutthroat low-margin business in which it's tough to support a real R&D team or make possibly-risky product bets. Help us, and then let us help you!"
There's already a Wiki with design documents -- plus a process document -- and Raymond says the project now even has a hardware lead with 30 years experience as a power and signals engineer, plus "a really sharp dev group. Half a dozen experts have shown up to help spec this thing, critique the design docs, and explain EE things to ignorant me." And he's already touting "industry participation! We have a friendly observer who's the lead software architect for one of the major UPS vendors." Earlier Raymond identified his role as "basically, product manager -- keeper of the requirements list and recruiter of talent" -- though he admits on his blog that he's already used a "cute hack" to create a state/action diagram for the system, "by writing a DSL to generate code in another DSL and provably correct equivalent C application logic."
He adds to readers of the blog that if that seems weird to you, "you must be new here."
If a UPS is going to burn down my house, I want it to be a UL listed device. The insurance company is not going to give a shit if I was super careful in putting it together. They're kinda pissy about homebuilt electrical stuff that burns down your house.
Every time I spend five hundred bucks on a replacement battery for my APC UPS I had the same thought: isn't there a better way to be doing this?
This is a cute project, but it's not what the world needs.
What we need is an abundance of programmable computers again.
This is one of a plethora of currently closed-source products that could stand some competition! Ignore the nay-sayers, of which there plenty, and continue to push the boundaries. We need guys like you, whether we know it or not...
There's hundreds of programmable computers platforms out there, you're just not looking hard enough.
#DeleteFacebook
In fairness, you're obviously not a technical person so your comment comes off as a bit snarky.
The exposure of this project is oriented toward programmers and electrical/mechanical engineers, not someone like yourself who runs Windows to play solitaire and browse Yahoo.
Nothing wrong with that, mind you, just that your comment is coming from a consumer perspective vs /. being a technical oriented site.
There is probably a lot of potential for open electronics instruments as well. Multimeters, oscilloscopes, low end audio and RF spectrum analyzers and such. Dave Jones has had a very well received (AU$ 644,674) Kickstarter project with the 121GW multimeter. It's not entirely open (the firmware is proprietary,) but the hardware is open (schematics, components details, etc.,) the MCU is an easy to deal with STM32 and the programming headers are deliberately easy to get at, so ultimately open source firmware will emerge.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
Shouldn't we be working on an open hardware/open source FedEx instead?!
#DeleteFacebook
It's all about the batteries. You can get a <$100 UPS which will last 2-3 years and keep a PC going until you can do a graceful shutdown, assuming you're in front of it. Then spend $40 for a new battery or buy a new one to get a few more years.
Or, you can get a full-blown generator or solar system which will keep the whole house up for possibly days.
The cost and unreliability of UPSs are the batteries. He suggests "deep-cycle marine gel batteries that will last next to forever," which is naive. Marine use is very different than UPS use - cycle life vs. chronological lifetime. No battery lasts forever, and those who want long-term backup for occasional outages (see: voice PBX systems) use flooded lead acid batteries..And that's just for hours - there's a generator involved longer term. Gel cells are better suited for lower current draws over a longer time, and are significantly more expensive than wet cels, per capacity.
What he seems concerned about is getting some warning about impending battery failure. You can fix that by doing regular deep cycle tests, but that shortens battery lifetime and makes for periods where the batteries are drained and you're taking a risk should the power actually fail.
Myself, I have a years-old enterprise class UPS from eBay, assumed the cost of getting new batteries, and will again in a few years.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Turns out APC already makes them with lithium batteries and Linux talks to most of them already.
Put the battery on the output side of the PS, not the input. The output of a computer PS is DC. Probably a couple of diodes is all that is necessary, and make it a battery charger also. UPSes are about 99% unneeded hardware.
.
Let's do this!
No?
Then i'll stick to tripplite UPSes.
If they fuckup. Tripplite pays.
If your homebrew ups fucks up.. You pay.
Buy an inverter charger of an appropriate size and a deep cycle storage battery and you can get hours of power off computing if need be. This whole subject has been tackled by the marine industry on housboats and RV where you don't want to run the generator all night. So you put in a pure sine wave inverter charger which has an automatic transfer switch so that when the utility power stops it takes the load from the battery and can also auto start a generator. Buy a charge controller and you can also do solar. I am given to understand that a lot of ambulances have this sort of tech also to power all the medical equipment. Indeed with the right sized battery (several hundred amp hours) you could keep a refrigerator running for a day or two. (depends on kinds of batteries). The only thing that is not included is the auto shutdown, but with high capacity batteries etc, it might not be needed (would work with a small generator for a small data center)
Raritan's licensing model and lack off VERY simple updates to let older models use this-century TLS encryption annoys me. I wish their was an open, or even half-open, IP KVM. There uses to be one.
I recently learned that one of the top makers of RC plane, car, and quadcopter controllers is open source, with a vibrant community, both in transmitters and flight controllers. That was good news. I can hack the heck out of my RC plane and quadcopter ("drone") now.
Very cool, but I have to admit that I'm 100% on laptop nowadays. I either work at the client site, or in my own office, and decided that I'd rather maintain one laptop instead of two desktops. With USB-C, you basically turn monitors into docks. It's just one or two cables and you go. No UPS necessary with a laptop.
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Right up until the proposed BOM says the main controller will be a Linux powered hobby grade SBC.
A microcontroller is much more suited to a UPS
Bulk of the consumer grade UPS are based off sealed lead acid - fairly idiot proof but only moderate charge capacity, limited peak draw capacity and limited life (normally the battery capacity has seriously degraded after two years of continuous service).
Making the battery user replaceable would be a big step in the right direction.
Shifting to Lithium Ion cells (preferably the iron phosphate variant) and applying a little de-rating will significantly improve the situation (requires a charge management circuit but these can be easily be sourced). The manufacturers' data sheets state to charge lithium ion cells to 4.2 volts per cell, keep the charge limited to 4.1 or even 4.0 volts per cell will dramatically increase the life of the cells (leave this as an exercise for the reader to research).
If you want to make the equipment "industrial rated" then component ratings need to be reviewed. Capacitors are available in various voltage ratings however if you want the equipment to last 10 years in +100F/+40C conditions then the voltage rating needs to be nearly double the normal operating voltage (there is a study done/sponsored by one of the US military branches on longevity and component ratings).
There is some fairly heavy engineering required on the power side of stuff and I don't believe ESR has yet to wrap his head around all the issues. Perhaps that is why he has put the call out for assistance.
If he want to optimize for durability and longevity he should use nickel-iron batteries.
It is often used in backup situations where it can be continuously charged and can last for more than 20 years.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
Since high school days (decades ago) oscilloscopes have always been a part of my essentially arsenal to aid in analyzing / designing tasks
An open-sourced oscilloscopes - preferably with expandable open options for users to add-on - would be very much welcome
Or we could jump to radioactive batteries. I would like a battery that would last 100 or more years, but that doesn't fit into planned obsolescence at all.
With advances in passive magnetic bearings, it is conceivable that a small flywheel UPS could become affordable with volume. Not ever likely to be as cheap as one with batteries up front, but they would last a long time. Though perhaps that is an anti-incentive for companies to invest in it.
Admittedly ambitious, but community development of an open design would be very interesting.
"I paid both of my nuts for this, but at least my computer survived the great power outage of '19."
"It doesn't matter. I wasn't going to procreate anyway."
Very clearly Eric S. Raymond, who has repeatedly proven himself to be a moron, knows nothing about the innards of a UPS. The controller is only the most insignificant part.
You butthurt spergs can mosey on back to Yahoo.
This site isn't for the proudly technical ignorant jackasses such as yourself and the OP.
numbnuts
So, ESR found another project he can claim all the credit for. He even is as brazen as to mention it is other people doing the work and him doing minor things and claiming he invented it all.
He had some useful, if fairly obvious, things to say about the FLOSS ecosystem back in the nineties, and he's been riding that wave ever since, inflating his self-importance along the way.
"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
Tons of UPSs have user replaceable batteries.
There's already a product that does this, it's been around for years. Actually there are lots and lots of things like this out there.
The killer isn't designing the thing, that's relatively straightforward ("relatively" meaning you need a couple of experienced EEs, 6-12 months, and $50K or so to get the kinks worked out). What's not straightforward is getting it manufactured in quantity and UL rated. Open source works OK for software where the "manufacturing" cost is zero and there's no need for any safety certification, but less well for anything else.
And as such, instead of a single commercial pressure on the existing UPS makers to up their game, we will end up with a "background noise" of ever-changing, starting-then-fading, projects that become increasingly incompatible. And therefore instead of a united front that competes with the UPS makers, there will be loads of minor players that the big guys can safely ignore.
A better way to approach this would have been to introduce a mature product, build a user base and offer off-the-shelf solutions. Much like with RPi or Arduino (though admittedly, both of those suffer from fork-ism). Rather than to hail the coming of vapourware and getting bogged down in design arguments.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
I use a Synology raid (it has a 12v power brick), a Lenovo PC (with a 12v brick), a router (again a 12v power brick).
I don't need or want a big box that beeps and needs constant maintenance. I want a battery pack using disposible Alkaline batteries that sits between the power brick and the power input and cuts in when the mains power dies. It only needs to last 10 mins, that's pretty much the longest power cut we've had.
I'll stick a few of these on devices sensitive to power cuts and change the batteries when they test bad (should have a 5 year lifespan).
UPS's suck, the battery fail indicator never comes on until they are under load, so you can never rely on them. They die regularly. They beep like crazy, and support legacy crap like serial ports to notify the servers and telephone sockets..... is this the 90's?
Whilst I don't want to appear negative and I wish this project well, I can't help observing that whilst the maker and free software world is full of very talented people when it comes to writing delightful user interfaces and making LEDs blink on and off, the heart of a UPS is some serious power electronics.
As someone who did a fair amount of power electronics many years ago at University I can see that designing and constructing an efficient inverter for a UPS is a none-trivial task. Further, if the inverter isn't efficient then users will end up spending more on extra electricity than they saved by not buying a UPS from an existing supplier. And this is before we come to the very considerable question of safety!
Of course, the power electronics could be assembled industrially and then sold as something to which you add your own batteries, Arduino and case but then we have some thorny questions:
- Will these modules need to go through formal safety and EMC approval (an expensive process)?
- Are there going to be different versions for different power levels and if so how many?
- Is this project for North America only or will versions be needed for those parts of the world with 220-240V?
I suppose that a half way house would be to supply bare PCBs and perhaps specially made inductive components and let people assemble it themselves. I think that in most parts of the world this wouldn't require any paperwork (electronic components are usually just that - components). In such case I am sure a web page would soon spring up tracking the number of electrocutions and fires! Probably best to get the PCBs produced and sold from a less litigious country than the USA!
1) skip the fucking usb. Go with network. Or at least allow a usb/network adapter. 2) it is long past to have a direct dc line from battery to going past computer power supply. Converting from DC to AC and back is so inefficient. Instead have 48V connector and let power supply take it down. 3) ideally, rack mountable.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
normally the battery capacity has seriously degraded after two years of continuous service
As someone whose job it is to monitor industrial UPSes at a major hazard facility, let me say: WTF ARE YOU DOING! You should be easily able to get a UPS to run for 5 years unless you're horribly abusing it environmentally or electrically.
Unless you're defining "seriously degraded" as below 90% or something silly like that. Or listening to the vendor's sales guy, that's another expensive mistake.
The problem is the batteries. Lithium batteries have a distinct disadvantage in that they can die of old age - so even if you never experience a power failure, after a couple of years, the batteries have degraded, just by being 2 years older.
Lead-acids do not have this problem, but they do have problems when they're not treated right, which shortens their lifespan. Basically a lead-acid's lifespan is determined by its use - the more deeply you discharge them, the shorter their lifespan. That's a big difference between the ISL batteries in your car (ISL - ignition, starting and lighting) and deep-cycle batteries. ISL batteries are designed to offer high currents for short periods of time (i.e., ignition and starting), but cannot take much discharge. Even in the deep of winter, a heavy start of a modern computer-controlled car will take less than 1% of its capacity, delivered over the 30 seconds it takes to crank. But don't you dare run it below 50% or you will run into problems.
Deep cycle batteries are designed for lower peak currents over a longer period of time and can tolerate deeper discharges. (But none can take to 0%).
Unfortunately, a UPS demands both high peak currents and deep discharges, so either kind of battery is poorly suited.
Lithiums are great, but with their limited lifespan, are really not suited for standby applications - they really hate sitting on charge continually. There's a reason why lead-acids are still around, and still used in a lot of standby applications. A float charger is dead simple, they tolerate that well, and if you design it right, the standby load can be low that it really doesn't tax them.
The last UPS battery I had, I realized I had changed 10 years ago before failing last year.
APC. That's what he is doing.
There's someone still actually using Google+? Astonishing!
As in the subject dansdata made a ghetto ups.
http://www.dansdata.com/diyups.htm
normally the battery capacity has seriously degraded after two years of continuous service
As someone whose job it is to monitor industrial UPSes at a major hazard facility, let me say: WTF ARE YOU DOING! You should be easily able to get a UPS to run for 5 years unless you're horribly abusing it environmentally or electrically.
Unless you're defining "seriously degraded" as below 90% or something silly like that. Or listening to the vendor's sales guy, that's another expensive mistake.
Didn't realize you were using *consumer grade* UPSes at your major hazard facility. Where is that located exactly, again?
The reason they use SLA batteries instead of lithium is safety. The equivalent size lithium battery needs careful balancing, charging and venting capability in case of a fault.
It's by no means impossible to do, just much harder than with SLA that will take all kinds of abuse.
There are already lots of open "power wall" systems that provide home energy storage. Most are open (not enclosed) to avoid venting issues, and use off the shelf BMS and inverters. They would be a good place to start though.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Not being an EE, how can the OpenUPS be modified to accommodate 100-240V AC input, and batteries enough to handle a desktop workload -- 23"+ LED monitor plus desktop (not laptop, which already has a battery) computer. I'm thinking the 4 AA-style batteries aren't going to cut it.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
There have been DIN mounted UPS controllers for years where the user sets up the batteries. I had this back in 2004 for a solar car conversion with several 140Ah deep cycle lead acids in the back. It was the old school way, but there much be someone making a LiIon suitable charger now rather than the trickles.
Do you mean the OpenUPS? It's DC only, and one of the hardest parts of ESR's UPS is the AC part. He needs it to run things like monitors that typically are not available in DC versions.
The AC part can be designed a number of ways, but from ESR's requirements it sounds like line interactive is required. The simplest way to do that is to take AC mains and convert it to DC. Use the DC to feed a DC to AC converter that produces the output AC voltage, and have a switch over mechanism in case the AC input goes away. Big caps to cover the gap during the switch over period. The DC also charges the battery when required.
As well as providing very good isolation of the output from the input, this method also makes it easier to handle various AC voltages and frequencies. The down side is that it is less efficient and much more complex than a simple switch-over system.
Designing such a system that can safely handle 1000W peak and say 500W continuous is not trivial. Getting it certified as safe is very expensive. Even the equipment to test such a design seriously will run into many tens of thousands of Euros/Dollars.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
You don't let "makers" mess around with mains electricity and power electronics. Jesus fucking Christ.
I have an old APC Smart-UPS 1500 (the black version that Dell sold, bought at a blowout price from TigerDirect back in the day), and one thing I found was that the default hair-trigger response was murder on my batteries, due to a daily power grid switching transient that would unnecessarily trigger the unit for a few seconds. Setting the sensitivity to low made a huge difference in battery life, and another thing that helped was to switch to monthly self-tests instead of weekly. I do a manual battery calibration once a year.
The 1500 is a bit overkill-ish for my setup, but it has served me well.
Oh, no! You have walked into the slavering fangs of a lurking grue!
You do know that Heathkit was selling build-it-yourself color TV sets decades ago, when vacuum tubes ruled and LCD flat panels hadn't yet even been dreamed up? There were much higher voltages involved there (hundreds of volts for plate supply, tens of kilovolts for the CRT anode), and even today there's a hell of a lot of DIY in the amateur radio world, where you still have high voltages to deal with.
Oh, no! You have walked into the slavering fangs of a lurking grue!
I can see that you are a smart man that wants to stay a step ahead. What if I told you, you could bypass the lines by sending your money NOW?! That's right! You don't have to wait. Act now!
So is the circuit design
The hard part is the fabrication
Making a device like this that will actually stand up to years of use requires custom PCBs and a rugged case, with sufficient cooling to prevent overheating
Most software hackers can easily handle the programming. Most people with a good grasp of circuit design can design the electronics
Actually making one that safely functions for years is a lot harder
And yes, I make prototype stuff like thus, but I have a home machine shop
If you just want 30 seconds to shut down a PC, you are better served with a basic, certified UPS. Newegg has several under $75, and a 255 watt one that starts at $39.95.
everything he wants is avaialble right now, you can buy inverters (pure sine wave) in any size you want up to 10kw or more. Then you can buy a battery charger that is able to handle the way the battery likes to be charged as well as batteries of whatever kind you can afford with up to more that 10kwh of capacity. All this is done in the marine and RV industry extremely often (in both cases you want to be able to have a period where the generator is not running and still have power). All that is really needed is the usb auto shutdown factor but with the larger battery capacity it probably should be based off the battery voltage which inverters have but might require some work to get the capability to shut down the systems. Actually if you look at it I have investigated a ups for the fridge, would probably cost less than 1k for 12 hours of run time. (using agm batteries more with lithium batteries)
It is not clear why working to duplicate the inverters and chargers used on boats, rvs, and ambulances makes a lot of sense.
Use power tool batteries. The bigger ones have plenty of energy (18V 5Ah). For many people it's perfectly fine to share a battery between the UPS and an infrequently used drill, which amortizes costs. Ideally one of the tool companies would even pick up manufacturing. There are some multi-battery tools already if you want to really have fun.
https://www.ryobitools.com/pow...
https://www.ryobitools.com/out...
Maybe they're using Chinese batteries. We often got seven years out of our Panasonic ones, but my boss wanted to save money about five years ago. Some of those Chinese batteries are on their third generation already. We've played around with a big desulfator on the new Chinese batteries, and can get about 0.15 V more out of them after a week of mucking with them but the labor cost makes it just not worth it. 0.15 V more might not sound worth it, but from a few tests I did, that was about 20% more capacity.
Not the GP, but I fail to see a problem with that. Apart from the one time I was dumb enough to buy an APC UPS, all the other UPSes have been by cyberpower and lasted at least 5 years. I generally have them plugged in constantly and I'm running my computer more or less all day every day.
As the GP said, if it's not lasting at least 5 years, then you've probably done what that other AC suggested, bought from APC.
For IP KVM, I don't remember offhand who it was. No longer available, though.
For RC transmitters, Frsky. At least one Frsky transmitter is also sold as a Turnkey. For flight controllers, look at Cleanflight, betaflight, and inav. They are all interrelated, each with a different focus. They run on boards such as the AnyFC F7, which is open.
That should be Turnigy, not Turnkey. Darn autocorrect.
Unfortunately, a UPS demands both high peak currents and deep discharges, so either kind of battery is poorly suited.
If you overspec your battery, you can have low (relative to spec) peak current and deep discharges. The trade-off is a gigantic and heavy battery, which you can tolerate in certain situations.
If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
Yeah it’s for a crusty bunch of Digg-wannabes to hangout.
Plus, charging an SLA battery is much simpler so it seems like the correct solution for a homebrew project. We tried to make a back-up lighting product we sell much smaller by replacing the 7 Ah SLA battery with a Lithium one, and even our engineers, that including a guy with an EE degree from MIT, couldn't get it quite right. We ended-up buying a laptop charger part from Dell that they use on their laptops to charge the battery. Dell is almost out of stock on that part so we're going to have to reengineer it with a different size board that will cost us >$50k to make a different injection mold for the plastic case.
P.S. The DeWalt Portable Power Station is really, really close. I have no idea why they don't allow it to run like a UPS.
I learned the hard way that APC just plain sucks. Not just preference--but dangerous-burn-down-your-place-because-their-over-temperature-test-breaks.
But after much research switched to using Eaton UPSes. Other than having to mod them myself to install quieter fans, I have zero complaints--they have nearly all the features ESR is complaining about lacking.
It makes more sense just to dedicate an inverter to each load which needs one... and use OpenUPS. Only being DC isn't a problem now that inverters are cheap.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The words "makerspace" and a UPS using mains AC and high current DC don't really go together to be honest. I've seen "makerspace" designs that are just waiting to electrocute someone [water pumps in the box with electronics, stripboard for AC etc].
It does strike me as it's being looked at as a software project first which is the wrong way round. I also can't see how they can deliver something like that cheaply to be honest.
Finally - more and more people are using laptops and tablets which sort of already have a UPS inside - it's called a "battery"...
Has anyone ever collected on damaged equipment plugged into a UPS? I figure the rate of occurrence is incredibly low, the flaming hoops that you have to jump through to collect are incredibly tight, or the depreciation on equipment heavily discounts the loss.
I'm not that impressed with disk drive warranties either. I've seen drive replacements that amount to a discount off the nobody-pays-this-list price of a new hard drive, ending up no cheaper than the street price, or an offer of a refurbished drive with an unknown past.
Does ESR really consider UPSs to be the 'next big thing' as ever more users transition to devices with built-in batteries (laptops and tablets) from devices that would benefit from a stand-alone UPS (like a desktop or server)?
So I guess the goal is 'everything open source' and then we won't need manufacturers, we'll all just download WIKI-how pages, round up some raw materials, and head off to a makerspace to build our next cellphone or TV set?
Ken
> there is a study done/sponsored by one of the US military branches on longevity and component ratings
can you link the study? or provide a title?