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Ask Slashdot: Can FOSS Help In the Fight Against Climate Change?

dryriver writes: Before I ask my question, there already is free and open-source software (FOSS) for wind turbine design and simulation called QBlade. It lets you calculate turbine blade performance using nothing more than a computer and appears compatible with Xfoil as well. But consider this: the ultimate, most efficient and most real-world usable and widely deployable wind turbine rotor may not have traditional "blades" or "foils" at all, but may be a non-propeller-like, complex and possibly rather strange looking three-dimensional rotor of the sort that only a 3D printer could prototype easily. It may be on a vertical or horizontal axis. It may have air flowing through canals in its non-traditional structure, rather than just around it. Nobody really knows what this "ultimate wind turbine rotor" may look like.

The easiest way to find such a rotor might be through machine-learning. You get an algorithm to create complex non-traditional 3D rotor shapes, simulate their behavior in wind, and then mutate the design, simulate again, and get a machine learning algorithm to learn what sort of mutations lead to a better performing 3D rotor. In theory, enough iterations -- perhaps millions or more -- should eventually lead to the "ultimate rotor" or something closer to it than what is used in wind turbines today. Is this something FOSS developers could tackle, or is this task too complex for non-commercial software? The real world impact of such a FOSS project could be that far better wind turbines can be designed, manufactured and deployed than currently exist, and the fight against climate change becomes more effective; the better your wind turbines perform, and the more usable they are, the more of a fighting chance humanity has to do something against climate change. Could FOSS achieve this?

23 of 154 comments (clear)

  1. Unless your computer is powered by 100% renewable by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 2

    The best way to fight climate change with it is to turn it off.

  2. Of course by wyattstorch516 · · Score: 3, Funny

    FOSS can solve the hunger crisis, cure all disease, and anything else your imagination wants to believe.

    Reality may be different however.

  3. Genetic Algorithms by Edis+Krad · · Score: 4, Interesting

    You get an algorithm to create complex non-traditional 3D rotor shapes, simulate their behavior in wind, and then mutate the design, simulate again, and get a machine learning algorithm to learn what sort of mutations lead to a better performing 3D rotor. In theory, enough iterations -- perhaps millions or more -- should eventually lead to the "ultimate rotor"

    You're describing Genetic Algorithms. It's a fairly old technique. It shouldn't be too hard to implement it. The problem here is not FOSS, it's computational power. You need quite a lot of CPU time to run all the simulations and evolve the solution.

    Some sort of distributed computing framework like INSERT_PROJECT_NAME@home would work. But then you'd have to convince everyone to use it....

    1. Re:Genetic Algorithms by jrumney · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's a fairly old technique.

      Yes. Back in the day we called it "trial and error". It is the most unscientific approach to solving problems that you can get. But computers have the advantage that doing it a million times to come up with something reasonable is feasible.

    2. Re: Genetic Algorithms by javaman235 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The actual problem here is "simulate the wind". Doing so requires a FOSS fluid Dynamics package that runs fast, and to my knowledge this doesn't exist. NASA opened up theirs a few years ago seeking speedup:

      https://www.nasa.gov/aero/nasa...

      But there's physics stuff computers can't simulate fast, else we'd have AI's designing robots now.

      --
      -The art of programming is the pursuit of absolute simplicity.
  4. Can FOSS Design The Blades... by BlueStrat · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...Such that they slice the birds into easy-to-swallow bite-sized pieces instead of mostly just pulverizing them?

    Summer BBQ season is nearly upon us, after all.

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  5. Cryptocurrencies are open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And they’re wasting tons of energy for funbux.

  6. Just before I turn off my computer... by presidenteloco · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A massive carbon tax would do a much more effective job at accelerating our transition off fossil fuels and slowing global warming.

    A massive carbon tax so that, to start with, Americans pay the same for gas as Europeans, who do just fine with that, and then keep increasing it.

    That's the best thing that would work, because except for tilting the playing field the way we have to move, it lets the free market take care of how to achieve the change.

    But unfortunately, an effectively large carbon tax would take politicians with brains, a conscience, and guts. So I'm not that optimistic given the garbage we currently have.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    1. Re:Just before I turn off my computer... by SuperKendall · · Score: 2

      A massive carbon tax would do a much more effective job at accelerating our transition off fossil fuels

      Because history has shown us that making an entire population poor greatly enhances care for the environment. Why, look t what a model for environmental protection East Germany was under communist rule! A large enough carbon tax, and everywhere gets to be East Germany. Fun times!

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    2. Re:Just before I turn off my computer... by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 2

      Hmm, Germany is on 100% renewables now, so that argument kind of backfired on you.

    3. Re:Just before I turn off my computer... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Informative

      Hmm, Germany is on 100% renewables now, so that argument kind of backfired on you.

      1. Germany is no where close to 100% renewable energy.
      2. East Germany switched to capitalism 30 years ago.
      3. Even today the ex-communist east is is dirtier per euro of GDP than the west.

    4. Re: Just before I turn off my computer... by elwinc · · Score: 3, Informative

      The current rate of warming is about 50 times higher than any warming cycle detected in the geologic record.

      So if we attribute the typical Milankovitch Cycle warming rate to be caused by natural orbital change, that would leave another 98% of the warming to be attributed to other, non-Milankovitch causes. Such as man-made global warming.

      --
      --- Often in error; never in doubt!
    5. Re:Just before I turn off my computer... by silas_moeckel · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We know how to make cheap plentiful power, we lack the will to do so. The same people that are running around yelling global warming also hate it. Fission works it's got far too many regulations to do cheaply. It gots far to many court delays to finance. Everyone in the US is a bespoke design but all 70's level tech. This is all by design you need far to much political capital to get one put in.

      Build them in factories with a design that's not 40+ years old. Hells we can use the spent rods as feedstock for modern designs.

      Carbon taxes are crap it's just a tax and a regressive one at that. Want change put in sensible PV incentives and billing. The entire concept of taxing things you don't like people doing is broken, an end run around the constitution to allow nearly unlimited federal power.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
  7. Betz's law by ThosLives · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "Traditional" turbine designs are already up to 80% theoretical maximum efficiency. Trying to eke that last 20% is not really going to save the planet since we're nowhere near using that much wind in the first place.

    That is - if you want to get FOSS to improve tech adoption, direct it to making things more affordable or accessible, not toward having more expensive higher-efficiency, higher-complexity devices.

    --
    "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    1. Re:Betz's law by ishmaelflood · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No Betz's law is that the efficiency of a system that extracts energy from a free flowing windstream cannot be more than 59.3% . The reason is that if you take more energy than that out of the incoming windstream, it all piles up behind the rotor (as a sort of handwavy explanation). It doesn't matter what the configuration is you won't beat that.

      The idea of using a GA to develop aero is of course not new, it is not hard to put a matlab or pythn program together to do this. Many years ago i had a GA script that optimised a structure using FEA that worked well enough.

      However, you need to define a set of genes to describe your shape. That might be tricky.

    2. Re:Betz's law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Perhaps GP was talking of 80% of that theoretical maximum of 59.3%. Your statements don't seem to be mutually exclusive to me.

  8. Machine learning by 110010001000 · · Score: 2

    "In theory, enough iterations -- perhaps millions or more -- should eventually lead to the "ultimate rotor" or something closer to it than what is used in wind turbines today."

    That pretty much sums up machine learning/AI today. A million monkeys on a million typewriters will eventually write Shakespeare. Except it won't happen.

  9. Technically yes, but that answer isn't useful by larwe · · Score: 2
    The evolutionary part of this software (the piece that says "let's vary parameters and see what results we get, and learn what makes the overall result better") is sort of the easy bit. It's the flow simulation part of it ("how do we create a simulation of the thing being tested, that will accurately transfer to real life") that's hard. Your evolutionary algorithm might be wonderful, and there's _lots_ of FOSS in that field, but it's worthless if it's optimizing a simulation that doesn't accurately model real life. An illustrative article about this was published just the other day https://www.popularmechanics.c...

    Fluid flow simulation is what one might call a military grade problem - efficient and accurate ways of doing it are either protected by commercial secretcy (because CAD software to design multimillion dollar yachts and aircraft is expensive) or actual military secrecy - because the problem you're solving is the same sort of problem that's being solved (for example) when designing SSBN propellers and hulls to minimize cavitation and make the ships run silent.

  10. Re: price the cost of energy so high by presidenteloco · · Score: 3, Informative

    The whole point of a carbon tax is:

    Energy != Fossil Fuels

    There are other ways we can harness solar energy, and geothermal energy. Our addiction to the drug of cheap fossil fuels is preventing us from getting to those other ways fast enough.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
  11. Re:Who is paying Slashdot to post this propaganda? by Pseudonym · · Score: 4, Insightful

    These "glboal warming" stories have pretty much hijacked the content on Slashdot.

    Slashdot has always done science stories. Anthropogenic climate change is science.

    I remember when almost all Slashdotters respected science. That was a long time ago.

    --
    sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
  12. Tux Racer by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2

    A free software package, Tux Racer, could help in the fight against Climate Change. No, I'm not talking about the Tux Racer game as we all, ahem, normally play it. This would be a version where the player moves a cardboard cutout 'tux' down the 'screen' (a big sheet of cardboard.)

    The energy savings would be immense, though Steam would lose a lot of revenue.

  13. Easy by Pseudonym · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If you want to save the world through free and open source software, there's an easy way to do this: stop building systems that waste resources.

    Don't use programming languages that spend 10 CPU cycles to do 1 cycle of work. Don't arrange things so a program is recompiled every time it is run. Write software that uses less RAM. Write replacements for spyware-laden crap. Do not support battery-burning DRM and tell them why. Encourage wired rather than wireless connections.

    Stop thinking like a coder and start thinking like an engineer.

    --
    sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
  14. No, because it's already done well enough. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 5, Informative

    There is no point in hunting for a more efficient rotor design for two reasons:
      1) The current designs are so near perfect efficiency that there's little to be gained for a lot of effort.
      2) Efficiency of the rotor, once it's "good enough" is not a big deal. When your "fuel is free" except for the cost of the equipment to collect it, the significant measures of efficiency become "power per dollar spent on equipment" and "energy per dollar spent on maintenance and site and equipment amortization".

    As with the carnot limit on how much of the energy in heat can be extracted by a heat engine, there is a theoretical limit to how much of the kinetic energy you can extract from the air (or other compressible fluid) passing through a given swept area. It is called the "Betz limit". It is16/27ths, about 59.3%. It occurs because extracting energy from the wind slows it down, reducing the amount of air passing through the mill. It works like the laffer curve in tax rates: If you take no energy as the wind passes by, you get no energy. If you take all the energy you stop the wind, so you get no energy. Somewhere between there's a percentage of extraction that gets you the maximum. For wind, that's 16/27ths.

    As you approach the Betz limit you reach a point of diminisihing returns. You can throw progressively larger amounts of money into the design of your mill to get progressively smaller amounts of additional energy. Or you can spend a little extra money to just make your mill a little bigger, which lets it sweep a lot more area and collect a lot more energy.

    Modern 3-bladed horizontal-axis wind turbines (HAWTs), running at a tip speed ratio in the 6 to 7 range, get within a few percent of Betz perfection. (Higher TSR would get you a little more, but above 6 you're starting to get to where a storm could make the airflow near the tips go supersonic, which is a problem structurally.) Scaling them up gives you more power per unit cost, so the utility mills converged to giant 3-blade HAWTs.

    Horizontal axis because vertical axis designs tend to be either FAR less efficient or have terrible issues with vibration (though the helical darrius seems practical for small mills). The main advantage of a VAWT over a HAWT for small (i.e. off-grid residential/farm/small business) mills is that HAWTs need to be made to track the wind but "furled" in a high wind to avoid damage, which makes them more complex and failure prone. (HAWTs may need furling, too, but they don't need tracking and they're easier to overbuild to reduce the need for furling).

    Three blade because one blade (like a maple leaf) and two-blade have vibration problems when yawing to face a changing wind. Three or more do not. More blades don't buy you any extra efficIency so three is the least expensive to build.

    If you want to improve wind turbines you'd do well to concentrate on less expensive construction methods, rather than trying to chase the tiny amount of efficiency that's left.

    If you want to improve other aspects of renewable energy, there's more room for improvement in control, storage, photovoltaic designs, direct collection of heat, and cooling (including radiative coupling to the four-degree kelvin cosmic background temperature through the "infrared window").

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way