Slashdot Mirror


Galaxy Without Any Dark Matter Baffles Astronomers (arstechnica.com)

A distant galaxy that appears completely devoid of dark matter has baffled astronomers and deepened the mystery of the universe's most elusive substance. The Guardian reports: The absence of dark matter from a small patch of sky might appear to be a non-problem, given that astronomers have never directly observed dark matter anywhere. However, most current theories of the universe suggest that everywhere that ordinary matter is found, dark matter ought to be lurking too, making the newly observed galaxy an odd exception. Dark matter's existence is inferred from its gravitational influence on visible objects, which suggests it dominates over ordinary matter by a ratio of 5:1. Some of the clearest evidence comes from tracking stars in the outer regions of galaxies, which consistently appear to be orbiting faster than their escape velocity, the threshold speed at which they ought to break free of the gravitational binds holding them in place and slingshot into space. This suggests there is unseen, but substantial, mass holding stars in orbit. In the Milky Way there is about 30 times more dark matter than normal matter. The latest observations focused on an ultra-diffuse galaxy -- ghostly galaxies that are large but have hardly any stars -- called NGC 1052-DF2. The team tracked the motions of 10 bright star clusters and found that they were traveling way below the velocities expected. The velocities gave an upper estimate for the galactic mass of 400 times lower than expected. The researchers described their discovery in the journal Nature.

14 of 200 comments (clear)

  1. Except rotation speeds have already been explained by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... in other ways. I remember reading a paper that explained exactly that away very nicely. I can't find it anymore, but I know it was mentioned in the Scientific American, many years ago.

    Our math still does not fit reality, especially energy-wise, but not because of the rotation of galaxies.
    It's just that in pop-sci, "dark matter/energy" is commonly presented as if our theories were right and it was just our observations of the universe that are wrong, when in reality, "dark matter/energy" is merely a convenient identifier for the discrepancy and is merely saying "we don't know yet". Implying that, obviously, it's our theories that are still wrong.

    So saying "without any dark matter" is already highly questionable. Rather, this galaxy might help us fix our silly theories, to match the cold hard reality that we simply observe. Not the other way around.

  2. Re:Except rotation speeds have already been explai by Megol · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You are wrong. Dark matter and dark energy are used as they are the only things that help explain our observations of nature.

    Yes our theories are still wrong. They will be until we can describe everything - something not likely to ever happen. That's science. What you are doing is hand waving without understanding the basics.

  3. Re:Except rotation speeds have already been explai by OneAhead · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If machinery would refuse to work for people who don't correctly understand their working principles, we'd be living in some kind of stone age.

  4. Science vs Religion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I am not GP, but:

    "Dark matter and dark energy are used as they are the only things"
    That statement is completely false. "Only" isn't a science word (it requires you disprove all other theories, even theories you haven't had yet), and neither of those claims is proven or even likely, given they don't address even currently understood data.

    "hand waving without understanding the basics"
    i.e. to paraphrase you make the claim that "dark matter and dark energy" are the basics of science, and that they are set in stone, and deeper understand requires knownledge/acceptance of these basics.
    Again this is not science. You will likely have to throw away a lot of theories built on false logic (e.g. QM, standard model, mass/gravity) if the current understanding of these hit a dead end. You cannot say "this theory is broken, yet must form the basis of better theories", because that's nonsense logic. A broken theory is broken, it must be wrong.

    "You are wrong"
    And acceptance of mistakes is necessary for science, i.e. you might be wrong.

    Really the danger to science is people like you. You learn things as though they're true, you build your careers based on this, and when experiments point to faults, you gloss over the failure and defend the broken model. It's more religion than science.

    1. Re:Science vs Religion by Muros · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You may be correct that dark matter and dark energy may not be the only possible explaination, but the point Megol made still stands. OP claims that that science lays them out as fact and says our observations are wrong, which is complete nonsense. Dark matter/energy are modern equivalents of "here be dragons", we know something is going on but we are unsure of the exact nature of that something. Continuing observation is used to narrow down the possibilities. The article was about finding a galaxy that is extraordinary in that we can understand everything that is happening, the first time we can say that out of the approx. 400000000000 galaxies in the observable universe.

    2. Re:Science vs Religion by Daetrin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That statement is completely false. "Only" isn't a science word (it requires you disprove all other theories, even theories you haven't had yet), and neither of those claims is proven or even likely, given they don't address even currently understood data.

      You're confused. Dark matter and dark energy aren't concrete things. They're placeholders for the remainders that don't fit the currently understood data. They are the X and the Y in an equation we haven't yet solved. X and Y are in fact the "only" solutions to the equation, because that's a tautology. The solution to the equation is the solution to the equation. But because we don't know what they are they could turn out to be almost anything, or a combination of things. There are a lot of theories as to what they might be, but none of them is definite, and none will be until we gather more data.

      You cannot say "this theory is broken, yet must form the basis of better theories", because that's nonsense logic. A broken theory is broken, it must be wrong.

      All of science is based on "broken" theories. Copernicus' ideas were wrong, but they led to Galileo. Galieo's ideas were wrong but they led to Newton. Newton's ideas were wrong, but they led to Einstein. Einstein is probably also wrong, and we're not quote sure what the next wrong theory will be. And yet those and the many other wrong theories have led to better things. Improved theories and actual engineering improvements.

      Satellites can be launched into orbit using only Newton's "broken" theories, but it's Einstein's "broken" theories that allow accurate GPS using those satellites. The computer you are using to post to this site was built based on "broken" theories that nevertheless provided a stepping stone to new and better things.

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
  5. Dark matter is a kludge by bradley13 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Dark matter has always struck me as a kludge. It amounts to "we don't know WTF is going on, so here's our fudge factor". There is no evidence that dark matter exists, other than the fact that gravity on large scales doesn't behave the way cosmologists expect. Two other possibilities receive too little attention:

    - Our current theory of gravity does not apply on the scales we are observing, i.e., the theory is incomplete.

    - Physical laws are not constant. e are looking at very distant objects, and seeing them in the distant past. Perhaps universal constants are not, in fact, constant across large spans of space and/or time.

    So now they've discovered a galaxy where the kludge factor of dark matter is not needed. Maybe this will prompt more cosmologist to consider the alternatives...

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    1. Re:Dark matter is a kludge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There is a very promising theory by a Dutch theoretician (paper here), which can explain the observations without the need for dark energy / matter. I have seen the presentation of his work, and, as far as my understanding, it is based on idea that gravity is an emergent force, so-called entropic gravity Drupal.

    2. Re:Dark matter is a kludge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Dark matter has always struck me as a kludge.

      Astrophysicist (but not a cosmologist) here: this is true! In its favour, though, this makes "dark matter" an umbrella term that covers any phenomenon that fits the data. It might be stray, undetected, planet-sized objects; it might be some exotic neutrino variant; it might be little clumps of antiquarks; it might be one of any number of things. All these possibilities are referred to under the term "dark matter".

      On the particular possibilities you mention:

      Our current theory of gravity does not apply on the scales we are observing, i.e., the theory is incomplete.

      This is certainly possible, and some theorists work on it. My understanding, though, is that these approaches postulate energy (with an equivalent mass) resulting from large-scale gravitational fields; that is, you can think of this as a form of dark matter that arises from the gravitational field itself.

      This sort of approach has trouble explaining the formation of small-scale dark-matter halos, which depend on some kind of dark-matter self-interaction. It's also incompatible with the example in this article: if "dark matter" results directly from gravitational fields, how can you have a galaxy without it?

      Physical laws are not constant. e are looking at very distant objects, and seeing them in the distant past. Perhaps universal constants are not, in fact, constant across large spans of space and/or time.

      If this were the case, we'd expect the rotation curves of nearby galaxies to be well-behaved, while more distant galaxies would show gradually increasing evidence for the influence of "dark matter". We don't see that. There are theories that fundamental constants do change over time - I've seen some interesting tests for the speed of light changing based on gamma-ray absorption spectra - but they don't work as an alternative explanation to dark matter.

  6. Re:Except rotation speeds have already been explai by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    There are enough unrelated discrepancies in our observations, that can all be explained by dark matter or dark energy (making up a consistent fraction of the universe in all cases), that I think it's safe to say there's probably something to it. Especially when we know the Standard Model in particle physics is flawed, and many extensions happen to contain viable dark matter candidates.

    For dark matter specifically, I would say the smoking gun is the aptly named Bullet Cluster. Two galaxies colliding, ordinary matter interacts and gets slowed, dark matter doesn't interact and gets separated from the ordinary matter, and then the dark matter and ordinary matter components can be observed separately (ordinary matter from ordinary photons, dark matter from its gravitational lensing effect on photons coming from galaxies behind the cluster).

  7. Re:Except rotation speeds have already been explai by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Dark matter and dark energy are used as they are the only things that help explain our observations of nature.

    Not "the only things that help explain our observations of nature", but rather, "the best things physicists have currently considered that help explain our observations of nature". The OP is right, it's not proven by direct evidence, so it's basically a placeholder for "we don't know, here's a guess of a possibility". The more we do know, the less likely it looks as an explanation, it's just that no better explanation has caught on yet. But in terms of evidence, it's certainly at the gods granted fire to mortals level of explanation. At best, you can say it might be possible. Just because we don't have a better explanation currently, doesn't make dark matter a good explanation. It's not competing with a whole lot. :)

    --
    The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
  8. Interesting by burtosis · · Score: 4, Informative

    Hereis a non paywalled source. This is interesting because it is yet another data point that our understanding of gravitational forces on normal baryonic matter (regular stuff) can hold at at least a few kilo parsecs.

    While it's true we don't know if dark matter is an effect, or an actual stuff like wimps (weakly interacting massive particles), the evidence of uniform dispersion from gravitational lensing to kinematics while the uniformity still clumps in a gravitational way is starting to be convincing. A great example is the bullet cluster where the friction of the colliding gasses slowed the normal matter but the dark matter was virtually unaffected, the gravitational attraction was too weak and the dark matter stripped from the baryonic matter. But further, computational models consistent with measurement rely on dark matter to have a cooling effect which wouldn't work (or it's not at all clear anyhow) if it wasn't particle like. If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on a weakly interacting particle.

  9. Captain pedantic here by sjbe · · Score: 4, Informative

    This suggests there is unseen, but substantial, mass holding stars in orbit. In the Milky Way there is about 30 times more dark matter than normal matter.

    This is an improper statement of what we actually know. It's like saying a UFO must be an alien from another planet while forgetting what the U stands for. We have close to NO IDEA what the phenomena we call dark matter actually is so saying there is 30X as much of it is a nonsensical statement. It could be some sort of matter but we are not at all certain of that. You could say that our current models of gravitation due to matter only explain a few percent of what we see and that would be an accurate statement of what we know. It's possible that the 30X statement is correct but we don't know that yet. If "dark matter" ultimately turns out to be some flaw in the model of general relativity or the like then saying there is 30X as much dark matter as "normal" matter will sound idiotic. If we want to talk in terms of force then fine - saying there is 30X as much gravitational force makes perfect sense.

    Short version. We don't know what it is so it's illogical to keep saying how much of it there is until we know what it is.

  10. Engineering is a subset of science - sort of by sjbe · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Please, note that there is are some very powerful distinctions between practical engineering and the predictive power of science.

    There are but literally every bit of engineering is based on scientific evidence. Whether or not the person doing the engineering fully and properly understands that science does not make it less true. Engineering doesn't work unless it is based on the ability of science to make predictions. There is science independent of engineering but not the other way around.

    People sometimes call engineering "applied science". I think that definition is incomplete. I think it is "applied science with economic and temporal constraints". Engineering is science applied to practical tasks within the constraints of a budget and with a deadline.