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Mark Zuckerberg Denies Knowledge of Non-Consensual Shadow Profiles Facebook Has Been Building of Non-Users For Years
It has been widely reported that Facebook builds profile of people even if they have never signed up for its services. However, in a hearing with the House Energy & Commerce Committee on Wednesday, when New Mexico Representative Ben Lujan asked Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg if he was aware of the so-called practice of building "shadow profiles", Zuckerberg denied knowledge of it. Here's the exchange: Lujan: Facebook has detailed profiles on people who have never signed up for Facebook, yes or no?
Zuckerberg: Congressman, in general we collect data on people who have not signed up for Facebook for security purposes to prevent the kind of scraping you were just referring to [reverse searches based on public info like phone numbers].
Lujan: So these are called shadow profiles, is that what they've been referred to by some?
Zuckerberg: Congressman, I'm not, I'm not familiar with that.
Lujan: I'll refer to them as shadow profiles for today's hearing. On average, how many data points does Facebook have on each Facebook user?
Zuckerberg: I do not know off the top of my head.
Lujan: Do you know how many points of data Facebook has on the average non-Facebook user?
Zuckerberg: Congressman, I do not know off the top of my head but I can have our team get back to you afterward.
Lujan: It's been admitted by Facebook that you do collect data points on non-[Facebook users]. My question is, can someone who does not have a Facebook account opt out of Facebook's involuntary data collection?
Zuckerberg: Anyone can turn off and opt out of any data collection for ads, whether they use our services or not but in order to prevent people from scraping public information ... we need to know when someone is repeatedly trying to access our services.
Zuckerberg: Congressman, in general we collect data on people who have not signed up for Facebook for security purposes to prevent the kind of scraping you were just referring to [reverse searches based on public info like phone numbers].
Lujan: So these are called shadow profiles, is that what they've been referred to by some?
Zuckerberg: Congressman, I'm not, I'm not familiar with that.
Lujan: I'll refer to them as shadow profiles for today's hearing. On average, how many data points does Facebook have on each Facebook user?
Zuckerberg: I do not know off the top of my head.
Lujan: Do you know how many points of data Facebook has on the average non-Facebook user?
Zuckerberg: Congressman, I do not know off the top of my head but I can have our team get back to you afterward.
Lujan: It's been admitted by Facebook that you do collect data points on non-[Facebook users]. My question is, can someone who does not have a Facebook account opt out of Facebook's involuntary data collection?
Zuckerberg: Anyone can turn off and opt out of any data collection for ads, whether they use our services or not but in order to prevent people from scraping public information ... we need to know when someone is repeatedly trying to access our services.
I don't understand why they left him off the hook so easily on this point. They could never collect consent from someone that didn't sign up for FB, so how is data collection could be legal?
"Zuckerberg: Anyone can turn off and opt out of any data collection for ads, whether they use our services or not... " ...how, precisely do I turn off and opt out of FB data collection without signing up for FB?
I'm rather curious.
-Styopa
Zuckerberg took maximum advantage of the fact that the questions came from people mostly lacking the technical knowledge to judge his responses. For example, when asked if Facebook could track users across devices, he acted as though he didn't know. Is there anyone here who believes that? I wish we could ask him a few questions on Slashdot!
Zuckerberg also said that Facebook doesn't share user data, just uses it to predict which advertisements users are likely to respond to. In that case I'd really like to see what gets sent when someone uses Facebook to sign into a third party website.
No, no, you have that backwards. Facebook uses everyone. Everyone does not use Facebook.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
That's not it at all. Let's say that 10 different people have you listed as a contact in their phones, and that those 10 people are on Faceplant. Facebook will create a shadow profile for you that connects you to these 10 people. And of those 10 people start sending you text messages? Facebook has that as well.
Wait, so you mean when people give an app full access to their contacts, the developer of that app has full access to their contacts? Shocking. I'm not seeing the troubling part, other than how quick people are to provide full access to apps on their devices. I don't think Facebook really has to connect many dots to suggest contacts, based on the crazy volume of data people provide to them willingly.
The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
They're not supposed to do that!
I guess that phrase pretty much sums up the reason for this Congress hearing's existence :)
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
He also is clearly not talking about shadow profiles here.
I think the term is "dissembling".
But, really, based on decades and decades of prior examples... he knows doesn't have to walk away smelling like a rose. He can walk away with the committee grumbling loudly, and they're still not going to do anything substantive to protect the hoi-polloi. Congress-critters generally are generally very reluctant to take steps which penalize billionaires to any significant degree.
#DeleteChrome
Your first point is basically what they were banking on. Most of Congress lacks the technical expertise to verbally spar with him on most of these issues. He is employing the tactic every software engineer ever has when talking to non-tech executives. Plead ignorance to simple but damning questions and give overly complex answers to others such that management won't understand and doesn't want to look stupid. I really wish they would have pulled in some of his engineering leads that HAVE to be familiar with the product implementation so he couldn't plead ignorance so easily.
You second statement I think he was just abusing the double meaning. They aren't sharing data in the sense of a business deal where they get paid for the data, but they absolutely know they share a ton of information with developers and anyone plugging into the site to provide "enhancements" to their service.
Yes..... But in the Slashdot summary Zuck seemed to be conflating "Shadow profiles of Non-Users" with
"History of pages viewed by IP addresses visiting Facebook.com without logging in"
Implying that the "Shadow profile" was required for a security purpose is deliberately deceptive (IMO).... If you visit Facebook.com you're an "Anonymous Facebook user"
Whereas a "Shadow Profile" is not IP addresses/"knowledge when someone is repeatedly trying to access our services."
BUT Shadow profiles are Personal Information collected through 3rd party sources about real persons who have never created an account or personally provided the information directly on Facebook.com.
"The information they keep about people was given to them voluntarily — either by users themselves, or by their friends and acquaintances. And what they now know, they are free to share — sell, give away, publicize, it is up to them."
I disagree. Most of the people who provided the data to Facebook had no idea that it could be used in the way it is. Most Facebook users still don't know what's being done with their data, and that's exactly the way Facebook wants it. To say that these people willingly handed it over is like saying people scammed during the savings and loan scandals should have known better. When is the last time you read three or four pages of fine print legalese before signing up to use a website, or when applying for a mortgage? Even if you're determined to read it, you won't fully understand it unless you're a lawyer.
And when they scrape copies of every text message you sent with your cell phone, back when they could do it without asking; when they collected the names and phone numbers of all of your contacts; when they kept logs of who and when you call; when they keep logs of where you've been day after day out using location data from your phone--when they store all of this information, combined it with data from your Facebook profile, then put AI engines to work on it--I would say that those actions were all illegal invasions of privacy. Zuckerberg and friends should be tried for illegal eavesdropping.
And when that's done, they should start on Google and Microsoft . . .
Some people worry about what will happen when computers get smarter than people. They don't realize that it's already happened. AI can process huge volumes of data that humans could never hope to handle. The insights/information that can be derived from the kind of data that Facebook and Google keep boggles the mind. But don't believe me. Google it for yourself and you'll see. Maybe start with 'psycho-analytics'.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
No, no, you have that backwards. Facebook uses everyone. Everyone does not use Facebook.
The first time I used a script blocker, years ago, on any of the "popular" sites, and especially news sites, there were many facebook tracking scripts. You didn't find out just how many there were until you started tracing them back to see who ran them.
So I am completely certain that Facebook collected the Users names of those who logged into the sites, collected data about everything they read, almost certainly collected their real names, and distributed that data directly to..... who knows?
Oh....... wait......... we do know now exactly who they were selling or giving almost everyone's data to. And no doubt there are plenty of others.
Seriously, if that festering asshole in charge of running the worlds largest weaponized data collection center isn't aware of the fact that they collected and weaponized data against everyone, and people believe him - well I have some some oceanfront property to sell them in Colorado.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.