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FTC Gives Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo 30 Days To Get Rid of Illegal Warranty-Void-if-Removed Stickers (vice.com)

Posted by msmash on from the enough-is-enough dept.

Matthew Gault, reporting for Motherboard: The Federal Trade Commission put six companies on notice in early April for illegally telling customers that getting third-party repairs voids the warranty on their electronics. You've seen the stickers before and read the messages buried in end user license agreements. Plastered on the back of my PlayStation 4 is a little sticker that says "warranty void if removed." That's illegal. Motherboard has obtained copies of the letters via a Freedom of Information Act request and has learned the names of the six companies that were warned. They are Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Hyundai, HTC, and computer hardware manufacturer ASUS. The letters were sent by Lois Greisman, the FTC's associate director of marketing practices, on April 9; the FTC has given each company 30 days to change its official warranty policies and says that it may take legal action against the companies.

22 of 133 comments (clear)

  1. Excellent! by dhaen · · Score: 2

    Yes!

  2. Who done it? by DigiShaman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So if someone tampers with the product in an attempt to fix it, then shoves it off to the manufacture, are they still on the hook for warranty repair? It's my understanding that these stickers are validate that the manufacture is the first to make repairs and not having to fix someone else's "fuck ups".

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
    1. Re: Who done it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The manufacturer is off the hook if they prove that third party mods/f-ups caused the issue; otherwise, warranty is still valid. Magnuson Moss exists for this reason, and is the same reason a manufacturer cannot void a warranty due to mods that don't contribute to the problem (e.g. properly installed cone filter), although they'll still try to scare you.

    2. Re:Who done it? by msauve · · Score: 2

      It's not illegal, the article is full of shit.
      br/>And, the FTC didn't say it was illegal, they included it among "questionable practices".

      What is illegal is basing warranty coverage on use of parts specified by trade name, unless replacement of those parts is free under the warranty. So, Ford can't say you have to use their oil and filters when changing oil (they can if they give free oil changes, though), and Hoover can't make you use their vacuum cleaner bags.

      That really doesn't apply to a PS4 - the warranty covers everything that's inside. The sticker thing would be more for something like a computer - where they say you have to buy RAM upgrades from the manufacturer. But still, the manufacturer could say "no upgrades at all," and use a sticker to enforce it. But the sticker itself is just a red flag, it is not itself illegal.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    3. Re:Who done it? by Sloppy · · Score: 2

      So if someone tampers with the product in an attempt to fix it, then shoves it off to the manufacture, are they still on the hook for warranty repair?

      Probably not, because you already framed the situation as the person had tampered with it. On the other hand, if instead of tampering with it, they maintained it or took it out and put it back in again, or did anything else that you can think of that you wouldn't describe as "tampering," then yes, the manufacturer would be liable for repairing their defect.

      Ooohh, did you see what I did there at the end, where I slipped in the word "defect?" That's what you did with "tamper." The fun happens when we combined both forms of bullshit: what happens if the user tampers with an item that has a manufacturer's defect? Now we're really jerking off!

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      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    4. Re:Who done it? by msauve · · Score: 2

      My understanding is that the law is that manufacturers are not allowed to void warranty, or imply that the warranty is voided, by repairs done by an outside party.

      These stickers imply that the warranty is voided and thus run afoul of the law:

      Nope. Try reading the actual act:

      15 U.S. Code  2302(c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by Commission

      No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumerâ(TM)s using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name;

      ...that one section is what all the bullshit is based on. The rest of the act basically says the warranty must be clearly written.

      Note: a mfgr doesn't have to allow third parties to do repairs (as long as they will do the repair "without charge under the terms of the warranty"). Nothing prevents a mfgr from not allowing opening, tampering with, or modifying a product. Nothing prevents a mfgr from disallowing the use of third party replacement parts (as long as they provide the parts "without charge under the terms of the warranty"). Nothing prevents a car manufacturer from saying the engine warranty is void if you hang fuzzy dice on your mirror. And, no, they don't have to prove that some modification broke things.

      A PS4 comes with a 1 year warranty which covers parts and labor "without charge under the terms of the warranty." They're within their rights, and not in violation of the law, to put a do-no-break sticker on the box.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    5. Re:Who done it? by Sloppy · · Score: 2

      What happens if an unauthorized user sabotages a piece of junk by tampering with it, in order to circumvent a defect that was caused by negligent engineering, and they do it outside of the explicit terms of the illegally-phrased warranty that was written by a shyster who was hired to work as part of the manufacturer's legal team but only got the job due to their fraudulently deceptive resume?

      What if I told you the the piece of junk was sabotage because the user had an urgent need that the device was advertised as being fit to address, but the reason they had that need was to facilitate another activity which had criminal intent?

      Hold it, not so fast. What if I told you their criminal intent, though, had as its victim, a really bad hombre who totally had it coming? But the bad guy's heirs were innocent children?

      Except the innocent children were bastard-born!

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    6. Re:Who done it? by omnichad · · Score: 2

      Note: a mfgr doesn't have to allow third parties to do repairs (as long as they will do the repair "without charge under the terms of the warranty").

      Great, but under the tie-in sales provision:

      (c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by CommissionNo warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer’s using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name;

      This means that if you open up the PS4 and install a bigger hard drive, you have not voided the warranty. Unless the warranty claim is caused by or directly related to the replaced hard drive.

      And any service which opens up the device to clean out dust would also not be a violation (since it's not a service provided without charge under the warranty). Opening the device for visual inspection - again, not a service provided for free under warranty. The sticker implies otherwise.

  3. Re:Establishing the system... by PAjamian · · Score: 2

    Your post would normally be modded funny, but in today's climate I think it wouldn't be wrong to mod this insightful.

    --
    Windows is a bonfire, Linux is the sun. Linux only looks smaller if you lack perspective.
  4. Re:Pointless by Faldgan · · Score: 4, Informative

    Even if they remove the stickers, they will just point to the ToS that says if you open your device, you're SoL in terms of warranty. Like Apple does.

    Unfortunately for the manufacturers that part of ToS is not enforcable since it violates the law. Despite having put some writing on their product and documentation and websites, they are legally required to honor that warranty.

    --
    Nathan Brazil?
  5. May not be illegal by russotto · · Score: 2

    The relevant law appears to be 15 USC 2302 (c)

    Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by Commission

    No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumerâ(TM)s using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name;

    The FTC left out the parenthesized portion in their letter, and it seems to me it's relevant. If repair service is provided without charge under the terms of the warranty, it's exempt from this provision. But I don't know the case law on this.

  6. Re:Hyundai by MobyDisk · · Score: 2

    Wow, and you still use that mechanic? I prefer mechanics how diagnose the problem, then charge me only for the fix. And lots of them will waive their labor prices if they fail to fix it.

  7. Re:Fine. by nospam007 · · Score: 2

    "If I was Sony, I'd remove the sticker and the warranty along with it. "

    If they remove the sticker, they lost the warranty anyway.

  8. Re:Fine. by JMJimmy · · Score: 4, Informative

    Most Western countries have a minimum warranty period on electronics - the US is one of the few who don't.

  9. A few years ago by pem · · Score: 4, Interesting
    A few years ago I bought a really nice ASUS desktop from Fry's. I scraped off Windows and loaded Linux.

    But after a day and a half, the fan got really loud and stayed that way. (Not the CPU fan; it sounded like the chassis fan was rubbing on something.)

    So I unplugged everything, hefted the desktop up onto the work table, and.... encountered the sticker.

    Rather than opening it up, I took it back to Fry's and told them there was a problem with it. When I entered the store with it, they logged it and gave me a receipt I could use to take it back out of the store when I was finished at the service desk.

    At the service desk, I explained that since the sticker disallowed me from opening the computer up, I was contemplating bring it back for a refund, but that even if I kept it, it needed to be quited down. The dude booted it up, and told me that Linux was unsupported, so of course I couldn't bring it back -- I'd already voided the warranty by scraping Windows off.

    After a couple of minutes of fruitless conversation with him and his boss, I just left (having proof in my pocket that I had taken the machine in). I got Fry's registered agent's information from the secretary of state, and emailed them, explaining that, if I needed to, I would explain to the credit card company that I returned the machine at the store since it was malfunctioning, and then they could sue me in small claims court for whatever damage they claim I did to it. They caved and issued a full refund after a couple of weeks.

    1. Re:A few years ago by Xenolith0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I love the amount of effort some people put into returning defective items. Anytime I purchase something that breaks within it's warranty or return period, I'll make a half-hearted attempt to get it fixed through "proper channels". I'll take it back to the store, I'll contact customer service.

      But as soon they tell me, "You have to pay shipping and send it back to us, and if we can confirm it's defective we'll issue a refund.... yada yada yada". Then, then answer is "Nope." And I login into American Express's website, click dispute charge. Done problem solved.

      As a company, you have two options:
      1) Replace the defective item, and get the dead one back to deal with the manufacturer.
      2) Bullshit me, and then you can eat the cost of the dead item and not get it back.

    2. Re:A few years ago by nightfire-unique · · Score: 2

      It's so bizarre.

      My personal rule is pretty simple: treat me with respect and honesty, and honour your committment, and I will remain a fiercely loyal customer. I will spend lots of money with you to the exclusion of your competition, and try my best to convince others to do the same.

      Attempt to screw me, and I'll do exactly the same as above, except the opposite.

      I literally can't fathom why a vendor would choose to gamble that they can screw a customer without consequences.

      --
      A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
    3. Re:A few years ago by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      I literally can't fathom why a vendor would choose to gamble that they can screw a customer without consequences.

      Because on balance screwing the customer is more profitable, at least in the short term.

      Retailer notices they are seeing a lot of returns that cost them money to process. Someone is charged with reducing returns. They do so by making the return process too difficult for most people to bother with. The few that end up costing them more don't outweigh the majority who just give up and get robbed.

      The manager who instigates this gets their bonus and then moves on. Five years down the line sales are lagging and they have a reputation for difficult returns. A different manager is charged with fixing this, so introduces an easy return policy.

      The cycle repeats.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  10. Re:Fine. by viperidaenz · · Score: 2

    Except that would be illegal.

    The onus is on Sony to prove someone else fucked with it.

  11. Re:what a loser by burtosis · · Score: 2

    He must be a coding genius to mechanically obstruct the fan with linux. Maybe he should have tried to losen it up with free BSD.

  12. Re:Establishing the system... by Darinbob · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Funny jokes are often insightful.

  13. Re:Fine. by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If I was Sony, I'd remove the sticker and the warranty along with it. If you can't guarantee the hardware hasn't been fucked with, you don't warranty it. Problem solved.

    This is an everyone wins scenario.

    Sony will feel like they did something. Corporationists will cheer at the triumph of corporations over evil governments. Americans will get someone to sue. And the rest of the world with mandatory warranties will be unaffected.

    Have at it.