Canada Facing 'Brain Drain' As Young Tech Talent Leaves For Silicon Valley (theglobeandmail.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Globe and Mail: Canada's best and brightest computer engineering graduates are leaving for jobs in Silicon Valley at alarmingly high rates, fueling a worse "brain drain" than the mass exodus by Canadian doctors two decades ago, according to a new study. The study, led by Zachary Spicer, a senior associate with the Munk School of Global Affairs' Innovation Policy Lab at University of Toronto, found one-in-four recent science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) graduates from three of the country's top universities -- University of Waterloo, University of British Columbia and U of T -- were working outside Canada. The numbers were higher for graduates of computer engineering and computer science (30 percent), engineering science (27 percent) and software engineering, where two out three graduates were working outside Canada, mostly in the United States. Nearly 44 percent of those working abroad were employed as software engineers, with Microsoft, Google, Facebook and Amazon listed as top employers.

Comments

Damn right

[50000BTU_barbecue]

If were young again, I would leave Montreal as if it were a medieval plague city.

Sky high taxes, dirty, gray downtown, corruption everywhere, low wages, endless regulations, terrible weather.

Young people! You are free! Enjoy what you can.

Re:Damn right

[110010001000]

Would you go to Silicon Valley though? You could go to Toronto instead.

Re:Damn right

[ceoyoyo]

Hey, a Montrealer!

The problem with Montreal is that when you're young you're willing to ignore all that stuff because people like to go out and party a lot and everyone insists that it's the greatest city on the planet. By the time most people realize there's a downside, they're so far behind everyone else that they can't leave.

Re: Damn right

[Anonymous Coward]

Like a parasite leaving the heart for the rectum.

Re:Damn right

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure you're not talking about Canada in general? I for one am sick and tired of the high taxes (especially income tax) - maybe a lot of people have already reached their limit and are leaving. After all, tech is a highly mobile job.

Re: Damn right

[110010001000]

OK, what about Vancouver? It is lovely I have heard.

Re:Damn right

[50000BTU_barbecue]

Yeah, that describes it quite well.

" everyone insists that it's the greatest city on the planet."

I think the reason for this is quite simple: when you're young, you're surrounded by young people. Pretty much anywhere is the greatest place to be when you're surrounded and accepted by young people. (Barring war and disasters)

I experienced this in the 1990s, I was a 20-something doing equipment installations in factories in Poland and the Czech Republic. In my spare time I went out and was immediately welcomed and accepted by the local young people and I had a blast.

Now I'm in my 40s and life is now a mix between being invisible or viewed with suspicion. It's like humans have the life cycle of a barnacle. A few years floating around with millions of baby barnacles, then decades being attached to a house and marriage, and only seeing the 4 or 5 nearest barnacles while the ocean passes you by.

Re:Damn right

[50000BTU_barbecue]

"Are you sure you're not talking about Canada in general?"

I haven't lived anywhere else in Canada, so I don't know.

"After all, tech is a highly mobile job."

It sure is, and from the employer's point of view this is great advantage, whereas as the employee, you have to physically move...

You must be young because selling a house and moving a family is not trivial. What do you do once you're in SV and somehow something better pops up yet somewhere else?

Re: Damn right

[alvinrod]

VC is a lovely city for sure, but itâ(TM)s getting to be just as expensive as SV. A lot of property is being bought up by Chinese investors for tax purposes so the costs are out of control and the demand hasnâ(TM)t changed because many of those properties go unused.

But if I were going to live in Canada, it would definitely be somewhere in BC. Lots of beautiful country up there.

Re: Damn right

[Type44Q]

Cucks or Canucks; I simply can't decide...

Re: Damn right

[Mashiki]

Vancouver is getting as bad as San Fran is, especially with the homelessness and rampant public drug use. It was bad 10 years ago, it's gone downhill since then. Seriously, I fully get why young Canadians are trying to GTFO from Canada. The taxes are high but you see no return. Whether it's at the city, provincial, or federal level. The government(federal and many provincial governments) would rather throw money at illegals entering the country then help people who desperately need help. A person can be disabled, qualify for disability, and not get anything at all. No financial help, no training, no tax deferments. The number of disabled who now live full-time and dependent on their parents has gone through the roof. Workers Comp(WSIB) in the most populated province in Canada(Ontario) almost never pays out to workers who are injured on the job(94% refusal rate), so good luck if you get a life changing injury. If you need low income housing, in most places the wait is between 4-10 years. Healthcare quality is decreasing in nearly every province. It's becoming a rampant politically correct mess, where people fear speaking out on issues because we have a kangaroo court system that can fine you into oblivion and leave you financially ruined so you can't take it through the normal courts to try and clear it up. The current government is pushing anti-egalitarian laws, best example is their desire to modify the law on sexual assault so exculpatory evidence can't be used.

Energy prices are through the roof, but wages are stagnant. Gasoline, NG, electricity are massively expensive. Housing prices are touching the moon, and wages are stagnant. $500k for a 40 year old house, in areas where the media income is $41k, $1.8m house prices in $70k median income. Provincial governments are doing stupid things like trying to ban NG and oil for heating and forcing people to use electricity only. Again in Canada's most populous province(Ontario), the government had to ban winter disconnection of electricity for fear of people freezing to death. Roughly 1:5 people are 3 months or more behind on their electricity bills.

Many provincial governments(Liberal and NDP) are pushing "service industry" policies for jobs, and trying to push out manufacturing jobs. Ontario again, a great example. The same province, pushed $15/h minimum wage and in the first fiscal quarter after it was implemented the economy lost nearly 50k PT jobs, the high min. wage has basically stalled the economy.

Yep, I full get why they want to GTFO. And I live in Ontario.

Re: Damn right

[Mashiki]

The difference is that when you have a kangaroo court that can fine you into oblivion for making factual statements, and directly quoting someone. You have a serious problem in your apparent democracy. These aren't criminal courts, they're "human rights" courts and it's enough that a person can ruin your life because "they feel offended by what you say." They're also insanely biased, a recent example where a muslim would only rent to muslims was perfectly okay. But a christian only renting to christians wasn't allowed and considered a HRC violation.

Oh and I shouldn't forget, in Canada we have a parallel criminal sentencing system if you're native/indigenous. Read gladue if you want to see that clusterfuck. Despite that it was to be "only minor crimes" there's been plenty of instances where rapists, attempted murder, and so on with the person having a laundry list of crimes was simply given a slap on the wrist.

Re: Damn right

[JMJimmy]

The 50k job loss was expected. It's a short term decline that happens with every minimum wage increase which is inevitably recovered within about a year. 100% of the increase at the bottom end is spent because it's still impossible for the poor to save money, they just end up with slightly more to spend on the things they need. Thus, in the long term it grows the economy by circulating that money through the economy.

Re: Damn right

[Mashiki]

So why the hell didn't you GTFO yet? You should be very happy in the US with its neo-feudalist/protofascist shit laws, dirt cheap filthy energy, and large community of deplorables (meaning racist/xenophobic/otherwise bigoted hatemongers). They still have stagnant wages like most of the planet, but you might be satisfied to blame that on illegal immigrants there.

Oh boy, I sure do like the progressives. The ones that are so out of touch that they think that anyone who doesn't fall in line should be attacked. So, my dear progressive moron. Please explain why Quebec said "that's it, we're full" on illegals crossing from the US. It broke their bank, and they had to send a bill to the federal government for reimbursement. Why don't you explain, why Ontario is also right at the breaking point, again from all those illegals.

Now why don't you explain why there have been more illegals entering from the US then actual refugees from Syria. When you're done that, you can explain where we're going to get all this money for taking care of them. Then you can explain why Trudeau, after saying "Canada welcomes illegals" is suddenly looking to Trump and asking in very nice and polite words, if they could help Canada deal with the massive influx of illegals crossing into Canada from the US. Oh, and by "help" they mean, please deport them to their country of origin.

It's a real shame that wannabe-American Canadians like you aren't given honorary American citizenship so you can fuck off to your utopia. Maybe the two countries could work out a liberal/deplorable citizen exchange program?

It's a real shame that individuals like yourself who think money grows on trees, and is perfectly okay with people ghettoizing entire areas of a city is great. Hey, you wonder why Toronto and Ottawa have both had a massive jump in gun crime, stabbings, and violent assaults? Please explain why this is happening just "particular" areas. Can you explain with even the barest trickle of illegals being granted temporary residency that in small cities(under 50k) where they may have 2 rapes/year, have seen 40-80 in a year...suddenly, and the people arrested just "happen" to fall into one particular racial and economic demographic.

It's almost like importing/allowing illegals in who have no care for the law, refuse to assimilate, and view women as worthless cause serious stability problems in society. Hey, maybe while you're at it you can go look at the UK which did something similar, and there's over 20 cites now with massive "asian" child rape gangs, and the police and government looked the other way while the rampant abuse was going on. Hey, while you're at it, why don't you go ask the local police boards in Ontario, why they're trying to push the EXACT same policies on police services in Ontario, that created that massive level of abuse in the UK.

Unlikely

[110010001000]

This is unlikely, since we all know from comments on Slashdot that the US is a third world hellhole no one would want to even visit, much less live in. Surely they meant they fled to Europe, which as we all know is a welcoming, enlightened place for humans to live in peace and harmony.

Re: Unlikely

[dnaumov]

Wasnâ(TM)t it just weeks ago when a Slashdot article was proclaiming Trump is causing a brain drain with techies fleeing to Canada? And they are all reversing course within weeks?

Re: Unlikely

[110010001000]

This is similar to visiting investment websites. They will simultaneously tell you that oil prices are collapsing and skyrocketing on the same page. Data can be interpreted to fit any agenda. Most likely this "study" was funded by someone looking to increase (taxpayer funded) investment in the Canadian tech industry.

Re: Unlikely

[110010001000]

No American is desperate enough to move to Canada. Even when they hit 30. They would rather accept their fate.

Re:Unlikely

[110010001000]

Wait, so the US isn't one homogenous entity? There are different places in the US with different experiences and lifestyles and living conditions? Amazing what you learn on Slashdot.

Re: Unlikely

[110010001000]

Lies. We all know the capital of Canada is Toronto.

So, people are moving around ?

[alexhs]

Two weeks ago, we learned that Engineers Are Leaving America For Canada.

Do the stories cancel out ?

Will we get a follow-up story about (for example) how young Canadians come to the Silicon Valley to get credentials, then leave because of the high cost of living / insecurity over employee buses attacks ?

Re:So, people are moving around ?

[110010001000]

I think we need to build a wall to keep people from moving around so much.

Make up your mind.

[snoig]

So last week all the tech conferences were moving to Canada: https://news.slashdot.org/stor... Two weeks ago all the Engineers were moving to Canada: https://news.slashdot.org/stor... And this week all Canadian tech is moving to Silicon Valley.

Re:Good Schools

[50000BTU_barbecue]

It's difficult for people to understand that we are taxed like a socialist country but get services like a capitalist country. The corporate takeover of our government is slowly but surely happening, one step at a time.

A cursory google search

[rsilvergun]

says Average wait times for surgery in Canada is around 9 weeks. e..g 2 1/4 months. Pretty bad. Same search for US says 12 weeks, e.g. 3 months. Worse.

Facts are overwhelmingly on the side of single payer healthcare. And this is not at all surprising. When in your life has a middle man been a good thing? Especially a middle man who is actively trying to keep you from using the service you paid for? You do understand that insurance companies make money when they collect premiums and don't pay claims?

Re: Good Schools

[Type44Q]

Could it be that the Swiss... protect themselves by - dare I say it - refusing to participate in a 'race to the bottom' by importing cheap labor?

This is a salary problem

[BigDish]

I'm a US citizen that moved to Toronto because I loved the city. What I found is that the tech jobs just don't pay there, while the city is rapidly increasing in price. My understanding is Vancouver isn't much different. I took a pay cut to move there, and ultimately left for a Seattle-based job. After the exchange rate, my salary in Seattle is double that of Toronto - while the cost of living isn't that much more. I talked to many tech people in Toronto, and never found someone who was making 6 figures Canadian even.

I would love to move back to Toronto, but the low salaries, high cost of living, and poor benefits (most companies only wanted to offer 2 weeks of vacation time, and my company didn't even offer retirement plans) made it a poor financial decision for me. If Canada wants to stop the brain drain, they need to fix the salary problem.

Canada vs USA

[fluffernutter]

I looked several times into moving to the US but it never made sense.

Reasons I never moved from Canada:
1) I wanted kids, and didn't want to pay for some stranger to bring them to swimming classes, music classes. Having my parents do it saved me thousands, and the kids got to know their grandparents.
2) I like nature, prefer at least an acre of land. Definitely don't want to live in some concrete land where you can touch your house and the next one at the same time. I like a private lot.
3) I don't like spending time in a car
4) Cheap mortgage
5) We still have communities here. Our kids played on the front street with other kids in the neighborhood, while the neighbors chatted. IN the US it seems like everyone just looks out for themselves.
6) Peace of mind for healthcare. I have to dick around with insurance companies for dental and I hate it. Can't imagine fighting for health. We ended up having a lot of health issues in my family and I would have hit a lifetime cap a long, long time ago. I would have been bankrupt right now.

I always put a cost to myself and my family on those things and no matter what job offer came up, it just wouldn't cover it.

Re:Good Schools

[b0s0z0ku]

You may claim to be an atheist, but you've been infected with the US idea that wealth == value to society and are parroting it.

That $25k/yr teacher? Say she pays 20% effective tax rate. You're left with $20k/yr. Housing? $600/mo or $7200/hr. Down to $12800. Car insurance. $1000/yr, down to $11800. Food, $200/mo or $2400/yr. Down to $9400. Utilities in Arizona, $200/mo, down to $7000. Any student loans? 10% of income, $2500/yr, down to $5500. Car repairs/lease, $2000/yr, down to $3500. Clothing, $1000/yr, down to $2500 for insurance and anything outside of bare necessities. And insurance deductibles in the US aren't zero.

Do the math before you talk how great the US system is.

Re: Damn wrong

[Mashiki]

Your ignorant "analysis" of Gladue reports is enough to mark you as an utter moran. Go hang you racist cunt.

Go tell it to the 3yr old girl who was repeatedly anally raped by her own father, required 24 surgeries and the native offender was given 6mo weekends only, and was released on his own recog before trial. Why don't you go look up the case on Gerald Stanley, who was put on trial for shooting the native. The native who'd had a laundry list of criminal offenses from assault (physical disfigurement of a person w/weapon), multiple instances of robbery(w/weapon) and so on. Oh did I mention he was a great example of gladue? Just like his parents who were involved in the same thing. He got slaps on the wrist until he got shot and killed while trying to rob someone.