Illinois To Sue EPA For Exempting Foxconn Plant From Pollution Controls (reuters.com)

Last week, Reuters reported that "Illinois' Attorney General said she plans to sue the EPA for allowing a proposed Foxconn plant in neighboring Wisconsin to operate without stringent pollution controls." From the report: On Tuesday, the EPA identified 51 areas in 22 states that do not meet federal air quality requirements for ozone, a step toward enforcing the standards issued in 2015. An exempted area was Racine County, Wisconsin, just north of the Illinois border that is known to have heavily polluted air, where Taiwan-based Foxconn is building a $10 billion liquid-crystal display plant. Pollution monitoring data show the county's ozone levels exceed the 70 parts per billion (ppb) limit. If Racine County had been designated a "non-attainment" area, it would have required Foxconn to install stringent pollution control equipment.

Attorney General Lisa Madigan said she would file a lawsuit in the District of Columbia Circuit Court of Appeals challenging the EPA's ozone designations, saying its failure to name Racine County a "non-attainment" area puts people at risk. "Despite its name, the Environmental Protection Agency now operates with total disregard for the quality of our air and water, and in this case, the U.S. EPA is putting a company's profit ahead of our natural resources and the public's health," Madigan said in a statement.

Comments

Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

Go ahead, sue, sue until Foxconn moves to other places, taking with it the job opportunities for people living in the area

Re:Jobs not important?

[jarkus4]

Given the factory will be in neighboring state I would say Illinois doesn't really get the benefits (taxes etc) and gets all the bad stuff as pollution doesn't care about borders

Re:Jobs not important?

[_Sharp'r_]

So Wisconsin, where the plant actually is, was fine with it, to the point of cutting their taxes on revenue from the plant to encourage it to be built, but I guess since Illinois isn't going to see much revenue from it, they want to line up to stop it, instead?

(BTW, in case you wondered, like I did, Racine County ends about 6-8 miles from the Illinois border. The plant location itself is about 15 miles away.)

So still curious, I took a look at the WI site for air quality and Racine, as well as the County between it an Illinois, looks fine. Even if you go to the highest ozone level report, it's still maxing out at 47ppb. So it may have hit 70 at some point (Summer is usually worse), but it's probably not a frequent occurrence that it's up there. Certainly nothing to shut down a plant hiring 3k -13k workers over. I notice none of the articles attempt to quantify what, if any, difference the plant will make to ozone levels.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Megane]

Apparently so. Not that it is the source of the pollution (it's not even built yet!) or would cause such pollution. In fact, it seems to me that these ozone levels probably don't even come from inside Wisconsin. Hmm, I wonder where it comes from, it must be those darned Wisconsin ozone swamps, right? Oh wait, look at this big city over here where both the ozone and the even more toxic legal action is coming from! But to be fair, I suppose some of the ozone could have come from Michigan.

So it may have hit 70 at some point (Summer is usually worse), but it's probably not a frequent occurrence that it's up there.

Of course not, all the EPA cares about is even a few days of "non-attainment". Even if the ozone came from hundreds of miles away, or from out of the country (Texas sometimes has troubles from slash-and-burn agriculture in Mexico), it's all the fault and responsibility of the local area where the "pollutant" is detected.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

cheesehead here. we don't want that fucking thing here.

Re:Jobs not important?

[AndyKron]

Good. Get them the fuck outta here.

Re:Jobs not important?

[msauve]

Fuck Chicago. They're just getting a taste of their own medicine.

Re:Jobs not important?

[shplopt]

No one does. Things have gotten so odious that politicians are just ignoring issues they could win on. I don't get it. I mean, I do - they seek office just to get in on the kickback train - but . . . It just doesn't make any real sense. It's Camus' Absurd.

Re:Jobs not important?

[AmiMoJo]

I can create millions of jobs for you if you just give me a small labour law exemption.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not that it is the source of the pollution (it's not even built yet!) or would cause such pollution.

The why would they need an exemption from pollution controls?

Re:Jobs not important?

[DRJlaw]

Fuck Chicago. They're just getting a taste of their own medicine.

"Chicago and most of the nation's other big urban areas have been on the list for years."

They already have, for years. No reason to leave Racine county off the list when it's already in non-attainment before the first shovel hits Foxconn's new grounds.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can create millions of jobs for you if you just give me a small labour law exemption.

Obama couldn't even accomplish that with his exemption.

Re:Jobs not important?

[msauve]

Whoosh. Is your problem with reading comprehension or retention? The greater Chicago area is the cause of much of the pollution in surrounding areas, including coastal Wisconsin and Michigan. Lacking the windborne pollution originating in Illinois and Indiana, there's no reason to believe Racine county would have any sort of issue. No reason to force Racine to mitigate Chicago's pollution. And it's disingenuous and hypocritical for Illinois to sue claiming Wisconsin might cause more pollution.

Supporting document:
"- Elevated ozone levels are confined to an extremely narrow band that follows Wisconsin's shoreline, with air quality improving dramatically just a few miles inland;
- Ozone concentrations measuring above the level of the 2015 ozone NAAQS at the state's lakeshore monitors occur almost exclusively when the wind is coming from over the lake, not from over Wisconsin;
- Ozone concentrations at Wisconsin's lakeshore monitors are primarily due to emissions originating from outside the state;

More: "Upwind states (primarily Illinois and and Indiana) and emissions from commercial shipping on the Great Lakes contribute 2-3 times as much as Wisconsin. [pollution to a site in WI]"

Re: Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

we don't know. Current data clearly demonstrates meeting standards. There could have been one event on one day that exceeded the standards, and that event may have been a thunderstorm.

Cleveland, for example, is a non-attainment area due exclusively to the Browns. Five days a year, there's a football game, and after the game, tens of thousands of cars idle in line while the drivers suffers the agony of being Browns fans. 360 days a year, the environment is fine, the air is clean, and the football terrible. But two hours a day, five days a year, is enough for the EPA to prohibit blue collar job growth in Cleveland.

Re:Jobs not important?

[DRJlaw]

Whoosh. Is your problem with reading comprehension or retention? The greater Chicago area is the cause of much of the pollution in surrounding areas, including coastal Wisconsin and Michigan. Lacking the windborne pollution originating in Illinois and Indiana, there's no reason to believe Racine county would have any sort of issue. No reason to force Racine to mitigate Chicago's pollution. And it's disingenuous and hypocritical for Illinois to sue claiming Wisconsin might cause more pollution.

You mean, no reason beyond the fact that high levels of ozone are a health threat, so that adding to already high levels of ozone increases the health threat, and local sources of ozone generating emissions will have an even greater impact upon ozone levels that remote sources of such emissions.

You mean, it's hypocritical to expect Wisconsin to follow the Clean Air Act, which requires controls whether or not those emissions are local or imported, merely because every other county in the U.S. has to follow that law.

You mean that a plant located within 5 miles of the shore (something about a need to divert 6 millions gallons of water per day from Lake Michigan for industrial use, in violation of the Great Lakes Compact) is not within "an extremely narrow band that follows Wisconsin's shoreline."

Fine. You can argue all of that. In court.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Entrope]

The county cannot meet the standards currently, mostly because of pollution from elsewhere (like Chicago) that is carried to the county by wind. Since the EPA started regulating ozone levels in 1979, at least one county in that part of Wisconsin has been a "nonattainment region" for the same reason. Why should a business in Wisconsin have to install expensive equipment to limit pollution when the problem is caused by polluters in other states?

Re: Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

Argue with facts now. Racine county has less than 25 non-attainment hours a year, due entirely from emissions from Chicagoland. And that water you claim will be "diverted" does not magically disappear. It gets treated to remove the mild detergent and returned to the ecosystem. And, nothing about the exemption proves anything about the emissions of the plant.

Do you have any data, at all, about ozone emissions expected from this plant, or did you just repeat what you were told to scream about.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Entrope]

If a Chicago politician really wanted to reduce ozone levels in that part of Wisconsin, they would push for Chicago area polluters to reduce pollution. In fact, Chicago is also an ozone nonattainment area; she could challenge that in court. She isn't doing that.

Also, it's beyond stupid to say that every other county in the nation follows those regulations. Chicago doesn't. NYC doesn't. Itty bitty Indian tribes and bands don't. The list of nonattainment areas is as long as your arm.

Re: Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the irony that is being pointed out here is that the law does not punish the primary *causers* of the pollution, it punishes the *recipients* of the pollution. Obviously creating more pollution is not something that is desirable ever, but you drive that car anyway. Imagine if the government came to you and said "you can't drive your car anymore because the pollution here is real bad." whilst the coal-fired plant down the street is pumping away. You are allowed to be both concerned about pollution levels and annoyed that pollution regulation is disproportionately affecting you, who creates such a small slice of the problem.

Re: Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact, Chicago is also an ozone nonattainment area; she could challenge that in court. She isn't doing that.

Why would she? President Trump won't challenge his baldness leading him to wear a bad toupee in court, and the state of Illinois is working on its own pollution problems, rather than like certain hardcore Republican dominated areas, putting lives at risk going to court to prevent polluters from being held accountable.

Of course, it isn't like say, North Carolina didn't sue over its own concerns and you were conspicuously silent on their account.

Re: Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because Wisconsin complained, and demanded those pollution controls of Illinois.

Turns out when you expect things of others, they expect the same of you.

This is especially troublesome for police officers who are dumbfounded when the public raises objection to patrol cars driving erratically.

Re:Jobs not important?

[DRJlaw]

Also, it's beyond stupid to say that every other county in the nation follows those regulations. Chicago doesn't. NYC doesn't. Itty bitty Indian tribes and bands don't. The list of nonattainment areas is as long as your arm.

No it's beyond stupid that, once again, I must point out that Chicago is a listed non-attainment area (and does follow non-attainment regulations, thank you), that Racine is in non-attainment yet was delisted as non-attainment area this year (and so will not be following those regulations, again thank you), and that you are confusing whether or not a county is in attainment with whether or not new development must employ ozone precursor emission controls.

From TFA: "Pollution monitoring data show the county's ozone levels exceed the 70 parts per billion (ppb) limit. If Racine County had been designated a âoenon-attainmentâ area, it would have required Foxconn to install stringent pollution control equipment."

You've admitted yourself that Chicago is listed as a non-attainment area. Please, provide any evidence that Chicago does not follow non-attainment area regulations. I'll wait.

In fact, Chicago is also an ozone nonattainment area; she could challenge that in court. She isn't doing that.

Because the point is to reduce ozone non-attainment and prevent a race to the bottom where (oddly enough, Republican) states and counties disregard non-attainment so as to minimize environmental compliance costs while inflicting externalities such as respiratory disease deaths on their own citizens and those of surrounding states/counties. Non-attainment areas must work to reduce ozone precursor emissions themselves and minimize new sources of ozone precursor emissions with enhanced controls -- not merely blame their non-attainment on neighboring areas and go on their merry way.

If you don't like the way that the CAA operates, then build the political coalition necessary to change it. Until then, comply with the requirements of the CAA or face suit in court.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the government is fine with it. Due to gerrymandering only a minority of residents are fine with it.

Re: Jobs not important?

[phantomfive]

Maybe your assumption that they could win on those issues is wrong. Maybe they have better analysts than you looking at the polls, and even paying for better polling data.

Re: Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

I notice none of the articles attempt to quantify what, if any, difference the plant will make to ozone levels.

Here's just one quote that shows you mistaken:

The stateâ(TM)s air management staff also said last week that despite the immensity of the project, the factoryâ(TM)s impact would increase VOCs and NOx by about 4% in Racine County, which it says is manageable.

You could read the details in the DNR reports, but I merely wanted to inform You that your understanding of the situation seems incomplete if you were under the impression that the impact levels have not been assessed at all.

Of course, there are disagreements, but your assertion was not over that matter, but imputing a claim over the contents of the articles, however, that seems to be more a result of your lack of awareness so you may want to address that problem.

Re: Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

I won't pretend to understand all of this, but it sure sounds a lot easier to mitigate a single facility than a city with millions of people and tens of thousands of businesses.

Re:Jobs not important?

[DRJlaw]

So still curious, I took a look at the WI site for air quality and Racine, as well as the County between it an Illinois, looks fine. Even if you go to the highest ozone level report, it's still maxing out at 47ppb. So it may have hit 70 at some point (Summer is usually worse), but it's probably not a frequent occurrence that it's up there. Certainly nothing to shut down a plant hiring 3k -13k workers over. I notice none of the articles attempt to quantify what, if any, difference the plant will make to ozone levels.

Not a shutdown. From TFA: "Pollution monitoring data show the county's ozone levels exceed the 70 parts per billion (ppb) limit. If Racine County had been designated a 'non-attainment' area, it would have required Foxconn to install stringent pollution control equipment."

Also, not particularly invested in your personal conclusion of attainment after having glanced at a one day, Spring season ozone report. Also from TFA: "The EPA, under Administrator Scott Pruitt, left Racine County off its non-attainment list despite an agency staff analysis of ozone levels in Wisconsin published in December, which found that the county's air exceeded federal ozone limits." We call that "arbitrary and capricious agency action" in my neck of the woods, and it's a good basis for a court suit.

Install the pollution controls required in a non-attainment area, and magically the suit goes away and the plant can run. Don't, and get sued.

Notice that the one thing not happening here is Wisconsin suing Illinois for failing to install ozone precursor emission controls in Illinois' developments.

Re:Jobs not important?

[msauve]

6 million gallons/day? Chicago diverts 2 billion gallons/day from the Great Lakes watershed, much of it to move their crap elsewhere, just like they do with air pollution.

Re: Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

we don't know. Current data clearly demonstrates meeting standards. There could have been one event on one day that exceeded the standards, and that event may have been a thunderstorm.

Cleveland, for example, is a non-attainment area due exclusively to the Browns. Five days a year, there's a football game, and after the game, tens of thousands of cars idle in line while the drivers suffers the agony of being Browns fans. 360 days a year, the environment is fine, the air is clean, and the football terrible. But two hours a day, five days a year, is enough for the EPA to prohibit blue collar job growth in Cleveland.

Dude, I hate to break it to you, but the pollution is from the Cleveland Browns themselves.

All those thousands of idling cars actually help burn up the worst of the miasma from the Brown's corrosive ineptitude.

Why the hell do you think the grass in the stadium turns brown? The Browns take the field and the grass just dies.

And it's been spreading. The Browns played the Dolphins in Miami a while ago, and when the Browns took the field the palm trees lining the path actually caught fire. ESPN has suppressed the video.

Why the hell do you think they're called the "Browns"?

The very air around them is fucking BROWN.

Re:Jobs not important?

[DRJlaw]

6 million gallons/day? Chicago diverts 2 billion gallons/day from the Great Lakes watershed, much of it to move their crap elsewhere, just like they do with air pollution.

Odd that you chose to respond only to that item. Odder still that you would assume that I wasn't in favor of stopping diversions through the Chicago canals, which will likely be responsible for introducing asian carp to the Great Lakes, further destroying the fishery, unless shut down.

But by all means, let's keep adding Great Lakes water diversions on top of the ones Chicago started in 1848 and added to up to 1922. Just one more, ad infinitum, cannot hurt, and we've learned nothing since the 1920s anyways.

Re:Jobs not important?

[thegarbz]

When the Australian government gave everyone $900 it managed to be the only western country exposed to the 2008 financial crisis that not only avoided a recession, but actually experienced growth during it.

Imagine Wisconsin simply giving everyone $1700. I'm sure it would be a much better for the economy of the state than creating 10000 low wage jobs (as laughable as that figure actually is).

Re:Jobs not important?

[drinkypoo]

Go ahead, sue, sue until Foxconn moves to other places, taking with it the job opportunities for people living in the area

The jobs are not important. The plant will not employ many people to begin with, and it will employ even less in short order since Foxconn is a leader in automation.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why should a business in Wisconsin have to install expensive equipment to limit pollution when the problem is caused by polluters in other states?" -- Because Wisconsin residents have to breath the air.

Re: Jobs not important?

[Wei-YehLee]

Jobs are important, but not at the expense of the health of citizens and the environment. The EPA has stopped doing its job during this White House administration

Re: Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness: only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past, in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites.

Re:Jobs not important?

[LynnwoodRooster]

I'm not sure I see the pollution problem? TFS says the county in WI already exceeds the O3levels, so IL is demanding that Foxconn not build there until the O3 levels are brought down. It says nothing about any additional O3 emissions from Foxconn; for all we know, the Foxconn plant may add zero additional O3.

IL was apparently content living with the existing O3 levels, but now that Foxconn is moving in, they raise a ruckus. To me, it sounds like either sour grapes against WI for getting the plant instead of IL (who was also bidding for it), or political hay because Trump.

Re: Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember Trump's instructions to Scott Pruitt? The most important thing is that he, aka, the Great Screamer, have a chance to make noise about something or another.

Carrier, Foxconn, Ford, Syria, Korea, all that matters is that he can say something even if it is fake.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Ryanrule]

Fuck suburban Milwaukee. Worst people in the world.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was almost going to take your word for it, but I went and fact-checked instead, and apparently a net of 10.4 million jobs were created during Obama's time in office. According to the stats, when his first term started the unemployment rate was around 8% and rising extremely rapidly, but within his first year he turned it around so that there was a steady decrease in unemployment all the way until the end of his second term when unemployment was under 5%.

So Obama could accomplish that after all. (What labour law exception of his were you talking about?)

Re:Jobs not important?

[Entrope]

Racine is in non-attainment

Says who? The EPA didn't list Racine County under the 2008 standards, didn't list it under the initial list of nonattainment areas for the 2015 standards, and didn't list it under the additional areas list that was just published. Well after the Foxconn plant was announced, the EPA told Wisconsin they expected to list Racine County as a nonattainment area, but later changed their mind.

Since Madigan apparently missed the lecture on Chevron deference during law school, I'll point out here that courts are extremely deferential to regulatory agency decisions. The EPA described their process and the factors they consider in determining which areas are in nonattainment. The EPA is not required to make that determination based only on whatever measurements you think support your case. "If you don't like the way the Clear Air Act works, then build the political coalition necessary to change it."

Re:Jobs not important?

[DRJlaw]

Says who? The EPA didn't list Racine County under the 2008 standards, didn't list it under the initial list of nonattainment areas for the 2015 standards, and didn't list it under the additional areas list that was just published. Well after the Foxconn plant was announced, the EPA told Wisconsin they expected to list Racine County as a nonattainment area, but later changed their mind.

Um, as you yourself wrote, the EPA?

"Tuesday's announcement was a shift from the EPA's stance in December when it determined a much broader area of southeastern Wisconsin failed to meet ozone standards.

At that time, the EPA declared Milwaukee, Waukesha, Ozaukee, Washington and Racine counties in violation. The same was true for northern Door County and Kenosha County east of I-94. The EPA also found that areas near the shoreline of Sheboygan and Manitowoc counties in violation."

And in case you missed it in the final rule:
Oddly an almost contigious non-attainment area simply skips Racine county, because air pollution totally does that.

But I'm sure that the chage versus the recommendation was totally data-driven. Have fun in court.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Joe_Dragon]

well they can toll the small free part of I-94 / US-41

Re:Jobs not important?

[Entrope]

Maybe you should read the letter from the EPA to Wisconsin, which makes it clear that they never declared Racine County to be in nonattainment.

As for what air pollution does, it also doesn't follow county boundaries, but that is by far the most common way that the EPA declares which areas need to use stricter emissions controls. Prevailing winds might carry Chicago's pollution farther north rather than sending it ashore in Racine County. The bit to the south of Racine is part of Milwaukee, which can obviously produce quite a bit of its own smog.

If I went to court for this case, it would only be so I could laugh at Madigan when the judge throws the case out and ask how much taxpayers money she wasted on a futile political stunt.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

non--attainment ... for a total fo 25 hours during the year, due entirely to pollution coming from Chicago. Note that the pollution control equipent wouldn't be addressing a significant source of pollution, but would have a huge cost.

This is a tempest in a teapot stirred up by a slimy politician exploiting people for votes.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, let's just fuck everything for stupid fucking jobs. You happy with the stupid god you're worshiping?

Re:Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

"We", as in "the people who live in Wisconsin" are not "fine with it". This is Ryan and Walker's pet project, paid for with OUR tax dollars. The "public cost per job" this will end up costing is ludicrous. We are sooo NOT FINE WITH IT.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

and thats the important part Live in the area and suffer all the ill effects of living near that plant long after they stop working there or gaining any economic benefit from it being there.

Re: Jobs not important?

[shplopt]

Maybe they do, I mean they do make the maps. But I was talking more about things like DACA and net neutrality.

Re:Jobs not important?

[DRJlaw]

Maybe you should read the letter from the EPA to Wisconsin, which makes it clear that they never declared Racine County to be in nonattainment.

Maybe you should link to it, rather than flatly contradicting published reports of the EPA's determination in December that Racine county was in nonattainment.

. The bit to the south of Racine is part of Milwaukee, which can obviously produce quite a bit of its own smog.

Milwaukee is north of Racine county, yet supposedly sufficiently smog-free to be in attainment while non-urbanized areas north and south of it are not.

t would only be so I could laugh at Madigan when the judge throws the case out

For what? I mean, you've gotten so much else wrong you may as well add another basis upon which we can judge your failures...

Re:Jobs not important?

[Entrope]

Maybe you should link to it, rather than flatly contradicting published reports of the EPA's determination in December that Racine county was in nonattainment.

This is the December letter that your sources incorrectly described as saying that Racine County was in nonattainment.

Re: Jobs not important?

[_Sharp'r_]

I didn't say they hadn't been assessed. I said the articles (meaning the links in the summary) didn't quantify it.

Thanks for the quote, although it would have been more helpful if you'd also have provided a link to the article which contains the quote to get the full context.

Re:Jobs not important?

[_Sharp'r_]

Your comment makes no sense.

If the options are:
1. Build plant, hire workers, pay less taxes from plant itself for a few years (although others involved will pay more taxes)
vs
2. Don't build plant in WI at all

Which one do you think results in more taxes to WI? The State isn't paying them for building the plant, they're giving them tax incentives (i.e. reducing their taxes) for building it in WI. There is a new tax benefit per job, not a "cost per job". You seem to be imagining the comparison point is if they built the plant with no tax incentives, which no one is contemplating happening. The alternative is no plant at all, not a plant with no break on their taxes.

Re: Jobs not important?

[phantomfive]

I don't think most people care about those, but the D's are trying to make an issue of net neutrality, for example forcing a vote on it in Congress. So well see if it works. More specifically, it matters if people are willing to change their vote based on the issue.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

Given the factory will be in neighboring state I would say Illinois doesn't really get the benefits (taxes etc) and gets all the bad stuff as pollution doesn't care about borders

How much do you want to bet that Racine's air problems are primarily due its proximity to Chicago? Sounds like grandstanding to me.

Re:Jobs not important?

[sysrammer]

Taking a look at this, I see that Racine county is not listed. Per the doc, "Implementing the 2015 Ozone Standards – Designated State Areas", "Areas not listed will be addressed in a separate future action"

Re:Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure I see the pollution problem

You are a known denier, so you never do...

Re:Jobs not important?

[DRJlaw]

This [epa.gov] is the December letter that your sources incorrectly described as saying that Racine County was in nonattainment.

Odd, because the final page, enclosure 1, lists "Racine" under "EPA's Intended Nonattainment Counties."

What was incorrect about that description, again?

Re:Jobs not important?

[Entrope]

"Intended" is not "current" or "actual". Nonattainment is determined by what the EPA actually determines, under the procedures it has defined under the CAA. It's not determined by what the EPA says it might do in the future.

Re:Jobs not important?

[DRJlaw]

"Intended" is not "current" or "actual". Nonattainment is determined by what the EPA actually determines, under the procedures it has defined under the CAA. It's not determined by what the EPA says it might do in the future.

And the reason for the change between December (draft rule) and May (publication of final rule) was, especially given the lack of changes in other regions of the intended nonattainment areas? Guess what - that's what will be litigated. And it had better be based upon data rather than Walker/Pruitt political pressure.

Re:Jobs not important?

[DRJlaw]

"Intended" is not "current" or "actual". Nonattainment is determined by what the EPA actually determines, under the procedures it has defined under the CAA. It's not determined by what the EPA says it might do in the future.

But actual is actual (page 30), not based on what the Pruitt EPA announces in a final rule, and WDNR's own data shows that Racine exceeded the 2015 NAAQS by more days above critical values than all but two other monitoring stations.

So show me the "actual" data that demonstrates attainment.

Re:Jobs not important?

[Entrope]

Kind of. This is Auer deference rather than just Chevron deference. Unless the EPA has really bogus reasons or obviously lies about its reasons, it will win the case. It only really needs a fig leaf under current precedent. Or do you think that this is the case where the Supreme Court will suddenly change its mind about courts deferring to the expertise of regulatory agencies?

Re:Jobs not important?

[Entrope]

Wrong. The EPA has a process for determining nonattainment, and that is what determines nonattainment, not "draft/preliminary" and "subject to change" numbers that "have not yet been CQ'ed or certified".

Re:Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's in a Red State. Therefore all those environmental and health protection laws don't apply. And if it somehow makes Chicago's air quality worse, great! Shut down that Blue State. /s in case there are any True Believers around...

Re: Jobs not important?

[Anonymous Coward]

I choose not building it. I wonâ(TM)t pay 200 grand per job. No thanks!

Re:Jobs not important?

[DredJohn]

The plant will not employ many people to begin with, and it will employ even less in short order since Foxconn is a leader in automation.

According to https://www.jsonline.com/story..., to get full tax credits and sales tax savings, Foxconn would have to employ 13,000 workers from 2022 through 2032.

Re: Jobs not important?

[_Sharp'r_]

Again, "paying 200 grand per job" wasn't one of the options. Being paid less taxes per job was what was passed. You're missing the point. No one is taking cash and paying the factory owners. The factory owners aren't having to pay as much in taxes for the first few years as they normally would.

The problem you're having is that you're reading news reports which purposefully try to confuse their readers by using false language to shade what was passed and make it sound like the State is giving the factory owners money. They aren't, they just aren't taking as much of a cut from the factory as they normally would over time.

LOCK HER UP

[Anonymous Coward]

HILLARY IN JAIL

Lisa Madigan

[Vinegar Joe]

Is a Democrat from Chicago. Perhaps she should be more worried about Chicago's lead poisoning epidemic.

Re:Lisa Madigan

[pots]

She is. Whew, glad she meets your approval. It'd be a shame if she did one thing to protect the people of her state without also doing every other thing you can think of first.

Re:Lisa Madigan

[El Cubano]

However, she also has been a strong proponent of federal involvement in the environment:

Attorney General Madigan has taken the lead in protecting Illinoisâ(TM) air from pollution. On the federal level, Madigan has advocated stronger air emission standards for electric power plants and motor vehicles. At the state level, Madigan continues to fight for a cleaner environment and to hold polluters responsible for their actions. Under her leadership, the Attorney Generalâ(TM)s office successfully litigated the largest Clean Air Act enforcement case in state history, requiring the defendant to spend more than $88 million on pollution reduction projects at its Illinois facilities.

So, I read her position on the matter as roughly equivalent to "I support more federal government regulation so long as it is of a variety that I like." If you think about it, that is about par for the course for liberals and even many who call themselves conservative.

Re:Lisa Madigan

[drinkypoo]

So, I read her position on the matter as roughly equivalent to "I support more federal government regulation so long as it is of a variety that I like."

Uh yeah, that's how it works.

If you think about it, that is about par for the course for liberals and even many who call themselves conservative.

You mean all who call themselves conservative, you maroon. You don't even know what these words mean. Liberals are people who favor government interference in business, but not personal issues. Conservatives are the opposite. Both clearly favor government interference. If only you knew what these words meant, you could save yourself a lot of senseless posting.

Re:Lisa Madigan

[Anonymous Coward]

Well you're certainly not going to regulate the environment for us all. Sometimes federal regulation isn't a bad thing.

Re:Lisa Madigan

[Entrope]

Are you sure that the OP wasn't talking about an epidemic of bullet lead?

Re:Lisa Madigan

[pots]

That's... convoluted. Another way to read her position is: "I oppose pollution."

Re: Lisa Madigan

[Bing Tsher E]

By 'government interference in personal issues' do you mean things like the government forcing a baker to bake a cake?

Re: Lisa Madigan

[Anonymous Coward]

Forcing a business to not discriminate. FTFY

Re:Lisa Madigan

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure that the OP wasn't talking about an epidemic of bullet lead?

As long as it doesn't spread out of the black neighborhoods, white "progressives" don't really care about that. They can't use the fact that the most likely cause of death of a black person is getting shot by another black to bash Republicans as raaaaacists.

But hey, let a 300-lb "teen" who just robbed a store get shot attacking a white cop, or a thug get ventilated while bashing a "white hispanic"'s head on a concrete sidewalk, and those "progressives" will howl.

Just like a rabid, crazy, senseless dog howling at the moon.

The narrative is what matters, not the thousands of black person trapped in poverty who have to die at the hands of other blacks.

Those blacks trapped in violent poverty vote for Democrats, so it's better to leave them trapped.

Ask Kanye what happens when you leave the Democrat's Thought Plantation.

Re: Lisa Madigan

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody is forcing them to be bakers. Don't want to bake cakes? Stop being a baker. 100% freedom of choice. But if you ARE a baker, you can't refuse to bake a cake for someone if the cake is safe for human consumption.

Don't like it? Don't demand the exemptions and tax breaks on business expenses. Or get out of the business.

Re: Lisa Madigan

[Anonymous Coward]

But it's OK for Muslim businesses to discriminate.

After all, Muslims discriminating is nothing to lose one's head over, so to speak, right?

Do Christians need to start suicide-bombing DNC offices simply to get a little respect?

Re:Lisa Madigan

[Anonymous Coward]

So, I read her position on the matter as roughly equivalent to "I support more federal government regulation so long as it is of a variety that I like."

That's... literally the best possible position to have on the matter. The alternatives are "Federal government regulation regulations would be bad in this instance, but I'll support them anyway just on principle" and "Federal government regulation regulations would be good in this instance, but I'll oppose them anyway just on principle".

Re: Lisa Madigan

[pots]

This is not true. I don't think we should be talking about cakes, it seems like an off-topic distraction, but "being a baker" does not give anyone license to force you to bake cakes.

There are a couple of different ways that could come up I guess: one is if you are a baker employed at a bakery, and the bakery owner tells you to bake a cake or you'll be fired. If you have some problem with baking this particular cake, let's say it's for a gay wedding and you don't like that, then you have the option to refuse and be fired. You can also quit, but neither of these things are easy - you're constrained by your need to eat and live and so on. I.e.: you're a wage slave. It may feel like the bakery owner, your employer, is forcing you to bake a cake, as mentioned in your job description, rather than just sitting around doing nothing, but... for convenience, we've made a societal decision that wage slaves aren't real slaves. So this doesn't count as "forcing" you to do anything, since you can technically always choose to quit and then starve to death. Also: fuck you, peasant. Get back to work.

Another way it could come up is if you are a baker who owns your own bakery, in other words you've been granted a corporate charter by the state under the principle that your business provides some benefit to society. In this case the people telling you to bake cakes are your customers, and if one of them tells you to bake a cake, and you have some problem with baking this particular cake (let say it's for a gay wedding and you don't like that), then you have the option to refuse. In which case you'll be fired: your business will be fined for illegal discrimination until eventually you're out of a job. You can also quit, but neither of these things are easy - you're constrained by your need to eat and live and so on. I.e.: you're a wage slave. It may feel like you're being forced to bake a cake, as mentioned in your advertising, but... for convenience, we've made a societal decision that wage slaves aren't real slaves. So this doesn't count as "forcing" you to do anything, since you can technically always choose to quit and then starve to death. Also: fuck you, peasant. Get back to work.

So, as you can see, no one can force you to do anything in a free society based on free commerce and free enterprise freedom freedom.

Re: Lisa Madigan

[Anonymous Coward]

But of course if its the KKK asking you to bake a cake you have every right to refuse and liberals will erect a statue to you.
Because its not at all about baking cakes, its about virtue signaling and validation of morally questionable behavior.

Re: Lisa Madigan

[Bing Tsher E]

My point was mostly lost in this thread that grew on it. The government involves itself in a lot of our personal business. I really doubt in the case of the bakery/wedding cake that there was no other choice available to the wedding organizers. There were plenty of other places to obtain a wedding cake for the celebration. It isn't like the jim crow south where blacks found themselves locked out of towns almost completely. So the legal action against the bakery was a targeted and organized attack on a business that a community didn't like. Almost like the kind of stuff the Klan commonly did.

Incidentally, the Klan wasn't an ad-hoc lynch mob, or even much of a secret organization. At it's peak, it was a powerful mainstream social organisation with local roots all across regions of the US, like the Lions, Shriners, or Freemasons. In some areas blacks weren't even the main target. The Klan attacked Jews and Roman Catholics very aggressively. It was just a nasty flavor of social organization, with smaller militant wings that are kind of like antifa is today.

Remember When

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember when The Donald said he would drain the swamp. He is the swamp.

Re:Remember When

[NicknameUnavailable]

Chicago is the swamp, he's about to poison them all. Gotta kill the critters before you can drain it.

Sue it for what?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess the government isn't immune to tort claims alleging that dropping pollution controls is the same as actually doing the polluting, but it's a stretch.

Those jobs are just social security jobs.

[Anonymous Coward]

They're paid out of the lack of taxes from Foxconn and are precisely the same as employing those people directly from social security, except that a private company benefits from their labour and it doesn't "count" as welfare because it's prattled about as "not taking foxconn's money". so if the jobs go, all that will happen is that the money will go to paying dole for them rather than Foxconn to employ them.

In case you bitch about the state "losing Foxconn's money", remember that the presence of Foxconn carries a cost to the state. That will be saved. And it isn't therefore "Foxconn's money", since they're freeloading and costing the state just as a squatter costs a private landlord. And none of you idiots would claim that the landlords should keep squatters because getting rid of them won't make them any money.

Please Ignore This Post

[Anonymous Coward]

62cb 866d 777c f75a
4f98 99e7 8691 00e4
c3df fcb0 5761 2081
9931 2d78 05c3 f27b
04e0 868b 1233 54fb
3f44 2f19 29d2 c5f8
0110 4823 596b 5d78
65ba 4b25 5695 4c1b

Welcome to the third world, USA

[GameboyRMH]

A company is moving in to exploit your cheap labor with a special license to pollute from the government, while your leader is a grade-A supercrook and mostly just his political opposition cares about that fact. Welcome to the third world USA, after much effort you've finally made it. A complementary basket of rusty VW beetles, oil barrels and discarded tires will be sent in the mail.

Re:Welcome to the third world, USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah in the USA low unemployment, booming economy, increasing consumer confidence, lower taxes, and the removal of that general feeling of malaise under the last president is terrible. But we'll get by. It's been a rough year and a half. But there's a BleuWave a comin' - you just wait. So very Bleu.

Re:Welcome to the third world, USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. A black man being in charge really DID scare you shitless, didn't it?

Re:Welcome to the third world, USA

[Anonymous Coward]

oh, so now you bitch about politicians doing their job!

Re:Welcome to the third world, USA

[Anonymous Coward]

A company is moving in to exploit your cheap labor with a special license to pollute from the government, while your leader is a grade-A supercrook and mostly just his political opposition cares about that fact. Welcome to the third world USA, after much effort you've finally made it. A complementary basket of rusty VW beetles, oil barrels and discarded tires will be sent in the mail.

The grade-A supercrook lost the election. The grade-B supercrook left office 16 months ago, but left behind a cabal of fools doing stupid shit like indicting companies for election interference that didn't exist at the time.

So not only did Mueller fuck up royally by indicting a corporation that's actually going to defend itself against the criminal charges, much to the chagrin of Mueller since it will show him as the fool he is, out of the four corporations he indicted, at least one of them didn't even exist during the time frame the indictment covers.

Oh yeah, it's apparently a catering company.

Mueller indicted a ham sandwich. Literally.

And I bet he's your hero.

BWAAA HAAA HAAAAA

GFY

Re:Welcome to the third world, USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course he was very scary. He literally send a plane filled with untraceable cash directly to terrorists. He was the terrorists' best friend and ally.

Re:Welcome to the third world, USA

[LynnwoodRooster]

You can check the historical record of how US voters feel about the direction of the country, and it's trending upward after a rather long, 10 year period of trending - or being - down.

Re:Welcome to the third world, USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, so what inside information do you have that the company is innocent? After all, only currently Muller and the company itself know what is in evidence.

Re:Welcome to the third world, USA

[fafalone]

You're lying about what that graph shows. There is no 8-year trend, it goes back and forth from the mean. The recent upward trend is within the bounds that the years before fluctuated. It's not an argument either for or against Trumps performance.

Re:Welcome to the third world, USA

[LynnwoodRooster]

Hmmm... Looking at the graph, it seems to me people are generally moving towards happy with the direction of the country. Check the graph's trend since 2010 - 8 years ago - it's getting better, slowly. And it's really increased fast since President Trump's election - and it's average for the entire Trump administration is lower than most of the entire Obama administration (and lower than any 1.5 year period of that administration). No lie needed - the data is the data.

Re:Welcome to the third world, USA

[fafalone]

If you plot a trend line across an 8 year period, it's neutral, not sloping upwards. To say 'it's really increase fast since President Trumps election' is to imply that it does so against the 8-year trend line, which it does not. You're clearly trying to suggest there's some evidence Trump's term is leading to a better outlook than Obamas, and that's unsupported by the graph; it's neither better nor worse.

Re:Welcome to the third world, USA

[LynnwoodRooster]

Nope. May 2010 you're up at ~57% wrong track, as compared to ~53% wrong track now. So the end points have a general trend down. The wrong track also spikes through most of 2011 and again in 2013. It rises again through 2015 to mid-2016, before it finally starts falling. In no way is that neutral.

Re:Welcome to the third world, USA

[Anonymous Coward]

You can see a trend from 2010 to 2018 LOL You are full of shit. No surprise no one ever believes your nonsense claims, and your links that contradict you silly stories.

Re:Welcome to the third world, USA

[Anonymous Coward]

hahahahaha, that's not how trends work. Don't worry if math or science are hard for you, just go with your feelings.
It's win/win, you get to tell all the smart people how wrong they are, and everyone gets to laugh at you.

fake news - well received

[Anonymous Coward]

Vladimir,

Congratulations ! Your work here is strong. Maybe too strong. Post some dissenting comments to yours.

dsw

name change

[beep54]

The EPA has turned into the Environmental Polluting Agency and this is a feature, not a bug.

WI has been stupid for a long time

[Anonymous Coward]

Just look up JFK's comment about the place when ever he campaigned there. Something along the lines of their minds being blank. I have relatives from there; they are just a step above inbred yokels (those I know are not inbred, can't about the rest.)

WI Coal Power also does not have the scrubbers much of the rest the country does; they've been dumping pollution into other states for decades.

Their roads are in poor shape too; half their economy is from people driving to work in MN or IL because their supposed pro-job anti-government never works. Madison is the only half decent place; everywhere else if you're gone for a month expect your neighbors to steal anything of value in your garage or barn. Finally, convicted pedophiles who plead guilty only get a few years in jail and then are supposed to self-monitor themselves so they don't watch cartoons etc. (like they are alcoholics... no smell of anything childish!) Yes, I have a relative who's had to deal with a pedophile there. The man retired early but I wouldn't be surprised if he had no trouble finding work in some under regulated business... He's white so they likely won't even check him out.

Re: WI has been stupid for a long time

[Type44Q]

I have to agree with this; I've met a few great people from Wisconsin but also a lot more duds than from surrounding states such as Minnesota and Michigan.

There's no question that Wisconsin is the 'Oklahoma of the upper Midwest (even Texans and folks from Arkansas and Kansas - none of them places to write home about - recognize OK as the twilight-zone shithole that it is).

Re:WI has been stupid for a long time

[Anonymous Coward]

Liberals: Wisconsin didn't lick Hillary's diseased old dusty taint, so let's talk shit about them to prove how superior we are.

6 months from now: Fuck, we lost yet another election! How does this keep happening? Everybody knows how tolerant we are!

Uh, how about Illinois sues Chicago

[Anonymous Coward]

For exempting illegals from laws?

Welcome to TRUMP America

[Anonymous Coward]

Where companies can do whatever the F they want and you don't matter, all in the name of "job creations".

51 AREAS??

[Provocateur]

This dyslexic conspiracy theorist puts his hat on, backwards.

Ozone? The conservative pollutant?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ozone really? I thought the big hazard it caused was low sperm counts? (it does this.) Sounds like something the conservatives wouldn't allow... every sperm is sacred!

I for one welcome lower sperm counts; especially in rural areas.

Re:Ozone? The conservative pollutant?

[omnichad]

Have you ever breathed in ozone? It hurts.

Re: Ozone? The conservative pollutant?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ground level ozone is not a good thing for people with respiratory problems. https://www.epa.gov/ozone-pollution

Fuck Scott Walker

[Anonymous Coward]

And the rest of the Trump Eunuchs that think allowing dirtbag chinks to open a toxic factory with no hope of EVER making a profit is somehow great Job news. THE WHOLE FUCKING DEAL IS TAXPAYER SUBSIDIZED.

Re: Fuck Scott Walker

[Anonymous Coward]

Wisconsin taxpayers are shelling out $3 Billion for maybe 4,000 relatively low paying factory jobs. Do the math...welfare would be cheaper. The factory is close enough to Illinois that a majority of the employees will be from Illinois, so we wonâ(TM)t even get income taxes. Walker screwed us again

Rich irony

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason for the higher ozone is because of Illinois. They are complaining about someone suffering from their pollution.

Fine Illinois Brethren.

FIBs

[Anonymous Coward]

That'll learn ya.

We know...

[Anonymous Coward]

...that corporations don't give a shit about poisoning the water, land, and air. We know that they'll do anything it takes to coerce local politicians to allow them to pollute. The EPA is the only thing standing between you and polluting corporations. You can join the corporations in trying to publicly vilify and discredit the EPA, but that means you're arguing to live in a toxic cess-pool, both literally and figuratively.

Lisa Madigan is a crook

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like her shot stain father. They both need to be tarred and feathered in the public square.

reopen the zion il nuclear plant!

[Joe_Dragon]

reopen the zion il nuclear plant!

No, no, it is absolutely true.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody is forcing the bakers to remain in their job. They are 100% absolutely free to stop being bakers in which case they will not have to bake cakes for customers they don't like. They're being forced the same way as your boss forces you to work. If you don't, you are going to be in trouble. Or are you one of those slackers who gets away with it?

Nope, it isn't slavery, because slaves are possessions, and the bakery owners were not part of anyone's possession.

And,no, if you refuse to do your job (baker) then you don't get to keep that job. And since we can't forcibly close down a shop, what we can do is sue the baker for not doing their job.

Pump it elsewhere

[RogueWarrior65]

Why not capture this ozone and release it into the upper atmosphere? Resurrect two birds with one stone.

Re:Pump it elsewhere

[greylion3]

If there was an easy way to capture it, sure, but it's 70 parts per billion.
Not exactly what you'd call a 'high concentration', except for human and animal respirational organs.

Also, 'capture' of ozone usually means having it react with something, but then it's no longer ozone.

But, having some kind of air cleaning effort going would be good.
Perhaps Wisconsin should require Foxconn to set up air cleaner units around inner city centers, if they want to build a factory.

I know I saw a story once about a city that had such units put up, and air quality improved by quite a bit.

All is fair

[gabrieltss]

Illinois sends their FIB's to Wisconsin to do 50 MPH over the speed limit and act like they own the state. Buying up land and building big expensive houses so residents of Wisconsin can't afford houses in their own state. Well guess what Illinois - FUCK YOU you FIB's! it's Wisconsin's turn to send shit your way! Keep your FIB's our of our state and maybe we will keep the pollution out of yours. Oh wait your already polluted. Oh and how is your gun control working there in Chicago? All those shootings you have every weekend and more getting killed in those than in ANY school shooting.

Re:All is fair

[Anonymous Coward]

Sweet, I have a chunk of prime acreage somewhat near the site I'll sell to one of the high roller execs who wants a beautiful secluded homesite.

No thanks, Walker

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Wisconsinite, this was a horrible deal for the residents. Virtually all of the jobs will go to people currently living outside of the state, and all of the incentives will be born by residents. Placing the factory in Racine is the worst location. It was only placed there to help Ryan. Now that he is going back home instead of âoeleadingâ the House, we should cancel the deal.

Fact Check

[Anonymous Coward]

A company is moving in to exploit your cheap labor

False.

Labor costs in the United States are not low. This is why U.S. companies seeking cheap labor establish factories in foreign countries, such as Mexico.

...with a special license to pollute from the government,

False.

Foxconn has not been granted a "special license to pollute from the government."

...while your leader is a grade-A supercrook

False.

The fake accusations against Trump have proven to be the work of a corrupt federal officials at the FBI and Justice Department in the Obama Administration, working together with the Hillary Clinton campaign.

...and mostly just his political opposition cares.

True.

A clear indication that this caring is actually a politically-motivated partisan political attack.