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Facebook Faulted By Judge For 'Troubling Theme' In Privacy Case (bloomberg.com)

schwit1 quotes a report from Bloomberg: A judge scolded Facebook for misconstruing his own rulings as he ordered the company to face a high-stakes trial accusing it of violating user privacy. The social media giant has misinterpreted prior court orders by continuing to assert the "faulty proposition" that users can't win their lawsuit under an Illinois biometric privacy law without proving an "actual injury," U.S. District Judge James Donato said in a ruling Monday. Likewise, the company's argument that it's immune from having to pay a minimum of $1,000, and as much as $5,000, for each violation of the law is "not a sound proposition," he said. Under the Illinois Biometric Information Privacy Act, the damages in play at a jury trial set for July 9 in San Francisco could easily reach into the billions of dollars for the millions of users whose photos were allegedly scanned without consent. Apart from his concerns about the "troubling theme" in Facebook's legal arguments, Donato ruled a trial must go forward because there are multiple factual issues in dispute, including a sharp disagreement over how the company's photo-tagging software processes human faces.

62 comments

  1. fry 'em to a crisp. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    we can all use an extra $3 in our pockets.

    (the lawyers would get the rest, of course.. but hey, so long as it's enough to sting mark where it counts, that's all that really matters).

    1. Re:fry 'em to a crisp. by Joce640k · · Score: 2

      Who's the "Dumb fuck" now, Zuck?

      https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/...

      --
      No sig today...
    2. Re: fry 'em to a crisp. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      who or what said they wanted to? or had to? hmm?

    3. Re:fry 'em to a crisp. by swb · · Score: 1

      $3? I thought we'd get a coupon good for $3 off any purchase of $20 or more worth of Facebook advertising.

  2. Did I get that right? by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Did Facebook essentially say "we don't want this law to apply to us, so fuck off"?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Did I get that right? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sounds like what FB said was "We think the judge is wrong."

      Which, much as the judge may dislike it, is NOT illegal.

      No opinions as to whether FB is correct about the law, or not. I haven't read the law, and am not lawyer enough to know whether the law says what this group of lawyers (FB's) says is correct, or whether the other group of lawyers (plaintiffs'?) is correct, since legalese is a highly specialized version of the language, where words may or may not mean the same thing as they do to the rest of us....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    2. Re:Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Seems like they no longer consider themselves bound by state law.

      Facebook’s arguments that the case should be thrown out because it would require the company to change its practices for users outside of Illinois.

      I assume they eventually plan to grow beyond the reach of even federal law.

    3. Re:Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did Facebook essentially say "we don't want this law to apply to us, so fuck off"?

      Yes - now the judge will say "fuck off" back to them. And point out that they are a bunch of homos.

    4. Re:Did I get that right? by Nidi62 · · Score: 2

      Did Facebook essentially say "we don't want this law to apply to us, so fuck off"?

      It's the Uber defense

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    5. Re:Did I get that right? by rmdingler · · Score: 2

      Powerful people (and corporations) do not retain elite legal representation solely to interpret the law for them.

      They retain the best attorneys to advise them how best to accomplish their goals despite the laws.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    6. Re:Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like what FB said was "We think the judge is wrong."

      Which, much as the judge may dislike it, is NOT illegal.

      Did you miss the little "prior court orders" detail?

      Well, that's definitely the kind of crime guaranteed to piss a judge. And had been any other offender instead such a mamooth as FB, that "misinterpreted prior court orders" wouldn't have been the description given but you'd been thrown directly in jail.

    7. Re:Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All court cases begin with a motion to dismiss the case. If a legal firm did not do this, they would not be earning their money. If the case is not dismissed, then it goes to trial.

    8. Re:Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems like they no longer consider themselves bound by state law.

      But why should they be, really? If they have no servers and no offices in Illinois (which I do not know to be the case, but let's say it's true), then nothing illegal actually happens in Illinois, and the things that do happen that would be illegal there, happen elsewhere, where they are not illegal.

    9. Re: Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And they are only successful if the laws are not written well or correctly.

      You cannot be expected (nor should you try) to abide by a law that doesn't actually exist.

    10. Re:Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capitalize the word " not" all you like. It isn't convincing. Believe it or not, acting in a completely disrespectful and intractable manner in court can have negative consequences especially during penalty assessment. It can also create problems for lawyers as they are considered officers of the court. Lawyers don't have to agree but they do have to proceed in accordance with rulings. Simply disregarding rulings and proceeding as if they are incorrect or never made is misconduct. Judges don't "scold" for the hell of it. They warn so they hopefully don't have to initiate punitive actions against legal teams. But if legal teams ignore warnings and proceed in a totally inappropriate and improper manner by ignoring the judges rulings then they can indeed face sanctions including referral for disbarment.

      Ignoring rulings is a way to disrupt proceedings and in functional terms is not in any way simply stating an opinion that the judge is wrong. There are procedures for disputing rulings. Simply ignoring rulings and acting as if they have no bearing is not proper procedure. It is contempt.

      Go ahead. During a legal proceeding in court, cover your ears and chant mmm mmmm mmm I can't hear you mmm mmm mmm. See where it gets you.

    11. Re:Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're burnt man.

    12. Re: Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technically, the court cases begin with a filing of the case by a plaintiff who hardly wants to dismiss it.

      But no, it is not always practical or advisable to move for a dismissal, or any form of judgment. Sometimes just because you know facts are in dispute, but other times because there are no grounds for it under the law.

      Divorce is a modern example. If a party to a marriage wants it dissolved, courts in the US today have no grounds for refusal. A divorce happens, and the old practice of "counseling" to keep a couple together is being deprecated. Instead, more general advise on seperation is provided.

      Partitioning land held in common is another example on many places. You may argue the options, but again, if one party wants it, it will happen. Courts simply can't refuse.

      And this isn't even counting the effects on the other party. A lawyer who lets their client air grievances that only incite ire and opposition will be risking the problem acting unprofessionally, they may have a duty to follow the wishes of their client, but too many litigants raise issues that don't serve them. This can even include arguing for a dismissal.

      Now in this case, I don't imagine that really applies, but your remarks were themselves a bit more overbroad than warranted.

    13. Re: Did I get that right? by burtosis · · Score: 2

      And they are only successful if the laws are not written well or correctly.

      And that, my friend, is why companies pay lobbiests to write the laws that hold themselves accountable. Politicans cut and paste them then vote for thier monied interests over those unwashed sniveling constituents. Often paying both sides of the isle for maximum lawbricution to pass the bills.

    14. Re: Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. I am not worried that some companies take advantage of the rules, I am concerned about their influence over the rule makers and enforcement bodies.

    15. Re:Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing about pedantry is it's rarely correct when used. Like now.

    16. Re:Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That argument has merit when talking about different countries, but within the US, sorry, but no cigar. The interstate commerce clause exists for this very reason. If you're doing business with people in Illinois, you are bound by their laws. Period. Its in federal court because the state of Illinois said they must abide, they refused, so the state brought it to the fed. The fed will decide if that law breaks interstate commerce clauses or if Facebook must abide by it. But as of right now the fed is telling Facebook they're misbehaving. As a defendant, it's not a good place to be when the court is telling you that you're misbehaving. No company within the US can survive the onslaught of the fed if the fed decides it wants you gone.

    17. Re:Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Powerful people (and corporations) do not retain elite legal representation solely to interpret the law for them.

      They retain the best attorneys to advise them how best to accomplish their goals despite the laws.

      They retain elite legal representation to keep them away from a jury. They know better than anyone else that once this thing is in front of a jury, no amount of money spent on legal representation will guarantee any sort of desirable outcome. It's just a multi-billion dollar roll of the dice at that point.

      Quick math:

      Illinois has about 13 million people. If "only" 25% were impacted by this situation and it happened "only" 10 times to each person, than at $1000-$5000 per violation they are looking at a potential payout of between $33 and $160 billion dollars. This is the kind of thing where FB will be required to list this lawsuit as a risk to their business in all of their filings with the SEC, and put themselves at risk of shareholder lawsuits if they don't do it when they should. This thing is a really big deal - it is no wonder they are doing everything possible to keep it away from a jury!

    18. Re: Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF is a "lobbiests".

      Learn to spell, you submoronic twit.

    19. Re:Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Disagreeing with a court order is not illegal. Willfully disregarding a court order w/out notice from a higher court that the order was incorrect will get you into lots of trouble with any court.

    20. Re: Did I get that right? by burtosis · · Score: 1

      WTF is a "lobbiests".

      Learn to spell, you submoronic twit.

      I Shakespeare up a word and yet you throw a fit over an extra "b" because I'm posting from a crappy mobile? Learn to prioritize literary atrocities you fast food slinging liberal arts major.

    21. Re: Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF is a "lobbiests".

      Learn to spell, you submoronic twit.

      I Shakespeare up a word and yet you throw a fit over an extra "b" because I'm posting from a crappy mobile? Learn to prioritize literary atrocities you fast food slinging liberal arts major.

      If you think an extra "b" is what is wrong ... wow.

      First of all, "lobbyist" DOES have two "b"s, so that wasn't the issue.

    22. Re:Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not illegal, but if it exacerbates something illegal, it may exacerbate the punishment too.

    23. Re:Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't know the facts or procedural history of the case and I didn't even read TFA, but the above post is so wrong I couldn't resist. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what this post is trying to say, but it looks to me like we've got somebody who got their JD from Wikipedia.

      The interstate commerce clause exists for this very reason. If you're doing business with people in Illinois, you are bound by their laws. Period.

      FFS no... just no...

      The above-quoted section is about civil procedure (e.g. jurisdiction, venue, choice of law...). Period.
      The Interstate Commerce Clause authorizes Congress to pass laws relating to interstate commerce (pretty much anything nowadays). If it shows up in litigation it's as part of a dispute as to whether a law is constitutional. The Interstate Commerce Clause does NOT stand for the proposition that "If you're doing business with people in [state], you're bound by their laws." I'm not saying that statement is incorrect, just that the Interstate Commerce Clause is irrelevant here.

      Its in federal court because the state of Illinois said they must abide, they refused, so the state brought it to the fed. The fed will decide if that law breaks interstate commerce clauses or if Facebook must abide by it.

      Again, I don't know the specifics of the case, but this statement could be half right. Strictly speaking, a state law can't violate the Interstate Commerce Clause per se. However, Facebook may be challenging the Illinois law based on the reasoning that it usurps Congress' authority to regulate interstate commerce, which may implicate a doctrine called the "Dormant Commerce Clause."

      IIAL, albeit a mere patent attorney and not a litigator or a constitutional scholar, so I'm certainly not the best authority on this sort of thing. That being said, the Commerce Clause is some basic shit.

    24. Re:Did I get that right? by HiThere · · Score: 2

      One thing you shouldn't do if you want to keep it away from a jury is piss off the judge.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    25. Re:Did I get that right? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In which case the words mean nothing at all.

    26. Re: Did I get that right? by burtosis · · Score: 1

      Brah - your way to riled over a few letters. Smoke some weed, or whatever it takes. You need some of those med boxes so you dont forget a day, l can tell you skiped a few.

    27. Re: Did I get that right? by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      "During a legal proceeding in court, cover your ears and chant mmm mmmm mmm I can't hear you mmm mmm mmm. See where it gets you."

      If you're a commoner, the judge tosses you into the Gulag.

      If you're financial nobility like Zuck, the judge gives you a blowjob.

    28. Re:Did I get that right? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      "I motion to have this thrown out on grounds that I'd lose the case if it is allowed to stay"

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    29. Re: Did I get that right? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Trebuchets are lobby.
      Howitzers are lobbier.
      Mortars are lobbiest of all.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  3. let's be real by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The plaintiffs may or may not "have a point" but let's also be real, this is not a bunch of white knights looking out for the privacy of downtrodden Americans, this is a bunch of lawyers who saw a way to make themselves a boatload of money just like the lawyers found filing ADA violation lawsuits against businesses en masse when there has been no actual complaint by an actually disabled person.

    1. Re:let's be real by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's continue to be real... lots of these problems are because facebook thinks they can get away with anything because their lawyers tell them they can... because they want to make a boatload of money. It goes both ways.

      So yeah... if I have to choose between the asshole lawyers who want to make money by protecting facebook fucking over consumers OR the asshole lawyers who want to make money by protecting consumers and fucking over facebook... I'll choose the later.

  4. Depends on the meaning of "is" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The judge doesn't understand the meaning of the words he's using. It's like the meaning of the words "news" or "terror". Legally the government can blow you up and legally the news can blame innocent people and get them killed too. That's the meaning of "justice" in America. ae911truth dot org

    See Deek Jackson's YouTube video for more info on the true meaning of words. LOL

    1. Re: Depends on the meaning of "is" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are wright man buy shhhhh dont jynx it cause nsa srcret progra...

  5. Mark Zuckerberb should be Raped by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What if Mark Zuckerborg was raped? He should be raped to the fullest extent of the law, on LiveStream. or FaceStream or whatever shitbag apparatus they built

  6. Only about FB users? by Teun · · Score: 5, Interesting

    We non-FB addicts are also scanned when some dupe posts a tagged picture of the innocent.
    Which in my view is much more serious, the poster should also be charged.

    --
    "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
  7. You don't like what you hear so ignore it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Typical Zuckerberg and Facebook to decide for themselves what is their responsibility in protecting privacy. Does Facebook and Zuck even care about privacy? Here you have a very wealthy college drop out who managed to con a bunch of people to sign up for a social site that is a disguise for a data miner of users information. Other then mindless social junkies who hasn't figured this out already?

  8. Re:end the war against women by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >>john schniedermann, anthony weiner, harvey weinstein... what do they have in common?

    they're all jews

  9. Interstate commerce clause says Illinois can't by raymorris · · Score: 1

    I haven't researched this particular case enough to have an opinion on this case, but the interstate commerce clause says that business dealings which cross state lines are regulated by the FEDERAL government, not by Illinois. The interstate commerce clause is an argument why Facebook would NOT be bound by the laws of Illinois - because it's the feds, not Illinois, who can make laws about interstate commerce.

    There are other arguments why Illinois law should apply, by the interstate commerce clause isn't one of them.

    1. Re:Interstate commerce clause says Illinois can't by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      So how does that principle interact with the one that whatever isn't being done by the feds is up to the states?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  10. Illinois Biometric Act/San Franciso court? by marcel_in_ca · · Score: 1

    So, how is FB being sued in a court in San Francisco for violating an Illinois law? Yeah, I get that it's a class action, and bumped up to federal court, but still. I'd expect this to play out in Illinois state courts, with Illinois plaintiffs, and FB having to get some Illinois representation, at least for the trial portion. Once it gets to appeals, sure, then it gets to the Federal level.

    1. Re:Illinois Biometric Act/San Franciso court? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Interstate cases have to be in federal courts, and I would guess that Facebook is incorporated in California. That would make the San Francisco court the appropriate federal court. (If Illinois were defending, it would be a different court, of course.)

      The thing I don't get is the FB attorneys blowing off the judge. All I can figure is they're trying to get him to say something that will require him to recuse himself from the case. (Of course, it could be paraphrases by the reporters...)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  11. cryin for zuck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I feel bad for my zuck

  12. Article 1 Section 8 and 10th Amendment by raymorris · · Score: 1

    You're referring to Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution:

    The Congress shall have Power To ... [list of powers, including regulate interstate commerce]

    And the 10th Amendment:

    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

    The 10th says that any powers other those given to the federal government remain with the states, or individuals.

    What it does NOT say is that states may act in federal territory when Congress decides NOT to act. For example, Congress has the power to declare war. If Congress chooses not to declare war, that doesn't mean a state can. Because Congress *can* declare war, states cannot. The feds can coin money from tin. Therefore the states can't - even if the feds decide not to issue tin coins.

    1. Re: Article 1 Section 8 and 10th Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What it does NOT say is that states may act in federal territory when Congress decides NOT to act. For example, Congress has the power to declare war. If Congress chooses not to declare war, that doesn't mean a state can. Because Congress *can* declare war, states cannot. The feds can coin money from tin. Therefore the states can't - even if the feds decide not to issue tin coins.

      Actually, if you read the Constitution, states are explicitly forbidden under Article I, Section 10 , from declaring war and minting currency.

      You must never have read the text.

      No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

      Completely the opposite of how you portray it.

  13. I love self-flaming posts by raymorris · · Score: 1

    You wrote:
    --
    states are explicitly forbidden under Article I, Section 10 , from declaring war

    You must never have read the text.

    No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
    --

    How about we read it together. You very kindly copy/pasted it, so we both have it right in front of us. Thanks for that. Let's look together at the part that says "declare war". Do you see the two words right before that and the two words after "declare war"?

    1. Re: I love self-flaming posts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry man, this is what was written by me.

       

      Actually, if you read the Constitution, states are explicitly forbidden under Article I, Section 10 , from declaring war and minting currency.

      Deliberate misquoting is a sign of deceit, which is a result of your argument being flawed. You can't admit the truth so you lie. Not only that, you didn't bother looking up the Constitution, even when I told you where to look.

      Sorry, but it is in Section 10, not 8, and not implicit, but explicitly stated. States can't declare war. It, minting coins and a few others things are forbidden to them. Which was why it was doubly stupid for Wyoming to want an aircraft carrier.

      This is also why there was never a legal state of war against the so-called Confederacy. They were insurrectionists, nothing more.

      Ok, technically Section 10 (iii) allows Congress to consent to a state doing so, but while that would be technically correct, if inane, that isn't the claim you were making, you are still citing the wrong section which might have been passed off as an inadvertent mistake except for your false claim of it being implicit, as opposed to an explicit statement. So you discredit yourself with your predilection for error.

      You're like the "sovereign citizen" I encountered the other week. Didn't believe me when I pointed out that the United States existed before the Constitution. I even showed him the 1783 treaty of Paris.

      That really flustered him since I made him write down his 1789 date. Just so stubbornly refused to own up to his error.

      Like you. There's a record of it.

  14. It almost is there in section 10, yes by raymorris · · Score: 1

    True, at the end of section 10 it almost says that.
    The government has demonstrated time and time again the difference between engaging in war and declaring war, but close enough.

    (Think Korean War, Vietnam War, Persian Gulf War, Bosnia, Haiti, Libya, all the way back the Revolutionary War).

    It was just funny that you said they can't declare war, it says so right here, then copy/pasted an entirely different section, which doesn't say that.

    1. Re:It almost is there in section 10, yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh raymorris, like the child with a hand caught in the cookie jar, you're still trying to avoid admitting how you were wrong, even after I specifically identified the section that showed your error inespecially in referring to "Article 1, section 8" without noting the existence of "Article 1, section 10" which contains the specific forbidding clauses on state powers(and none of which by the way, cover the situation with Facebook here), and even after I pointed it out to you, you didn't even bother to look it up before sputtering further false bluster that just made you look bad.

      Seriously, instead of owning up to your misapprehension, now you're trying to gabble over the difference between declaring war and engaging in war? Might as well claim a difference in minting currency and coining money. Any state government dumb enough to declare war while claiming they weren't engaging in war would probably be dumb enough to put forth that argument, true, but nobody except their fellow ideologues would give that any credence.

      Why don't you just stop, realize that what you said about how you haven't researched enough about this case is more broadly applicable than you realized? You aren't even close to an effective understanding. You should realize by now that your ignorance goes far more deeply than just not understanding the facts of this case, but to a more fundamental level.

  15. Re: end the war against women by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Good job, Billy! $0.50 has been deposited in your Shareblue account.

  16. English not your first language? by raymorris · · Score: 1

    What part of "yes, it's there. Well close enough" do you not understand?

    1. Re:English not your first language? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look, raymorris, you're just going to have to take responsibility for yourself(that being the entity you are, none other), you didn't know enough about the Constitution to understand that it specifically forbade the states from certain actions, most particularly the ones you chose to name, which means you not only cited the wrong section, you got the principles behind it wrong.

      Then you compounded the error, by failing to look up the section itself, and blustering over that, then got trounced again.

      Do yourself a favor, realize how little you know, and address it appropriately. Which I would suggest could be simply remaining silent in the future, or correcting your deficits of comprehension before expounding.

      Try it. You may even like yourself after doing it.