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San Francisco's City-Wide Fiber Internet Plan is Delayed, Future in Doubt (arstechnica.com)

San Francisco's plan to build a city-wide gigabit fiber Internet service won't go forward this year, as city officials decided they need to do more research before asking voters to approve a ballot initiative. From a report: The universal broadband project "has suffered a setback as outgoing Mayor Mark Farrell will not place a tax measure on the November ballot to fund the project before he leaves office in the coming weeks," the San Francisco Examiner reported Sunday. The deadline for Farrell to submit the ballot initiative passed yesterday. In January, the city issued a Request for Qualifications (RFQ) to find companies that are qualified to build the network. After examining the submissions, the city named three entities (Bay City Broadband Partners, FiberGateway, and Sonic Plenary SF Fiber) as "pre-qualified bidders."

109 comments

  1. Wait by argStyopa · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...are you suggesting that we can't simply have everything we want when we want it, and just charge it on our credit card?

    Next you're going to say stuff costs money and we have to pay for it.

    --
    -Styopa
    1. Re: Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or they're succumbing to the bribes and blandishments of the entrenched players without consideration of the values of the public.

      Or they're proceeding with the situation with due caution and consideration to get the most value.

      Hard to say without more examination.

      Practically speaking, it is a good investment for their community, so let's see if we can find a good way to get it done.

    2. Re:Wait by The+Fat+Bastard · · Score: 2

      Retirees will outnumber workers in 2030 and 2/3 of the federal budget will go to social programs. The remaining workers will have to pay more in taxes to support the retired, poor and rich. Fast Internet will be the least of our problems.

    3. Re: Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or they're succumbing to the bribes and blandishments of the entrenched players without consideration of the values of the public.

      Or they're proceeding with the situation with due caution and consideration to get the most value.

      Hard to say without more examination.

      Practically speaking, it is a good investment for their community, so let's see if we can find a good way to get it done.

      Mods, why is this AC's comment at -1? What could possibly be controversial about it to warrant a trolling or flamebait mod?

    4. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Retirees will outnumber workers in 2030 and 2/3 of the federal budget will go to social programs. The remaining workers will have to pay more in taxes to support the retired, poor and rich. Fast Internet will be the least of our problems.

      Well, you could always encourage population growth through immigration.
      Unfortunately, the ignorant baby boomers will still be around and continue to vote against any politician who encourages immigration, or medicare taxes, or keeping social security solvent.

    5. Re:Wait by sconeu · · Score: 2

      Or... Congress could repay the trillions they have "borrowed" from the Social Security Trust Fund...

      If any private business raided their pension plan the way that Congress has raided SS, the executives of that business would be in jail.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    6. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is because we are 3/4 million births per year short of the rate necessary to maintain our population. A collapsing population is a economic disaster. We actually have a system that depends on an expanding one and won't be changing it anytime soon. We will either find a way to continue expanding (i.e. open the doors to a million legal immigrants a year) or collapse. That is the simple math of that situation.

    7. Re:Wait by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      We do encourage legal immigration of skilled and educated, just like the rest of the world.

      People still vote for the USA with their feet, almost certainly, your countrymen prefer America to your nation. I understand you're in denial about this...work on that.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    8. Re: Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not even close to offtopic. The telecom shills are out in force today.

    9. Re:Wait by The+Fat+Bastard · · Score: 1

      I guess you missed the transition from pensions (corporate responsibility with government insurance) to 401ks (personal responsibility with prayers at the Wall Street casino).

    10. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      _,--=#[The Post CRIMER doesn't want you to read!!!]#=--,_ 1)Why-are-people-upset-with-him? 2)What-can-I-do 3)What-are-his-names 4)Who-is-FatCashewsLovesMe 5)How-to-defeat-his-hustles 6)Why-are-there-dashes 7)Pastebin-Copy

      1)Why-are-people-upset-with-himHe makes frequent low quality posts for two reasons:
      Money) BASICALLY: He made thousands of shitty posts & bragged about how much money it made him.
      DETAILS: He wants u to folow his referer links & pick up his cookie. Even if u dont buy what he linked but do buy something else from that site later on he often makes money;He ALSO tries to drive TRAFFIC to his various BLOGS & vlogs.
      Karma)He believes karma acumulates infinitely So he makes lots of pointles posts that r not bad enough to mod down;hoping they wil get moded up;He was a raging ahole when he thoght he had a karma surplus

      2)What-can-I-do DOWNMOD u wil usually get more mod points. If he is postng from a new sock acount w/ krma, get his oldst posts first. DOWNMOD him and AC in fresh thrads early on;Metmods wil reward u. METAMOD his posts. REPLY ONLY ANONYMOUSLY to the most deeply nested coments in his threds it helps hide his posts. Dwnvote his SUBMISSIONS, he uses to get krma. REPORT HIM to slshdot & the afiliate progrms he is usng. DONT MENTION his brand names c**mer.

      3)What-are-his-namesMost famous:Cre|mer Cdre|mer ILoveFatCashews, Anonymous Cashews, The Fat Bastard aka TCDR

      4)Who-is-FatCashewsLoveMe AKA Tardu Lardo,FCLM Funny & anoying; Not me or crimer;He keeps lookout for infestation

      5)How-can-I-avoid-his-hustles --===DONT FOLLOW HIS LINKS!!!===--
      IF YOU MUST:Use a privte tab & nevr buy anything on the same sesion. If he fools u, close tab, cler the cookies for that site. There r sites other than yutube that wil let u watch his videos. I dont know if people view his contnt but I can pictre his jowls jigling at the thoght of people subvrting his business model
      6)Why-are-there-dashes & weird stuffI know most only skim thse posts. I want the most imprtnt infrmton to pop out at a glnce & to keep it shrt. I dont use TCDRs name becase he may think tht he benfits from geting it indxed by serch engnes. Id like 2 thnk TCDR & FCLM for editrial advice

      7)Copy: http://archive.is/TtDrY

    11. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who wrote the Tardchris containment FAQ?

      I think we should add links to additional detailed content offsite that thoroughly explains, with examples, what he will do if he is allowed to run around unchecked. Once the entire site is up to speed on the saga then containing him won't be any extra work for anyone.
      Right now he makes a new sock. Whores for karma as much as his posting limit will allow. Start spamming his projects as long as his karma holds out.
      He's contained because he gets caught in the karma whoring phases of his cycle, containment will become effortless and endlessly self-sustaining when we have the whole forum reporting tardchris in his larval stages.

    12. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      Cryptofeces Lepidoptera Creimerus infestation is a serious problem. Not only are they capable of reproducing asexually like amoebas, they can also lay eggs hermaphroditically in unexpected places. They can disguise eggs as something useful to fool the unaware, sometimes pretending to be a haiku author, blogger, vlogger, or IT closet cleaner.

      Very dangerous. They can seemingly reproduce out of the cosmic background radiation, even if you step on twelve of them, there's always one you miss.

      Don't be fooled by the C. Lepidoptera Creimerus's innocuous, rolly-polly, and almost friendly appearance; despite its great size, stupid demeanor, and bedraggled toothless appearance, they have the hardiness of a tardigrade.

      Only a concerted, targeted downmodding campaign has been shown effective in controlling this dangerous pest.

      Experience shows that stopping such a campaign leads to C. Lepidoptera Creimerus returning within days.

      Don't let it happen again!
      --
      Balena!

    13. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or you can get a life and move on.

    14. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good idea! I will get a life. I am going to get myself 75 Youtube channels, 75 blogs and 75 websites and I am going to spam the planet with my amazon links!

      I can't wait to begin enjoying my new life!

      I am sure you will like it too but be careful, I might steal your revenue streams :)

      CROFLOL!
      --
      Balena!

    15. Re: Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, taxpayers will wise up and realize that social programs, like all "public money," is in fact taxpayer money being stolen from the productive and given to the unproductive who feel entitled to mooch and loot. The sooner we end all forms of welfare-for the poor, for the elderly, for foreigners as foreign aid-the sooner the economy will again incentivize personal betterment (no more free food means thugs have to get jobs), healthy demographics (have kids so someone can look after you in old age), and international development (stop relying on fish given to you and start learning to fish for yourself). Plus, the national budget will be much easier.

    16. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Investing is only really a casino if you invest like a complete idiot. Say, instead of a fund or at least a diverse collection of investments, you invest in old coins and penny stocks.

    17. Re: Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I never listened to Ayn Rand, but then I saw an anonymous post on a technology website, and I was convinced!

    18. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With the majority of people investing in index funds, the ups and downs of the stock market will become more intense. Can you afford a 50% drop in the your retirement savings just before you retire? Can you postpone retirement for ten years for the market to restore your retirement funds?

    19. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh? Why would lots of people investing in index funds make the ups and downs on the market more intense? You would expect it to do the exact opposite. Also, a lot of index track essentially the entire market. Saying index funds usage will make the more volatile is nonsensical.

      Creimer, look at what a shitty investor you are. Why are you giving advice? Take your natural instincts and do the exact opposite.

    20. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most people say they're investing in index funds but it's clear they never look at their 401k. There are thousands of funds for people to invest in and if the Dow Jones Index takes a dive good investors own several different funds and most investment sites also warn then if a combination of funds contains a concentration.
      You'd know this if you were actively managing your grown up retirement savings and not hording coins and wasting time on get rich quick schemes.

      Tell me, when will you start adding Lu Laroe Wraps and Herbalife to your retirement portfolio of get rich quick schemes?

    21. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Creimer, look at what a shitty investor you are. Why are you giving advice?

      For the past year I've been giving chris free advice and then used it in my own life. I've made or saved thousands of dollars since I started. Thanks chris!
      The bad example that lives in all of us.

    22. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well I doubt that but you do work at the FBI! Hurry up and pay off your credit cards.
      Don't make threats to people on the internet chris.

    23. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Say, instead of a fund or at least a diverse collection of investments, you invest in old coins and penny stocks.

      Chris is the ultimate contrarian investor.

    24. Re:Wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've reported you for harassment and threats

  2. yurope checking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    European here, fiber based networks available even in the remote mountainous regions, or far out in the archipelago. You're all welcome over here.

    1. Re:yurope checking in by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Informative

      Europeans and their quaint ideas on remote. There are spots in the US have may have dozen people in the area of an European country.
      The US is has the 3rd largest population, but is 50th in population density.

      So that means a lot more long last mile connections. So in Europe you can have the bulk of your population in a urban center, this allow it to be economically feasible to give a connection to a more remote area because the population of the remote area is much smaller.

      That isn't to say the US isn't at fault for being behind the times. We havn't had any leadership willing or able to shake up the big telecom companies and push them out for the greater good.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:yurope checking in by Luthair · · Score: 2

      I think you'd be surprised at the ruralness of some places in Europe, that said country population density isn't particularly relevant when we're talking about wiring a city.

    3. Re:yurope checking in by Gabest · · Score: 1

      Are you taking about San Francisco?

    4. Re: yurope checking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US is has the 3rd largest population, but is 50th in population density.

      Still densely populated compared to European nations such as Sweden, Norway, Finland, Iceland, and Russia. All of whom manage to provide good internet connections to the majority of citizens. In the US you can't even get a good internet connection in cities such as San Francisco or in the state of Washington.

    5. Re:yurope checking in by alvinrod · · Score: 2

      That isn't to say the US isn't at fault for being behind the times. We havn't had any leadership willing or able to shake up the big telecom companies and push them out for the greater good.

      I think the problem is that governments keep selling to a single bidder for the entire job and end up getting fucked time and time again, but I suppose it's always a new set of idiots in office making the same mistake so there's a little bit of an excuse.

      The better idea in this case would be to identify as many companies as possible that could participate and give them each a smaller piece of the total work to be done, with some pieces of the work only being parceled out after a company has shown its ability to do a good job. The promise of future work for good performance (or the threat of no work for poor performance) will keep the companies from slacking and doing a crap job, and those who can't manage that don't get more work. Wiring fiber is something that would need to be done to the same code or standards regardless of who does it, so this isn't a case where you end up trying to integrate dozens of different solutions or smaller pieces that have little hope of fitting together.

      As funny as it may sound, "socialist" Europe frequently has better market competition in many areas than the U.S. does. When companies have to compete for business, it greatly favors the consumer. Some of this can be laid at the feet of population density, as for example cellular wireless carriers aren't rushing to erect towers in bumfuck Nebraska, but it ultimately doesn't matter what allows for greater competition to exist as long as it does.

    6. Re: yurope checking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      . So in Europe you can have the bulk of your population in a urban center, this allow it to be economically feasible to give a connection to a more remote area because the population of the remote area is much smaller

      And then you learn less than 200 counties have over half the US population. And the rest tend to have concentrations of population as well.

      Meaning your claims fail on cursory examination.

    7. Re: yurope checking in by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      What part of Europe are you talking about? In the US, there are large sections that aren't so much rural, they are almost vacant. The domains of desert rats and hermits.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    8. Re:yurope checking in by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      The thing about areas of low population density is that most people *are somewhere else*.

      We're not (yet) talking about whether it's economically feasible to connect the person who is the absolute furthest from anyone else (and may have chosen to be there deliberately), but rather the people at 90th percentile or even the 99th percentile.

      Also, I don't see why we should need political leadership to encourage companies to make money. What they need is corporate leadership that are actual capitalists.

    9. Re:yurope checking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some usa city jurisdictions do contain large swaths of very few people. Probably a peculiarity of politics, tax base, and claiming possible future land from neighboring city jurisdictions. Cites are sometimes much larger than their dense downtown area.

    10. Re:yurope checking in by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      Yeah. San Francisco is amazingly rural. You'll often find entire stretches of sidewalk miles long with only one or two people living on them....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    11. Re:yurope checking in by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      I think the problem is that governments keep selling to a single bidder for the entire job and end up getting fucked time and time again, but I suppose it's always a new set of idiots in office making the same mistake so there's a little bit of an excuse.

      I think you are wrong about this and California shows why. CA law doesn't allow exclusive deals between municipalities and ISPs. So why do CA residents have so few choices? I believe the answer is that wired Internet service is a natural monopoly.

      We need to recognize that wired Internet is currently a natural monopoly and regulate it as such.

      Technology may change its status as a natural monopoly, but the best placed companies (cellphone carriers) don't seem interested in doing anything about it (limited monthly bandwidth makes cellphone Internet impractical as a replacement for wired Internet).

      The UK doesn't have this natural monopoly problem for Internet service, but the UK requires incumbents to allow competitors to user their last mile infrastructure. Remember when the USA had CLECs? Lobbying and obstruction by the ILECs killed that.

      https://arstechnica.com/tech-p...

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    12. Re: yurope checking in by larkost · · Score: 1

      There actually are large parts of the Alps where there is basically no population. Ironically, there has been a lot of effort to make sure that there is basic cell service there, so that hikers who get lost (days from anything) can still be found in emergencies (which cost more than the cell infrastructure).

      However, the U.S. (and even more so Canada) does still make Europe look very densely populated. A prime example is the state of Wyoming. It has about the same land area as the United Kingdom (253sq. km. vs. 242), but only 580k inhabitance vs. the U.K.'s 65.6 million. So roughly 100 times less.

    13. Re:yurope checking in by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Liar. You should check the immigration requirements.

      Your countrymen are voting with their feet. Bet there are more here than Americans living in your nation.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    14. Re:yurope checking in by RhettLivingston · · Score: 2

      Our lesser population density is no excuse for not having the best infrastructure in the world in our most populous cities or even states. California's population density is double that of France, slightly greater than Germany's, and nearly equal to Europe's population density as a whole. No excuse.

    15. Re:yurope checking in by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Europeans and their quaint ideas on remote. There are spots in the US have may have dozen people in the area of an European country. The US is has the 3rd largest population, but is 50th in population density.

      The 50th in what? Not population density, the US is 191st in the world with 33 people/km^2. I'll won't repeat the notation, but the EU would - if it were a country - have a density of 116 so on average it's true. Wiring up the UK (271) is like Conneticut (286), Germany (232) is like Maryland (238), Italy (201) is like Delaware (187), France (124) is like Florida (145), Spain (92) is like California (97), Greece (82) is like Virginia (81). Then there's a pretty big gap in western Europe, we don't have anything like Texas (40). But we do have Sweden (23) which is like Arizona (23) and Norway (16) that is like Maine (16) that here in Europe have pretty damn good Internet, though to be fair most people live along the coastline. If we were evenly distributed inland it'd be much harder.

      But yeah if you're in Nevada (10), Nebraska (9), Idaho (7), New Mexico (6), South Dakota (4), North Dakota (4), Montana (2), Wyoming (2) or Alaska (0)... yeah, that's really out in the boonies. Though you'd really need get into the details like in Las Vegas you should definitively be able to get a decent Internet connection, how well you should be covered depends on how "lumpy" the population is, like there are places with broadband in Canada (4) even if the overall density suggests you don't. I mean where there's literally nobody you don't need to bring broadband, just to the places people live. But if you're the one farmer in the middle of a huge farm then of course it really is that rural.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    16. Re:yurope checking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no what's needed is corporate leadership that understand that a business is for providing a product or service.

    17. Re: yurope checking in by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      And that does not include Alaska that makes Wyoming look positively populated.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    18. Re:yurope checking in by cavreader · · Score: 1

      Why is SanFranciso or any other city wanting to tax their citizens to fund the fiber upgrades and other communication infrastructure upgrades? California is home to the wealthiest technology companies in the world. Tax them. Google could fund fiber upgrades for the entire state of California with their petty cash. Facebook, Twitter, Google, Apple, MS, Comcast, and every other billion dollar technology company should be required by law to fund the technological infrastructure they depend on to rake in their billions of dollars in profit. If they want to put that type of initiative on any ballot I am pretty sure it would pass by a spectacular margin. If the politicians resist then start looking at the campaign donors for those politicians causing the problem.

      The US just needs to use the Chinese playbook when it comes to bending the multi-billion dollar corporations to their will. US companies wanting access to the Chinese markets are required to take on a Chinese partner if they intend to build a presence inside of China. This allows China unfettered access to any IP the corporation uses in their products and services. China isn't stealing IP the corporations are handing their IP over freely all for a chance to sell their products and services in the Chinese market.

    19. Re: yurope checking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, the U.S. (and even more so Canada) does still make Europe look very densely populated. A prime example is the state of Wyoming. It has about the same land area as the United Kingdom (253sq. km. vs. 242), but only 580k inhabitance vs. the U.K.'s 65.6 million. So roughly 100 times less.

      And then you learn that the actual distribution of population in Wyoming is concentrated in a few locales which could easily be served by municipal ISPs.

    20. Re: yurope checking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And then you look and see that approximately 75% of the state of Alaska's population is on 3-5% of the land area, and even cities like Sitka and Juneau are deceptive in size, with most of the population being within a much smaller area.

    21. Re: yurope checking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1 or 2? Try down at fishermans wharf, it is ridiculously packed with urban outdoorsman.

    22. Re: yurope checking in by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      The same is true of Wyoming.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    23. Re: yurope checking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Australia sees your population density ......... And lowers it.

      Australia has slightly smaller landmass than mainland USA with less than 10% the population, and the vast majority of that population along the east coast strip from Brisbane down to Melbourne.

    24. Re:yurope checking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US is has the 3rd largest population, but is 50th in population density.

      So that means a lot more long last mile connections.

      SF was a big city, last I checked. Rural America can avoid the expensive "last mile" the same way rural Europe does - use radio links to get Internet to the farms. Basically, wifi on a larger scale. Doesn't work in denser towns because of radio congestion - but those are exactly the places where the last mile is sufficiently cheap so no problem.

    25. Re: yurope checking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, San Francisco certainly falls into that category. Oh well, better wait for Verizon or Comcast to give you that fiber. Private enterprise knows what's best (for itself).

    26. Re:yurope checking in by CWCheese · · Score: 1

      Look at how Starbucks and Amazon reacted when progressive Seattle attempted to levy a head tax on each employee of large companies to fund homeless housing plans. The big techs are exactly the same, they have been actively creating strategies to avoid taxation for decades and they won't willingly to participate in a tax to fibre-wire SF.

      --
      Have a Day!
    27. Re:yurope checking in by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

      You are going to run a fiber network 300 miles into a desert to serve 100 people? Because there are plenty of examples like that.

          I don't think you grasp how big the country is, because you are from Western Europe, which is just a bit bigger than the state of Texas, depending on where you draw the line at "western". You can drive on a single interstate highway (I-10) for 890 or so miles/1400 Km without leaving the state of Texas, and about 800 miles/1300 Km on Interstate 5 all within the state of California. It's 1400 Km from Berlin to Madrid - and that is a common one-day driving distance in the USA. And I have to do that *3 straight days* to get from California to Indiana, and have done it something like 20 times.

              There are places along major highways with no significant population centers, or even a gas station, for 100 miles. Around California, it is not unheard of to do a 200 mile round trip just to go to dinner.

            This is why many Europeans fail to grasp why the solutions that work there, do not work here.

    28. Re: yurope checking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the sense that claiming a vast size while ignoring the actual distribution is quite more concentrated? Yes, that was mentioned already.

      Like many people, you seem to have trouble with the concept that a mathematical function is not relevant to actual human activity.

    29. Re:yurope checking in by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Given we're talking about San Francisco what really matters is the ubanisation rate, something which puts USA on par with the average of Europe.
      What's your excuse now?

      It's like those idiot politicians in Australia saying "wows me Australia is such a big country" in response to someone 2km out of the centre of a city with a population of 2.2million people not having access to anything faster than ADSL2 with a significant cable loss.

    30. Re:yurope checking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the greater good!

    31. Re:yurope checking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are going to run a fiber network 300 miles into a desert to serve 100 people? Because there are plenty of examples like that.

      Oh god, the horrors, running a fiber network 300 miles! That's unpossible!

      I don't think you grasp how big the country is, because you are from Western Europe, which is just a bit bigger than the state of Texas, depending on where you draw the line at "western". You can drive on a single interstate highway (I-10) for 890 or so miles/1400 Km without leaving the state of Texas, and about 800 miles/1300 Km on Interstate 5 all within the state of California. It's 1400 Km from Berlin to Madrid - and that is a common one-day driving distance in the USA.

      I don't think you grasp how your random agglomeration of numbers with no relevant to the actual population distribution or area size is utter babbling nonsense. And it's not even correct, unless you're defining "Western Europe" more narrowly than most, but since your example includes Berlin to Madrid, I doubt it. With those countries you're talking much larger than Texas.

      Of course, 800 miles is not a common one-day driving distance in the USA, in actuality, it's quite extreme, as you'd be either going 100 miles per hour for 8 hours, or at a slower speed, driving almost half the day. That would be a terrible way to live your life and not pleasant for long-haul truckers either.

      And I have to do that *3 straight days* to get from California to Indiana, and have done it something like 20 times.

      Sounds nothing like the actual construction of telecommunications networks.

      There are places along major highways with no significant population centers, or even a gas station, for 100 miles.

      So what?

      Around California, it is not unheard of to do a 200 mile round trip just to go to dinner.

      Sounds rather wasteful. Have you never learned to cook at home? Maybe you just don't have good restaurants around you?

      This is why many Europeans fail to grasp why the solutions that work there, do not work here.

      Because of the sheer obstinate willful intransigence of Americans that you come up with spurious objections that are easily mocked for their irrelevance? Well, yes, that is an impediement to your life, but why do you keep hurting yourself?

      Dozens of communities in America have already built high-speed fiber networks. Why aren't you supporting that in your own neck of the woods? Why not try to get a quality restaurant even?

      No wait, wait, you'd rather shit yourself than actually pick your ass up off the ground and use a toilet.

    32. Re:yurope checking in by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "they won't be willingly to participate"

      They shouldn't even have a choice in the matter. Any corporation not adhering to US tax laws would invite the IRS into their corporate boardrooms. The IRS makes the NSA, CIA, NSA, and DOD look like rank amateurs when it comes to stock piling sensitive data and handing out fines and other drastic penalties. Corporations are easy to hurt because their vested interests are out in the open for all to see. The politicians in this country put their campaign finances ahead of the people they are suppose to serve once they get in office. While everyone is busy castigating Trump 24/7 the real people responsible for allowing the corporations a free hand go unnoticed. The President does not have the power to create and enact laws. A Presidents only weapon in this shameful situation is the ability to veto legislation but veto's can be nullified if 2/3rds of Congress wants to. And Presidents go through great pains to use the veto power as little as possible. Overriding a Presidential veto makes the President look weak.

  3. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    Why waste all this money when Comcast already probably has the city completely wired or is preparing to do so? This is a waste of taxpayer money, and quite frankly a business the taxpayer should not be involved in.

    1. Re:Why? by king+neckbeard · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You answered your own question when you said "Comcast."

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    2. Re:Why? by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Comcast is accessible to people who are willing and able to pay for the service, We as customers are paying more for infrastructure that isn't going to our homes, as they will wire a community with only 50% may want to pay for the service. The wires are there, but they just decline service.

      Having a government ISP All people pay via taxes for internet, which is overall cheaper because everyone is paying, and more people would use it because they would have affordable access.

      Even if you buy a cabin in the woods and need to pay taxes for internet that you may not personally use, it will provider internet for that local grocery store who will process your credit card payment for food, update their inventory, so when you go on your away from it all vacation, you are not hunting for a place that you can buy that one thing you are missing.

      Internet today is a key infrastructure. Like our roads, electrical grid, plowing, police, fire protection... There is a benefit to you even if you are not actively using it.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:Why? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Every demographic in the city needs equal access to new networks to replace the paper insulated wireline.
      Internet will allow all communities to get educated and then have more people from different demographics around the city attend university.
      The university system will then take on the same demographics of the educated and university ready city population.
      Internet will make all the city smart so everyone can pass university entrance exams.
      No internet was the one thing that was holding back entire generations in some parts of city from doing exam and book study.
      In the past only wealthy people had internet and that is why they could study with the internet and then pass university entrance exams.
      Once the internet is free the IQ will go up all over the city and every community will get into university
      Internet all over the city and university for everyone.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    4. Re:Why? by HornWumpus · · Score: 0

      There are no housed poors left in SF. Hunter's Point was the last of it. It's in the middle of being dozed and redeveloped into yuppie housing.

      You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. The poors use the net to watch videos that make them dumber. Tell them: "It's all someone else's fault!"

      One problem with the net, it lets fuckwits find each other, reinforce their stupidity via circle jerk (e.g. Antifa).

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:Why? by ScentCone · · Score: 1, Troll

      Having a government ISP All people pay via taxes for internet, which is overall cheaper because everyone is paying, and more people would use it because they would have affordable access.

      Hilarious. Nearly half the country doesn't even pay any income tax. Large percentages have their utilities (like power and water) subsidized or entirely paid for by other people. Your notion of "everybody paying" isn't even on the same planet as the reality of the situation.

      And that rural grocery store? A slow, laggy satellite internet service is just find for the very low bandwidth needed to run a few transactions at the register. That's already available, and will be even cheaper as some newer low-orbit swarm solutions start to kick in. Nobody is going to drag fiber down every farm road and up every mountain gravel road for universal service. It would cost a hundred thousand dollars to serve some single farm houses.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    6. Re:Why? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Comcast is accessible to people who are willing and able to pay for the service,

      No. It isn't. Cable coverage is garbage. I've lived in a little neighborhood where one street has it and a nearly-parallel street you can literally hit with a rock and which has just as many homes doesn't, and on a loop road where both ends of the loop have coverage but the middle doesn't.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You neglected to say whether any and all "internet taxes" that the government collects would be enough to deploy nationwide wireline fiber broadband, much less somebody's cabin in the woods. People with internet addiction tend to be rather naive. As for the "key infrastructure" argument, apparently a large number of Americans get along just fine with the connectivity they've got. One might hope that increasingly powerful cell phones and cord-cutting would make the nation's ISP's nervous enough to roll out internet connectivity that people really want, but so far I think cell phones are just reducing demand for wireline connections. Maybe big cell carriers could do more with their backhaul networks. Stay tuned.

    8. Re:Why? by CWCheese · · Score: 1

      Hilarious. Nearly half the country doesn't even pay any income tax. Large percentages have their utilities (like power and water) subsidized or entirely paid for by other people. Your notion of "everybody paying" isn't even on the same planet as the reality of the situation.

      yup, spot on. The half of the nation that pays the income tax is even smaller in terms of absolute dollars because the tech titan robber barons hold nearly all the wealth in tax advantaged offshore accounts, so the burden falls on the ever shrinking middle class bums

      --
      Have a Day!
  4. What happened to the city-wide wifi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What happened to the citywide wifi initiative of the 2000s? Oh, now just selected public areas. If the city can't get that right, fiber had no chance.

    1. Re:What happened to the city-wide wifi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you couldn't even get Google in 2014 to roll out it fiber network in your city, despite SF being the techno capital of the US, and instead choosing cities like Chattanooga, TN, then you know that the municipal gov is too much of a pain to deal with.
      https://pando.com/2014/02/25/having-being-burned-once-before-google-wont-bring-fiber-to-san-francisco/

      The fact that four South Bay cities are among the 34 announced on Wednesday suggests that there’s something about San Francisco specifically, not California generally, that’s keeping Fiber away. And there is: Google knows San Francisco too well -- and it’s been burned here before.

      https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/S-F-stalling-Wi-Fi-plans-Google-executive-2551901.php

      In an interview with The Chronicle, Chris Sacca, who leads Google's special projects, voiced frustration with what he called the city's slow negotiating style. Sacca said that talks to come up with a final contract have advanced little since they started and that officials have made unreasonable demands, including a request for free computers and a share in revenues. "Every meeting is like the first," he said. >

    2. Re:What happened to the city-wide wifi? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      SF? Techno capital?

      No. Just no. That's SanJose...Perhaps Berlin, if your talking about the _shitty_ music.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    3. Re: What happened to the city-wide wifi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you couldn't even get Google in 2014 to roll out it fiber network in your city, despite SF being the techno capital of the US, and instead choosing cities like Chattanooga, TN, then you know that the municipal gov is too much of a pain to deal with.

      Come again? Chattanooga's EPB was rolling before there was a Google Fiber.

  5. Perhaps they should house the homeless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps they should house the homeless instead or at least clean up the needles and the feces on the streets.
    And maybe pick up all those discarded e bikes and scooters

    1. Re:Perhaps they should house the homeless by alvinrod · · Score: 1

      It's probably much easier to just wire everything for really good internet so no one really has need to leave their home or apartment and step over, around, or through the aforementioned obstacles. Thankfully, in a few more decades global warming should have progressed to the point where the rising ocean tides will sweep clean the streets and it will be safe to venture outside again.

    2. Re:Perhaps they should house the homeless by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Fiber internet to the parked RV and the tent?

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    3. Re:Perhaps they should house the homeless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      House the homeless? Hell, they should strap wifi access devices to them and set them up as wifi hotspots. It's been done before, thought it was largely a publicity stunt at the SxSW festival in 2012. Let them earn a little cash that doesn't come from begging or thievery.

  6. The real reason by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    I bet it's because the fibers weren't free range vegan fibers so some outrage culture activists threw a fit.

    1. Re:The real reason by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure it's because the workers were scared of getting dysentery or hepatitis from all the human waste in the streets.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    2. Re:The real reason by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      I wish you were kidding. I haven't actually seen any sewage yet here in San Francisco, but I've been up here all week this week, and the smell reminds me of the few times I went to Ciudad Juarez as a kid (across the border from El Paso), where you'd see cracks in the sidewalk with sewage bubbling up through them. Every time I come up here from the South Bay, I'm reminded of why I try to avoid coming up here.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    3. Re:The real reason by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Wish I was kidding to. SoCal has some serious issues they need to deal with and instead of doing it, people are looking in the opposite direction.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
  7. Screw San Francisco by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We need another earthquake to flatten out all the expensive housing and the hipster scum that lives there.

  8. NIMBY by Zorro · · Score: 1

    Lasers? Not in MY one square meter back yard!

  9. Australia by johnjones · · Score: 1

    Americans complain about population density, leadership or telecommunications companies... ha Australians have beer...
           

    1. Re:Australia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank Josef Groll for that. Wait.. ;)

  10. Sans Cisco by Gabest · · Score: 1

    Would be appropriate.

  11. ATT by elcor · · Score: 2

    I think that if an investigation is done on this, we'll find that it fell through because ATT lobbied against it, they're the only provider there, provide low speed at high cost.

    1. Re:ATT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sonic is already installing fiber in many neighborhoods in San Francisco. I've been enjoying symmetrical gigabit internet in my sleepy little beach neighborhood for two years now.

      One way or another there will be fiber everywhere one day, it's just a matter of if it's 100% commercial or if the city can get it to everyone that wants it in a more 'public utility' type of way.

  12. and again ... by polar+red · · Score: 1

    Monopolists win !

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    Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
  13. All your public is belong to private by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    Can't have competition in a Mercantalist society.

    Capitalism requires full informed competition, and protection of the Public Good.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  14. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 0

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  15. SF almost a decade behind Chattaooga? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/04/technology/fast-internet-service-speeds-business-development-in-chattanooga.html

  16. Where have we seen this politcal pattern before? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hint: everywhere. Promise big, spread some money around, move on to the next batch of suckers without actually delivering anything.

  17. SF, SV in same mini-state by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Regarding how long this process is taking in San Francisco -

    If California is divided into separate mini-states, and if San Francisco and Silicon Valley are put into the same mini-state, and so forced to work closely with each other, then that mini-state would not work well.

    In San Francisco, projects can be delayed a long time by reviews and protests. People in Mountain View, Cupertino and Sunnyvale are used to getting projects done faster. SF and Silicon Valley people would drive each other crazy.

  18. s*** hits the flann in San Fran by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You know, if municipal broadband can't work at the Silicon Valley millionaire's shiny city on a hill, that probably means that municipal broadband is a pipe dream and the making of yet another California boondoggle.

    People should be paying more attention to the legal environment that anyone deploying a network is going to have to navigate.

  19. Why use wired at all? by bluegutang · · Score: 2

    In the (European) country where I live, for about $15/month you can get a cellular data package with 100GB of data per month. Download/upload speeds are routinely over 1MB/second. Nowadays, I don't even have a wired internet connection at home anymore, I just use this instead. And it's actually more reliable in my experience than wired internet was.

    I think San Francisco should contract with the cell phone companies to roll this out over the entire city (i.e. put up some more cell towers). It would probably be a lot cheaper than wired internet. Why waste money on a technology which is becoming obsolete?

  20. Ayn Rand was a welfare mooch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ayn Rand was a worthless foreign history major who exploited the generosity of the American people, instead of coming here and getting a real job she became a 'writer' where she was allowed to poison our culture with her foreign ideas. Then after all the USA did for her she predictably ran into the comfortable arms of our social welfare programs and sucked the government teat until she died.

    Her whole life she was a bullheaded cheapskate.
    As a result she smoked her whole life and wouldn't listen to anyone who claimed the habit was unhealthy. The weak mind of the foreigner lacks long term planning and will squander everything in pursuit of fleeting short term pleasures.

    She developed lung cancer and due to her irresponsible personal finances she ran out of money quick and went on welfare until the day she died.

    All her poor decisions coming home to roost she did it all to herself and expected the US taxpayers to foot the bill for her foreign ass. Only if we can only learn our lessons, limit immigration to top engineers and scientists, and stop giving hand outs to people who refuse to better their own situations. Only then the situation in America will improve.

  21. Have you seen US cellular caps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    2GB a month is considered a good plan. Some will give 2GB of high speed and then 16kb/s the rest of the month. Some will charge per megabyte or gigabyte above that. Most also charge more for tethering if it is available at all.

    US cellular service is the only thing *WORSE* than US internet service, at least in the communications world. And that is saying a lot.