Slashdot Mirror
Search is on For Cobalt-Free Batteries As Metal Gets Increasingly Rare and Expensive (technologyreview.com)
An anonymous reader writes: Conamix, a little-known startup based in Ithaca, New York, has raised several million dollars to accelerate its development of cobalt-free materials for lithium-ion batteries, the latest sign that companies are eager to find alternatives to the increasingly rare and expensive metal. The problem: The price of cobalt has more than doubled in recent months, as global demand skyrockets for the lithium-ion batteries that power electric vehicles and smartphones. It's also being driven up by the fact that the metal is mined primarily in the Democratic Republic of Congo, where labor and corruption issues are rife. Earlier this year, the nation decided to raise royalties on cobalt and other metals.
Given the ambitious expansion plans of lithium-ion producers, the world will face cobalt shortages by the early 2020s, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance. This is keeping prices of lithium-ion batteries high and preventing major automakers from lining up long-term supply deals on favorable terms. The mounting threat to electric-vehicle growth has prompted a growing number of companies to explore other solutions.
Given the ambitious expansion plans of lithium-ion producers, the world will face cobalt shortages by the early 2020s, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance. This is keeping prices of lithium-ion batteries high and preventing major automakers from lining up long-term supply deals on favorable terms. The mounting threat to electric-vehicle growth has prompted a growing number of companies to explore other solutions.
DRC, how can I explain it? I'll take it, frame by frame it
To have y'all all jumpin', shoutin', sayin' it
D is for "democratic," R is for "republic'," scratch your temple
The last C, well, that's not that simple
It's sort of like, well, another way to call a cat a kitten
It's five little letters that are missin' here
You get on occasion if the other party isn't gamin'
It seems I gotta start the explainin', bust it
You ever had a girl and met her on a nice hello
You get her name and number
And then left feelin' real mellow
You get home, wait a day
She's what you wanna know about, then you call up
And it’s her girlfriend’s or her cousin’s house?!
It’s not a front, a F to the R to the O to the N to the T;
It's just her boyfriend's at her house
(Oh, that’s why she’s scary)
It's DRC, time other people's what you get it
There's no room for relationship, there's just room to hit it
How many brothers out there know just what I'm gettin' at
Who think it's wrong 'cause I was splittin' and co-hittin' that
Well, if you do, that's DRC and you're not down with it
But if you don't, here's your membership
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Meanwhile, Tesla has been caught lying to investors by a whistleblower, laid off 9% of the workforce, had another fire and is building cars in tents. This is all due to the "shorts" though, not the Tesla management.
Freedom Time! FUCK YEAH!
Freedom Time! FUCK YEAH!
Durka Durka
What, for price-gouging on a scarce resource people want when you control the supply?
Sounds like a distinctly American virtue to me: the freedom of assholes to make an obscene profit because you can is practically a religion to the Republicans. Doubly so if you can make the taxpayers pay the costs while you reap the profits.
I mean, giving it to you cheaper than they could would be communism, and that would be evil, right?
Maybe just let the market decide this, apparently it's super good at things like that.
Anyone ever hear anything more about that oddball lithium battery design John Goodenough was working on? The one that looked more like a capacitor, physically.
He did a slashdot interview last year though I never saw any related stories after that.
https://hardware.slashdot.org/...
Or maybe it’s time to stop being racist and actually bring proper jobs housing food and sanitation to African countries if you want their raw materials.
i've mentioned this before, on other articles that mention lithium batteries and electric vehicles. cobalt is not the only element involved that's in short supply: there isn't enough copper, there isn't enough neodymium, and lithium is a material that explodes when brought into contact with air and water. copper piping and wiring is already stolen from buildings and from church roofs.
neodymium, i don't know if you've ever investigated how it's refined, but it's a radioactive-decay byproduct, meaning that it's only found in amongst *radioactive* deposits (where do you think those are dumped?) and the actual refining itself requires a THOUSAND LITRES of boiling sulphuric acid per 1kg of neodymium. the black market factory photos from remote places in china are shocking... chimney stacks just dumping sulphuric acid fumes directly into the air, and the waste dumped in the nearest river, poisoning the local environment for hundreds of miles downstream.
and we have western governments, whose populations of course do not live anywhere near these mines and factories in Congo or China, banning diesel cars on the basis that they "create pollution", i mean.. .i'm really shocked by the total lack of understanding and appreciation of the true consequences of tthese "environmentally-friendly" decisions.
i've been trying for many years now, but i honestly have absolutely no idea how to get this across to people that we need to trim down the *amount* of materials needed in vehicles. Category L7e "Heavy Quadricycles" such as Riversimple's design concept, the Renault Twizzy and so on, these are perfect: tuned up these small sub-350kg vehicles can go nearly110km/h (70mph), just like some quad-bikes, and that's with only 25HP!
the concept is called "Mass Decompounding", you don't need power-assisted brakes, you don't need power-steering, you can use cross-radial hard silicon compound tires which will last 80,000 miles and have a rolling resistance coeffficient three times less than a standard tire... *all because of the dramatically-reduced weight*. and that reduced weight means a smaller engine, and if it's hybrid or electric it means a smaller battery.
This is why I always wondered why electric car enthusiasts just automatically assumed that battery prices would just keep dropping and dropping. Sometimes as you use more and more of a material or resource, it may begin to become scarcer, thus actually RAISING the price.
not enormous resources on the internet to support all that self important drivel, hoss
Maybe if they got rid of their corrupt leaders the billions in aid may have had some effect other than lining the pockets of said leaders.
Yeah, that worked wonderfully in the middle east two decades ago right? Oh, right...we've been 'fighting terror' in the area ever since.
Now, if the USA turned imperialistic and claimed these places as territories maybe.
You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
Operation Enduring Congo Freedom!
Colin Chapman says "Simplify, then add lightness" from 40 years ago.
Freedom first. All the other stuff can wait. Look at how much we did for the average Iraqi
How about we pay them what they ask for their raw materials, and leave managing their country up to them?
*Takes a look at this "Twizzy" thing, immediately realizes that the OP is someone who can never be reasoned with as they just simply don't "get" what the common person wants.
They resisted our freedom. Hardly our fault.
Aluminum can be substituted for copper.
Neodymium is used in NiMH batteries, which are on the way out. Lithium batteries don't use it.
Lithium in lithium ion batteries doesn't explode. That's usually the electrolyte, although if you overcharge them you can get reactive lithium to plate out.
a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
Or maybe it’s time to stop being racist and actually bring proper jobs housing food and sanitation to African countries if you want their raw materials.
Or maybe that's their own fucking problem.
It isn't like we went there and removed all those things. They are simply backwards, like they've always been.
If there is one thing history can teach you, it is that you can't force someone in another country to adopt your values.
In the 'Mass Decompounding' line but even better. The Ariel atom.
You do want to cut weight, but you want to ADD power. Also sticky tires, not slippery ones.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Permanent magnet motors - which Tesla and many others either use or are moving to - use gobs of neodymium and dysprosium. Typically 2-3 kg of neo magnets per motor.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
i've mentioned this before, on other articles that mention lithium batteries and electric vehicles
WALL OF TEXT
It's almost like we don't fucking care what you have to say, and saying it here doesn't affect anything in the real world anyway.
How's that working out for Puerto Rico lately?
You sound like you live in what they call 'the land of the free' and concern yourself with expanding that freedom to other nations. Touching.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
You break it, you bought it.
In the short term, that's the way it is. But the DRC produces under 60% (still too much) of the world's supply, not 100%. Most other producers just make cobalt as a byproduct of copper and nickel.
Cobalt has other uses, pigment, alloying steel, 'superalloys' and matrix for tungsten-carbide. https://www.statista.com/stati...
8800 metric tons/year in the USA, 'Batteries' didn't even make the chart for end uses in 2015.
I agree, the DRC haven't started any world wars. We should just continue watching the Europeans, closely.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Gasoline. The dinosaurs got it right. Stick THAT in your Prius.
How about we pay them what they ask for their raw materials, and leave managing their country up to them?
Certainly, that way we get to keep selling yachts and Manhattan condo penthouses to their elite kleptocrats.
So it's The King of Belgium's problem?
I don't think the Congolese are going to be happy about that arrangement, but I'd buy the pay per view of the king arriving to take charge.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Sure, but if you claim batteries are the demand you look like you're ignorant. Also, if the neodymium gets too expensive you can always switch back to older technologies.
a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
> Maybe just let the market decide this, apparently it's super good at things like that.
Yeah, it tends to be.
The price gouging via government surcharge there is to line the pockets of the kleptocrats, either via direct corruption or indirect (bribes) or most likely both. This is why dictatorships form.
The free market, stuffed by this government-controlled monopoly, is looking for "substitutes" in the economic sense, which is why the price of commodities drops decade after decade sans "intervention", which screws this process up.
This has a granularity of years though, to bring prices back down, if not a decade or more. But it is reliable as sin.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news...
at least dysprosium is no longer in short supply.
Helicopter gun ship style.
Permanent magnet motors - which Tesla and many others either use or are moving to - use gobs of neodymium and dysprosium. Typically 2-3 kg of neo magnets per motor.
Add to that a big hunk of neodymium in every wind turbine.
I heard there's a small african country that has more of the stuff than it can use.
And you can do almost anything with vibranium !
Or maybe it’s time to stop being racist and actually bring proper jobs housing food and sanitation to African countries if you want their raw materials.
It's the corruption and dictatorship that keeps people poor. Japan has few resources but is economically free with rule of law to protect investments from robbers and corruption, so people can respond to needs.
In places like this, you need kickback permission to do anything, and if you manage that, have to give a cut to the kleptocrats. Or it's a failed state and you just close up shop because of armed looting robbery. The kleptocrats may keep your competitors out of business, which is the opposite of a free market.
It's difficult and dangerous and low reward to start an enterprise there.
It has nothing to do with quality of government marshalling of a desirable resource. No resources needed to lift a society out of dirt-floor poverty.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
That works so well in the country with the lowest average IQ in the world.
I know it's not fashionable, but taking over that country and running it properly would help the unfortunates who have to live there.
Sadly our idiot governments in the west seem intent on replacing us with them. In 30 years we'll be lucky if WE have plumbing and electricity.
Abnormally low IQ is caused by childhood malnutrition. The generation growing up here will be fine.
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Raw materials are pretty marginal component of battery cost and there is material shortages only at current prices. Plenty more available at higher cost, which battery manufacturers can take without much impact to end price. Currently we are exploiting raw materials that are so cheap, that batteries are not even worth recycling. And bullocks on Neodynium, it's not rare at all, it's just that China has eaten everyone else out of market by using cheapest possible methods to mine it and saturating the market.
Lets make sure they compost too.. If they dont we can fine em!
Look at the board of directors. They are all Musk cronies and a relative.
None of them have ANY manufacturing knowledge or experience. Definitely nothing on autos. They are all web people and a VC that was part of the PayPal financing.
Musk is incompetent. He is losing billions every year making mistakes that bring smiles to automakers.
That SolarCity purchase that Musk made from his RELATIVES was unethical and questionable. Definitely some hanky-panky going on there.
Musk's compensation package was just idiotic but the board, made up of his cronies, approved it.
Tesla's capital structure is a house of cards. And if one day Musk can't convince stupid to keep dumping money into Tesla, it'll fall.
But Evangelical Tesla fans and Musk True Believers just ignore the mess and delude themselves with cherry picked numbers - ALL of them are bad - and lies (Tesla isn't losing money! They're building up!) as if factories, wages, insurance, utilities are all given to Tesla from the Easter Bunny.
Tesla fanboys are very stupid people. Oh! And the user Rei, I suspect is a publicist working for Musk.
Switching back? Ah, no, not really you can't. But if chinese neodymium gets expensive, then it again becomes profitable to mine it elsewhere in the world, so no problem really. Material costs are marginal for high tech products, the cost is in the making, not the material.
Seems to be OK given they have the highest GDP per capita in the Caribbean. Of course, recovery from the hurricane has been slow and terrible, but just like in the US that is more a State/territory issue - the Federal Government is limited in what it can do, and even then it must happen only with the express request and permission of the Governors.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
We should definitely step in and interfere. It's always worked out well to show them the way.
And every new natural gas or coal plant
What does Uranium, Nickel, Cobalt, and Radon spell? UNiCoRn!
What's the best formula for breakfast? Barium, Cobalt, and Nitrogen (BaCoN)
Perhaps not as cheaply as the Chinese process, but my understanding of what MolyCorp are doing suggests that you can indeed refine Neodymium without dumping sulfuric acid into rivers.
https://cen.acs.org/articles/9...
This isn't so much an issue with Neodymium but with the fact that we tend to buy materials from wherever they are cheapest and without a second thought for the externalized costs that went into producing them.
Radioactivity certainly is an issue if it winds up in wastewater, but if the radioactive elements can be isolated then I can't really see the issue with dumping them in the same environment. The processing is solvent based and it's not like we've "made more" radioactivity than was in the natural environment to start with..
You just described Wall Street.
But here is another thought, US interests end at US boarders.
Can't switch back to brush driven motors like have been used for hundreds of years and are still used in lots of places eh?
The only reason they use Neodymium brushless motors is because the neodymium is so cheap, the second it gets expensive they'll be back to standard motors in no time at all. The rise of brushless motors was directly tied to Chinese subsidies in the rare earth production that cratered the price of rare earth material and made the neodymium so cheap they couldn't justify using brushes that need to be replaced every few years.
Wikipedia doesn't seem to agree with you:
"Although neodymium is classed as a rare earth, it is a fairly common element, no rarer than cobalt, nickel, or copper, and is widely distributed in the Earth's crust."
There does seem to be illegal mining going on in China, but that's not a problem with the element, per se.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
The USA military is very expensive. It is cheaper to spend billions on battery r&d to develop a good enough battery. Heck, they are working on sodium ion battery, ie, won't need lithium either, for a good enough battery. Oil, on the other hand, has proven to resist decades of efforts to coming up with a cheap substitute.
I read here on slashdot a while ago that we are going away from Lithium Ion batteries because Braga and Goodenough's glass batteries are better.
Shame there's not one jot of scientific evidence to back this up - whereas there is masses of scientific evidence showing it's genetic
The other often used way is fractioned fluorid cristallization, which uses hydrofluoric acid, not sulphuric acid.
And Neodymium like all Lanthanoids can be found in Rare Earth deposits, together with other Rare Earths like Praseodymium or Samarium. Maybe you are confusing Neodymium (atomic number 60) with Promethium (atomic number 61), which indeed was discovered as a fission product of Uranium?
http://business.financialpost....
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
"Rare earth elements" are not rare. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
And particularly Neodymium is extremely common.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Right now, China is trying hard to control Cobalt by buying up mines all over (like they did with REMs) and spreading lots of lies.
BUT, The Phillipines, along with Canada and Australia, all have plenty of Cobalt to last another decade for all batteries. IOW, if they took over 100% of all cobalt mining, they would still have an easy 10+ years. So, even with China trying to control this, they really can not. What is HAPPENING is that China is manipulating the stock prices and only idiots will buy into this garbage.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Racist?
I'm struggling to understand your comment.
Can you please explain how it is the job of western countries to bring such things to African countries, if they can just do it themselves? I'm sure you're also aware of the many efforts that are already doing this and have been doing so for decades.
Or are you arguing that inhabitants of African countries lack the ability to do this themselves?
"Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
Most tend to be induction motors, because cooling is pretty easy when you're not space or weight constrained like in a car, and it can be cheaper and handle much higher temperatures (like you get with turbines).
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
What a beat-up!
There is such an abundance of Cobalt that most of what is mined goes to waste because it's not economic enough to recover it. Cobalt commonly occurs with Nickel and Copper deposits, but the concentration:price ratio doesn't make it viable to add extraction processes at the mine mills for it.
As soon as the price heads up and looks certain to stay elevated, the big boys like BHP will spend the money to add the extraction facilities to their mills.
Are you surprised China is investing for the future? Should they only be focused on next quarters numbers like a good little capitalist?
Wow that idea of measuring against other nations in poverty, just so wildly corrupt. Yeah we know, as far as US corporation waiting to ruthlessly exploit Puerto Rico are concerned, why don't the Pureto Ricans just fuck off and die already so we can steal the land for cents on the dollar. Yeah they refused free money and assistance or are you seriously comparing that ludicrous loans with inflated interest rates as assistance.
Rare earth mines are notoriously dirty and that is the reason for Africa not because there are not sources in the western world, Australia a good example but very expensive mines to run soundly and cleanly, can't compete with poisoning the general population in Africa with a cheap extremely dirty mine and processing facility.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Or are you arguing that inhabitants of African countries lack the ability to do this themselves?
Prove otherwise. The bell curve is not a theory.
Or put it another way: if you seriously think that malnutrition causes a 25-30 point IQ difference averaged across the population, then you've got to provide some serious scientific evidence to back that up.
Instead, you appear to have decided that experimenting on western civilisation is a good idea.
Because Trump is president what you post just isn't true and it's all his fault.
And if he did go above and beyond and fixed Puerto Rico then he'd be doing it because he wants to build a golf course for his Russian buddies and spread his Nazi agenda down there. He would also build a wall around Puerto Rico to keep Puerto Rican illegals from entering the US and taking US jobs.....
I make a great progressive idiot don't I?
Posted in every thread about batteries ever. Thanks for the insight!
Of course, the density of the material, location, and difficulty seperating it is where the cost comes in.
Like gold, for instance. Les than 0.003 parts per million in the earth's crust. Enough in the earth's core to plate the planet with a 13 foot blanket. It's not "rare", it's just hard to find in easily accesible form.
Killing off the "Western civilization" is a good idea.
Japan is even worse than America in that whole 'print your way to prosperity'. Their debt levels are astronomical and they government buys stocks and bonds to keep everything afloat (temporarily). You can import a lot of prosperity if other places are willing to take your paper, once that stops though *shrugs shoulders*.
When did China buy up all the REM mines?
Something else for Progressives to expend their emotional capital on.
Although neodymium is classed as a rare earth, it is a fairly common element, no rarer than cobalt, nickel, or copper, and is widely distributed in the Earth's crust
Thanks - didn't know that.
Still I don't think it's reasonable to say that the pollution caused in mongolia in refining neodymium is a function of "green energy". It's much more a function of the Chinese lacking sensible environmental regulations. If we wanted to start a useful trade war we could put tariffs on stuff that's made in ways that are needlessly damaging to the environment.
Let's start with you.
You do realize that Puerto Rico has done its own votes and so far has stayed a territory of the US, of its own accord? There is zero interest in keeping PR part of the US against their will. Mostly this is due to corruption and debt issues, and we really don't want to bail them out of repeated mistakes.
There is only one major exploitation going on, which is that all ships must be US flagged (Merchant Marine Act of 1920). Trump waved this.
... your link compares Chile with Latin America & Caribbean. WTF?
Fully agree! Unfortunately, many assign "external" costs for bad power use in China and such against power generation industries and consumers here. Reliable power is one of the best ways to increase the standard of living of any country.
And, unsurprisingly, when standards of living increase, people start to worry much more about their environment, their food, the work conditions of their friends and families, etc. I've spent about half of the last 20 years living in 2nd and 3rd world countries, working in factories, and I've seen the quality of conditions - environmental, social, and work - increase dramatically as incomes increase.
I would argue the best thing we could do would be to push loads of reliable, clean power - nuclear - and watch what happens. There's a reason the environment in Shanghai is so much better than in Xi'an or Chengdu - much more nuclear power is available, much less coal is used. And unfortunately, that "reliable" thing really makes renewables (other than hydro) an iffy proposition. A few days of still air, or of low sunlight, and your reliability goes out the window. It's why countries that tend to have the highest share of renewables for electricity also tend to have the highest prices for electricity. You have to provide essentially 100% backup for when the renewables cannot provide what you need. So you "double pay" for generation sources. Go straight to nuclear and call it done, then spend the excess cash on cleaning up water, improved sanitation, etc.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
A few days of still air over an area as large as China? Same with sunlight?
I think they have bigger problems, maybe alien invaders put a dome over their whole country.
Japan is even worse than America in that whole 'print your way to prosperity'. Their debt levels are astronomical and they government buys stocks and bonds to keep everything afloat (temporarily). You can import a lot of prosperity if other places are willing to take your paper, once that stops though *shrugs shoulders*.
How does Japan's astronomically high savings rate figure into that?
Can't switch back to brush driven motors like have been used for hundreds of years and are still used in lots of places eh?
There is no need for that. With electronic commutation being relatively cheap and already used for permanent magnet motors, brushless reluctance and induction motors are a better choice.
Well, it's not uncommon to have clouds over a large (20%) chunk of the country. Or still air over just as much. I guess you can overbuild quite a bit everywhere, and upsize all the long-distance power lines... China is planning to double it's nuclear power capacity in the next 2 years. In 2017, China did about 246 TWh of nuclear power generation, more than solar and wind combined.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
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Let me introduce you to WindBourne. He thinks China is focusing on coal and you think it's nuclear.
You can both argue with each other to see who is right.
Everyone else can laugh at you both, safe in the knowledge China is actually building solar and wind.
It's a side effect. They know things are going to get worse so they don't spend now but save instead, knowing the crunch is coming. Which perversely means the crunch will come quicker and bigger when it inevitably does come.
They are printing massive amounts of Yen just to tread water at the moment, Trump's trade shenanigans are just pushing up the Yen higher, making their problems worse. You may recall they had negative interest rates to try and force people to spend, and the Yen to fall. But it still wasn't enough. It won't end well for them.