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Stonehenge Builders Used Pythagoras' Theorem 2,000 Years Before He Was Born (techtimes.com)

According to a new book entitled "Megalith," which was released on June 21 to coincide with summer solstice, ancient humans who designed Stonehenge followed Pythagoras' theorem 2,000 years before his birth, around 2500 B.C. The theorem states that the square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the other two squares on the triangle. TechTimes reports: [The theorem] was developed by ancient Greek mathematician Pythagoras, who was born in 570 B.C. However, Stonehenge was assembled 2,000 years before his birth, around 2500 B.C. This theory suggests that these ancient humans were smarter than what people give them credit for. In order to use Pythagoras' theorem, they had to be really skilled at geometry.

"We think these people didn't have scientific minds but first and foremost they were astronomers and cosmologists," John Matineau, the editor of the book, told the Telegraph. "They were studying long and difficult to understand cycles and they knew about these when they started planning sites like Stonehenge."

23 of 183 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Down with Pythagoras! by sconeu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That article is possibly the stupidest thing I have ever read in my life.

    What would Benjamin Franklin have to say about the absurdity that Alaska, with less than a million inhabitants, has the same Senate power as California, a state with over 38 million people

    He'd say, "Good". That's EXACTLY what the Senate was designed for... so that small states would be on an equal footing with the large states.

    --
    General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  2. Big deal. by sconeu · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm sure that many early cultures were aware of the a^2 +b^2 = c^2 relationship.

    What gives Pythagoras the credit is that he proved it.

    --
    General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    1. Re:Big deal. by Angry+Toad · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you're making a right triangle of any kind it follows Pythagoras by default - it wouldn't be a triangle otherwise. I wish they had given some kind of example of what indication there was of an understanding of the math involved.

    2. Re:Big deal. by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What gives Pythagoras the credit is that he proved it.

      Prove it!

  3. Proof? Article contains no additional info. by Fly+Swatter · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Did they find ancient carvings that included or alluded to the math involved? Perhaps some rectangular markings that were used for alignment? Someone buy the book and tell us the answer.

    1. Re:Proof? Article contains no additional info. by Fly+Swatter · · Score: 4, Informative

      Erm ignore that, it seems the second link in the summary has an actual article with real content. The first link starts out with 'what is stonehenge"...

  4. Re:Bullshit. by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 4, Funny

    But it SAYS 18 inches right on the napkin!

  5. Plimpton 322 by LarryRiedel · · Score: 3, Informative

    Pythagorean triple had been in use for a while back in 1800BC

  6. Right angled triangle != Pythagoras Theorem. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 5, Informative
    The link sheds no light. But lots of ancient cultures knew right angled triangles. That does not mean they knew Pythagoras theorem as we know it today.

    I know an ancient Tamil formula that seems to be Pythagoras theorem at the first glance. "Make eight parts of the running length, and discard one part, add to it, half of the altitude. What you get is the hypotenuse". Instantly one notes, there is no quadratic term. It is a linear formula, so it is not a general Pythagoras theorem. It boils down to "when two sides of a right angled triangle is 4 and 3, the hypotenuse is 5".

    Nothing unusual. All they needed was an easy way to construct the right angle. That is all. The simplest way is the make a lasso with a rope ten units long, and mark off 3 feet and 4 feet, you can form a right angled triangle. If you make the rope hundreds of feet long, the angle will be accurate enough for the ancient construction techniques.

    Egyptians had been using the 3-4-5 right angled triangles to demarcate land holdings after Nile floodings 1500 years before Pythagoras.

    For aligning ancient temples, pyramids and other structures with East/West directions, the technique was ridiculously simple. Plant a pole, and mark the tip's shadow location at sunrise on equinox day and again the location at sunset. Line joining these two points is East-West. Use the 3-4-5 triangle from a 10 unit long loop of a rope and mark off North and South. Use plumb bob for vertical. You have a clean three axes Cartesian coordinate axes marked on the ground.

    Dont get me wrong. I am amazed they can identify the equinox and solstice days, that they can predict eclipses, form calendars, They were as intelligent and smart as any modern human being. 5000 years is, but a blink of an eye, in evolutionary time scale. But let us also note that what we mean by Pythogoras theorem today is vastly different what they were using back then.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Right angled triangle != Pythagoras Theorem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The link sheds no light. But lots of ancient cultures knew right angled triangles. That does not mean they knew Pythagoras theorem as we know it today.

      I know an ancient Tamil formula that seems to be Pythagoras theorem at the first glance. "Make eight parts of the running length, and discard one part, add to it, half of the altitude. What you get is the hypotenuse". Instantly one notes, there is no quadratic term. It is a linear formula, so it is not a general Pythagoras theorem. It boils down to "when two sides of a right angled triangle is 4 and 3, the hypotenuse is 5".

      Nothing unusual. All they needed was an easy way to construct the right angle. That is all. The simplest way is the make a lasso with a rope ten units long, and mark off 3 feet and 4 feet, you can form a right angled triangle. If you make the rope hundreds of feet long, the angle will be accurate enough for the ancient construction techniques.

      Egyptians had been using the 3-4-5 right angled triangles to demarcate land holdings after Nile floodings 1500 years before Pythagoras.

      For aligning ancient temples, pyramids and other structures with East/West directions, the technique was ridiculously simple. Plant a pole, and mark the tip's shadow location at sunrise on equinox day and again the location at sunset. Line joining these two points is East-West. Use the 3-4-5 triangle from a 10 unit long loop of a rope and mark off North and South. Use plumb bob for vertical. You have a clean three axes Cartesian coordinate axes marked on the ground.

      Dont get me wrong. I am amazed they can identify the equinox and solstice days, that they can predict eclipses, form calendars, They were as intelligent and smart as any modern human being. 5000 years is, but a blink of an eye, in evolutionary time scale. But let us also note that what we mean by Pythogoras theorem today is vastly different what they were using back then.

      Then there is the table of Pythagorean Triples in Plimpton 322 from 1800 BC. And also Babylonian math exercises on other tablets that give hypotenuse and side of a right triangle and ask for the third side, and solve using the Pythagorean Theorem. There are few who doubt that the Babylonians knew the Pythagorean Theorem.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plimpton_322

    2. Re:Right angled triangle != Pythagoras Theorem. by MrKaos · · Score: 2

      For aligning ancient temples, pyramids and other structures with East/West directions, the technique was ridiculously simple. Plant a pole, and mark the tip's shadow location at sunrise on equinox day and again the location at sunset.

      No, just no.

      The pyramids are aligned to within 1 degree of true north. Modern civilisation is only just approaching that level of accuracy with GPS *today*.

      Aside for that the great pyramid is a *eight* sided pyramid and keeping enough tension on rope to line that up is pretty much impossible. It is packed with information.

      To give you some idea, pi is represented *1, *10, *100 and *1000 in this structure. It contains phi, the euler constant and more. The diagonal long edge is the length of seconds in a day in feet, it's four edges define the length of a year in cubits accurate to five decimal places. The ratios of a foot, cubit and metre are represented in ratios, the base times the diagonal edge defines the equatorial circumference.

      I could go on, and on and on, however it is known that Pythagoras studied the pyramids so it is quite clear they are a textbook, not a tomb. More than likely that Stonehenge was based on what was learned in the pyramids.

      If you want a citation, look at the dimensions of the pyramids, I'd recommend the JH Cole study.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  7. The argument seems to be... by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Stonehenge contains right triangles; the right triangles obey the Pythagorean theorem; therefore whoever built Stonehenge must have known the Pythagorean theorem.

    But ALL right triangles obey the Pythagorean theorem (which is the whole point of the theorem), so this would be true whether the people who built them knew about the theorem or not.

    1. Re:The argument seems to be... by Pseudonym · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not quite.

      A "Pythagorean triangle" is a right-angled triangle where the sides all have integer length. This guy claims to have found some of those, in particular there's a rectangle of stones that mark important sunrise/sunset events and moonrise/moonset events which, when you cut it in half, is Pythagorean.

      Which seems odd to me. If the stones are determined by the calendar events, that's the reason why they have those proportions, not Pythagoras' theorem. The builders may have discovered this integer ratio relationship and found it interesting, but I doubt it's the other way around.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    2. Re:The argument seems to be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "A "Pythagorean triangle" is a right-angled triangle where the sides all have integer length. "

      Is that a school thing, a math thing, or a new math thing?

      Surely if you use the right unit of measure any triangle can have integer length.

    3. Re:The argument seems to be... by mcswell · · Score: 2

      I don't see that in the Tech Times article; the claim there is that the builders of Stonehenge knew the Pythagorean *theorem* (which of course doesn't require integer sides). It does claim that Pythagorean *triangles* will be found elsewhere in Britain, but leaves implicit any connection between Pythagorean triangles and the Pythagorean theorem.

      The Telegraph article has a picture of Stonehenge labeled "A bird's eye view of Stonehenge showing the rectangle and Pythagorean triangles", with 56 postholes in the outer circle, and a Pythagorean triangle laid out on 3 of those holes. With 56 holes (almost one every 6 degrees), you could lay out almost any triangle you want, as long as your measurements weren't real precise. The sides of this triangle are alleged to point in certain directions (midwinter moonset--what date is midwinter? and "major standstill"), sunset on two dates (labeled "sunset Beltane and Lammas", and in the opposite direction, "sunrise Samhain and Imbolc"), and midsummer sunrise (again, which date is midsummer? and another "major standstill"). In short, it sounds to me very much like the Bible Code; given enough points, you can find anything you want: multiple "special" days in the year, and then sunrise, sunset, even moonrise and moonset.

      Also, the moon doesn't rise and set in exactly the same direction on any particular date of the year, nor even on the same lunar phases at nearly the same time of the year. If it did, eclipses would occur at the same time every year. For example, 28 June of this year is a full moon; from Washington DC, the Moon rises at a declination of 117 degrees. On 9 July of last year, also a full moon, it rose at a declination of 114 degrees; and on 5 July 2001, the full moon rose at a declination of 121 degrees. That's a variation of 7 degrees, slightly more than the distance between two of those postholes as viewed from the center of the circle. So it's not clear how a unique posthole was chosen for the midwinter moonset. (And if you have a particular date for moonset, rather than the closest full moon to some date, it's even worse: moonrise/ moonset varies by 61 degrees at the latitude of Washington DC. In which case you have a choice of ten or so postholes.)

      I got the moon declinations and phases from https://www.timeanddate.com/mo.... It's a nice calculator, much better than having a Stonehenge in your back yard.

  8. is this new? by e**(i+pi)-1 · · Score: 5, Informative

    The new book is by Hugh Newman and Robin Heath. Heath is a teacher of astrology. There is a difference between using the Pythagoras theorem in examples or realizing that there is a theorem. This difference is often confused. The Babylonians also used the theorem in examples. I have not read the book, nor seen any new evidence in the articles about the appearance of the book. There is a book already out since 2013 Duncan Lunan called Megalith. Lunan already mentioned the use of Pythagoras in his book. I would like to see what is the new evidence coming forward in the new book.

  9. Hopefully by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 3, Funny

    Pythagoras sued them all later on.

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  10. Re:Problem: Pythagoras was not the first to prove. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Informative

    I don't see any proof of the theorem in there. What is displayed on that page is a special case. Just like Fermat's last theorem was proven in 1995 but that it holds true for the special case of n=4 was proven already by Fermat.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  11. Igloo analogy by eric31415927 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The base of an igloo, which is essentially a circle, follows the formula Circumference = pi * Diameter.
    After building several hundred igloos, I am sure an Inuit builder would have empirical knowledge that it takes roughly three times as many steps to go around a circle than it takes to walk the diameter. In this way, the Inuit builder would have a very practical understanding of pi without possibly ever defining pi.

    Children may use 3-4-5 triangles in wood shop before ever learning about Pythagoras's Theorem.
    Some woodworkers have a very practical understanding of specific right triangles without really thinking the maths through.

    I would put the Stonehenge builders in the same lot. Lots of empirical knowledge, but maybe less so on the modern-day mathematical definitions.

    1. Re:Igloo analogy by ledow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Quite.

      Maths is not an inherently intellectual-only exercise. It can be determined to within a human margin of error quite easily by empirical evidence.

      The same claim goes to the pyramid-builders. But the desert is littered with collapsed and bad pyramids that weren't right or were changed mid-construction. And those are just the ones that got left rather than "Rip it up, it's wrong, that's a billion tons of stone, we can re-use it"...

      Though I don't doubt these people were not just Neanderthals bashing clubs against their head, they didn't formalise mathematics in this fashion. Pythagoras did, which is why we know his name and call him a mathematician.

      You have to recognise that Stonehenge proper was 3000-2000 BC. Mesolithic posts on the site align to a lunar calendar thousands of years before that.

      For thousands of years, people maintained a site with significance to their astronomical observations. Yes, for religious purposes, but they weren't idiots. Likely these people had intelligence not vastly different from our own, but they lacked a more formal education process. The ability to sit in a classroom for 18-20 years and be taught every day is the only thing that's changed. These people weren't stupid, just not formally educated. Plenty of people even today operate on the exact same principle!

      How many adults, now, today, could tell you what Pythagoras' Theorem was, state it, understand it, apply it and see it's application to places like Stonehenge? It's by far not everyone.

      How many adults, now, today, are going to build something that's still standing in thousands of years, and how intelligent (collectively) would everyone who worked on it have to be to do that?

      I find it quite insulting that people think even Stone Age man was some thick-headed caveman. And that EVERY Stone Age person was that thick.

      Hilariously, I watched a series on TV a few years ago where a group of people tried to live in an isolated area with no modern facilities and they failed MISERABLY. Literally, they ate through their initial stock of food, they couldn't build a shelter, meat was left to go rotten for days with no preparation and they were SURPRISED by that, they trekked miles to get water and came back with almost nothing, not even food gathered along the way, and when snow hit, they were all evacuated to safety because they didn't bother to make any preparations.

      Just being "modern man" doesn't make us collectively intelligent. There are outliers whose knowledge benefits us all, while half of people are of "below average" intelligence (by definition - if you don't understand that, nor do half the population!). That a few thousand years ago, not long enough to have biologically changed us very much at all except under extreme evolutionary pressure, there were people capable of taking a reasonable guess at the length of a side of a basic engineering project? Yeah? And? So what?

      We are doing these people a disservice. It's probably why a lot of people just assume that dinosaurs and cavemen lived together.

      These people probably didn't even have TIME to sit around and think, let alone formerly school, but it doesn't mean they were stupid. They could probably only burn wood, maybe a primitive oil for light (outside of full moons) - hell we don't know what they might have been doing of an evening, they may be much cleverer than we thought. But likely the night was a loss and most of the day was used for more essential tasks like surviving and gathering food and making weapons.

      You're not telling me that you're surprised a Bear Grylls existed back then who had mastered his art after generations and had time to sit and think, even if his village mates were still worshipping trees?

      Pick a modern human couple at random, put them back in that environment, and we'd likely not be able to replicate anything of Mesolithic mathematics, cosmology, survival skills, etc. for dozens of generations (if they even live that long).

      Outside of w

  12. Re:Bullshit. by Sique · · Score: 4, Interesting
    What they actually did was using the 13-knots-cord. If you have a cord and make 13 nodes each in the same distance to the neighboring ones, and then you put the 13th and the first together, you get a loop of 12 equal parts of cord. Then you can use this to make the famous 3-4-5 triangle -- bang! right angle.

    No calculations necessary. Pure geometry with simple means.

    --
    .sig: Sique *sigh*
  13. Staring at clouds too long by DrXym · · Score: 2
    I could scatter a bunch of coins on the ground and an observer could infer all kinds of relationships based on the distance between the coins. The observer might, after a while, go wildly overboard and start proclaiming all this was by design. They might even start fudging and massaging the facts to fit this hypothesis - maybe particular coins follow a pattern of sorts but others don't, so let's discard those coins and focus on the ones that do etc.

    I really don't see this being far removed from what is being suggested by the article, that standing stones in the British Isles are positioned in a way which is pythagorean. There are hundreds of standing stone circles all over the isles. It would not be hard to cherry pick some of them and shoehorn the hypothesis into. It's the sort of pseudo archeological garbage that Graham Hancock has been doing for years.

  14. Re: Down with Pythagoras! by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2

    You have unknown enemies that come from CA and NY? And they want to destroy your local Texas health care system? How, pray tell? By removing their ability to deny care and let people die? Do you have health insurance, because if you do you don't really have any complaints. If not, do you expect health care? The reason health insurance costs keep rising is because the health insurance industry needs ever increasing profits to make shareholders happy, and of course, bonuses. There isn't enough time to detail everything else that's wrong with the US health care industry, but it's definitely not healthy.

    --
    The cesspool just got a check and balance.