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Tesla To Close a Dozen Solar Facilities In 9 States (cnbc.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from CNBC: Electric car maker Tesla's move last week to cut 9 percent of its workforce will sharply downsize the residential solar business it bought two years ago in a controversial $2.6 billion deal, according to three internal company documents and seven current and former Tesla solar employees. The latest cuts to the division that was once SolarCity -- a sales and installation company founded by two cousins of Tesla CEO Elon Musk -- include closing about a dozen installation facilities, according to internal company documents, and ending a retail partnership with Home Depot that the current and former employees said generated about half of its sales. About 60 installation facilities remain open, according to an internal company list reviewed by Reuters. An internal company email named 14 facilities slated for closure, but the other list included only 13 of those locations.
I've seen short sellers jumping on this, claiming Tesla's energy division is failing, claiming that this is confirmation that the Solar City buyout was a bailout for Elon's cousins.
What I see here is Tesla restructuring to be more efficient and consistent.
Tesla is a company that grew very quickly and incorporated into itself a few smaller companies, the largest of which is Solar City.
As a result of that past there are a lot of roles that grew out of a structure that fit a much smaller company that don't make sense now, roles that are redundant between Tesla and SC, etc.
As far as I understand, SC was more of a distributed solar power company that dealt with all aspects of installation, maintenance, financing, etc.
Tesla's residential energy division is transitioning more towards having solar and battery products being something the consumer or the house builder buys directly as product.
So they sold off the maintenance/upkeep contracts to other solar companies and they're bringing all their sales people inhouse, into the same stores they display and sell their cars in.
Tesla's battery storage division is growing significantly.
And sure, like the with the Model 3 production, their new solar tile/panel factory might be taking longer than expected to ramp up, but I wouldn't take that as failure by any stretch, I often see analysts looking at last year's number, comparing it to this year's number and deciding that because it's lower or higher it is worse, without even considering it in the actual context of how the company is run.
Which isn't remotely what happened here. A dozen solar install locations are not "20% of their business operations".
Tesla's solar division (formerly SolarCity) is transitioning from being a (low margin) installer of other people's solar panels into a solar roofing product manufacturer.
I was watching this thing on TV about some guy named Hitler. Someone should stop him!
We'll see in a few years how Tesla does. But California's rules should help Tesla's solar panel and battery business.
The New York Times says California will require that all new homes have solar power, starting in 2020.
Also, a rate change that takes effect in 2019
will charge California customers based on the time of day they use electricity. So homeowners with energy-efficiency features — a battery in particular, allowing energy to be stored for when it is most efficiently used — will avoid higher costs.
"Losing money left, right and centre doesn't mean you're not profitable."
Perhaps not, but there is often a strong correlation between losses and a lack of profitability. Plus which, it's a bit hard to classify closing facilities and firing workers as capital expenditure.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
Solar City acquired its debt load working on the Solar City Gigafactory (Gigafactory 2). It had, and has under Tesla, continually been transitioning from its old, low margin business model to this.
If you have an issue with the facts, explain them, but these are the facts. You don't build the largest solar plant in the US with pocket change.
I was watching this thing on TV about some guy named Hitler. Someone should stop him!
Seriously rich folks don't pay any income taxes . .
It never ceases to amaze me how people believe what they want to believe. I guess you don't know any rich people, or have never looked at where most income tax revenues come from.
In one way SolarCity acquisition was a smart move. It gives Musk another excuse for losing money for a few more years, while promising 'its coming' to those with blind trust. But many shareholders are losing trust, particularly those who were not happy with that acquisition to begin with.
They only product SolarCity has that could eventually yield high margins is the solar roof, yet that is way to expensive for the common man, is way behind schedule on market availability, and will likely always cost significantly more than traditional panels. It is likely the first sales will be at a loss as well
Grid scale storage market might grow, but it is quite small right now and also low margin. We don't even know if Tesla broke even on those sales so far, they are quite quiet about it, which tells me they are probably booked as loss leaders. I may be wrong, but if they were making money Musk would be talking it up.
Clickbait headline: "TESLA CLOSING A DOZEN FACILITIES!!!11!!1!"
Meanwhile, in reality: "Tesla closes 13/14 out of 75 solar panel installation sites."
No wonder Elon Musk wants to get into the journalism accountability business, if he has to deal with nonsense like this all the time.
The bigger news is a whistleblower is about to blow off the lid of one of the biggest scams of the decade. Gross margins and production numbers were overstated. Waste is rampant. Faulty batteries were installed in their $80,000+ cars in order to push production numbers up. Elon is going nuts trying to blame it on "shorts". It is very entertaining to see it implode. Meanwhile, Nissan (and others) are making a $30k EV that is available right now, no reservation required. When will Tesla make an affordable car available? Never.
Take out a student loan!
Musk made almost his only real profit while operating PayPal, whichh is a 'useful' entity but also a far shadier version of 'banking' than most banksters engage in.
Musk peddles hopes and dreams. He markets hype to believers in a dystopian future; his hype provides the illusion of a way out of the percieved dismal fate.
I mean, damnit, it is not that difficult to see the obvious.
That is why tech guys are such big Musk fans: they all believe that technology will solve all of our problems, and Musk has latched onto that as well. It is nonsensical of course. His companies are producing products for the 1% while grabbing taxpayer money from everyone else. Fortunately for Musk the overlap between tech guys and the 1% is pretty big, so you have delusional people like Rei and Bruce who can see no wrong. If they really believed in delivering affordable EVs to the masses they would invest in one of the car manufacturers who are actually doing it, rather than Tesla which makes playthings for the rich.
In Musk-world, any investor who is dissatisfied is a 'short seller.'
Just one component of the illusion being spun.
You don't "rely" on it. You use it as a bullet point.
Many good business ideas fail in the sales and marketing process. And partnering with Home Depot appears to be a weak spot. Can't make any money there and can't sell on your own (possibly as a condition of the HD sales channel). HD caters to crazy little old ladies who insist on buying a flower at a hardware store. Or DIYers who don't notice when they exchange their Blum cabinet hardware line for cheap Chinese knockoffs.
Have gnu, will travel.
https://www.technologyreview.c...
Yeah, it MAY be solved and then again. H2 solves it now and for a long time. yes, fuel cells use platinum... About as much as is used in a catalytic convertor.
so we stop making catalytic convertors and start making fuel cells. net zero change
And please keep in mind, batteries are NOT necessarily required to have an EV.
The Tesla drags a 1400 pound battery pack... Fuel Cells weight a whole lot less
While not a Musk fanboy this direct linking of PayPal with him is a bit strong. Most scummy activities happened after he (and the others) were bought out by ebay, in fact I can't remember anything dirty before that.
Dried up? Gee that is too bad. My neighbor has a Solar City installation, the thing is a reflective eyesore. Certain time of year the reflection off the taxpayer funded solar panels glare so bad you can't even look in the direction of their house. They installed half the solar panels facing NORTH, and these are the problem.
Cutting their relationship with Home Depot, which "generated about half of its sales" is a 50% cut in revenue, though... Combining the two, it's probably closer to a 60% retrenchment of position in the market.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
So what you're saying is they made a gross profit on selling product but are losing it on SG&A?
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Huh... The top 1% make 20% of all income but pay 40% of all income taxes. Somehow I think they ARE paying income tax. At least, that's what the IRS says...
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
An extension cord that reaches as far as a Tesla can range on a charge would weigh a hell of a lot more
Beta is bad enough to make me go edit settings like this sig that haven't been touched since I joined
I REALLY wish I could mod this one up! LOL
He gets a lot of hype for things that don't have substance.
But he also has some real accomplishments, particularly with SpaceX.
Which isn't remotely what happened here. A dozen solar install locations are not "20% of their business operations".
Tesla's solar division (formerly SolarCity) is transitioning from being a (low margin) installer of other people's solar panels into a solar roofing product manufacturer.
In addition, if the US tariff war continues for any length of time, the cost of solar panels from outside of the US will eat into the low profit margin of the home retail solar market. Reorganizing and repositioning the retail solar division makes smart business sense.
You can make hydrogen gas by electrolysis using electricity.
But I agree that fuel cells are not a practical option at the moment, but then neither were electric cars until quite recently.
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
You really don't have a clue, do you?
The Solar Roof is aimed squarely at new construction, where it won't be expensive, especially when Tesla's warranty is included in the calculations. CA just mandated solar on new houses, and Tesla Solar is uniquely positioned to satisfy the demand produced by this new mandate.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Yes, and similar quantities of platinum are used in catalytic converters now.
No ICE engine, no catalytic converters. Net zero change.
Check out industrial electrolyzers on Alibaba (22 liters/hour with 6Kw input power at 7 bar) and solutions currently being deployed in Europe and Asia.
You're correct, centralized hydrogen production and distribution has some issues ( metals exposed to hydrogen over time become brittle... coat with polymers? ).
Decentralized production using PV and wind is MUCH more practical and clean.
So what, is this whistler blower your mother?
I'm calling bullshit. The odds are incredibly against you having that kind of insider information and if you did you could find much better things to do with it then waiting for a slashdot article about a Musk business so you could bring it up in an internet forum.
The odds are vastly more likely that, like a child, you are making this up because you either want it to be true or for attention.
I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
Here, allow me to do your homework for you:
Fuel cells consume hydrogen gas, typically at about 3300 PSI aka 7 BAR, reacting that in the presence of a catalyst with oxygen to generate electricity and water vapor. To get an idea of what that means, SCUBA takes come in two kinds, high and low. SCUBA high is 2200 PSI.
The typical fuel cell to produce the energy stored in that 1400 pound battery pack is about 100 pounds, with the carbon fiber reinforced polymer tanks to hold the hydrogen gas, about 300 pounds.
Older, dirtier processes of obtaining hydrogen involved using energy intensive processes to extract hydrogen from hydrocarbons are not really cost effective except for collection as an industrial gas (hydrogen is one of the most commonly used, but expensive industrial gases).
An even older method passes a DC current through water, releasing hydrogen and oxygen. Without excess renewable energy, this method is not cost effective.
The hydrogen is collected ( usually simply compressed, sometimes liquefied by chilling and compressing ) and may then be transported in non-reactive vessels and pipelines (existing technology).
Welcome to the 21st century.
I know half a dozen people who got their accounts blocked by Pay Pal, years, if not a decade, before eBay bought them.
Half of them never got the money back. The other needed to file law suits to get it. And for a few it was really a bad problem, traveling the world with an pay pal credit card and getting the account blocked because pay pal thought: it is not normal that a person uses the card over months in various different countries. How would you feel if you travel with the trans siberia express from Germany via Poland via Russia via Mongolia to China and when you are in Myanmar your credit card is not useable for half a year and that is your only way to pay during your traveling and all your money is on the pay pal account?
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Solar roof is still very expensive with new construction, particularly compared to panels which are not only cheaper to start with, are also easier and cheaper to replace in the future, and you are not stuck beholden to one manufacturer for the life of the house. People will buy panels at low margin commodity prices. A few rich folks will buy roofs.
And bumble bees can't possibly fly.
Try again. 300 mile range. Look at reality... Existing vehicles.
Wikipedia articles of unknown provenance that fail even think about what exists? Please.
Dupes like you will continue to fund and promote fraud while wishing for Unicorns and puppies.
Next you'll say the earth is flat.
It makes sense to focus your business on manufacturing your domestic products.
I was watching this thing on TV about some guy named Hitler. Someone should stop him!
Minus the cocaine.
The idiots who repeat that "bumblebees" misnomer are usually the same idiots who believe that Bill Gates really thought computers would never have more than 640k RAM. You think that you're providing a witty rejoinder to his comment when, in fact, you're just further demonstrating your own ignorance.
It's true; the Mirai - which weighs 800lbs less than a Tesla Model S, and delivers 1/5th the horsepower - gets about the same range. It's still a pretty shit vehicle which costs more to operate and is far less efficient than a battery electric. The only advantage it could provide would be faster refueling if the hydrogen infrastructure ever gets rolled out; however at the moment it's even more inconvenient to refuel than a battery electric.
Only in the US is there a lack and even here the infrastructure is going in:
https://www.triplepundit.com/2...
According the rollout at Nikola, those stations will be built and maintained by Ryder and available to all hydrogen vehicles.
Because of the federal regulation of hydrogen dispensers, there won't be any nonsense of this dispenser only works with this type of vehicle.
Yes, you have to pay... But believe it or not, with a Tesla too, you just paid up front. With the newer Teslas, the "all free" model has been withdrawn.
With every other BEV, you still have to pay... And wait while it charges.
Keep in mind, these are ALL EVs you just don't have to wait to drive with some.
Only in the US is there a lack
This is an incredibly stupid thing to say. There are essentially zero countries which have well developed hydrogen vehicle infrastructure. While some countries are better than others, there are certainly far more countries where hydrogen fuel for vehicles is essentially nonexistent than there are countries where it's commonly available.
Those particular 8 words are pretty much the worst thing you could have said if you actually want to be taken seriously on the subject.
According the rollout at Nikola, those stations will be built and maintained by Ryder and available to all hydrogen vehicles.
Great, those 800 stations are a nice start, assuming they actually get built. They only need to add another 113,733 gas stations and then we can fully get rid of ICE vehicles. Meanwhile the number of BEV charging stations can be a fraction of that due to the fact that a significant percentage of the population can charge them at home.
Yes, you have to pay... But believe it or not, with a Tesla too, you just paid up front. With the newer Teslas, the "all free" model has been withdrawn.
This is a red herring. Nobody has ever argued that "free refueling" is a benefit of BEV, so you bringing it up here makes zero sense. The actual argument is that you pay more for hydrogen because it's far less efficient, ergo more expensive.
All of that on top of the fact that the Myrai is a shit car which is badly underpowered compared to a Tesla. Call me back when someone develops a comparable hydrogen vehicle so we can actually look at efficiency/range/price/etc when comparing two evenly matched cars.
An extension cord that reaches as far as a Tesla can range on a charge would weigh a hell of a lot more
One way to avoid that problem would be to make the extension cord static and allow multiple cars to share it.
Note that the cars could still contain batteries if desired, to allow for "off-grid" driving, but the batteries could be much smaller if the car is able to recharge while it is driving.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
But I agree that fuel cells are not a practical option at the moment, but then neither were electric cars until quite recently.
Fuel cells can and maybe will be developed to the point of practicality, but at the rate things are going it will be too little, too late. By the time fuel cells are cheap enough for mass production AND a significant hydrogen-generation-and-distribution infrastructure is built out, battery-powered cars will be so cheap, high-performing, and ubiquitous that nobody will be interested in buying a fuel-cell-based car that offers no competitive advantages.
Selling fuel-cell cars in the 2020's will be like selling high-definition VHS tapes in the 2010's -- you could certainly do it, but the world has already moved on to something better.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
You can't compare Solar roof to panels. You have to compare Solar roof to the cost of panels plus the cost of the roof itself.
Yes, as a retrofit, Solar roof will be very expensive, but that's not the target market.
People buy houses with roofs that look nice but cost more. Those people won't want an ugly house with a cheap roof and some cheap panels slung on top, which may be as or almost as expensive as a very nice looking roof that will last the life of the house.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
I got his sarcasm; the issue here is that you're as ignorant as he is, so both of you believe the "Hurr durr scientists thought bumblebees couldn't fly" nonsense. Which is why you completely missed my point.
You can't compare Solar roof to panels.
Yes you can. And if you are a consumer you have those choices. That is what you do with choices, you compare them. Of course you must consider roof costs, but as of now Tesla roof is way more expensive than traditional roof and solar panels, and as I said you are stuck one you install Tesla roof.
In 2015, 141.2 million taxpayers reported earning $10.14 trillion in adjusted gross income and paid $1.45 trillion in individual income taxes.
Oh the poor people having to pay a whole 14% tax. How do they still manage to put food on the table?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Well, I can compare oranges and apples. It doesn't make the comparison valid, though.
Your argument is equivalent to arguing that a sidecar for a motorcycle is cheaper than a new BMW car. It's true, but irrelevant.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
No, It seems you just can't handle comparisons of things that aren't exactly the same.
you are correct. I was reading from the wrong set of notes
Yep, and also from my link, the bottom 50% pay an average of 3.6% income tax rate. We have a HIGHLY progressive tax structure in the US, and the rich pay overwhelmingly the lion's share of taxes (include in capital gains and social security - which everyone in the 10% maxes out - and you'd find about half the Federal receipts come from those rich folks). Yet somehow - it's not enough?
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Well you can't balance your budget, so clearly it's not enough.
And the rich pay more capital gains taxes than the poor....Why do you think that might be...