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eBay and Amazon Delist Faulty Carbon Monoxide Alarms (theguardian.com)

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the up-in-smoke dept.

An anonymous reader quotes the Guardian: Dozens of potentially deadly carbon monoxide alarms have been removed from sale by Amazon and eBay after a Which? investigation found some of them would not have protected their buyers. The consumer group tested four alarms that were on sale on both sites -- including an Amazon bestseller -- and found that they consistently failed to sound when the gas was present.... It said one of the alarms -- the Topolek GEHS007AW CO alarm (£14.99) -- was listed as a bestseller on Amazon. It failed to detect the gas in more than 80% of tests. Three other unbranded alarms that were made in China and sold through sellers on Amazon and eBay for under £10 also repeatedly failed to sound when there was carbon monoxide present... Which? said all four claimed to meet the British safety standard for detecting carbon monoxide.
Both Amazon and eBay have now removed the alarms -- as well as "another 50 lookalike alarms."

35 of 78 comments (clear)

  1. A quality CO sensor costs about $10..15 by gweihir · · Score: 3, Informative

    Hence when the whole device costs in that range, you can be sure an ElCheapo $1 sensor was used. (Prices from Ebay, so YMMV.) Also, gas-flow is non-trivial, you cannot just put the sensor into a case, put some holes in that case and hope for the best. And actual testing the device is not so cheap or easy too. I expect these fails were "blind designs" were the "engineer" just read the datasheet and build the device without ever doing any real and costly testing.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    1. Re:A quality CO sensor costs about $10..15 by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      in that range

      You just gave a range that is larger than the cost of manufacturer of the rest of the device. Is your $15 detector crap, or does it have a quality $10 sensor with $5 of cheap electronics around it? In the case of these devices, the sensor IS the cost of the device. The rest of it is borderline free.

      Also testing for a single device isn't cheap or easy because you need calibration and test equipment. That ads almost nothing to the cost when you spread it over 1000 sales on multiple different units.

      To be clear you're probably right that this was some gungho idiot making some blind design and shipping it on the cheap, but you can not universally tell that from the price.

    2. Re:A quality CO sensor costs about $10..15 by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hence when the whole device costs in that range, you can be sure an ElCheapo $1 sensor was used. (Prices from Ebay, so YMMV.) Also, gas-flow is non-trivial, you cannot just put the sensor into a case, put some holes in that case and hope for the best. And actual testing the device is not so cheap or easy too. I expect these fails were "blind designs" were the "engineer" just read the datasheet and build the device without ever doing any real and costly testing.

      Here's the thing about Chinese manufacturing. They will build to a price point and cut costs to meet the price and schedule. If you want quality you need to pay for it and closely monitor the results.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    3. Re:A quality CO sensor costs about $10..15 by chihowa · · Score: 3, Informative

      Which is good to keep in mind when buying from domestic brands, but Chinese manufacturers are increasing selling their shoddiest products directly through Amazon now. Some of these are designed directly in China with the intent of cutting costs to the minimum, which is even worse than the average cost-cutting approach used by domestic brands.

      Seriously, putting much trust in brand names is silly these days, but buying a piece of critical safety equipment from TOPOLEK, or WINFI, or MODOAO or any of the assortment of identical looking and implausibly cheap sources is more than just naive.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    4. Re:A quality CO sensor costs about $10..15 by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      Which is good to keep in mind when buying from domestic brands, but Chinese manufacturers are increasing selling their shoddiest products directly through Amazon now. Some of these are designed directly in China with the intent of cutting costs to the minimum, which is even worse than the average cost-cutting approach used by domestic brands.

      Seriously, putting much trust in brand names is silly these days, but buying a piece of critical safety equipment from TOPOLEK, or WINFI, or MODOAO or any of the assortment of identical looking and implausibly cheap sources is more than just naive.

      Great points. At least with a well known brand you have some assurance of at least a minimal level of quality; plus someone to go after if it fails. As my dad said, sometime the cheaper alternative is more expensive.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    5. Re:A quality CO sensor costs about $10..15 by gweihir · · Score: 1

      To be clear you're probably right that this was some gungho idiot making some blind design and shipping it on the cheap, but you can not universally tell that from the price.

      True, you need additional factors, like the number shipped and what the rest actually costs to make. Still, greed is a strong force and often people will not do essential tests even when they could have paid for them. Also note that at time of testing, they may not actually have any idea how many they will sell, unless it is a revised version of an earlier product.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    6. Re:A quality CO sensor costs about $10..15 by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Cutting costs this way is an art and not many are masters of it. You need to have an excellent understanding of the importance of all parts and steps. I have had some very optimized but still fully functional and reliable electronics components from China. I also had (rarely) utter crap. What stands out is that the good quality ones are often sold by a lot of different vendors. Still, you need to be able to evaluate quality as the buyer and have an understanding as to what price you actually need to pay or quality becomes impossible.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  2. Re:Test your alarm before mounting it by gweihir · · Score: 2

    While I have gotten used to new devices needing testing and often fixes before they can be used, it is utterly pathetic when this is a device used to warn of life-threatening dangers. But it seems you have to do these tests today.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  3. Re:Test your alarm before mounting it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I used to work for a fire and security company and the old service guys used to use incest sticks to test the CO detectors.

  4. Re: Test your alarm before mounting it by gweihir · · Score: 1

    For safety-critical equipment, that is the way to go.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  5. Seriously People? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Who the fuck is buying no-name Chinese junk to safeguard their lives, and then surprised when it doesn't work? Fake specifications, lies, deception, and shoddy construction are the hallmarks of Chinese manufacturing. Who DOESN'T know this?

    1. Re:Seriously People? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Landlords.

  6. Re:Test your alarm before mounting it by alvinrod · · Score: 1

    Put the alarm in a sealed box and add an item that is glowing/smoking (e.g. a cigarette will do). Within a minute or two, the alarm should sound.
    That is how I tested my alarms to see if my previous testing had rendered them nonfunctional before mounting them.

  7. So will Amazon recall? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    Or will their most popular product which they themselves promoted in the results, collected money for and shipped to consumers defective result in absolutely no negative effect on them and thus incentivise them to continue the practice?

  8. Who's buying the cheapest possible safety devices? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    I did not even consider buying a non-name brand CO detector. Who are these people that care enough about their lives to buy CO detectors, but so little that they buy one from someone with no accountability?

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  9. Re:Who's buying the cheapest possible safety devic by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    Some states like California require CO detectors when a house is sold (if it has natural gas or an attached garage). I can see sellers using the cheapest product that meets the legal requirement and passes the home inspection.

    I for one would be terrified that some cheap piece of garbage like that would fail, and then at best I would have to endure being dragged into court to testify about it. Safety devices are no place to skimp. Everywhere else, maybe. (The average home in America has been skimped on at every level...)

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  10. Re: Test your alarm before mounting it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Test it how? By pressing the button? What if the button is just directly wired up to a buzzer?

  11. Re:Who's buying the cheapest possible safety devic by gargeug · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't know any namebrand CO detectors because I buy them once every decade. That is my beef with Amazon, in the areas where people need guidance because they don't recognize any of the brands due to an infrequent purchase, Amazon seems to steer you to these garbage products.

  12. Re:Who's buying the cheapest possible safety devic by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

    I don't know any namebrand CO detectors because I buy them once every decade.

    I don't know any CO detectors, they are boring to talk to. But I am familiar with the names of some companies which make CO detectors, because they also make smoke alarms and fire extinguishers and have been doing so for decades.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  13. Re:Test your alarm before mounting it by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

    Put the alarm in a sealed box and add an item that is glowing/smoking (e.g. a cigarette will do). Within a minute or two, the alarm should sound.

    That would work for a smoke alarm but not for a carbon monoxide alarm. A carbon monoxide alarm needs something that produces carbon monoxide, like vehicle exhaust.

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
  14. Re:Who's buying the cheapest possible safety devic by whoever57 · · Score: 1

    I did not even consider buying a non-name brand CO detector.

    I had to throw away a name-brand CO/smoke detector. It went off when there was not CO or smoke. Reviews on Amazon show that this behaviour is common for this model. It was a newer model, with a built-in battery: the only way to stop it sounding its alarm is destructive.

    It's possible that the alarm was merely over-sensitive: there is probably some CO in the air in my house, but no other sensor has ever alarmed, before or after, but still, this suggests bad design from a brand-name manufacturer.

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  15. Re:Who's buying the cheapest possible safety devic by whoever57 · · Score: 1

    Some states like California require CO detectors when a house is sold

    My city (in CA) requires you to bring the CO and smoke detectors up to current code if you request any permit. That means, no removable battery types, a smoke detector in every bedroom, and a CO detector in any hallway that leads to bedrooms.

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  16. Re:Test your alarm before mounting it by hawguy · · Score: 1

    Put the alarm in a sealed box and add an item that is glowing/smoking (e.g. a cigarette will do). Within a minute or two, the alarm should sound.
    That is how I tested my alarms before mounting them.

    How did you calibrate it so you know it sounds the alarm before you die from a high concentration of CO?

  17. Re:Who's buying the cheapest possible safety devic by hawguy · · Score: 1

    Some states like California require CO detectors when a house is sold (if it has natural gas or an attached garage). I can see sellers using the cheapest product that meets the legal requirement and passes the home inspection.

    https://thelawdictionary.org/article/what-are-californias-requirements-for-carbon-monoxide-detectors/

    The sellers of my house did exactly that -- each level of the house has one of these knockoff detectors and noted by the inspector ("CO detectors installed, tested, and compliant with code" - where I'm sure "tested" meant "I pressed the button and it beeped")

    This was nearly a year ago before I knew about this recall, but as soon as I saw the unbranded detectors, I replaced them all with name-brand detectors... (and replaced the 15 year old smoke alarms too).

    Given that these CO detectors looked brand new, apparently they were living without any CO detectors at all (with gas heat, hot water and cooking), and an attached garage.

  18. Re:Who's buying the cheapest possible safety devic by hawguy · · Score: 2

    I don't know any namebrand CO detectors because I buy them once every decade. That is my beef with Amazon, in the areas where people need guidance because they don't recognize any of the brands due to an infrequent purchase, Amazon seems to steer you to these garbage products.

    But you do know name-brand stores, right? Buy from Home Depot, Walmart, etc.

    Or take 10 seconds and research something that you're relying on to save your life. Never trust Amazon reviews for life-safety equipment.

    Here's a freebie: the top rated CO detector by Consumer Reports is the First Alert CO615.

    But don't buy it from Amazon, they are well known to have counterfeit items in their inventory, purchase from a legitimate local store.

  19. Re:Who's buying the cheapest possible safety devic by hawguy · · Score: 1

    I did not even consider buying a non-name brand CO detector.

    I had to throw away a name-brand CO/smoke detector. It went off when there was not CO or smoke. Reviews on Amazon show that this behaviour is common for this model. It was a newer model, with a built-in battery: the only way to stop it sounding its alarm is destructive.

    It's possible that the alarm was merely over-sensitive: there is probably some CO in the air in my house, but no other sensor has ever alarmed, before or after, but still, this suggests bad design from a brand-name manufacturer.

    While annoying, when it comes to fire/smoke alarms, I'd rather have a false positive than a false negative.

  20. China vs USA by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    If you bought your faulty CO detected from a US company, you can take them to court. If it's bad enough a class action suit would be raised.

    If you bought it from China, then you can throw it in the garbage and chalk it up to caveat emptor.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:China vs USA by amorsen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you bought your faulty CO detected from a US company, you can take them to court. If it's bad enough a class action suit would be raised.

      It is not obvious to everyone that things labelled "Fulfilled by Amazon", "Amazon Prime", "Dispatched by Amazon" are NOT in fact sold by Amazon. Good luck suing "Special Price for You My Friend Inc." that it turns out you actually buy from, if you read enough fine print.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    2. Re:China vs USA by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Even if it's sold at Walmart it's still made in China and imported by a third party. You're still going to have a heck of a time getting any traction in court. Also I've found that cpsc.gov (Consume Product Safety Commission) doesn't usually announce recalls for unbranded products. Probably because cheap imported junk doesn't comply with federal product safety requirements, and Amazon doesn't enforce any of this for their sellers.

      I guess the moral of the story is that Amazon is not a trusted brand, and I don't understand why people buy stuff from them thinking it will be good.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    3. Re:China vs USA by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 1

      Until there is a costly recourse to *someone* involved in the import, advertising, and sale of these shoddy devices, there is a serious moral hazard here. We cannot allow Amazon to become some sort of legal firewall for illegal foreign activity.

      --
      the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
  21. Re:Test your alarm before mounting it by amorsen · · Score: 1

    Vehicles do not produce significant amounts of carbon monoxide these days. Catalytic converters take care of that.

    People used to euthanise undesirable animals caught in traps by exposing them to vehicle exhaust. Hopefully they have stopped; doing it today would be unreasonably cruel and slow.

    --
    Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
  22. Re:Surprised by meglon · · Score: 1

    Some of what i work with is sterling. Ebay is replete with sterling findings that are obvious fakes, and it has been for years with absolutely nothing done. First page example:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sterl...

    These earwires will weigh 2.5dwt per 10 pair. 100 pair will weigh 25dwt, which is 1.37 oz. That's 1.27 oz of silver, with a melt value of $20.85. BUT, you can have it made into earwires for a low low price of $8.99 AND free shipping.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/50PCs...

    These here have a melt value of $5.58 @ .34dwt. These you can have for a low low price of $1.68, with FREE SHIPPING from Hong Kong. (it would cost me $2.66 to mail this across the street)

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/925-S...

    Same as the one right above, just a different company.. and they're going to charge you a whopping $2.15 (for that $5.58 melt value silver) BUT, they're still going to give you free shipping from China.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/50PCS...

    This one here is one from Hong Kong, same as the last two, but for $1.89 (remember that's $5.58 melt value of silver there). The difference is: this is a SPONSORED add.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/925-S...

    I'm not even going to bother with this one. This one is selling some of these things at about 1/4 the melt value (the ones i checked).

    Fuck it, i'm tired of doing the math. The bad news.... i was less than 1/3rd of the way down the FIRST page in the search.... and some of those i skipped over are certainly fake crap as well, i just don't have the weight for those types of earwires. Now, it doesn't matter if you complain, because ebay does NOTHING. These sales have been going on for at least a decade.

    You have to be pretty stupid to think a company is going to take silver, form it into findings, and then sell it for 1/4 of the value of the silver that they could get ANYWHERE in the fucking world.

    --
    Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
  23. Re:Surprised by meglon · · Score: 1

    I actually rarely use Amazon, so my knowledge of what they do is pretty much nill. I'd imagine any place as big as them would have some fake shit, but it's how they deal with it that makes a difference... again, something i have no idea about on Amazon. So don't take my focus on ebay as a suggest amazon is better, i simply don't know about them.

    --
    Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
  24. Re: Test your alarm before mounting it by bestweasel · · Score: 1

    Thanks for that tip, the alarm's working. All i have to do now is get the car out of the living room.

  25. Re:Who's buying the cheapest possible safety devic by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

    I did not even consider buying a non-name brand CO detector. Who are these people that care enough about their lives to buy CO detectors, but so little that they buy one from someone with no accountability?

    Easy, people who are told they need to install a hundred of them, usually landlords or building owners who are renovating and need to bring it up to current code.

    When you're dealing with that many of them, there's a real savings to be had buying a $5 alarm versus a $50 one. This is especially so if the building is older and thus never actually had CO detectors at all.

    Likewise, the devices do expire, so you do have to replace them periodically (10 years or so) and again, if you're a building owner, you'll again shop for the cheapest.

    Another group might be builders - if you're building a subdivision of 50 houses, each of which may have 2-3 detectors, you're going to order them in bulk as well. Quality builders will hire a proper contractor to wire them up who will likely use quality name brand detectors (yes, you want to network the detectors so if it goes off on one floor, it will trigger ALL the detectors). But cheap contractors might just buy a bulk load of them and self-install them.