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Home Security Camera Sends Video To Wrong User (bbc.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from the BBC: A leading security camera-maker has sent footage from inside a family's home to the wrong person's app. Swann Security has blamed a factory error for the data breach -- which was brought to its attention by the BBC -- and said it was a "one-off" incident. The BBC first learned of the problem on Saturday, when a member of its staff began receiving motion-triggered video clips from an unknown family's kitchen. Until that point, Louisa Lewis had only received footage from her own Swann security camera, which she had been using since December. The development coincided with Ms Lewis's camera running out of battery power and requiring a recharge. A Swann spokeswoman said that "human error" had caused two cameras to be manufactured that shared the same "bank-grade security key -- which secures all communications with its owner." "This occurred after the [family] connected the duplicate camera to their network and ignored the warning prompt that notified: 'Camera is already paired to an account' and left the camera running," she added.

91 comments

  1. Cryptic Message by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    How is an ordinary user supposed to know the meaning or significance of that geekish warning message?

  2. Bank-grade security key? by toonces33 · · Score: 2

    Yeah, right.

    1. Re:Bank-grade security key? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'd believe they use bank grade security keys. Of course that's more a statement of lack of faith in banks rather than my faith in their product.

    2. Re:Bank-grade security key? by gtvr · · Score: 2

      It's like the phrase "highly classified" - it means nothing. In the US something can be classified as confidential, secret or top-secret. There is no category "highly." So what is bank-grade? I mean, we're talking key size here, so just give us a number. And obviously the implementation is broken if human error can put the same key on different devices.

    3. Re:Bank-grade security key? by Nidi62 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's like the phrase "highly classified" - it means nothing. In the US something can be classified as confidential, secret or top-secret. There is no category "highly." So what is bank-grade? I mean, we're talking key size here, so just give us a number. And obviously the implementation is broken if human error can put the same key on different devices.

      Is that like the "military-grade aluminum" Ford has been advertising as making their trucks out of now? Does that mean they were made out of recycled beer and coke cans picked up in military bases from Bagram to Bragg?

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    4. Re:Bank-grade security key? by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

      It may be marketing speak but it isn't wrong. They must mean HTTPS.

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    5. Re:Bank-grade security key? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's like..that's like manufacturing two Ethernet cards with the same MAC address! Non-unreprehensible!

    6. Re:Bank-grade security key? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Banks suck at (IT) security.

      Seriously, many banks required using the Java plugin for ten years after anyone who cares about security started recommending getting rid of the Java plugin.

      So "bank grade security key" probably means MAC address.

    7. Re:Bank-grade security key? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I think they mean "serial number".

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    8. Re:Bank-grade security key? by Junta · · Score: 2

      It's actually worse than that.

      Obviously their process is to generate a key and *then* load that key onto the device. For something like MAC address, this makes sense as you only have 24 bits to play with and you need to coordinate it.

      For a cryptographic key, the device should generate key if no key existing and they should be relying upon that to generate keys, rather than any external process. It shouldn't be possible for a private key to be duplicated because it should never be possible for a private key to be extracted or injected into a device.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    9. Re:Bank-grade security key? by omnichad · · Score: 1

      It's like restaurant-grade salt. Completely meaningless but at least meets the bare minimum.

    10. Re:Bank-grade security key? by AbrasiveCat · · Score: 1

      It's like restaurant-grade salt. Completely meaningless but at least meets the bare minimum.

      Oh wow, where can I get restaurant-grade salt? This grocery salt just isn't good enough for me.

    11. Re:Bank-grade security key? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      aka 128 bits, wif cheez.

    12. Re:Bank-grade security key? by swillden · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yeah, right.

      Meh.

      All this means is that they're using standard crypto -- and if it's really "bank grade" then it could be a little behind the times. Banks still use 3DES all over the place. That's not a security problem, exactly, but they really need to update.

      I'm surprised they didn't use the more common "military-grade security" phrase. It's not one whit more meaningful than "bank-grade security", other than it probably indicates use of AES, perhaps AES-256, given the NSA's apparent concern about quantum computing.

      I guess both phrases can be taken to indicate "We aren't complete idiots who roll our own ciphers" though it definitely leaves the door wide open for "(but we are stupid enough to roll our own protocols and implementations)". No way to know on the latter point without looking at the details.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    13. Re:Bank-grade security key? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, you want military spec salt!

    14. Re: Bank-grade security key? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Restaurant quality is lower than grocery store quality...

    15. Re:Bank-grade security key? by SScorpio · · Score: 1

      Did South Korea ever get away from the ActiveX control their banks used to require?

    16. Re:Bank-grade security key? by toonces33 · · Score: 1

      Do you salt your passwords with restaurant-grade salt?

    17. Re: Bank-grade security key? by toonces33 · · Score: 1

      Not always, but the quantities are much larger. Typically restaurants order by the case.

    18. Re: Bank-grade security key? by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      Having worked for some banks... This means "no security whatsoever"

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    19. Re: Bank-grade security key? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, we don't know.

      There are several grades of secrecy where even the name of the grade of security is classified. So.. some joker might have a "highly classified" level.

      But your statement is true for the publically known security levels.

    20. Re:Bank-grade security key? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you tell me which banks, I'd like my withdrawals paired with someone else's large-balance bank account, please ...

  3. Human error by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    'Camera is already paired to an account' as a warning when you've already paired it to your account? That's not human error, that's a design flaw.

  4. blame the end-user by burgundy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A subtle attempt to shift blame to the people that bought this piece of (apparent) junk, ""This occurred after the [family] connected the duplicate camera to their network and ignored the warning prompt that notified: 'Camera is already paired to an account' and left the camera running," she added."

    'Camera is already paired to an account'? Could mean it's already been paired to my account and I'm trying to re-pair it. Could be a message indicating success – that you've paired it to the intended account. I'm sure the company will claim this message's meaning is crystal clear and that the people who bought it are partially to blame. I'm not buying that (the dodge or the webcam).

    1. Re: blame the end-user by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed, the correct behaviour should be:

      This camera is already connected to a different account. Would you like to
      * Disconnect from all other accounts and connect it to this account
      * Leave the camera connected to other accounts and also to this account
      * Do not change this camera's connections

    2. Re: blame the end-user by vlueboy · · Score: 1

      Agreed, the correct behaviour should be:

      This camera is already connected to a different account. Would you like to
      * Disconnect from all other accounts and connect it to this account
      * Leave the camera connected to other accounts and also to this account
      * Do not change this camera's connections

      I've seen people get really nervous when the choice isn't "yes" and "no".
      Computer users and choice do not mix well, though I hate how UI design has taken this to extremes.

      In my experience, giving people detailed explanations triggers the attention deficit disorder unless they're heavily familiar with the product and confident in light of freedom rather than hand-holdy.

      Slashdot recently had a GUI discussion where we gleaned that legacy MacOS designs heavily leaned on action verbs like "Save" "Discard" "Cancel" or "Save" "Cancel". Writing this, I seem to recall an age around Windows 95 or so where 3-choice dialogs were common... nowadays it seems devs are lazy and just hook in the System API that automates all dialogs to OK/Cancel.

      In decades past many a program written like this had the pleasant unintended consequences when an otherwise English-only prompt with a long english question shows buttons with appropriate language translations for those buttons.

  5. Are you sure? by thegarbz · · Score: 2

    Your gun is currently aimed at your own foot. Are you sure you wish to continue pulling trigger?

    Given that the system identified the multiple account issue, and I assume they didn't have a common system in place to allow multiple accounts to work with one camera why was:

    a) the camera not depaired from the old account?
    b) was the camera allowed to be paired to a new account?

    bonus question:

    c) if this was by design to allow multiple accounts to access a camera, why is the system setup in such a poor way?

    1. Re:Are you sure? by Luthair · · Score: 2

      Sounds like one could sell the camera and continue to monitor it with their setup ;)

    2. Re:Are you sure? by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      I'm betting they cut scope and some of the multiple account access for a single camera code made it into the final build while the verification process did not.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    3. Re:Are you sure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a "Cloud Service," which means that all the sorting is done on a Swann server and the video streem is available to specific customers and staff through that.

      In database terminology (except that they're probably using one of the silly 'we don't want to be called a database' databases), there is a CAMS table with CAMID as the primary key, a Customers table with CID as the primary key, and an Ownership table which just consists of CAMID and CID pairings. This story would've been prevented if instead of using a crosstable, CID was a foreign key in the CAMS table, but it also would make it harder for Swann staff to give themselves viewing access to customer cameras (which might have a real utility in maintenance, but is built for creepy).

    4. Re:Are you sure? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I'm surprised that they even allow cameras to be moved between an accounts, I mean where is the profit in allowing used camera sales?

      The warning message was useless and probably not "ignored". Ordinary person buys a new camera and sets it up. App gives a random error message that doesn't make any sense (it's brand new, they haven't paired it yet) and doesn't explain anything. Happens all the time, buggy apps, try clicking through. Okay, it works, great.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:Are you sure? by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Or perhaps one starts pairing.

      Gets a message "already paired" and assumes the pairing is done and oddly phrased.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    6. Re:Are you sure? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I'm surprised that they even allow cameras to be moved between an accounts, I mean where is the profit in allowing used camera sales?

      Used cameras are not the issue here. People have account issues all the time with some good reasons to support moving devices between accounts. But the key here is the second part: The warning message was useless, and if this is the process they have for moving between accounts then it is horribly broken.

  6. Really??! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >A Swann spokeswoman said that "human error" had caused two cameras to be manufactured that shared the same "bank-grade security key"

    if i fucked up that hard, i would not try to sneak in marketing-speech into an apology...

    Also, what does "bank-grade security key" actually mean, "it's one of those fancy keys made with bits"?

    1. Re:Really??! by nedlohs · · Score: 2

      I think bank-grade means 4 digit passwords.

    2. Re:Really??! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think bank-grade means 4 digit passwords.

      The last four of one's SSN.

  7. Bank grade? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    two cameras to be manufactured that shared the same "bank-grade security key -- which secures all communications with its owner."

    It's not 'bank-grade' if you re-use the damned key.

    They can say this is a one-off all they want, but I suspect this is yet another company with shit products and terrible security.

  8. Misleading quotation by rhazz · · Score: 4, Informative
    The quotation in the summary and even a bit in the article are very misleading. The company seems to take full responsibility for the issue and are not passing blame. The line right after that quote is:

    "We are regretful that this was not addressed immediately and adequately by our support team, when discovered. We have addressed this and made some internal changes."

    They do however have a previous incident where the exact same thing happened, and in that case they apparently suggested it was because two completely unrelated users used the same user and password (which wasn't true).

    1. Re:Misleading quotation by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      The quotation in the summary and even a bit in the article are very misleading. The company seems to take full responsibility for the issue and are not passing blame. The line right after that quote is:

      "We are regretful that this was not addressed immediately and adequately by our support team, when discovered. We have addressed this and made some internal changes."

      They do however have a previous incident where the exact same thing happened, and in that case they apparently suggested it was because two completely unrelated users used the same user and password (which wasn't true).

      So in other words, they are incompetent and there is about zero reason for me to trust them with access to a camera in my house.

    2. Re:Misleading quotation by dj245 · · Score: 1

      The quotation in the summary and even a bit in the article are very misleading. The company seems to take full responsibility for the issue and are not passing blame. The line right after that quote is:

      "We are regretful that this was not addressed immediately and adequately by our support team, when discovered. We have addressed this and made some internal changes."

      They do however have a previous incident where the exact same thing happened, and in that case they apparently suggested it was because two completely unrelated users used the same user and password (which wasn't true).

      So in other words, they are incompetent and there is about zero reason for me to trust them with access to a camera in my house.

      My guess would be that 1 of the devices was the last of a production run, and the other was the first of the next run. A human error could cause them to have the same unique identifier. A minor mistake.

      It could be as you say, but regardless, I don't see a reason anybody who isn't doing porn would want a networked camera inside their house. If it is for home security, then outside cameras would be sufficient for identifying someone breaking and entering.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    3. Re:Misleading quotation by sjames · · Score: 1

      I guess you've never heard of a nannycam or latchkey kids.

  9. Camera already paired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Warning messages like this are entirely useless. If someone gets a message 'Camera is already paired to an account', they'll get annoyed and click through it. It doesn't tell them what the problem really is, it doesn't warn them of the consequences, and it's just plain in the way of them finishing the onerous task of registering their devices to get basic functionality.

    A better message might have warned them, 'this camera appears to be already registered to another account, possibly because it was resold. If you continue, the camera's previous owner will be able to view this camera in your home'. Even better, it could instruct them to contact tech support to switch ownership of this camera. Better yet, do away with the annoying useless popup message and just deregister the old account's ownership.

    They say it's a one-off factory error, but they still should have been able to foresee a camera being bought by one user and later sold to another user. Dealing with that problem would have made the one-off factory error a nonissue. Yes it would have deregistered the old camera, but at least that's something that can be handled through support rather than by sending video to the wrong account.

    1. Re:Camera already paired by Alain+Williams · · Score: 1

      It is not just that this warning is, to many people, cryptic - but that the warning was only given once. The user clicked and forgot, probably thinking "whatever that was about has gone away and is no longer a problem". This 'status' should remain and be flagged up with whatever control panel the user has - this would give them a chance to review it at a later time. You know what it is like ... you buy a new toy and just want to plug it in an see what it does. Once the excitement is over and you are more reflective you *might* try to figure out what that 'status' means.

    2. Re:Camera already paired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are assuming anyone actually reads them

    3. Re:Camera already paired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you have that backwords? The employee who got that message didn't SEND video to someone else, they RECEIVED video from someone else. So the warning should be " 'this camera appears to be already registered to another account, possibly because it was resold. If you continue, you will be able to view someone else's camera. This is a bonus feature provided without additional charge."

      What info/message/indication did the OTHER owner/camera user get (when they didn't do anything) to let them know another account was paired to their camera?

    4. Re:Camera already paired by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better yet, do away with the annoying useless popup message and just deregister the old account's ownership.

      Or just do away with the "let us control the device after you purchase it" BS and not have this problem in the first place, but I digress.

      Doing away with the error message wouldn't do any good and automatically deleting the old registration is an invitation for abuse. I.e. The Evil Maid kind where plugging it in for a few seconds and auto clicking through each set up prompt with a script, gives the "maid" access to the camera feed without the owner's knowledge.

      No, that message is when you as a developer get annoying and disable the "Yes" and "No" buttons for a few seconds, while making sure eye contact remains on the screen above the counter with the device's eye tracker, to ensure they read the message.

      Rather than make this easy to skip, we need to train people to actually read the message. If we're going to hand hold them, we may as well force them to read too. "No no Bobby, you have to read the rules before you can play."

  10. Cloud x1000 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Trust the cloud. Believe the cloud!

  11. The cloud by 110010001000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Another good cloud implementation. The video leaves the local network, goes to some server somewhere where anyone can access it, and then the server sends it to someone else. Of course, you COULD just store the video on the local SDcard in the camera, but then it wouldnt be cloud enabled.

    1. Re:The cloud by mikael · · Score: 2

      Cloud-enabled cameras allow you to stream your camera onto your smartphone. It's a nice idea so long as there isn't network congestion. Whenever I tried to stream video off my camera, the connection was unavailable. Then using wireshark, I once caught someone from AWS in Austin, Texas streaming the camera video.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    2. Re:The cloud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Cloud-enabled cameras allow you to stream your camera onto your smartphone.

      So does a web cam with a public IP.

      Yet another reason for IPv6, instead of these crappy workarounds (NAT and now sending the video to someone else and hoping that they send it back to the right person).

    3. Re:The cloud by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Yep. And when the person robbing you leaves with the camera, hopefully the take the SDcard out and leave it for you

    4. Re:The cloud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're an idiot.

    5. Re: The cloud by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ????? You are an idiot.

    6. Re:The cloud by edtice1559 · · Score: 1

      What could be even more insecure than sending the data to "some server somewhere" that somebody has probably made at least a trivial attempt to secure? A webcam with a routeable IP address!

  12. Badly worded warnings will be ignored by timholman · · Score: 2

    "This occurred after the [family] connected the duplicate camera to their network and ignored the warning prompt that notified: 'Camera is already paired to an account' and left the camera running," she added.

    And there's a big part of the problem: the phrase 'Camera is already paired to an account' is just so much word salad to the average user. They will look at it for a moment, briefly wonder what those words might mean, then click through and forget about them.

    If you want people to take such warnings seriously, you need to make it much more explicit, as in: "WARNING: The camera is already paired to another user's account. If you continue to use this camera, that user will be able to view the images from it without your knowledge. Please contact Swann technical support at xxx-xxx-xxxx immediately."

    1. Re:Badly worded warnings will be ignored by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want people to take such warnings seriously, you need to make it much more explicit

      But, think about it .. unless the manufacturer had coded to recognise that there is now a duplicate 'unique' ID in the system, how would the product know to say this?

      This is a case where a consumer bought something, believed it to be secure, and would have had zero understanding that the unique device ID was anything but unique. No consumer is going to understand that.

      There is no scenario I can see here in which we blame the consumer ... all of the blame goes to a company who claims they have bank-grade security, when in fact they've created multiple cameras with the same ID.

      Swann fucked up here. And for me, the only reasonable conclusion is there are likely a LOT more of these things. We've seen way too much shitty and incompetent security by way too many companies to give these guys the benefit of the doubt.

    2. Re:Badly worded warnings will be ignored by Freischutz · · Score: 1

      "This occurred after the [family] connected the duplicate camera to their network and ignored the warning prompt that notified: 'Camera is already paired to an account' and left the camera running," she added.

      And there's a big part of the problem: the phrase 'Camera is already paired to an account' is just so much word salad to the average user. They will look at it for a moment, briefly wonder what those words might mean, then click through and forget about them.

      If you want people to take such warnings seriously, you need to make it much more explicit, as in: "WARNING: The camera is already paired to another user's account. If you continue to use this camera, that user will be able to view the images from it without your knowledge. Please contact Swann technical support at xxx-xxx-xxxx immediately."

      I think the problem here is that they put a networked camera inside their own house in the first place. I set up and configured equipment from Swann for my sister. They retailers sell it to people as being user-installable and user-configurable. The first is generally true but the latter is not. Their systems aren't that bad (apart from this issue apparently) and not hard to configure if you bother reading the instructions. But if you want to get the remote access via their app to work it requires you to have a static IP address. Now try to get a hold of somebody at Sky internet customer service who even knows what that is. I got passed on from Pontius to Pilate and thence to 2nd level support before I finally go a hold of somebody with a clue what a static IP address is. Having said that, I'm fine with filming what's happening outside of the house. I could possibly get used to an air-gapped camera system inside the house that feeds video to a computer which stores it on an encrypted disk but even that I'd be hesitant about. I'd feel much safer with outside cameras only, an alarm system and two big, suspicious minded and, very, very ill tempered guard dogs roaming the house at all times.

    3. Re:Badly worded warnings will be ignored by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the reading, it's an error handler that displayed the message. The developer who wrote it probably had no idea of the consequences thereof. The old way of putting things like Fatal Error: message would have got the message through. But that's pretty bad in general.

    4. Re:Badly worded warnings will be ignored by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They will wonder what the words might mean, but have nobody to ask if the company doesn't have a phone number with live support technicians, or if the technicians are new or have not encountered this kind of problem. Which is likely because it's never supposed to happen. The problem is that IDs which were supposed to always be unique, weren't.

    5. Re:Badly worded warnings will be ignored by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Understood that companies can't put every unlikely contigency into their messages. The reason EULAs are so long is they have to specify every contingency or the courts won't recognize that contingency. So the criticism is not that this company has worse messages than average, but that the average across most companies is so low, and this is an example of it.

  13. Shouldn't have been possible in the first place by Junta · · Score: 2

    The way it should work is for a device to check if it has a key, if it doesn't generates it internally. It should *not* be the case that a device have the private key injected by something externally generating the key. Moving private keys around is bad practice and everything that purports to be secure needs to generate the key on-device rather than accept an external key.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    1. Re:Shouldn't have been possible in the first place by edtice1559 · · Score: 1

      Except that you then have a small possibility of key collision!

    2. Re:Shouldn't have been possible in the first place by Junta · · Score: 1

      Putting aside a debate on whether or not that is a realistic probability, if it is a concern, the device must obvious be outputting a public key and you can have that facility detect a duplicate and request the device regenerate.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  14. Mil-spec by sjbe · · Score: 2

    Is that like the "military-grade aluminum" Ford has been advertising as making their trucks out of now?

    In that context it probably means material that is mil-spec. Just means it has certain characteristics specified by and conforming to a standard set by the military. Doesn't mean it's necessarily anything special. Milspec parts often meet other standards too though milspec parts are typically more rigorous than many other standards available.

    Companies like to use this to do some promotional puffery that makes their product sound more impressive than it might otherwise but what they are saying isn't a lie and it does have some meaning.

    1. Re:Mil-spec by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is that like the "military-grade aluminum" Ford has been advertising as making their trucks out of now?

      In that context it probably means material that is mil-spec. Just means it has certain characteristics specified by and conforming to a standard set by the military.

      Nope. It's what they want you to think, but nope. If it was actually mil-spec, they'd have said so. It's a meaningless "marketing term". In quotes because it was the phrase used by the judge in the court case that decided this kind of chicanery was legal.

      Ford can't say "mil-spec" unless there is actually a military spec that addresses the material in question, and the material actually meets that specification.

      However, if Ford wants you to believe that their aluminum is equivalent to a similar material the military might use, but without having to show that it's true, they can make up a marketing term which is then treated as a sort of corporate opinion, and as such no legal challenge against it can be mounted.

      Companies like to use this to do some promotional puffery that makes their product sound more impressive than it might otherwise but what they are saying isn't a lie and it does have some meaning.

      Promotional puffery, yes. However, it is a lie and has no meaning whatsoever.

    2. Re:Mil-spec by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's every bit as much of a dodge as when the pawn broker asked Homer Simpson if the TV was cable ready and he replied "ready as she'll ever be!"..

      If the intent of a message is to create a false impression in the mind of the recipient, it is a lie. Calling it anything else is a second lie.

  15. Bad alert by Rick+Zeman · · Score: 1

    If I'd have received the "already paired" text alert on my (sounds like) 2nd boot of the device, I'd think it was telling me it was paired to my account. Now if said "already paired to SOMEONE ELSE'S account" that'd be a bit different.

  16. Poor Quality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Poor Programming and "DevOps" done by the team.

    -Poor manufacturing quality control [ duplicate key ]
    -Poor programming - duplicate key not detected
    -Poor testing - duplicate keys should be rejected
    -Poor security - duplicate keys should be revoked
    -Poor quality App Testing
    -Poor quality hardware/software integration - duplicate keys should be rejected by server, and a new key generated

    I build my own security cam with a raspberry pi, a CSI camera, and an infrared detector, it cost less then $100. It mails me snaps of motion, and doesn't need "cloud" access. It also avoids all these problems above.

  17. Four digit PIN by raymorris · · Score: 3, Funny

    Bank grade would be a four digit PIN.

    1. Re:Four digit PIN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Numeric only at that...

  18. OMG ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HOW COMPANIES DESTROY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mail gets delivered to wrong person: no biggie.
    Data mistakenly gets sent to wrong account: OMG THIS IS SO TERRIBLE. MAH PRIVACY. GAWDDDDD COMPANIES. OH DAMN YOU CRUEL WORLD.

    There's really no difference in the systems underlying both in terms of routing and handling information - so why is everyone surprised that they're equally error prone?

  19. WTF is a "bank grade" security key? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd just like to know... thanks... what makes a security key "bank grade?" What is so special about the security keys used by banks?

  20. Why not independent cameras? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WHY do cameras 'have' to be connected to 'the cloud'? Every camera on the market apparently NEEDS to be internet-connected.

    Why can't they offer the ability - if the customer wants it - to simply stream to a router and then from the router to a device IN the house? As an example: I (wheelchair-bound, two floors, stairlift, wheelchair on each floor, slow but sufficient-for-me cheap internet) would LOVE to have a secure system to let me see all my cameras on a wifi/smartphone off a separate non-internetted router rather than have it streamed somewhere (needing a faster, pricey connection) to be bounced back to me.

  21. Mil-spec aluminum is a thing by sjbe · · Score: 1

    It's what they want you to think, but nope. If it was actually mil-spec, they'd have said so.

    Mil-spec doesn't mean anything to most general consumers. Saying "military grade" is the marketing BS for the same thing and it provides some legal cover in case some lawyer gets a burr in their saddle about it.

    Ford can't say "mil-spec" unless there is actually a military spec that addresses the material in question, and the material actually meets that specification.

    And as it happens there ARE military specifications for most materials including aluminum. I deal with them daily. Most metals have mil-spec options if you want them. In many cases they don't even cost extra. I deal in wire (copper mostly) that routinely has UL, mil-spec, and several other specifications attached to it. I sell products daily that I could say have "military grade copper" in them if I wanted to. Wouldn't mean much but it wouldn't be a lie either. Without looking I can almost guarantee you some amount of the aluminum that Ford uses happens to have a mil-spec on it.

  22. Should be, makes duplication more likely by raymorris · · Score: 1

    It sounds like this is an identifier rather than an encryption key, but let's suppose we're talking about keys, and specifically private keys.

    Yes, it's more secure to generate a private key on the device, so insider threats don't know the key. However, that makes it MORE likely to have duplicates, not less likely. Generating them externally, you can easily ensure you don't get repeats, or more easily, control the likelihood of repeats with a good random source.

    If the device generates it's own key, the default is that two cameras with the same electronics will generate the same key. You have to put in significant work to come up with a pseudo random number from determinate electronics. Unless the device publishes something about the key, you can't be sure there are no duplicates.
     

    1. Re:Should be, makes duplication more likely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If the device has a proper internal HRNG, it can generate its own key securely. If it doesn't, it won't be able to generate secure session keys, defeating any possible encryption scheme.
      If you have to check your generator for duplicates, your RNG isn't random (enough) and shouldn't be used for encryption.
      A PRNG cannot produce random numbers from deterministic sources.
      A private key is useless without a matching public key. The public key, by necessity, would be published by the device if it is using a private key.
      But yes, this is probably a case of a duplicate MAC, which still shows shoddy process control.

    2. Re:Should be, makes duplication more likely by raymorris · · Score: 1

      Most systems do not contain a hardware random number generator, yet they DO manage to produce cryptographically secure keys.

      As it happens, a camera sensor in the dark (such as these wireless cameras, with the lens cover on) is pretty good hrng.

    3. Re:Should be, makes duplication more likely by Junta · · Score: 1

      However, that makes it MORE likely to have duplicates, not less likely.

      In either case, if it is truly a private/public key, the chances of generating the same key are astronomically low, even across trillions of tries if doing it properly. For the external approach, there exists the possibility of process error to install the same key to multiple device.

      If by chance two onboard devices generate the same key by chance, then the external system can request key regeneration. If this facility is triggered at all, it probably means there's something wrong with your RNG strategy.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  23. Geek security camera solutuon by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

    Does anyone have a suggestion for a good wifi camera for somoene that already has FreeNAS?

    --
    I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    1. Re: Geek security camera solutuon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I heard swan is pretty secure and trustworthy. ;)

    2. Re:Geek security camera solutuon by dj245 · · Score: 1

      I'm a big fan of the traditional commercial-type IP cameras and network video recorders (NVRs). I have a dedicated NVR, but all of my cameras can save to any local network share. I have Dahua branded stuff from Aliexpress but there are plenty of brands who sell similar products.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    3. Re: Geek security camera solutuon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I use the LOREX '4k' camera system. You don't have to use the 'cloud' if you don't want to, it works locally, and streams locally as well. Unfortunately it uses a shit browser plugin (safari and ie only), but it actually works better than swamm crud

    4. Re: Geek security camera solutuon by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      Browser plugin sounds like a no-go for me. It will end up being bricked when the plugin is no longer supported, and I don't feel like maintaining an old vm just for accessing my security videos. Ease of use is a primary goal. If its a pain in my ass, I won't bother with it.

      Or is the plugin just for configuring the camera, and it saves its data as normal files to a network share?

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  24. Camera is already paired to an account by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The message "Camera is already paired to an account" to me means that after I replaced the battery I don't need to set up my account again, because it still paired to my account.

  25. Bank Grade? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everybody else sells Military Grade!

  26. Devs are at fault by vlueboy · · Score: 1

    Today's lazy dev mentality. Every fiscal quarter a certain dev or other will delegate a dangerous bug into the realm of "one-off". I am tired of this mentality of waving bug tracker reports away and closing them. We know they never get to the bug if it's delayed as a "corner case", improbable, right off the bat. They often close 'em when long enough has passed that we've stopped posting new leads, reports and requests for updates. Worse, many bug reports remain as "NEW" for years even after several different weeks of our trying to escalate them. It's intentional cruft.

    Devs are saving face when they mess up. "One-off" is PR made to alude to some lottery-winning odds... a quantum soup with flukes so infinitely improbable that "NEVER GONNA HAPPEN AGAIN because the user will go away if we hide and we can pretend it never happened in the first place!" is the lie we're expected to live with and to spread to the users.

    Helpdesk staff and programmers are supposed to follow logical thinking, fully aware that computers are powered by deterministic processes. A certain set of conditions will ALWAYS railroad an input from every single user who mounted the minecart right into a hard brick wall. It's just a matter of having the cart placed visibly enough for the conditions to be met over and over. Yet the people with the power to fix it deem the report as worthless due to negligence and shiny-chasing desires. The tech industry's drive is painfully shifting to a realm of stupid^W willfully hostile decisions the likes of Firefox, KDE4, Gnome3, Windows Metro and 10, SystemD proliferation and the Tracking + Analytics + Ad wars.

    I've seen cases of severe bugs waved away by either hiding the feature that led to the bug or just giving an inaccurate warning that eventually comes back when some other related component is inadvertently not obfuscated with the same malice. Today's companies only "change" when something horribly high-profile happens and the reputation lands an egg on its face. The low-wage guys at the bottom were unable to change things when there was time and ample focus on the problem and reasons to fix it. Until tech makers --not tech *users* become the focus of today's court retribution worldwide (ie: being arrested for stupid stuff like breaking in when you're reporting an authentication / login breach as a user, but never seeing arrests of developers who create the breach to abuse the back door, let alone policy-makers... closed-door conspirators and knowing CEOs --think internet of things and remote power plant insecurity, while you're at it), things will continue this way.

  27. I can't wait until by BrookSmith · · Score: 1

    I can't wait until my bank issues me with a "Bank Grade" key so a least that way I will have access to an account with money in it.

  28. a "one-off" incident by q4Fry · · Score: 1

    a "one-off" incident

    I was really imagining this was weasel-speak for an "off-by-one" error, and everyone was getting the feed from the customer's account with the ID one lower than theirs.

    My guess would be that 1 of the devices was the last of a production run, and the other was the first of the next run.

    Your theory is way more likely... and less interesting. =)

  29. VPN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is why my cameras are on a separate VLAN that does not route to internet and are only controlled and viewed internally or over VPN.