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Ancient Public Library Discovered In Germany (theguardian.com)

Archaeologists have discovered the remains of the oldest public library in Cologne, Germany, "a building erected almost two millennia ago that may have housed up to 20,000 scrolls," reports The Guardian. From the report: The walls were first uncovered in 2017, during an excavation on the grounds of a Protestant church in the centre of the city. Archaeologists knew they were of Roman origins, with Cologne being one of Germany's oldest cities, founded by the Romans in 50 AD under the name Colonia. But the discovery of niches in the walls, measuring approximately 80cm by 50cm, was, initially, mystifying.

"It took us some time to match up the parallels -- we could see the niches were too small to bear statues inside. But what they are are kind of cupboards for the scrolls," said Dr Dirk Schmitz from the Roman-Germanic Museum of Cologne. "They are very particular to libraries -- you can see the same ones in the library at Ephesus." It is not clear how many scrolls the library would have held, but it would have been "quite huge -- maybe 20,000," said Schmitz.

25 of 129 comments (clear)

  1. Unluckily, the scrolls are long gone... by ffkom · · Score: 5, Funny

    ... probably had to be taken away due to copyright claims of some imperial Roman mega-corporations.

    1. Re:Unluckily, the scrolls are long gone... by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 5, Informative

      Theres so much ancient knowledge and history that we will never know about because the only copies were destroyed in the burning of Alexandria, the burning of books by the first Chinese emeror, the burning of Rome, the destruction of the Aztec civilization by the conquistadors and countless other deliberate destructions of ancient libraries. The absence of copyright might not have saved them but copyright certainly wouldve hindered there being more copies of the works contained in these libraries.

      Back then there was no copyright - the problems were a) it was a lot of work copying a scroll, let alone thousands. and b) there weren't enough scrolls to write on anyway, so they had to wiped and overwrite used ones (palimpsest). Even moving type printing wasn't really enough, only after ways to mass produce cheap paper were invented, people realised that somebody else could just print the same book as you did at the same cost - but without the cost of creating/acquiring the content. That's when Copyright came into play.

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    2. Re:Unluckily, the scrolls are long gone... by nukenerd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ancient civilizations were smarter, everything was in the Public Domain.

      I don't know how they are sure that this was a public library, but even if it was you can be pretty sure that it was not open to any member of the public.

    3. Re:Unluckily, the scrolls are long gone... by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's a bit ironic that you claim there was no copyright in a discussion including Alexandria... Home of the first copyright law. It gave them the right to copy any book coming through their port. They kept the originals and returned the copies. Sadly, copyright law took a very different turn later.

      --
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    4. Re:Unluckily, the scrolls are long gone... by azcoyote · · Score: 4, Informative

      Theres so much ancient knowledge and history that we will never know about because the only copies were destroyed in .... the destruction of the Aztec civilization by the conquistadors ...

      Actually, around 1430, prior to the invasion of the conquistadors, the Mexica (Aztec) king Itzcóatl solidified his cultural rule over the people by having the existing historical texts burned (León-Portilla, Aztec Thought and Culture, 155). Because of this, Mexica history can be rather vague--even aside from the obvious difficulties of translating pictures into language without the original context. The conquistadors destroyed texts too, but what we do know about the Mexica (or more broadly, the Nahua, the peoples who spoke Nahuatl) is largely thanks to certain friars who sought to record as much as they could. Still, the Aztec civilization was not all that old, and much of the history of Mexico is hidden behind it.

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    5. Re:Unluckily, the scrolls are long gone... by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      No, it does not. If you create something, you own the copyright (unless you did it as a work for hire). Any 'corporate' involvment is strictly as a result of an agreement between the creator and the corportation, not copyright law.

      That is a lot of horse shit. The original terms of copyright were reasonably equitable; in exchange for limited copyright protection, the material would pass into the public domain and belong to all of us. But corporations lobbied for copyright extensions time and again, and now copyright has no benefit for The People. Because...

      The public benefits by having the works created.

      Works will be created with or without copyright. And without copyright, they would belong to all of us. Granted, not all of the same works would be created, but different works would be created. Also, the same kinds of works could be created, for example movies could be funded through various forms of crowdsourcing. The rewards for buying in would include early access to showings of movies, for example. It's nonsensical to believe that copyright is the only reason works are created.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  2. Weak evidence for being public by raymorris · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ancient libraries were very often (nearly always?) private. They would either serve a particular institution, such as a government body, or some were only open to members who paid the high membership fees (compare a country club). For example, the vast majority of the holdings of Library of Congress aren't available of the public.

    The article indicates they think it was a public library because it was located near the center of town, next.to a church, and there were public buildings nearby. Again, the Library of Congress is at the center of Washington, near public buildings, across the street from the capitol, the Supreme Court building, and a church. It's not a public library.

    1. Re:Weak evidence for being public by Sique · · Score: 2

      In this case, it is, as the town center of the old Colonia Agrippina was exactly where the town center of today's Cologne is. There is a continuous development from Colonia Agrippina to today's Cologne (and on the other side of the Rhine river, where today's Cologne-Deutz is, was the Roman fortress Castrum Divitensium. Even the churches in Cologne's town center were mostly built on the foundations of Roman temples.

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      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    2. Re:Weak evidence for being public by hey! · · Score: 5, Informative

      There were definitely libraries in ancient Rome intended to serve the masses, although they mostly date from slightly later than this (e.g. the Library of Celsus, built in 139 CE in what is now Turkey).

      One of the perqs of being a politician in Ancient Rome is that it afforded you a chance to amass a private fortune. But since you had to be rich to play that game to begin with, what did you spend that new money on? Buying popularity.

      The ultimate examples of that were what we misleadingly call Roman "baths", which by the imperial era had become a combination bath, gym, beauty salon, mall, theater, restaurant, art gallery, and library. Basically they were crammed with every entertaining thing the politician could imagine. Now, granted, wealthy Romans had baths in their home and slaves to feed and groom them, but Romans were a sociable lot; it wasn't enough to be rich, you had to be seen being rich, and generous too.

      Of course baths were so expensive in their engineering only the very richest politicians could afford to donate them to the public, which is why the great era of Roman bath-building was the imperial era. But earlier on politicians donated less grand (by Roman standards -- plenty grand by any other) public works, including public libraries. Gaius Asinius Pollio, patron of the poet Virgil and an accomplished writer himself, donated the first public library in Rome with money he looted from Iran. That was built around 39 BC.

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    3. Re:Weak evidence for being public by hey! · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Books and scrolls were seriously costly back then, you wouldn’t want just anyone to walz in and start pawing them. Especially if they couldn’t.read anyway.

      That is exactly what happened in Ancient Roman baths and public libraries. And the literacy rate in the Empire was about 10% overall, but likely would have been higher in the cities where people are engaged in commerce and government. Given that the population of the city of Rome at the time we're talking was 1.5 million, there would surely be hundreds of thousands of potential patrons for a public library in Rome itself.

      Now ancient Cologne had about 20,000 inhabitants; if 10% of them could read that'd be 2000 potential patrons. However since the function of the city was to administer the Roman province of Germania Inferior ("Lower Germany"), I'd guess the literacy rate would be higher, accounting for a population of bureaucrats, administrators and military officers.

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    4. Re:Weak evidence for being public by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Pretty much the only book people would see in The West during the dark ages, was the bible.

      If you weren't a priest then, the only books you'd see were the account books of your business. Yes, businesses kept account ledgers then. Some of the oldest writings we've found have been invoices...

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    5. Re:Weak evidence for being public by azcoyote · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There was even a time, when owning a bible was forbidden...

      Proof? It's easy to repeat these claims, but actual history is far more complex. I don't know of any law ever actually being against owning a Bible. Moreover, Catharism was not persecuted for its use of the Bible, but rather for its attitude against the Bible; like Marcion and the Manichees before, they saw the Godof the Old Testament as evil. Thus the movement had very little to do with the Bible, and was fueled more by other ascetic, philosophical, and mystical influences.

      Owning a Bible was not illegal, but it was nearly impossible for the poor and uneducated masses prior to the printing press. Nobles may own Bibles. In many cases, however, even the book read at Mass was not a whole Bible, but merely a lectionary, which contained the readings of the days but not the entire content of the Bible. This allowed for better mass production.

      It's very easy to ascribe sinister motives to everything, but the people of the middle ages were pretty much the same as us, and economic explanations are often enough to understand the situation. Reading the Bible was not prohibited, but it was assumed that the Bible had to be read according to Church tradition, and so people also read it alongside commentaries and under guidance. Nobles may be privileged to own books--and not just the Bible, but other books as well--but the average peasant simply did not have the money. The price of books was high because of a lack of supply to meet demand. Books were hand-copied word by word.

      --
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  3. Alternative explanation by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    the niches were too small to bear statues inside

    Unless the statues were really small too.

    Pshaw! So -called "experts".

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:Alternative explanation by jbmartin6 · · Score: 2

      Any sufficiently small statue is indistinguishable from an action figure.

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  4. Re:So, what of the scrolls? by moronoxyd · · Score: 2

    Right, that's why monasteries were known to be places where monks working as scribes duplicated scrolls and books.

  5. Re:So, what of the scrolls? by AHuxley · · Score: 3, Informative

    AC the world moved to the Codex. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

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  6. Re:So, what of the scrolls? by Jzanu · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Early Christians did intentionally destroy Pagan writings, including Greek and Roman science, and even went so far as to rape and murder the academic Hypatia for the sake of their internal gossip. They created only limited religious writing. All science from the Greeks and Romans was preserved exclusively by the Arab civilization. I say this as a Catholic, so don't imagine some offense. It is just that history and reality are different than you know.

  7. Re:So, what of the scrolls? by Freischutz · · Score: 4, Informative

    Early Christians did intentionally destroy Pagan writings, including Greek and Roman science, and even went so far as to rape and murder the academic Hypatia for the sake of their internal gossip. They created only limited religious writing. All science from the Greeks and Romans was preserved exclusively by the Arab civilization. I say this as a Catholic, so don't imagine some offense. It is just that history and reality are different than you know.

    Exclusively?? That is quite simply not true. While there have always been book burning morons among the Christians like in any other religion they never dominated for any length of time and were fiercely opposed by scholastically minded people within the church. Large numbers of manuscripts were copied and preserved in Christian monasteries by monks and nuns. In fact we owe a big debt to both Arab scholars and religious figures as well as their Christian counterparts for the preservation of much of the surviving ancient literature and scientific writings. In fact Arab books were translated into western languages during the middle ages, that includes the Quaran which was translated into Latin by monks as early as the 11th and 12th centuries and scientific works such as the famous medical encyclopaedias written by Ibn Sina (known as Avicenna to medieval Europeans) which became well known reference works in Europe of the Middle Ages. The worst we can accuse Christian monks, Arab religious figures and scholars of both cultures of is that they did not have the time or capacity to save everything. That being said we are still finding ancient works in monastic collections that were thought to have been lost.

  8. Re:So, what of the scrolls? by nukenerd · · Score: 3, Informative

    Early Christians did intentionally destroy Pagan writings.

    Correct, even into Victorian times, although Victorian times also saw efforts to revive knowledge of Pagan matters and customs, like Morris dancing.

    As an example, "fairies", the ones in childrens books that look like pretty dolls, are actually a sugar-coated survivor from a large pantheon of pagan spirits and demons that pre-dated Christianity, from both Norse and Classical origins. Early Christian priests did everything in their power to eradicate this extensive folklore.

  9. Re:So, what of the scrolls? by azcoyote · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All science from the Greeks and Romans was preserved exclusively by the Arab civilization.

    Such an overblown claim is so easy to unravel, because all it takes is one example. Aristotle was largely preserved by the Arabs, but Plato did not need to be re-introduced in the West, because earlier Christian theologians generally liked Plato a lot. Aristotle was never actually destroyed in the West, but he simply was not liked, so his manuscripts were not copied enough and eventually disappeared (papyrus and paper rot, you know). Both Plato and Aristotle were pagans (though not of the same sort as traditional Greek paganism), and neither had their texts burned for this.

    In fact, Christians generally only intentionally destroyed heretical works. A pagan work cannot be heretical. A heretical work is by someone who claims to be Christian but teaches falsely. I'm sure some ancient Christians somewhere destroyed pagan works, but I cannot think of a single instance where the documentary evidence explicitly states that Christians are destroying pagan texts. You can find passages where they talk about the need to destroy heretical texts, and you can find plenty of passages where they proclaim their fondness for Greek and Roman writings, but I cannot recall any passages about destroying Greek and Roman writings for their paganism. Please, find me one.

    Note however that there is a deeper problem to your claim. You identify Christianity with the West. If Western European Christianity lost Greek texts, then you conclude that Christians destroyed them. But Christianity also existed in the East, even within Arab lands, and those Christians did not necessarily lose Aristotle. After all, the fall of Constantinople to the Turks did not occur until 1453!

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  10. Re:So, what of the scrolls? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you honestly think that most knowledge was preserved by monks in the middle ages, particularly in latin manuscripts, then you are really, *really*, *REALLY* uneducated on this topic. My college studies included far more medieval and ancient history than is common for students (I attended multiple universities and took every history course for medieval and older that I could).

    Certainly *some* knowledge was preserved by monks. Even useful things from time to time.

    But there was not "complete destruction of civil institutions" as you say. Much used to be made of the "fall of Rome" but that overplaying went out of style decades ago. One observation I recall was that the "dark ages" were only "dark" because of a paucity of written records -- but that there were actually plenty of records and as research continued what was "dark" continually shrank.

    Around five to ten years ago I did an extensive survey of 500 AD to 1000 AD in Europe (that quickly focused on the latter part of the period) that found some interesting things, like Charlemagne's public school (not just for the aristocracy, but noble children rubbing shoulders with commoners). Or that the lot of the serfs was made worse by the eradication of the iron plow share in favor of roman-style agriculture. We know lots of things about the time period, largely because there was *not* complete destruction of civil institutions.

    But throughout that time period the vast majority of regional knowledge preservation, much less adding to the store, was the result of muslims. I realize that doesn't make for good material in christian-centric teaching, but it doesn't change reality.

    In that line, there was a public school "history" text that went after muslims for legally limiting the number of wives to four and completely glossed over Charlemagne's wives and concubines (just counting wives he had more than four) -- all within a span of two pages.

    None of this makes christians bad and muslims good, but people who are intent on either the former or the latter misrepresent and omit significant facts.

  11. Re:Misleading title. by mcswell · · Score: 2

    Top 1% of what part of the world? There were certainly parts of the Roman empire where the literacy rate was far higher. The Jewish population, for example, was quite literate. Also, it wasn't until much later (than this public library) that the Church controlled anything, much less access to its scriptures. If access to books was controlled earlier, it's only because books were very valuable; sort of like controlling access to the diamond rings under glass in your local jewellery store.

    As for excommunication being a death sentence, I am not sure where you got that idea. Most people who were excommunicated went on to live long lives; the army of the Fourth Crusade was excommunicated by the Pope, and while I'm sure many of them died out there, it was not because they were excommunicated. I've NEVER heard that the Church gave permission to execute those who were excommunicated.

    In sum, if you are correct that "Only an under educated person today would not be aware of how society worked 1.800-1.900 years ago", then I'm afraid you've placed yourself among the under-educated.

  12. KJV by mcswell · · Score: 2

    Are you sure that's not just because the English is old (Early Modern, roughly same period as Shakespeare)? I've read both the KJV and other translations all the way through, and while there are certainly places where the KJV is not only older English, but also just strange, as well as places where the translation is not so good (mostly Old Testament, maybe especially Psalms), it's not all that bad if you can deal with the thee's and thou's.

  13. Re:So, what of the scrolls? by ilguido · · Score: 2
    A random guy claim to have studied medieval history (probably his university is called Wikipedia) and he is modded up because his post fits some agenda.

    But throughout that time period the vast majority of regional knowledge preservation, much less adding to the store, was the result of muslims. I realize that doesn't make for good material in christian-centric teaching, but it doesn't change reality.

    Muslims (or better, Christians and some Hebrews employed by Muslims) began to translate Greek books into Arabic in the 8th-9th century, after the conquest of the Near East in the 7th century. The Roman Empire became a Christian Empire during the 4th century. Who do you think preserved those texts in the meantime (just 4 or 5 centuries, you know)? As a comparison Arabic texts were mainly translated into Latin in the 12th century, 3 or 4 century after they were translated from Greek.

    You claim to have studied the 500-1000 AD period and Charlemagne and his public schools: then you should know the paucity of Greek scholars in Western Europe, which had hindered the diffusion of Greek texts for centuries. One of the best Greek translator at the court of the Frankish Kingdom was an Irish monk, Eriugena and that because Ireland was almost spare by the Barbarian Invasions and the chaos they sparked.

  14. Re:So, what of the scrolls? by redlemming · · Score: 2

    All science from the Greeks and Romans was preserved exclusively by the Arab civilization.

    First, the knowledge of the ancient Greeks and Romans wasn't really science. Science didn't really start to evolve until the 16th or 17th century.

    Second, after the fall of the Western Roman empire, the Eastern Roman empire (often known as Byzantium or the Byzantine Empire) would continue for almost 1000 years longer (the capital city of Constantinople would fall to the Ottoman Turks in 1435).

    Huge amounts of earlier knowledge were preserved in Byzantium during this long period. As things started to fall apart (due in part due to Arab pressure), people from this civilization fled back to the West seeking safer lives. Many scholars consider this a primary driving force to the Italian Renaissance.

    What you are referring to as the Arab civilizations (a bit of a loose term, depending upon how you define 'Arab') certainly made some unique contributions, and they helped to preserve some knowledge that might otherwise have been lost, but they did not have the sole or exclusive role in preserving ancient knowledge. A case could even be made that the Arab / Ottoman / etc pressure on Byzantium had a net negative effect in the overall preservation of ancient knowledge.

    The Arabs were not alone in creating pressure on Byzantine civilization: the first time the city of Constantinople was sacked it would be by Christian crusaders (in 1204).