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US Government Seeks Facebook Help To Wiretap Messenger, Report Says (reuters.com)

The U.S. government is trying to force Facebook to break the encryption in its popular Messenger app so law enforcement may listen to a suspect's voice conversations in a criminal probe, Reuters reported Friday, citing three people briefed on the case said, resurrecting the issue of whether companies can be compelled to alter their products to enable surveillance. From the report: The previously unreported case in a federal court in California is proceeding under seal, so no filings are publicly available, but the three people told Reuters that Facebook is contesting the U.S. Department of Justice's demand. The judge in the Messenger case heard arguments on Tuesday on a government motion to hold Facebook in contempt of court for refusing to carry out the surveillance request, according to the sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

51 comments

  1. Face BALLS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    suck em nerds

  2. Goat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    4U.

  3. I'm a fag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'll suck your dick

  4. I actually don't have a problem with this by eclectro · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Facebook is a platform that can not be trusted. Everybody needs to know that.

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    1. Re:I actually don't have a problem with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's how freedoms are eroded. This would set a precedent that could then be applied to non-evil companies. You think the secret courts don't already have a back door? They're trying to get it in the front now.

    2. Re:I actually don't have a problem with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They already know it. Asshole.

    3. Re:I actually don't have a problem with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Even the most trusted app "Signal" has this same problem.

      Most people apply updates without a second thought. Most people can't understand a changelog let alone a source code diff, so developers just put "Bug fixes".

      Any app can be updated to be not safe, even if it operates safely in 100% encrypted mode today.

    4. Re:I actually don't have a problem with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm 99% certain sure Facebook, Apple, Google etc. already have mechanisms in play for targeted updates when some spook with a NSL walks in. They are just playing hard to get here because the stakes are lower.

    5. Re:I actually don't have a problem with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The government is an out-of-control collective of stupidity and authoritative overreach and can not be trusted. Everybody needs to know that.

  5. Lay police work by Revek · · Score: 1

    Why can't they investigate like they used to. Its just to easy for them to sit on their ass and expect others to solve their problems for them. Just like most every one else these days.

    1. Re:Lay police work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      tech companies should force investigators to use other methods..

    2. Re:Lay police work by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      Well, in their defense, the way the used to do it was to put a tap on a suspect's phone. According to Wikipedia, wiretapping has been around since the 1890s and was first used by the police in 1925.

      So it's not like listening to telephone calls is this brand new thing.

    3. Re: Lay police work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I love the whole rhetoric about communication going âoedarkâ for law enforcement.

      In reality before internet communication technology existed, it was all dark and required surveillance. And that had to be authorized or court mandated. The phone lines were easy enough. Then, they oftentimes illegally, without warrants or authorization took advantage of non-existent security when communications moved to the web for thirty years. Now that security has increased, they are losing their ability to do easy surveillance authorized or not.

      The government making companies create insecure products should have accompanying funds attached for marketing and PR following the fallout and any other funding needed in order to offset losses from people moving to other, more trusted platforms for communications. Also, funds will be required to offset the costs of talent acquisition(employees leaving).

      This is hypocritical considering that the same people seem semi-obsessed about Russian interference in the previous US election and Chinese hackers over the internet which they are trying to destabilize security-wise. Make it as secure as possible and encourage that and a lot of these scandals can be avoided. If you have a backdoor, so can any other foreign power, if they figure out what youâ(TM)ve done.

      The whole election stuff is funny to me actually. I havenâ(TM)t heard anyone complain about the elections themselves being hijacked(voting machines, eg) in relation to Trump. They seem to be complaining that Russians hacked and released real information, even if illegally, about Clinton.

      Well, if itâ(TM)s true, thatâ(TM)s her problem. Americans have minds and judged the information and voted as they willed; thatâ(TM)s democracy. As to whether or not the information is even true, thatâ(TM)s the voterâ(TM)s responsibility to figure out. You canâ(TM)t call it democratic when people make the choices you like and undemocratic when they donâ(TM)t. In a democracy, an election should even be valid if people vote in a tyrant or liar.

    4. Re:Lay police work by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      What is brand new, is easy listening invasions of privacy. Before it took real effort and real resources and that generated constraints. Now nearly everyone, nearly all of the time and done by computers and very carefully and vary selectively edited, to basically stitch anyone up. When wire-tapping like this is done, the full record of all recorded information should be presented in court and heard and seen, not selective edits which will always be extremely misleading. So build up thousands of hours of wire taps, well the court will have to see and hear it all, selectively editing and only presenting a few minutes out of thousands of hours would be extremely misleading and criminally fraudulent activity in court, exactly how far will the go with selective editing and the answer to that, way, way to far. Generate tens of thousands of hours that is then selectively edited because the entire record is the record and not the specifically selected high lights (look no further than movie trailers ie the prosecutor 'here is the trailer for the crimes claimed and nothing else will be presented, this as proof of our great editing skills', definitely not a valid presentation of evidence). Real investment of effort are required to prevent abuse. So need to tap a phone, suck it up, replace the untapped phone with a tapped one, hard but doable and it should be hard. Flipside, demands that all the evidence gathered be actively presented in court heard, seen and read, every single bit of it, regardless of how many thousands of hours it takes.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    5. Re:Lay police work by MrMr · · Score: 1

      Even worse. Why can't they just buy the data fhey need from Facebook? Must be cheaper than going through court.

    6. Re:Lay police work by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Why can't they investigate like they used to. Its just to easy for them to sit on their ass and expect others to solve their problems for them. Just like most every one else these days.

      Because they want to automate search and seizure. This is just the equivalent of tracking everybody using license place scanner, facial scanning, and cell phone location.

    7. Re:Lay police work by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Well, in their defense, the way the used to do it was to put a tap on a suspect's phone. According to Wikipedia, wiretapping has been around since the 1890s and was first used by the police in 1925.

      So it's not like listening to telephone calls is this brand new thing.

      They are still welcome to do that or require Facebook to provide a copy of the data. What they want however is for Facebook to change its system preventing end-to-end encryption.

  6. Also lazy by ancientt · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The courts have the authority to compel people to testify and the authority to come into a place of business and gather evidence. I don't think it would be much of a stretch to force a company to allow government employees to alter code. That could happen and it should be something that is argued strenuously in the courts.

    This kind of compulsion goes far beyond any reasonable argument. It's one thing to say the government can gather evidence or even take action in a private company. It's a whole different thing to try to compel a private citizen, or company who employs private citizens, to write software that goes against their best interest. It's really just tyranny, and lazy tyranny at that.

    --
    B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
    1. Re:Also lazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The USA has been a tyranny since it banned men from taking cute female children as brides...
      and then forced that decision on the rest of humanity aswell.

      The USA deserves to be eradicated.
      It is an evil system, at war with the law of YHWH.

    2. Re:Also lazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The courts have the authority to compel people to testify and the authority to come into a place of business and gather evidence. I don't think it would be much of a stretch to force a company to allow government employees to alter code.

      We are fast coming to a time where simple digital signatures are not enough, since the signers can be compromised or compelled. Perhaps code should be something like this for stuff you really trust.

      1. open source, with the exact version used in a build documented.
      2. anyone can take that source and convert it to the exact same binary.
      3. The original version is signed not just by the normal signers, but also by several others used by unfriendly governments throughout the world.
      4. Verification is possible by checking the digital signatures. If they don't all agree, figure out who is being bad, but don't use the software until you resolve it.

      Now I've no idea how facebook's app works, but if I wanted secure communications, I probably wouldn't use an app developed by a social media company.... Beyond that, well you have to be sure what you have is what you think you have, hence the previous...

    3. Re:Also lazy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Govs should require mfgs to alter guns so they can't shoot cops...

      That is to say: alter messenger so it's not secure = ruining what little value the product had.

    4. Re:Also lazy by Agripa · · Score: 1

      The courts have the authority to compel people to testify and the authority to come into a place of business and gather evidence. I don't think it would be much of a stretch to force a company to allow government employees to alter code. That could happen and it should be something that is argued strenuously in the courts.

      This kind of compulsion goes far beyond any reasonable argument. It's one thing to say the government can gather evidence or even take action in a private company. It's a whole different thing to try to compel a private citizen, or company who employs private citizens, to write software that goes against their best interest. It's really just tyranny, and lazy tyranny at that.

      I assume the government is arguing that it is covered by the All Writs Act.

  7. Better Option by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Prevent users from using Facebook Messenger.

    Pop up a window saying:
    "Due to a request from the US Government to secretly crack the encryption in this app, we are suspending its operation until such time as we deem it safe for our users to continue using.
    Please contact your [Congress Person] (click to find yours) if this worries you."

    Then watch the government dial that shit back really fast.

  8. Must be the Russians again.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only a fascist, totalitarian, no-good government or the likes would be behind something as reprehensible as this. /s

  9. Possibly just a coincidence... by MrKevvy · · Score: 1

    ... but about ten times until a few months ago, every single time that my Facebook Messenger app. updated, Telegram updated at the same time. Could they be the same or at least based on the same code? There is certainly no shortage of apps. that Facebook has bought and integrated.

    If Messenger is actually a rebranded Telegram, then unless Facebook has the source code, Telegram has already refused to co-operate with these requests, and has been banned in a few countries (ie Russia and Pakistan) for this. And if Messenger is compromised, then Telegram would become suspect as well.

    --
    -- Insert witty one-liner here. --
    1. Re:Possibly just a coincidence... by dyfet · · Score: 1

      Any source secret "secure" communication application that updates has this risk even if initially safe...

  10. Good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If this is what it takes to win the war against the biased liberal media than this is what they shuld do. Its obvious to anyone with a brain that the medis is anti-trump so they are probably going to get caught coluding with the Clinton and Soros people which is only reason they oppose this actions.

  11. No sarcasm here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You're describing exactly what the U.S. population decided they wanted two years ago. They wanted a totalitarian fascist for president, they got one.

    43% of republicans said in a survey that they approve giving the POTUS the power to shut down any news outlet he wishes. If you have even a rudimentary knowledge of history, you know that that's how many totalitarian regimes started. Although that would be a clear violation of the 1st amendment, they know it, but they don't care. These republicans no longer care about the constitution, the bill of rights (except their f..king 2nd amendment of course), or even democracy. They would be perfectly fine having a totalitarian regime, as long as it was a conservative totalitarian regime.

    The true ennemy of the U.S. is not the press, or Russia, or China, or muslims, illegal immigrants, etc. It is THESE republicans, those who are ready to destroy freedom and democracy. They are traitors to the nation.

    1. Re: No sarcasm here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those âoenewsâ outlets are the enemy of the people of this great nation. This is something every single warm blooded American has known but people were too asleep to speak up. Our great President, Trump, has given us our voice back and has shown us the way forward. Why are you speaking against common sense and rationality? Do you not want whats best for humanity?

      You sound an awful lot like a traitor to me, and I cannot wait till people like that are rounded up and sent to a camp someplace.

    2. Re:No sarcasm here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am the AC that you replied to. I actually agree with you on pretty much everything. I am surprised to find that you are someone that seems to come from the left. A rare, but good deviation from the norm. Still, you are barking up the wrong tree trying to blame the only the republicans and not the democrats. They are all part of the problem. They are all traitors to our founding principles. If we really want to rid ourselves of all this shit, then we need to come together and make a third party possible. It is the only way out. As things stand right now, the media and elites will never allow this to happen. Expect more division and corrosion of the founding principles my left-leaning brother. I am tired and only comment in threads where I get modded down these days.

    3. Re: No sarcasm here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't wait until all the people who use apple products that produce crazy characters in the forum feeds get rounded up and put in their own special place with their own special isolated network.

  12. Seriously by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 1

    What self respecting nefarious type monologues their " evil plan " over Facebook Messenger ?!
    ( or any online Social Media platform for that matter )

    The ultimate shame in the underworld is to get caught and put in prison KNOWING THAT MARK ZUCKERBERG helped make it happen :|

  13. Protocol a must! by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    All surveillance requests for Facebook must be routed through the Kremlin for approval.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  14. In contempt by Archfeld · · Score: 2

    So the court is going to hold Facebook in contempt, just like the rest of us. The court is also going to throw 'Facebook' in jail ? Which peon is going to take the fall for the corp ? Can't Facebook just claim the its' 4th amendment right are being violated, or go with the ever popular 5th amendment protection because it might be considered a member of a conspiracy after the fact ?

    --
    errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
    1. Re:In contempt by rojash · · Score: 1

      Peon and 4th amendment in the same para ?? Where r u from dude

    2. Re:In contempt by Archfeld · · Score: 1

      Good Ol USA here. I am part indigenous American Aboriginal and part Welsh sand hog. One side of my family has been here for a long time and the other for a few generations, but both sides are familiar with the term and concept of peon or indentured.

      --
      errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
    3. Re:In contempt by rojash · · Score: 1

      Should've guessed; but sometimes using pure-english terms confuses the heck outta the locals :)

    4. Re:In contempt by Agripa · · Score: 1

      So the court is going to hold Facebook in contempt, just like the rest of us. The court is also going to throw 'Facebook' in jail ? Which peon is going to take the fall for the corp ? Can't Facebook just claim the its' 4th amendment right are being violated, or go with the ever popular 5th amendment protection because it might be considered a member of a conspiracy after the fact ?

      The court holding Facebook in contempt is actually required for Facebook to contest the order. The same thing happened in the Apple case. Without being held in contempt, Facebook has no further standing to challenge the order.

  15. Anyone using Facebook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    really cannot blame anyone for their lack of security as goes making their personal data available. I will never have a Facebook account, shadow or otherwise. I enter my name in Google or other search engines and I do not appear. This has been carefully cultivated. I saw this coming back in the late 90s as an IT security guy doing pen testing and security audits. I warned people then and no one listened. I tell people all the time, use strong encryption. Hell, use ProtonMail between yourselves. It's easy and you don't have to set anything up. Set your iPhone to delete after 10 tries. Use a 12+ iPhone alphanumeric passcode. Don't post your life online unless you want it to come back to haunt you. Everything you post in your name is there forever. In multiple places.

    I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I do know of many, many people who have undergone terrible scrutiny for "innocent" things that were posted online. What many people do not know is that for certain jobs, particularly jobs in IT security or anything with a security clearance, they WILL do a background check on Internet habits, to include logs. Yes, this happened to me back in the day when I was going through my initial assessments to determine my trustworthiness to be in the security industry and have access to certain information. I was alarmed at what was included in the background check. Warning: social media is dangerous and stupid. Anything that needs to be said can be said via encrypted text or encrypted email.

  16. Yawn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So Facebook Messenger which is a shitty app for a shitty privacy-sucking Zuckerberg anus of a social cancer gets jacked. Meanwhile anyone who is planning terror acts or human trafficking or whatever is not going to be using Facebook to communicate about it. If they do, then the only logical conclusion is that they donâ(TM)t mind if their things are public. Kind of like Hollywood retards who take nude pictures of themselves and store them in their iCloud account, and never bother to set a real PIN/password must be cool with them all being published in The Fappening. Otherwise they would have set a password.

    And go easy on the wine there, @JenniferLawrence.

  17. Can I rename Alexa to Wiretap? by pslytely+psycho · · Score: 1

    We are already sliding down that slippery slope, and we've gone too far to stop the slide. As soon as they convinced us to all carry our wiretaps around with us, voluntarily, it was over.
    This is just the final push to control the last few things they can't (yet) tap effectively.
    The fears of our youth are now the realities of our daily lives.

    https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/a3MzOb5_700b.jpg

    Hmm, can't make auto link work.

    --
    Donald Trump, on a crusade to make Nixon look respectable
  18. Please speak slowly and distinctly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    as indicated in the revised TOS

  19. Almost all criminals are STUPID by Bruce66423 · · Score: 1

    It's why they get caught in the first place. And, to be fair, the knowledge required to discover a secure alternative isn't trivial.

    1. Re:Almost all criminals are STUPID by easyTree · · Score: 1

      If they were smart, criminals would join the 'authority' team so they could commit horrific crimes 'in the name of freedom, security and democracy.'

  20. Can anybody say CALEA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is the end result of the misguided concept of "Net Neutrality", treating publishing platforms and data networks as telecoms. So much for free as in beer. The tim e to object to all this was long ago, but, hey, that was crazy talk back then. when "Dragnet" cooperation might have seemed reasonable, at least when not coerced. Not so much now with the Chinafication of both the 'net and government in the US. PS. somebody please explain to our well-meaning but sometimes misguided President what freedom of the press actually means. Couch it in terms of "he who pays the piper, etc." Maybe he'll understand then. Meantime the expulsion of "right wing conservative conspiracy theorists" may provide the impetus to push distributed social media into the mainstream, at least until Wall Street and the VCs find a way to monetize it and bring it back into the same fold as the BIg Tech platforms.

  21. Re: CALEA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When the fuck are you going realize the difference between internet service providers (the hard connection) and content providers (the data traveling over that connection). Net neutrality is all about regulating "service" providers, so that they don't pick and choose other content over your content. All data treated equally over the hard connection.

    Facebook is not an ISP. They provide content.

  22. Re:In contempt..backward logic by Archfeld · · Score: 1

    Other than simply not complying you mean ?

    --
    errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
  23. Re:In contempt..backward logic by Agripa · · Score: 1

    No, I mean warrants and the use of the All Writs Act are done ex parte so nobody has standing to contest them in court. If the subject (not Facebook) wants to contest them, they have to argue that the evidence should be suppressed later and Facebook is not the one being charged so they cannot do that; Facebook is just a third party.

    Instead, in order to gain standing to contest the court order, Facebook *must* be found in contempt which means not following it. Apple had to do the same thing.

  24. Re:In contempt..backward logic by Archfeld · · Score: 1

    Ahh I get what you mean now. Thanks for the info.

    --
    errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?