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Russia Thinks Someone With a Drill Caused the Recent ISS Air Leak (arstechnica.com)
Last week, NASA discovered a small pressure leak on the International Space Station. U.S. and Russian crew members managed to trace the leak to a 2mm breach in the orbital module of the Soyuz MS-09 vehicle and patch it with epoxy. The drama might have ended there, as it was initially presumed that the breach had been caused by a tiny bit of orbital debris, but Russian news outlets are reporting that the problem was a manufacturing defect. "It remains unclear whether the hole was an accidental error or intentional," reports Ars Technica. "There is evidence that a technician saw the drilling mistake and covered the hole with glue, which prevented the problem from being detected during a vacuum test."
"We are able to narrow down the cause to a technological mistake of a technician. We can see the mark where the drill bit slid along the surface of the hull," Dmitry Rogozin, head of the Russian space agency Roscosmos, told RIA Novosti. "We want to find out the full name of who is at fault -- and we will." From the report: NASA spokesman Dan Huot, based in Houston where the space station program is managed, deferred all comment on the issue to Roscosmos. The spacecraft was manufactured by Energia, a Russian corporation. A former employee of the company who is now a professor at Moscow State University told another Russian publication that these kinds of incidents have occurred before at Energia. "I have conducted investigations of all kinds of spacecraft, and after landing, we discovered a hole drilled completely through the hull of a re-entry module," the former Energia employee, Viktor Minenko, said in Gazeta.RU. "But the technician didn't report the defect to anyone but sealed up the hole with epoxy. We found the person, and after a commotion he was terminated," said Minenko. In this case, the technician used glue instead of epoxy. As the Soyuz hull is made from an aluminum alloy, it could have been properly repaired on Earth by welding, had the technician reported the mistake.
"We are able to narrow down the cause to a technological mistake of a technician. We can see the mark where the drill bit slid along the surface of the hull," Dmitry Rogozin, head of the Russian space agency Roscosmos, told RIA Novosti. "We want to find out the full name of who is at fault -- and we will." From the report: NASA spokesman Dan Huot, based in Houston where the space station program is managed, deferred all comment on the issue to Roscosmos. The spacecraft was manufactured by Energia, a Russian corporation. A former employee of the company who is now a professor at Moscow State University told another Russian publication that these kinds of incidents have occurred before at Energia. "I have conducted investigations of all kinds of spacecraft, and after landing, we discovered a hole drilled completely through the hull of a re-entry module," the former Energia employee, Viktor Minenko, said in Gazeta.RU. "But the technician didn't report the defect to anyone but sealed up the hole with epoxy. We found the person, and after a commotion he was terminated," said Minenko. In this case, the technician used glue instead of epoxy. As the Soyuz hull is made from an aluminum alloy, it could have been properly repaired on Earth by welding, had the technician reported the mistake.
Not sure if dysphemism for "fired", or ...
Was it James bond in disguise, drilled a hole and covered it by glue on purpose..so that it fails in orbit
I am pretty sure that terminated in Russia is not a good thing.
It's funny how I make sense to others and not myself...
... "We can see the mark where the drill bit "...
Which country makes the most of drill bits in this world ?
... "We want to find out the full name of who is at fault" ...
China !
The reason there are issues because people fear losing their jobs if they report a mistake of their own doing. It happens at some companies that don't realize that a mistake is part of normal business operations and thusly an expected cost.
They should find the person that did this and interview him and then hold his management responsible.
Traditional Russian acts of courage and character: 1. Topple a Tatar on a horse before he burns Moscow, without any weapons. 2. Wrestle with a tiger, shirtless 3. Caviar and vodka 4. Travel to space with a holey space craft.
"Dmitry Rogozin, head of the Russian space agency Roscosmos, told RIA Novost "We want to find out the full name of who is at fault -- and we will."
Facepalm! Dmitry Rogozin is at fault, you nitwit.
The problem is that the workers were afraid to admit a mistake and get it fixed - to the point that they'd rather jeopardize the mission by hiding the mistake than acknowledge an error. So this jackass responds with "we will find out the full name of the person [and then ...]". That attitude IS the problem, dummy. To fix the problem, your statement would need to be "we want to find out why workers are afraid to acknowledge errors and fix the organizational culture so that errors can be acknowledged and fixed properly, rather than hidden."
"We want to find out the full name of who is at fault -- and we will."
Reminds me of the old joke of Putin allegedly saying "If we had search WMDs in Iraq, we would have found some!"
Like every good programmer knows, if you're searching for something, put one of the thing you search at the end of your dataset yourself so your program terminates correctly.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Welcome to the wonderful world of Soviet indoctrination. The system is flawless. The problem is the human in the system. We need to eliminate the problem.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
This is simply evidence of the incompetence of the Russian state itself. Roskosmos was re-nationalized in 2016, after experiencing quality control problems so severe they led to launch failures. This extends beyond Rogozin as director since he was deputy under Popovkin who also had problems with launches.
The problem is the structure of Russian culture, far beyond this incident being caused by just issue of management philosophy. Putin's culture is one of death, murder, and widespread terrorism directly conducted by Putin himself against the idea of human rights, and against Russia as enemy #1 with the rest of the world as enemy #2. Certainly the claims of sabotage will lead to Russia blaming every other country involved with the ISS.
The Soviet Union hasn't existed for nearly 30 years now, dude.
And how old do you think the heads of the space program are? Unless they're 35 or younger, they were indoctrinated by that very system.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
What do you suggest? That people who make mistakes are not punished? If that's your solution then people will stop caring about their jobs, they will make more and more mistakes, and finishing a project without flaws will become impossible. People who make mistakes should accept to be punished, and if they can't accept that, meaning if they try to hide their mistakes, they should be punished even more. Rogozin did exactly what any good manager should do.
As a Finn with a couple Russian friends who've left their country because of 'organisational culture' let me give you some perspective. This is Putin's ' Novorossiya' where transparency is nonexistent and those who fail to satisfy the powers that be are thrown into jail in the best case, get into mysterious accidents or commit 'suicides' in the worst case. The space program is a key component in the cold war (which never really ended, it's just changed its nature to be less about armed conflict and more about information warfare) propaganda just as it was in the past, and as such it is of great importance to Kremlin. Whoever made the mistake is not afraid of getting fired, because getting fired is the least of your concerns in this situation. If I were him, I'd already be on my way out of the country and never drink any tea I haven't prepared myself..
The problem is not the the organisational culture of Roscosmos, the problem is the organisational culture of the entire State Meet the new boss, same as the old boss:
"Enemies are right in front of you, you are at war with them, then you make an armistice with them, and all is clear. A traitor must be destroyed, crushed."
-Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin in 2001, speaking to journalist Aleksei Venediktov, to whom he added “You know, Aleksei, you are not a traitor. You are an enemy.” (source: David Remnick, “Echo in the Dark,” in The New Yorker, September 22, 2008)
This is why seeing Trump act like Vlad's obedient little lapdog earlier in the summer here in Helsinki was one of the most absurd things I have ever witnessed in my life. Had you told me ten years ago that you're from the future where the fucking president of the US of A bows down to kiss the ring of Putin and call the European Union a foe, I'd have told you to go get your head checked. Yet here we are. My grandfather who's in his 80s said to me after the press conference that he thinks the Russians are winning, because 'one of the guys is a former KGB agent, and the other is a clueless goof.' Although grandpa is no political scientist, I have a hard time disagreeing with him here.
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
Which one do you think is better:
1. Ensure zero mistakes are made, by punishing people who make mistakes, and by other means, or
2. Create a culture where mistakes that are made are correctly reported and dealt with?
Hint: The first one is not possible, because perfection is impossible.
The mistakes should of course be minimized, and intentional incorrect actions, like sabotage, should of course be punished. Of course, you can argue that not reporting a mistake is an intentional incorrect action, but this could be avoided by choosing wisely how mistakes are dealt with. So paradoxally, trying to push for zero mistakes by punishment, you're actually 1) not necessarily reducing mistakes, and 2) additionally causing intentional incorrect actions, thus making the situation worse. If you're a manager, I hope you take some time to consider this.
People make mistakes all the time. The only person who makes no mistakes is a person who does nothing.
So if you punish mistakes, the solution people will come up with is to do nothing. Which will make finishing a project also completely impossible.
Paskapuhetta.
Trump ei oo mikän rüssien juoksupoika.
Vladimir on demokraatien hyva ystäva. Sinjoore Bill Clinton puhui satojen tuhansien dollarien edestä Moskovassa "hionoille herrille ekonomiasta". Ja madame Clinton sai satoja miljooneja dollareita Moskovasta uraanikompanijan myyntirahoja.
To fix the problem, your statement would need to be "we want to find out why workers are afraid to acknowledge errors and fix the organizational culture so that errors can be acknowledged and fixed properly, rather than hidden."
While I agree with you, you're presupposing that the drilling was accidental and not intentional. If he has reason to believe that it's intentional then his reaction is correct.
go bite off putins cock
Ahahahah... You know Ivan, your propaganda shitposting would be far more effective if your Finnish didn't sound like it came from a 40s black and white movie (no-one in modern Finnish uses the words 'sinjoore' or 'madame' for example) and riddled with typos (you're missing almost every single ä and ö there, and ryssä is written with a y and not a ü which is not even used in the entire language at all you dimwit).
But ladies and gentlemen of Slashdot: if you had any doubts prior to this point that the Russian trollboys are patrolling this site actively, I give you exhibit A: a dude writing about the Clintons in archaic and misspelled Finnish that clearly does not come through Google translate to try and pass as a native..I mean, A for effort, F for execution man.
These guys reply to me as ACs almost every single time I mention Putin in any way here, it's almost kinda endearing, like having a sort of pet. You know Ivan, I don't blame you. Work is hard to find in the current shit economy of Russia, and at least you get an indoors work-environment, hopefully decent pay and bonus points for being an obedient little trooper in the Motherlands fight against 'The West. If you ever end up in here, we can go and have a cup of coffee or tea, and don't worry, I'll bring my own Geiger counter. ;)
Until we meet again, comrade!
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
If only Glavset paid better then they could get better talent.
The Soviet Union hasn't existed for nearly 30 years now, dude.
It's back. With communism replaced by fascism, but these two are so similar it's window dressing.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Well, that and the unique attribute of Fascism is the skin head culture (no need to shave actual heads, just live every day by xenophobic hate alone) and the use of its Russian version by Putin for his own murderous campaigns.
This is simply evidence of the incompetence of the Russian state itself. Roskosmos was re-nationalized in 2016, after experiencing quality control problems so severe they led to launch failures. This extends beyond Rogozin as director since he was deputy under Popovkin who also had problems with launches. The problem is the structure of Russian culture, far beyond this incident being caused by just issue of management philosophy. Putin's culture is one of death, murder, and widespread terrorism directly conducted by Putin himself against the idea of human rights, and against Russia as enemy #1 with the rest of the world as enemy #2. Certainly the claims of sabotage will lead to Russia blaming every other country involved with the ISS.
Notice that this failure was really due to Putin's culture of terrorism in Russia. His culture means it will be blamed on someone who will die, and then used against the ISS contributors in general.
You know how Russia ended up with Putin? Remember Yeltsin? Remember how we interfered with the 1996 Russian election and altered the result? Yeltsin was in the single digits before the Americans got involved.
You know what happened next? The US financial "experts" pushed Yeltsin to introduce neo-liberal shock therapy economics to the new Russian Federation. Ended up crashing the economy and leaving more in poverty then ever before. The number of people living in poverty in the former Soviet Republics rose from 14 million in 1989 to 147 million in 1998. As a result of the 1998 financial collapse and the devaluation of the ruble, the life savings of tens of millions of Russian families disappeared overnight. In the period from 1992 to 1998 Russia's GDP fell by half - something that did not happen even under during the German invasion in the Second World War.
Under Yeltsin's tenure, the death rate in Russia reached wartime levels. Accidents, food poisoning, exposure, heart attacks, lack of access to basic healthcare, and an epidemic of suicides - they all played a role. David Satter, a senior fellow at the anti-communist, Washington DC-based Hudson Institute, writing in the conservative Wall Street Journal, described the consequences of this victory of Democracy: "Western and Russian demographers now agree that between 1992 and 2000, the number of 'surplus deaths' in Russia - deaths that cannot be explained on the basis of previous trends - was between five and six million persons."
This secured Putin as a savior to Russians when he reversed it, and soured Russian public opinion to the US.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
It's so sad/funny to know that the top comment describing the one and only right thing to do will just remain here, hidden in the comments section.
0x or or snor perron?!
"Dmitry Rogozin, head of the Russian space agency Roscosmos, told RIA Novost "We want to find out the full name of who is at fault -- and we will."
Facepalm! Dmitry Rogozin is at fault, you nitwit.
The problem is that the workers were afraid to admit a mistake and get it fixed - to the point that they'd rather jeopardize the mission by hiding the mistake than acknowledge an error. So this jackass responds with "we will find out the full name of the person [and then ...]". That attitude IS the problem, dummy. To fix the problem, your statement would need to be "we want to find out why workers are afraid to acknowledge errors and fix the organizational culture so that errors can be acknowledged and fixed properly, rather than hidden."
That kind of attitude is incompatible with 'come down on them like a ton of bricks' management methods and the right wing enforcers who run Russia on behalf of the oligarchs love that crap.
It was Victoria Nuland, former Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the United States Department of State, who said "fuck the EU." She was nominated by Obama. You remember Obama, the same man who bugged Merkel's phone? The US regarding EU as a foe didn't start with Trump.
Who can blame Obama for his views? What do you call people who rip you off on trade to the tune of $150 billion every year? The EU is a security free-rider that exploits American generosity to run a massive trade surplus. For a continent flush with cash and a large budget surplus, every member should be able to spend an adequate amount on its own defense. The EU needs to create its own collective defense treaty without US involvement.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
More Random Bullshit? The solution to the Putin Problem is the elimination of his security forces without hesitation. That involves the support of EU armies against Russia, and the direct provision of armaments to both Ukraine and the Free Syria rebels against Assad and Putin. Guess what is already happening, or are you not aware of PESCO since your news is filtered for you in St. Petersburg?
I've been a Slashdot commenter since this was a newfangled "weblog" called Chips & Bits. If you'd like to have an argument, you can try to refute what I said. Calling me a dirty foreigner and spewing whataboutism isn't an argument.
Putin is in power today because of the Western neoliberals who dynamited the Russian economy, caused mass deaths, and tampered in an election. More info: http://www.globalresearch.ca/u...
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
When I first read the headline, I thought it was going to be some story about Putin thinking someone drilled a hole into the hull (while in space) to sabotage the ISS.
So, your genius solution is to start a war with a nuclear power. What a great idea that will totally not end horribly.
I love your idea of the "EU armies". If they existed, that might be a good idea.
You're aware the "Free Syria" rebels are head-chopping Islamists? Al-Nusra? You certainly are getting a bizarre, filtered form of news if you don't know this. To anyone else reading, a quick video: https://youtu.be/y1oEoCRkLRI?t...
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Mistakes by themselves shouldn't be punished. They are the consequence of something, and that something should be dealt with.
It may involve punishing the employee, for example if the employee refused to follow a procedure, he may be punished for that, but not for the mistake itself. And even in that case, one should investigate why the procedure wasn't followed. Maybe it is simply impossible to follow, or that it is too time consuming for the stated goals.
Or it can be that the employee simply does the job poorly, but then again, why? Maybe he is just bad and he should get fired but for poor performance rather than for the mistake itself. But it may be because he just needs training.
If you just punish employees for their mistakes without going for the root cause you may end up firing loads of perfectly good employees and not fix anything. For example if the issue is caused by a manager giving tasks to untrained employees, he is the problem, not the guy holding the drill.
Wow. How insightful. Turns out that no one is responsible for their bad deeds, right? (and equally no one can be responsible for their good deeds, right?) There will always be someone else to blame in your world.
He'll blame the jews.
Apparently it's more insightful than you can handle. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Look at the outcome.
In your world, which apparently is the same as this guy with the drill lives in, "people are held responsible for their mistakes", i.e gets severely enough punished for them to make trying to hide them preferable to fessing up.
The result is now a multi-billion spacecraft in orbit with a hole in it, instead of a patch. That's just brilliant, innit? A pinnacle of successful management, if I ever saw one.
I can clearly see you're management material marked for great successes.
This is simply evidence of the incompetence of the Russian state itself. Roskosmos was re-nationalized in 2016, after experiencing quality control problems so severe they led to launch failures. This extends beyond Rogozin as director since he was deputy under Popovkin who also had problems with launches. The problem is the structure of Russian culture, far beyond this incident being caused by just issue of management philosophy. Putin's culture is one of death, murder, and widespread terrorism directly conducted by Putin himself against the idea of human rights, and against Russia as enemy #1 with the rest of the world as enemy #2. Certainly the claims of sabotage will lead to Russia blaming every other country involved with the ISS.
This is still the truth, no matter how many Russian paid trolls with mod points try to hide it from general viewing.
Your source: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/G... (It's not a good one)
NO NO NO NO NO
It could NOT have been repaired on Earth by welding.
DO NOT EVER UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES EVEN THINK about repairing stressed aluminum by welding. Once aluminum has been fatigued, welding only damages and weakens it further.
A spinning drill bit that ultimately caused a hole would have certainly yielded the aluminum in the immediate vicinity, and attempting to weld it only would have made it weaker.
YOU CANNOT FIX BROKEN ALUMINUM WITH WELDING..
For the love of Pete, are you trying to get someone killed, besides the guy who covered this up?
Fellow had better change his name and get a food tester ...
So you contrast a phone call on Youtube that I cannot even in any way verify to be from the actual people you claim it to be from, to the sitting president of the US openly calling the European Union an enemy. How the hell does that make any sense? The Union and the US have had their disagreements in the past as well and no-one is denying that, but geopolitically speaking the alliance between the continents has been strong ever since the 2nd world war, and the Trump era marks a clear shift in this policy. This is obvious to anyone who follows global politics even at a cursory level.
Uhm.... people that the Americans like buying stuff from? I mean, no-one's forcing Americans to buy European cars and other stuff, but you guys seem to like it. I thought you of all people would understand this, since you've been the nr. 1 proponent of free trade for decades, and are the world's second largest export economy after China.
The idea that everyone needs to be trading the exact same amount with everyone else lest someone is getting 'ripped off' is ridiculous. It's called trade because your exchanging money for goods and services that you want-
I agree that European defense spending overall is too low. The collapse of the soviet union lulled many into a false sense of security and defense spending was cut in many places. However at the same time calling it 'exploitation' as if the US did not have their own interests in mind with their defense spending here is misleading to say the least. That is, to say that the US is doing this out of sheer generosity and not because global stability is something you also benefit from is twisting the truth. You have troops and based all over the world because of this, and no-one's forced you to do that, you've done it out of your own volition after the last world war presumably because you don't fancy a new one, and neither do we.
Moreover, 150 billion represents ~1/rth of the total US defense spending. I did some googling and according to this your defense spending in Europe is about 5 % of your total defense budget, which comes down to about 30 billion. That's still a lot obviously, but even if that were to be eliminated entirely we'd still be running a surplus.
That being said, European defense spending has been on the rise for a few years now, since before Trump.
Agreed. This is also why we're not in NATO and are actually paying for our own defense. However note that this does not mean NATO should be done away with. Defense spending needs to be increased, for numerous reasons of which Russia is only one but that still doesn't mean we shouldn't be allied with the US, because of all the major players out there in the field of geopolitics, the US is far closer to EU in terms of values and policies than say, China or Russia.
Agreed again, and that's now beginning. You must understand that since the EU is a trade zone and not a federation, EU-wide defense co-operation has been a difficult subject because any notion of an 'EU army' is often perceived as a step towards federalization and that's something that the majority of people do not like, s
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
Wait, WHAT?
How you construe the OP's text as an apology of Putin just... baffles me. Either I can't read or you can't. I assume second.
I can't completely agree with this. While mistakes can/will/do happen, there are different degrees of mistakes, and you can't call them all equal. They range from "that outcome was essentially completely impossible to have foreseen or predicted" to "gross negligence". At one end you have "freak accident" and at the other end you have "incompetence".
I agree that people should not be fired for (or fear being fired for) accidents, but gross negligence / incompetence should be a firing offense. This should intensify when the mistake has a significant risk of loss of life or significant property damage, or where there were numerous protocols and procedures in place to prevent it that were all bypassed to allow the mistake to occur.
Drilling a hole in a space ship could certainly lead to loss of life or severe damage. I would HOPE there were significant procedures in place for determining where to make holes. I wonder why the problem was not caught by independent inspection after the work also. I realize there was a pressure test, but that's a very general final test for the entire product, and if you're going to be compromising the hull during production (for holes that need to be there) then that work should be inspected visually by someone other than the worker after the work is done, and not be relying solely on the pressure test at the end to make sure nobody messed up in the last six months somewhere.
Given that this mistake could be successfully covered up by a bit of epoxy, it seems fairly safe to assume that they were insuring quality by threat of termination rather than by rigorous post-inspection, which is a process that more strongly encourages cover-up of mistakes. If that's the case, you have created a culture where cover-up is an option worth considering, which can only be fixed by making serious changes to your manufacturing and vetting processes. "Cover-up" should never be an option worth considering when lives are on the line.
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
n/t
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
SlashDot is an international forum. Please speak English.
-> I dislike sigs...
Their best engineers understand they have the worst manufacturing in the world. That's why everything they make is big, ugly, but it always works.
Welcome to the wonderful world of Soviet indoctrination. The system is flawless. The problem is the human in the system. We need to eliminate the problem.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
You correctly point out that early-90s privatisation in Russian was an economic disaster. The way it was conducted, ownership accrued to a small number of insiders, who promptly stashed their wealth overseas.
(Compare with China, which has privatised more gradually and much more successfully, judging from its economic growth. Rich Chinese still buy property abroad, but are mostly not so rich that they plan to emigrate, so the majority of the wealth stays inside the country.)
But did Putin do anything to change this? The Russian economy stayed privatised; no businesses were renationalised. It recovered over the 2000s during a time of high prices for the commodities it exported. Throw in examples like Hungary, which also crashed due to privatisation in the early 1990s, but recovered strongly afterwards, and it looks like an abrupt transition to a market economy is painful, but the performance improves markedly in the long term.
Really? And just where did Putin and his cronies come from?
I cited Time magazine (with the cover bragging about the fact we altered the electoral results), the Hudson Institute, Wall Street Journal, and Cato Institute. Got anything else? I guess those six million Russians are still alive somewhere? I guess we really didn't ruin Russia's economy by collaborating with their oligarchs? The same oligarchs that Putin crushed when he got into office? Face it, we created him. Of it wouldn't have been Putin it would have been someone else.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Yep, the U.S. is responsible for Russia's problems. Putin is an enlightened civil servant and Russia would be a paradise were it not for the naughty U.S. casting a baleful eye in its direction.
In other news, down is up, Trump is smart, the law of gravity is merely a suggestion.
I'm not saying it was aliens, but it was aliens. Proof Positive: A talking head on TV.
And this is why Trump wants a space force -- Space Alien Terrorists. Or Astronaut Terrorists, same thing, just inside out. OR: an ISS Astronaut is actually an ALIEN -- that's even worse, They're Already Here.
First they travel here to get our technology, then our women, and then our water. We're in trouble!
If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
Drills don't cause air leaks, people do.
... Soyuz drills hole in you!
Add in extremely tiresome and complicated processes to document the mistake, the actions taken, who approved the repairs, who inspected the repairs, etc. One could generate a small book on welding a hole if one desired. If required to do so, one might consider patching it with something readilly available and not telling anyone. Making it easy to report errors, document the corrective actions, and track them is the best way. If management is not aware that problems are occuring as employees are fixing them off-book, they can't change anything to lessen the rate of the problems. They may amke changes that increase the rate of problems and pat themselves on the back as costs are reduced without impact to measured performance criteria.
The punishment is for the cover-up and allowing a system to be launched into space with a life-threatening defect.
Punishing people for disclosing defects is stupid. Punishing people for failing to disclose defects needs to be severe. The whole project was jeopardized. Lives were jeopardized.
It's also entirely possible that checks and balances were missed by the guy who made the mistake in the first place.
Clearly, in hindsight, this individual is incompetent and immoral. Not because they messed up a hole.
By that line of reasoning, Al Queda operatives should go around making sarcastic comments that American's should "just get over it" on the subject of 911. American Exceptionalists are, and always have been, a million megatons of bullshit crammed into a five pound sack.
Uh huh. You have any basis for that, or is this kneejerk anti-Russian hatorade?
"I drilled a hole in another space station!"
Some drunk with a tremor at the assembling line.
You might want to read up on the history of skinheads. Especially some of the older skins might be a trifle miffed if you lump them in with the far right.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Seriously, this is weird that somebody would make such a mistake and not report it. I just wonder if maybe it was debris, but simply resembles a drill? However, if they have glue on the inside, than not.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Hahaha, Russia's "economy" always was self-dynamiting. Always was a backwards fucked up country that couldn't get communism nor capitalism right. Don't blame others for your perpetual failings.
Defense from who? NATO destroyed Libya, and some of it's member nations were behind the destructions of Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan. It's the rest of the world that needs defense from the United States and its poodles, not the other way around.
Do you even have a brain stored away somewhere, or is that dirty cavity in your head your claim to having one? A mistake was made. It was swept under the rug. Why was it hidden away? Because the one who made it was too scared to admit to it and fess up so it could be dealt with. It's called a rational, coherent explanation with a high probability of being what actually happened.
It's the same story everywhere where there are heavy punishments for simple mistakes; People will do anything to hide their goofs - and goof people will, because as already the Romans noted, "It's human to err" - because the consequences of getting caught goofing is so dire that hiding it and hoping that nobody notices, or perhaps getting the chance to put the blame on someone else is a much more attractive alternative than fessing up.
The only other explanation which would fit would be outright sabotage, but that's exceedingly unlikely and squarely puts the burden of proof on the shoulders of anyone who would make such allegations.
Sigh. You idiots don't seem to comprehend that hole is too tiny to be a serious problem. A person who wanted to make a serious problem would not have done that. The ISS will be fine.
Well, I think it's the best comment about the issue.
No lives were jeapordized by the tiny hole, you drama queen. The ISS can have bigger holes from micrometeors and they would be repaired too.
> The Soviet Union hasn't existed for nearly 30 years now
Russian president Vlad Putin has stated on national TV that he considers disintegration of the USSR to be the most tragic mistake in human history. He is actively working to recreate a neo-USSR, annex Ukraine, re-enslave the former satellite states like Hungary, etc.
Not sure if dysphemism for "fired", or ...
In Russia that's not an entirely idle question. Most probably it just means fired from their job but not with 100% certainty. I can show you unambiguous examples of people literally ending up in rivers or "having a car crash" after causing problems for those in positions of power. After the recent sports doping scandals there are numerous people who ended up dead under circumstances that can only be described as suspicious at best. I'm not implying anything terrible happened or that Russia is a terrible place but it's not even a question that terminated could have the other meaning in the right circumstances in that particular country. Just like the US, Russia has some rough edges here and there.
Not arguing with what you have said I just would like you to remember that there were many countries in the same situation as Russia, going through the same transition as Russia, which did not end up this way (practically the whole eastern block).
Russia has so vast resources of almost everything (including know-how and highly educated people) that blaming US for its situation is little bit extreme.
I call them "trade partners". I also call people who regard a trade deficit as "ripping off" "abyssmally ignorant of the basic facts of economics." A trade deficit is when a country sends us more good then we send them--for which they take dollars that *we print*. This is bad?
Probably some worker ran a power tool into the lining and then either they or their superiors tried to patch it up paint over it to conceal the error.
Putin is an enlightened civil servant
Your logic processing unit is broken if you think that the parent somehow implied Putin would be good if it weren't for the USA.
This is simply evidence of the incompetence of the Russian state itself. Roskosmos was re-nationalized in 2016, after experiencing quality control problems so severe they led to launch failures. This extends beyond Rogozin as director since he was deputy under Popovkin who also had problems with launches.
The problem is the structure of Russian culture, far beyond this incident being caused by just issue of management philosophy. Putin's culture is one of death, murder, and widespread terrorism directly conducted by Putin himself against the idea of human rights, and against Russia as enemy #1 with the rest of the world as enemy #2. Certainly the claims of sabotage will lead to Russia blaming every other country involved with the ISS.
This is still the truth, no matter how many Russian paid trolls with mod points try to hide it from general viewing.
It doesn’t take a paid shill to see your little rant has no connection to the topic here.
Putin is a bag of dicks, and connecting that to a manufacturing mistake on the ISS makes you a dick bag.
Don't be so self important. Why would Russia give a shit what happens on Slashdot let alone pay someone to work up mod points and attempt to downvote when someone says something bad about them.
Not everyone who disagrees with something gains financially as a result.
*Disclosure: This post bought and paid for by the International Consoritum for Counteracting Dumb Posts on the Internet.
That people who make mistakes are not punished?
No people definitely should be punished. They should be punished by going through additional training. They should be punished by sitting in Continuous Improvement Forums. They should be punished by participating in Root Cause of Failure Analysis workshops. They should be punished by being part of creating a process where their perfectly human mistakes are identified and rectified without escallation.
People who make mistakes should accept to be punished, and if they can't accept that, meaning if they try to hide their mistakes, they should be punished even more.
Your post is a mistake. Your throught process is a mistake. Since you're on the other end of the internet I ask you to do the right thing for your silly post so that you may learn from it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Very good; you've been keeping up. However, this discussion is about Soviet cultural attitudes... which are clearly alive and well.
He forced the oligarchs to pay taxes. It was that simple. Those who didn't pay taxes were sent directly to jail and their assets seized by the state, broken up, and sold at auction.
Why do you think this kind of behavior is specific to Russia? I've seen the same attitudes at American companies.
Have gnu, will travel.
The people who care about trade deficits are in government. A trade deficit means lower tax revenues here.
Me, I'd rather have stuff than cash.
The parent was not in any way arguing in favor of Putin, and no one is denying he is an authoritarian despot. The argument they were making is that US meddling in Russian internal politics and their post-communist economy created the conditions that enabled his rise to power. And now that the situation is reversed with economic disruption causing widespread angst here, Putin is turning the tables on us and nudging our political system to empower an authoritarian despot of our own.
Fortunately our despot is not nearly as competent as Putin, and he (hopefully) will not be able to hang onto power.
Do people a favour and never work on quality control for life support systems.
What do you suggest? That people who make mistakes are not punished?
Correct, people need to be corrected after they make their mistakes, not punished.
If that's your solution then people will stop caring about their jobs, they will make more and more mistakes, and finishing a project without flaws will become impossible. People who make mistakes should accept to be punished, and if they can't accept that, meaning if they try to hide their mistakes, they should be punished even more. Rogozin did exactly what any good manager should do.
Punishment specifically means a negative penalty, and that is exactly what caused the situation this article is about.
Literally your suggestion could have cost lives.
It's also very telling about your thinking. You are a dangerous hypocrite, and that isn't simply a baseless attack on you and I can explain why.
All people make mistakes. ALL of them. You, me, everyone. There is no "if", and there is no group of people that do not as you suggest.
So then, you personally have made countless mistakes in your life. You suggest you should have been punished countless times.
Yet here you are, posting on slashdot, clearly having Internet access and the money to pay for that.
This means you have a job to make that money, a job you have made countless mistakes at and as you say should have countless punishments.
This clearly hasn't happened.
So what you are really saying is that every human being on earth should be punished EXCEPT you. Thus, you are hypocritical. You want a different set of rules for you than literally everyone else.
That is dangerous because if you find it acceptable to be exempt from the punishments you claim you deserve, you are implicitly saying it is acceptable for everyone to exempt themselves from punishment.
If everyone believes they should be allowed to make mistakes, everyone will not bother correcting mistakes, and people will be harmed. Thus your thinking is dangerous.
It's like saying no person should be allowed to eat, since every person eats to stay alive, and you are sitting here alive and eating showing you don't believe in the very things you say.
Instead you just need to accept reality for what it is and base everything around that since you can't change it.
People make mistakes, all of them, all the time. So instead of punishment for existing, we should encourage people to point out all mistakes including their own, so those mistakes can be fixed and corrected.
Once you correct a mistake, there is no longer a mistake. It is the only possible way to have any results that aren't full of mistakes.
Poor Flopsy's dead and never called me 'Mother.' And because I am so evil, you will all die the slow way: under the drill.
But Whatabout Obama?
Yo, cluestick, your MAGA hat is crooked.
we have the receipts.
"people who rip you off on trade". I can see that the goof who is president is not the only goof. It's amazing the number of people that don't know how international trade works.
Sure. Whatever. Like you even know what you are talking about. Did you even pass your metallurgy classes?
There are many ways to successfully repair this, including welding. Until you provide specific information like the specific alloy, part shape, and specifications that need to be met, don't be an nay-saying asshole.
Everyone who disagrees with you is Russian or whoever your boogeyman is at the moment. Sad, really. Just for the record - I'm Canadian and I think you're fucking nuts. Seriously. Go back and read your comment. Now tell me that's not crazy talking.
PS - Wake up! USA president is a moron.
I don't know. The former Soviet Union? I'm just guessing.
Did you have a point in there somewhere?
Do you? Parent poster wasn't talking about any old engineering fuckup that could happen anywhere. He was going on and on and on about this being particular to Russian culture. So, what are the particular details that make this the case, and not anti-Russian hatorade. Point was easy enough to understand the first time - but it seems you were dropped on the head as a child.
Early and often.
Your comment would be equally true (which is to say, partially) and equally pointless if you swapped the USes for the Russias, and the Trumps for the Putins. The US and Russia are each (again, partially) responsible for the other's woes. That's what it's like being adversaries.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Thanks for proving the point.
This isn't about an engineering fuckup. It's about a management failure which has created a culture of blame-shifting, lies and deceit. And while it might not be an entirely Russian thing, just like the post you're replying to implies, it's particularly pronounced in Russia.
After all, US companies - despite frequently being horribly mismanaged - are not known for outright shooting people for making trivial mistakes, or shipping them into hell-hole work camps. Something which can not be said for Russia and the powers that be there.
Your entire comment is undermined by the following:
What would have happened if the US had not gotten involved? Would the falling Soviet Union have "fell more gently"? For that matter, does this not mean that the US was responsible merely for fighting the Cold War? I mean, shame on the US for defending Freedom and Democracy! Don't you know that the Soviet Union simply wanted to live and be free?
Lots of bargain bin analysts latch on to one thesis and ride it to some conclusion. Frequently they are looking for someone to blame for a particular outcome, and they make sure to arrive there.
It doesn't mean they are right and it proves nothing. They might have a point but history is usually more complicated than that. All it takes is a determined counter-argument from a different viewpoint and suddenly those historical lessons can take on a very different light.
Also troubling is a conservative analyst using "Liberal" as a negative term, as an epithet. Any analyst worth their salt knows this is a loaded term and so the language is deliberate. Yet the conservative US political establishment had far more responsibility for pressuring the old Soviet Union, than the liberal establishment.
This isn't a sign of responsible analysis. It's a sign of someone implicitly proclaiming the correctness and moral integrity of their political leanings, and ascribing bad outcomes to a different group. Sad, lame, and unprofessional.
Raised on a steady diet of Russia Today, I must conclude it must have been done by George Soros personally.
A former senior member of my department used to say, "Our systems are perfect...for obtaining the results we are getting, If we don't like the results, we need to change the system. " If you do not like the results you are getting the question to ask yourself is which part of your system is responsible for those results.
I was going to spend a little time going through the rest of his speech, but realized that if you need that, you missed the point.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Depends on how many dollars you allow them to have.
There comes a point when they have enough dollars, you have to ask yourself, how much damage could they do if they developed a desire to spent them? Assuming those dumb poor idiots are just going to do work for you forever is rather fool-hearty.
I mean, the Saudi Arabians would never in a million years dump oil on the market then use their dollar reserves in order to buy up US Energy companies. They'd also never in a million years buy up our technology companies which we pride ourselves on so much, like Tesla.
China would never dump steel on the market and use dollars to buy up foundries, steel manufacturing companies and suppliers. Nope, never would happen.
And Heaven Forbid Russia uses those dollars to buy US Politicians. You've got Trump being accused of being helped by the Russians during the election and Hillary with her insecure e-mail server that was hacked by the Russians. Nancy Pelosi was just informed her limo driver was a spy for 20 years. I wasn't born yesterday ya know.
It comes down to a lack of standards, really. If Trump is good enough for Russia, so is mangled aluminum.
I wonder if the Cheeto-in-Chief is going to start another trade war over this?
Probably not. Most dogs learn not to bite their owners.
For a continent flush with cash and a large budget surplus, every member should be able to spend an adequate amount on its own defense.
Agreed. This is also why we're not in NATO and are actually paying for our own defense. However note that this does not mean NATO should be done away with.
Uh oh, one of the counter-arguments to NATO membership was that it costs way too much. It requires a significant increase in defense spending in terms of the GNP, not a reduction. Also, when did we or a similar country have a budget surplus last time? Maybe countries like Norway have those regularly, but the rest probably not so much.
"But the technician didn't report the defect to anyone but sealed up the hole with epoxy. We found the person, and after a commotion he was terminated," It sounds to me like another way of saying "007 STILL managed to get ahold of a tank on the way out of the area."
That's half the problem with Russia's economy long term right there. At any point as a private business person, your assets can be seized by Putin and his cronies. So citizens don't get to foster an attitude of entrepreneurism which might lead to the kinds of technological innovations that would allow Russia to compete globally long-term. Why bother starting a business or getting funding for a clever idea when your business and technologies can be taken away by the state at any time?
Maybe you do not know what you are talking about. I work for a company that fabricates aluminum weldments as well as aluminum to non-aluminum materials (even ceramic to metals bonding, to boot). Occasionally some of our work even makes it into orbit and beyond.
As for fixing the problem at hand, I doubt they would be able to weld it now. (Although I would like to see a Lincoln or Miller welder on the ISS.) At this point I would think a plug or patch would be better suited considering the circumstances.
Kuulepas sä kiuaskivi, ma oon ihan aito virolainen ja ei se suomi olepas mun emänkieleni. Mutta sinunlaiselle paskanmarjalle ei voi muuta puhua kuin suomipuhetta.
Sä oot jokuinen niista saastoista, jota marsallka Mannerheim ei murskannut kunnolla Suomen kotisotassa. Sinusta on se hüva laulu - njet molotoff, mutta Molotoff on sinun nimesi hyvä Kiuas, koska valehtelet yhta "kivasti" kui hänkin.
Mutta me voime vain sanoa että olet taatusti joku sosialidemokraatinen ääliö.
I read on the interweb that you cannot. So it must be true.
Not quite. Putin might want to bring back the Soviet Union - a time when a person could be proud to call themselves Russian, even if the country seldom came close to living up to the ideals it proclaimed. He still has a long way to go.
Don't be so sure. Trump's message is simple, and has a long history of winning over a population in many countries. Patriotism, a dash of religion, demonise the other party, and blame all the evils of the country upon outsiders. It worked for Hitler. It worked for Putin. It worked for Kim Il-sung. So far, it's worked for Trump.
You're either an American who is a Putin apologist or a Russian sock-puppet who took over the account after it was abandoned or following payment.
"Putin is in power today because of the FSB agents who dynamited the Russian apartment blocks, caused mass deaths, and tampered in an election."
FTFY comrade
the Soviet Union - a time when a person could be proud to call themselves Russian
Riiight... 62M murdered (Rummel's pretty conservative figures) compared to 21M of Hitler's merry gang. Surely, it must be a honour to work for the glory of such a magnificent regime!
And, such a great quality of life! It was great to thumb the nose at foul imperialist countries...
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Wow, Russia murdered 62 million of Its own people between 1937-1943 vs the 21M Hitler's policies killed? That sounds implausible.
Or are you comparing dissimilar figures to distort things, like six of Hitler vs 60 of Stalin and friends? Because why not say China killed 1,000,000,000 since more than about that many died since it was founded through when Mao liberated them with only a few tens of millions of deaths...
So you are saying the Russian people are so stupid and gullible that a few people making up stories can sway an election from a 9% candidate to a 50.1% win for Yeltsin and make him dance?
Let me guess, you also simultaneously claim that Russians are too smart to be fooled into believing things like Vlad isnt a kleptocrat who murders his political opponents.
I guess we have more in common, America and Russia, than we like. A third of voters anyway.
If we belch enough carbon into the atmosphere, Siberia will not be a bad place to be assigned.
Warmer gulag, here we come!
So, not just early and often, but from high distances? What is specifically Russian about this scenario. How is this annnnnnnny different than the head of NASA making the same sort of comment on the same sort of mistake.
No idea, that's why I'm asking the parent, who thinks there's something specific to Russia with the response to the leak.
You cited it further down in the thread, but it got downmodded out of sight and I still wanted to get points for picking on you. It's all under the umbrella of your batshit, and baby I got that point.
Also I don't see anything from the Hudson review or WSJ in your comment. You linked a Time cover that doesn't agree with you. You linked the Cato Institute, a think tank founded by a Koch. I don't really care about your theory, especially since you seem unable to present any reliable information on it.
An absurd absolute is a restatement of the other person's reasonable position as an absurd absolute. For example, if your point is there is high crime in Detroit, the absurd absolute would be your debate opponent saying something such as "So, you're saying every person in Detroit is a criminal." When your debate opponent recasts your opinion to include an "absolute" word, such as every, always, never, all, completely, universally, and the like, you are seeing cognitive dissonance.
Some people call what I just described a strawman argument. But a strawman argument refers to any sort of inaccurate recasting of your opponent's argument. That is the generic case. I'm referring to a specific strawman argument that uses an absurd absolute. When your debate opponent recasts your point as an absurd absolute, you won the debate. That's as far as you can go.
http://blog.dilbert.com/post/160696999931/how-to-know-you-won-a-political-debate-on-the
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Talk to short haul truck drivers. They cannot compete against illegal immigrants who do not pay their load insurance.
Talk to hotel housekeepers, which used to be a unionized job with benefits.
Talk to union construction workers, who cannot compete when contractors hire undocumented workers who work at a fraction of the pay, and are easily disposed when they get injured.
Talk to the thousands upon thousands of tech workers and developers and programmers that lost their jobs to HB1 visas and had to TRAIN their replacements.
Why do we have an inability to train enough nurses and need to import them?
Functioning economy is a stretch. Not everyone goes to college. Why do you force young people to compete for their first jobs with older immigrants?
This is off the top of my head, and not some airy fairy myth I KNOW these people.
This sounds cold but not every potential immigrant's problems are our problem. Not every problem is our problem. The Americans who are hurt the most are the ones who need the low level jobs.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Wow, this is fascinating. Is this really the best the trolls can do?
My Finnish is fairly rudimentary but even I can tell that the spelling and vocabulary is decidedly odd. Both indicate that the author is someone who speaks Finnish reasonably well but who is way more used to writing in Estonian.
So Estonians beware...
Also, what's the point of commenting in broken Finnish on Slashdot?
A mistake was made.
Are you certain it was a mistake? It could have been sabotage.
From TFS:
We can see the mark where the drill bit slid along the surface of the hull
That doesn't sound like an accurately located hole. Which would most likely have been made with a jig or started with a punch. Someone just walked up with a drill and it skidded across the surface. A failing grade on a Metal Shop 101 project in high school.
Have gnu, will travel.
This is why you aren't a good engineer, if an engineer at all.
If your process involves "a person doing the right thing" then it is destined to fail and usually fail spectacularly. First thing we learned in tech school.
What you are actually doing here is doubling down on the derp because you know at one time or another you fucked up something "simple" but your mindset says "you know what you're doing" and the two don't compute. In response, you project your own stupidity onto others so you can bitch at them for being the dumbass and when the time comes and you fuck up again, because you will, you can scream "I'm not as dumb as that guy!". I wonder how many coworkers you've thrown under the proverbial bus?
Yeah yeah yeah. A moose once bit my seeester as well. Fuck em. Buy a llama.
Yes. Duh. Idiot self appointed internet economists are the worst.
China sent tea to Britain in exchange for useless silver. The Brits used violence to arrange for a trade system where China did not hoard all of the currency. Trade imbalance is bad. Really bad over the long term. Do you think China intends to just hold the currency forever without getting anything in return? Fooling yourself obviously. Idiot.
... space station drills you!