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Which Company Makes the Best Camera Phone in 2018? Not Apple

Which smartphone takes the best photos? For years, the unequivocal answer to that question has been the iPhone. Apple has, for years, taken pride in the pictures its iPhones are able to capture. And rightly so. But over the years, the competition has been catching up, and now it feels like it has stolen that crown from the iPhone. Here's a review of various reviews of the iPhones.

The Verge, reviewing the iPhone 6 launched in 2014: There's one feature that stands out, though, the one that most strongly makes the iPhone 6's case as the best smartphone on the planet: the camera. A year later, The Verge reviews the iPhone 6s: But these improvements aren't dramatic, since the previous rear camera was already terrific. Still, the new rear camera will maintain the iPhone's position as the best smartphone camera around. In another review, it said: I noticed slightly better macro performance and slightly better bokeh in a few shots, but Apple's been taking iPhone 6 photos and blowing them up to put on billboards for a year, so the bar is pretty damn high. Let's put it this way: the iPhone 6S is the best camera most people will ever own, but it's not going to keep anyone out of the market for a mirrorless rig. The camera review of the iPhone 7 Plus: This all adds up to a decent improvement, but the iPhone 6S was already operating at the top of the scale, bested only recently by the latest cameras in the Galaxy S7 and Note 7. In low light, that faster lens and optical image stabilization means that the 7 significantly outperforms the 6S. But compared to the iPhone 6S, the iPhone 7 is a step improvement, not a major leap. The camera review of the last year's iPhone 8 Plus: Over the past year, the S8 and Pixel pulled ahead of the iPhone 7 in various tests. Apple told me they don't look at benchmarks closely, but the images from the iPhone 8 camera definitely look more like Apple's competitors than before. Like Samsung, iPhone images are now more saturated by default, although Apple says it's still aiming for realism instead of the saturated colors and smoothing of the S8. And HDR is just on all the time, like the Pixel -- you can't turn it off, although you can set it to save a non-HDR image as well. We ran around shooting with an iPhone 8, a Pixel XL, and S8, and iPhone 7 on auto, and the iPhone 8 produced the most consistent and richest images of the group, although the Pixel was the clear winner several times, especially in extreme low light. The camera review of the $1,000 iPhone X, which was also launched last year: Now that we have an iPhone X and the Google Pixel 2, we're going to do a super in-depth camera comparison, but here's what I can tell you right now: the iPhone X has basically the same cameras as the iPhone 8, and the photos look almost exactly the same. And at the end of the day, I tend to prefer the photos from the Pixel 2 XL. And now, the camera review of the iPhone XS and XS Max, which The Verge published Tuesday (video): The camera upgrades in the XS over the X are significant. But I'm just going to come out and say this: I don't think the iPhone XS has better cameras than the [Google] Pixel 2 ... and Pixel 3 comes out in just a few weeks. Don't get me wrong, it's a really good camera, and I think people are going to like the photos it takes. But the Pixel 2 is the standard to beat and the iPhone XS doesn't do it for me.

174 comments

  1. Camera? Or Photoprocessing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I don't know who makes the best camera. But, Apple's photo-processing makes the best pictures. I carry Androids from Samsung and others and I always envy the beauty of iPhone pictures.

    1. Re: Camera? Or Photoprocessing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, with what they are doing (or did at the demo), the processing Apple do seems to be the best in terms of giving the best possible tools to the masses.

    2. Re:Camera? Or Photoprocessing? by GuB-42 · · Score: 2, Informative

      From an optical standpoint, smartphone cameras are shit, all of them. Good cameras need big lenses and big sensors. Quantum physics told us that light has a size, its wavelength, and it comes in small packets called photons, it means you can't expect to make a camera smaller and expect the same quality as something bigger.

      The reason smartphones are able to take decent pictures is all about photo-processing. There is analog and digital image processing in the camera itself, plus additional processing by the smartphone. They are now going as far as using machine learning in order to make something out of the noisy mess these sensors are outputting. That's quite impressive, really.

    3. Re:Camera? Or Photoprocessing? by RenderSeven · · Score: 1

      But not the Pixel 2. Try them side-by-side and you'll see. Everyone in my family has a different phone and when the picture has to be good, everyone asks me to use the Pixel, even the Apple fans. And in low light, there is absolutely no comparison at all.

      If Apple didnt have such an established (and well-earned) reputation no one would even be having this discussion.

    4. Re:Camera? Or Photoprocessing? by Rei · · Score: 2, Informative

      Processing depends on what your goals are "out of the box". You can apply a noise filter, up edge sharpness, increase the saturation to make things more vivid, etc.... but you can also do that in post. On the other hand, such filtering can throw out real details and is not always desirable. On the opposite end of the spectrum, unfiltered HDR images can look washed out and grainy, but you'll get the best results if you use them as a starting point for further processing.

      A good comparison between heavy filtering and low filtering can be seen here in this comparison between the same plant shot in low light conditions between the Note 9 (heavy filtering) and the XZ2 Premium (low filtering). The leaves on the Note 9 look "prettier", all smooth from being filtered out. Yet you can hardly see any real details on them like the veins - indeed, on the XZ2, on the large upper leaves you can even see secondary veins in the leaves. The Note 9's filtering also at times smooths together different leaves (not seeing enough of a contrast between them to treat them as separate objects), but the differences are all distinct in the XZ2.

      So the real question is... do you want filters, or real detail? And honestly there is no single "one choice is best for everyone" answer.

      (Also beware of "smoothness due to dragging out the exposure" issues... note the difference in the fountains between these two shots)

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    5. Re:Camera? Or Photoprocessing? by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Apple's photo-processing makes the best pictures.

      That seems unlikely.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    6. Re:Camera? Or Photoprocessing? by jrumney · · Score: 1

      I've seen some comparisons of Pixel 2 with various other high end phone cameras, and it does seem like the processing software of the Pixel 2 makes better decisions a lot of the time when you just leave them set to auto mode. But in side by side comparison photos taken in high light level conditions where post-processing contributes less of the end result, you can often see that competitors have sharper focus due to their better quality lenses (not specifically talking about Apple here), and by changing settings (many phones still have HDR off by default for example) you can usually get similar results in low or mixed light levels.

      The summary only mentions Google and Samsung as competitors to Apple, but Samsung are the last phone company I'd consider for cameras - Sony, and lately Huawei, are much better known for focusing on their camera performance.

    7. Re:Camera? Or Photoprocessing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree and disagree.

      I a system with on board general purpose processing ability, there is a right answer, and that is maximum information. With maximum information you can do what you like.

      From a personal preference perspective, there is no right answer, and we have passed the point where there's a huge variety of opinions. We aren't making huge improvements in the sensors, a lot of the phones people are arguing over are the same damn sensor and close to identical lenses. They are arguing over default processing choices.

      Nikon, pentax and sony DSLRs all use the same sensors. They all have different approaches to default processing and metering, etc. That and the ecosystem of lenses, flashes, etc is what you buy into. The same brand loyalty arguing about the "best" you find in the DSLR world you will get in the smartphone world except times a million, and it will for the most part be even more ill informed and moronic.

      Unlike in the DSLR world, nobody bothers to compare performance shooting raw, which most of the upper end phones are capable of in one way or another.

      Most of them have surpassed good enough, and RAW is an option on most higher end phones at this point. I'm pretty jazzed I have those options in a point and shoot glued on to a small general purpose computer, and the fact we stopped arguing about least worst and moved on to arguing the best for nearly half a decade.

      That's pretty awesome.

    8. Re:Camera? Or Photoprocessing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you ignore Samsung, then you'd be missing out. It has two phones on the top 5 DXO mark benchmarks

      https://www.dxomark.com/category/mobile-reviews/

    9. Re:Camera? Or Photoprocessing? by torkus · · Score: 1

      Yup. People look at me like i'm crazy when I take pictures with my dSLR. ... and then they go crazy looking at the pictures I took because they're so much better.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    10. Re:Camera? Or Photoprocessing? by Rei · · Score: 1

      The hardware is not all the same, however. They have different aperture sizes (light-gathering ability), different sensor sizes (detail), different focal lengths, etc. The XZ2 Premium also has something that AFAIK is unique among cell phones, in that they have a second camera which is a dedicated greyscale (aka low-light optimized) camera, which provides extra intensity data to the colour camera when shooting in low-light conditions. So not only do you have the combined aperture and sensor area, but a large chunk of that sensor area does not suffer from the losses and blurring effects of colour filters.

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    11. Re:Camera? Or Photoprocessing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My old G3 takes better pictures than any iPhone and without fake photo processing.

  2. for years? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    Really, I thought the 40Mp Nokia Lumia from several years ago kicked Apples ass....yes it was a Windows phone but the pictures were great compared to everything else...still not enough to make me give up my SLR but it was getting on par with the shitty point and shoots.

    1. Re: for years? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only that, but Apple hasn't been at the top in quite a while. Ever since Microsoft finally issued its final death blow to Nokia, the top has always been one of HTC, Pixel, or the occasional Samsung.

  3. I thought Samsung made the best camera phones? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Maybe I missed something, but I always thought Samsung made the best camera phones in recent years.

    (Nice subtle advertisement btw)

    1. Re:I thought Samsung made the best camera phones? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      which portable digital camera would be optimized for taking "selfies" of a tuna melt sandwich?

    2. Re: I thought Samsung made the best camera phones? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      High end Samsungs are just over priced shit just like IPhoneX

      Buy a Pixel you fool.

    3. Re: I thought Samsung made the best camera phones? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Er, no.

    4. Re:I thought Samsung made the best camera phones? by torkus · · Score: 1

      You didn't miss anything. Cherry-picking reviews to try to tell a narrative is kinda lame if you ask me.

      Granted, I've personally done literal side-by-side over the last few generations of Apple vs. Samsung since I get/test/use both for work. Samsung consistently out-performs Apple in low-light. Usually by a large margin too. My 2c of course, but I trust what I personally experience way more than what some reviewer justifying his/her existence says.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    5. Re: I thought Samsung made the best camera phones? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      High end Samsungs are just over priced shit just like IPhoneX

      I have a Note 8. It's not overpriced shit. It's overpriced awesome.

      Buy a Pixel you fool.

      The Pixel 2 is quite nice, I looked at those too. Buy whatever you like most and can afford.

  4. Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 2

    'Nuff said.

    1. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Exactly.
      The iPhone camera has never been a superior camera to real full fledged digital cameras (of their time). And for Phone Camera's I doubt for the average user that they will see a difference from an iPhone X to an iPhone 6 and defiantly not compared from an iPhone X to a Google Pixel 2.
      Now in the hands of an experience photographer they will probably be better off with a real camera, as such device is designed to make good quality images, and not just an add on feature. But for us. Not much of a difference.

      I cannot just people Facebook pictures and say, they used an iPhone while the other guy used an Android. They both actually take decent pictures.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'Nuff said.

      Yeah. And I've been shopping for just a phone call only phone and I can't find one compatible with my service. There are plenty of cheap phones with cameras, but they have horrible ratings.

      If there is an innovative disruptive Silicon Valley genius out there who wants to do something, how about a really cheap, reliable cell phone that JUST makes calls and texts?

      No camera. No games. Nothing. Get it to less than $30 and you got something - which should be easy without the crap. Oh! And it MUST take SIM cards so if I trash the phone, I just get another one and change the card.

    3. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 0

      Unless you are a professional photographer, a phone-cam is plenty good enough. A camera is a superfluous expense, and you likely won't even have it with you when a photo opportunity arises. There are clip on mounts and lenses that can turn a phone into a microscope or a telescopic camera.

    4. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by b0bby · · Score: 2

      I have a camera (several, actually). But I always have my phone on me, and it automatically uploads my photos both to Google Photos so my wife can look at them and Dropbox so I have the original quality if I want. The convenience of this alone means that I now take many more photos using my phone than I do on my cameras.

      My current phone is about to be replaced by a Pixel 2 when/if they drop in price a bit.

    5. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, even the best of them are frustrating and inadequate.

    6. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. That's why I'll stick with my phone

    7. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      If there is an innovative disruptive Silicon Valley genius out there who wants to do something, how about a really cheap, reliable cell phone that JUST makes calls and texts? ... No camera. No games. Nothing.

      If you make products for geezers, your market shrinks with every funeral.

    8. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are you assuming only 'geezers' would buy that? Maybe, JUST MAYBE, there's people smart enough out there to realize that 'smartphones' are dumb because they're just mobile surveillance and data-stealing platforms, and even ignoring that they've got more holes in their overall security than a kitchen collander, and they just want a PHONE instead? Not everyone has their head up their ass.

    9. Re: Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technically, a smartphone in the hands of a teenager is more likely to kill them since they all seem to think they can play with it and drive at the same time :|

    10. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same here. I'm about $10k in on a decent Nikon system... but I still use my camera on my iPhone X most of the time. The main advantage is as you said: the ability to instantly upload and share the photos.

      I find that if I take my time and spend just as much effort on composition and lighting with my iPhone X that I can still take some wonderful photos with it. Are they comparable in raw quality to my Nikon? Nope. But I didn't have to lug around 20 pounds of camera gear to get it either....

    11. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      nonsense, unless you never leave your mom's basement without a camera, most people do not have one on them at all times

    12. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not everyone has their head up their ass.

      Nice to know not everyone is like you. If they were, I suspect Reynolds aluminum would be doing a lot better than they are today.

    13. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2

      There are reasonably priced cameras that fit in a shirt pocket so that you can have it available at all times. With larger sensors than a phone-cam and large optical zoom range, they are capable of results far better than a phone-cam and about 2/3 the quality of a top-line DSLR.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    14. Re: Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure who this mythical "they" is, but my teenagers certainly don't "seem to think" that. I usually see more adults with their phones behind the wheel... (granted, all millennials are now adults these days).

    15. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      2/3 the CCD resolution is not 2/3 the quality.

      Compact point and shoots still have _crappy_ glass. Better than a cell phone, but still crap.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    16. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      For most people the cellphone camera is more camera than they will ever need. Their ability as a photographer will never outstrip the camera's ability to capture the image. Also there is a big difference between image quality (measurable attributes like pixel count, pixel density, noise, sharpness, how it handles bokeh, etc) and picture quality (subjective items like framing, subject matter, etc). Any camera is capable of capturing a good picture in most cases as that is mostly operator dependent. However the pissing contests over cameras that most people get into is all over image quality not ability to capture the picture they want. For that I would be willing to put my entry level 10 year old DSLR with kit lens, APS-C 10MP CCD sensor, and max ISO of 3200 up against current cell phone cameras and it would beat most and be a very strong competitor to the best. Let me stick my best glass on it and it will crush them. This ignores my one generation back flagship pro level digital or my ancient all manual but high end film body, both of which again would crush any cellphone. There are just hard physical limits that you very quickly run into with tiny sensors.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    17. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      There are clip on mounts and lenses that can turn a phone into a microscope or a telescopic camera.

      And those suck but they are better than nothing. While this is a bit absurd, they didn't have to take a flagship pro camera for the test, it does show the difference in quality and should properly set expectations of those add on lenses for cellphones. My advice is to view them like most pro photographers view telephoto converters, most are crap, a few aren't bad, but they are all better than nothing when you really need the extra reach.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    18. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are you assuming only 'geezers' would buy that?

      Maybe the FACT that such devices already exist and nobody is buying them, you fucking dumbass.

    19. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      Like using a regular expression, now you have two problems.

    20. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Malc · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. That's just you not wanting to carry around a separate camera. They do some amazing things in software in these phones, but looking at mobile phone photos on a real screen and working with them in Lightroom is just fucking depressing, especially when they're seen alongside photos from my six year old P&S and 8 and 2 year old DSLRs. I'm certainly no "professional photographer", but that doesn't mean I'm part of the take-a-million-shit-photos-and-post-them-all-online-and-never-look-at-them-again brigade.

    21. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Edward? Ed Lyle? Is that you? It's been a while since we last talked, I heard you have a small fire at your shop...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    22. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1
      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    23. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      You're obviously not a photographer... But as I am, I'll add my two cents:

      A phone with a better than decent camera is a godsend. It's a camera I can always have with me. I can (and have) taken pictures of people with my phone that I'd have never been able to with my DSLR. (The DSLR stands out, with a phone I'm just another guy with his face buried in his phone.) Heck, I've taken random pictures of various interesting things that I would never have done before - because I wouldn't have had my DSLR in that situation.

      As far as image quality goes... Only four kinds of people really sweat high image quality: Clueless amateurs. Advertisers & commercial photography. Fine art photographers. High end photographers who'll be printing at poster size or larger. Or, to put it another way - the genesis of a great photograph lies in the eye, the hand, and the brain of the photographer. Not in having l33t gear. I personally know a guy placing high (and occasionally winning!) in national and international competition with a Canon 10D... 6 megapixels, released in 2003.

      Will my phone camera replace my DSLR? No. But then my socket wrenches can't be completely replaced by vise-grips either. Both cameras are tools, and each has it's place in my toolbox.

    24. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, if you are going to compare it to an high end SLR, then you should be doing tests for things like low light, high speed action photography, shooting in bursts, etc.

      They should compare a $500 rebel + $500 70-300 vs a $35 zoom + a $1000 iPhone

    25. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Even if they used a cheap old DSLR it would still stomp on phone camera+zoom attachment. I picked up a cheap long discontinued consumer super zoom lens (tamron 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3) as a beater lens and went and decided to play with it on my old DLSR this past weekend and image quality wise it is much closer to the high end camera shot than to the iPhone+zoom attachment shot. That camera was an entry level DSLR 10 years ago and I paid about $100 for the body last year and paid $60 for the cheap consumer super zoom lens last week. While a bit on the soft side it isn't anywhere as out of focus as the cell phone+zoom attachment. It also doesn't have the chromatic aberrations that abound in that cellphone shot.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    26. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      they are capable of results far better than a phone-cam

      I guess you need to provide some proof of that.

    27. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Why are you assuming only 'geezers' would buy that?

      Because they already exist. You can buy them on Amazon. But the only place I have ever seen them advertized is in my mom's AARP newsletter.

      The only reason to want a phone without a camera is if you are a technophobe, and fear complexity, which is strongly correlated with geezerhood. Otherwise you could just NOT USE IT. It adds about 100mg of mass to your phone, and near zero power consumption. If you fear the NSA, you could just tape over it, or blot it out with epoxy. But that would be foolish, because a camera can be very handy in an emergency such as a car accident or witnessed crime.

    28. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by Rei · · Score: 1

      It depends on what you're photographing. Outdoors in the daytime, I agree with you; it's largely not the phone that matters most, but the photographer. But in dim conditions and with motion, the small apertures of smartphones are a very serious limitation.

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    29. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      As far as image quality goes... Only four kinds of people really sweat high image quality: Clueless amateurs. Advertisers & commercial photography. Fine art photographers. High end photographers who'll be printing at poster size or larger.

      You forgot four groups: Natural-light photographers, sports photographers, portrait photographers, and candid photographers, though arguably it isn't really because those groups need image quality per se so much as because they need light gathering ability, and light gathering ability is a major driver of image quality.

      • Natural light: The biggest difference between a cell phone camera and, for example, a modern full-frame DSLR is that the DSLR can produce tolerable IQ at crazy ISO levels that a phone can only dream about. To be fair, that comes at a significant price in terms of glass weight and $$$ spent, but for folks doing natural-light or low-light photography, it is often worth the price.
      • Sports: Getting serviceable shots in most arenas often requires big lenses. You have more light, but you also have more motion, which requires a shorter shutter speed. So you end up needing higher-end gear for the same reason that natural-light photography does.
      • Portraits: A DSLR's depth of field is narrower at any given f-stop, allowing for better foreground isolation without the sorts of multi-camera fakery that can often produce visibly distracting artifacts.
      • Candid photography: When trying to take candid shots, the most important thing is being able to get a shot quickly and have it always work. If the shot is blurred because your phone could not stop motion enough in the available light, or if shutter lag causes the shot to become less desirable, or if the phone's camera stalls for two seconds trying to find focus, you are now taking a posed photo instead of a candid shot, and it just doesn't give the same feel.

      For me, the reason for owning a real camera is not that I can't (in theory) take any given shot with a smartphone, but rather because it makes the difference between most of the shots working and most of the shots having to be retried several times. And when you're talking about a bald eagle landing on a post, you really can't ask it to go back and circle around again. You can't ask the train or bus to stop and back up. You can't ask the folks who have now seen you to pretend the camera isn't there. And so on. If you only get one shot at a shot, the camera has to "just work" every time, and the laws of physics preclude cell phone cameras from ever really reaching equality with large-lens devices.

      The big shock will be when we start to see full-frame DSLRs with global electronic shutters, so that they will be able to do the same sorts of tricks that cell phones do, taking several shots in a row and automatically selecting the one with the least motion blur. That will broaden the gap between cell phone cameras and standalone cameras back to historical levels.

      Of course, cell phone cameras will still be better at shooting through wavy glass or small holes in fences, and at photographing the labels that are on the back sides of major appliances, but I digress.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    30. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      The best camera is the one you have when you want to take a picture.
      If you always carry around your camera, good for you. If it's at home in your camera bag, it's not going to take a very good picture is it?

    31. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      I never claimed that a phone camera could replace a DSLR - in fact I specifically pointed out that it could not.

      For me, the reason for owning a real camera is not that I can't (in theory) take any given shot with a smartphone, but rather because it makes the difference between most of the shots working and most of the shots having to be retried several times.

      If you have to reshoot most of the photos you attempt with a cell phone, then I don't know what to tell you - because I can't imagine a single situation in which this is the phone's fault. Either you're trying to take pictures the phone can't, or you don't know how to properly use and work within the limits of a phone camera. (Or possibly you need upgrade from whatever low end cell phone you're using.) It's a poor workman that blames the tool.

      Note: I shoot natural light and candids routinely with my cell camera without any problems. I don't shoot portraits or sports at all.

    32. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I have a decent camera, it's even quite compact, but since I got a Pixel XL I didn't use it, The photos from the Pixel are excellent, good enough that the upgrade I'd get from carrying a real DSLR just isn't worth it.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    33. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I found that what puts older people off smartphones is often that they get a crappy one. They aren't sure if they want one so get the cheapest or a hand-me-down just to try it. The phone is slow and unresponsive, the touchscreen barely works and even I find it frustrating and annoying.

      My mum had this issue until I got her a decent phone and now she is fine with it.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    34. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Pixel phones seem to have the best low light performance. They apparently have larger sensors than most phones, at the expense of optical image stabilization which they offset by doing it in software.

      Low light is always a weak spot for iPhones. The colour always looks artificial and they get a lot of bloom and wash out. Apple has tuned their software to make the subject bright and as clear as possible which isn't a bad thing for selfies and portraits, but there is obviously a cost to doing that.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    35. Re:Forget smartphones, just buy a camera by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      If you have to reshoot most of the photos you attempt with a cell phone, then I don't know what to tell you - because I can't imagine a single situation in which this is the phone's fault. Either you're trying to take pictures the phone can't, or you don't know how to properly use and work within the limits of a phone camera.

      You misunderstand. I mostly shoot photos in low light situations. I don't have to reshoot most of the photos I attempt. I own a real camera because I know the limits of cell phone cameras, and am not willing to limit my craft to the sorts of shooting environments where cell phones work well.

      It's a poor workman that blames the tool.

      You're grossly misusing that phrase. It does not mean that a good craftsman can do anything with any tool. Rather, it means that a good craftsman chooses the best tools that he or she can afford so that he or she will not be limited by them more than necessary, and then takes on only the sorts of projects that are realistic within the limits of his or her tools.

      That's why I carried *two* DSLRs on my last trip, in addition to my cell phone. I used the cell phone for quick panoramas to post on Facebook, one camera for wide shots, and the other camera for close-up shots. I knew that if I didn't do that, I would probably miss shots while changing lenses. And it really paid off. At the end of a boat trip, I got some amazing shots of a bald eagle landing about 150 feet in front of me just seconds after I shot some wide-angle shots of the marina. If I had been using a cell phone with some screw-on teleconverter, either I would have missed the shot entirely while desperately trying to screw on the teleconverter, or the eagle would have been a small cluster of pixels. Instead, I said, "Whoah!" when I saw it out of the corner of my eye, flying out over the water. It took less than a second to pull up my 5D Mark IV with the attached 100-400 lens from where it was hanging around my neck and start shooting pictures that were absolutely breathtaking. Then, while other people were still futzing with their screw-on lenses, I walked to within about fifty feet of the bird and shot some even closer shots of the eagle perched atop a wooden post. Eventually, some of the cell phone users without teleconverters walked up close to the post and got some shots from under the bird, which is about the only thing you can do with a wide-angle lens. By that time, I was already back on the bus with shots in hand.

      A poor craftsman blames his tools. A good craftsman replaces them when he outgrows them.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  5. The Verge, reference site for professionals... by Tjp($)pjT · · Score: 5, Informative

    ... but not professional photographers. DXO Mark is a bit more respected, and put the iPhone X at the top, and we can wait and see for the new crop. Some layman saying “I like ...” is not a great metric.

    --
    - Tjp

    I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!

    1. Re:The Verge, reference site for professionals... by Tjp($)pjT · · Score: 1

      Oh, yes I now the Pixel 2 when it came out edged out the iPhone X by 1 point. IPhone X still ruled in the categories most important to the casual user. Well, ruled by the slimmest of margins. Pixel 2 bokeh won, but the XS line has very smart bokeh, including altering the effect after the shot. The neural net linked to the image processor is tough to follow. But I won’t place a bet until the professionals weigh in.

      --
      - Tjp

      I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!

    2. Re:The Verge, reference site for professionals... by msauve · · Score: 4, Informative

      Odd, that you think a phone rated below 7 others, including the Pixel 2, is "at the top."

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    3. Re:The Verge, reference site for professionals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Put iphone x at the top of what? It didn't put it as #1, it put it as #8.

      https://www.dxomark.com/category/mobile-reviews/

    4. Re:The Verge, reference site for professionals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Put iphone x at the top of what? It didn't put it as #1, it put it as #8.

      https://www.dxomark.com/category/mobile-reviews/

      7 of those 8 reviews happened after the iPhone X was released. If you look at news back in November '17, you'll see that iPhone X was 1 point below the Pixel 2 (and still is), the #1 phone at the time. https://9to5mac.com/2017/11/06/iphone-x-scores-97-dxomark/

      Sorry for bringing logic into the discussion. This is /. after all. Down with Apple!

    5. Re:The Verge, reference site for professionals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      logic = using a specific point in time from nearly a year ago to say that iphone is best? Apple makes a good camera/phone, why make easily disprovable statements to make some point about yours being the best opinion?

    6. Re:The Verge, reference site for professionals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The whole point of the post was that apple used to have the best smartphone camera, and your rebuttal is 'it was the best one a year ago'? uh.... isn't that the point of the post?

    7. Re:The Verge, reference site for professionals... by radarskiy · · Score: 0

      Most people are not professional photographers but are already likely to buy cell phones. So which analysis is more relevant to them?

    8. Re:The Verge, reference site for professionals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fucking apple zealot logic

    9. Re:The Verge, reference site for professionals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same DxOMark who buried their scores on the Pentax 645z for yearsuntil a model from one of their sponsors matched it?

      They can hardly be considered an objective source.

    10. Re:The Verge, reference site for professionals... by Solandri · · Score: 1

      It's also worth pointing out that most of the camera sensors used in phones are made by Sony (including the camera in the iPhone). A lot of the differences these camera review sites are trumpeting is nothing more than post-processing. That is, if you had the raw image data, you could process it to make one camera's output identical to another's. If you're a serious enough photographer to read DXO Mark's reviews, then you probably already have the post-processing knowledge to overcome most of the flaws they point out in a particular phone's camera.

      Sony grabbed the opportunity that Kodak missed. While Kodak was the first company to realize that electronic digital imaging was the future (they developed first the CCD camera in 1975), they didn't have the technological base to manufacture their own sensors on the scale needed to replace film. So they always outsourced that part of their production. This resulted in Kodak holding nothing but patents when digital replaced film. OTOH Sony had the technical capability to manufacture their own sensors, and quickly took over the small camera sensor market.

    11. Re:The Verge, reference site for professionals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The truth doesn't matter. msmash bashes Apple at every turn. This wasn't even a submission, this was something put out there by msmash just for that purpose. So we never find out what the best camera phone really is, we just find a bunch of articles that say it isn't Apple. Nothing like confirmation bias to push msmash's hate.

  6. Pixel has always been better. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The original pixel's camera was better than anything the iPhone offered also. Apple fell off the podium years ago, not just recently. Even Sony's camera's stomped all over apple.

    1. Re:Pixel has always been better. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple was never on the podium. Apple has never had the best camera, not once.

      About the best that can be said for Apple is that they tend to produce phones that are above average across the board. But they've never been particularly standout at anything.

  7. Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by Rei · · Score: 1

    Love its camera setup. Like many modern phones, there's an extra camera on the back, but rather than being telephoto or wide angle or the like, it's greyscale, and designed solely for getting intensity values in low light. So they maximize the light data for a given amount of sensor area, and then correlate it to the color data from the primary camera.

    While the benefit is nice in still pictures, it really shines in motion. Some great comparisons here.

    Also like how the phone doesn't try to make still shots look better by running everything through sharpness filters and upping the saturation. It gives you something much closer to raw data so you can choose how to present it. Its 920 fps 1080p slow motion is really impressive, too.

    --
    "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    1. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by gaiageek · · Score: 1

      Too bad it doesn't have a headphone jack.

    2. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Cheap out and get the XZ. Same CCD, and a headphone jack.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    3. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by Rei · · Score: 1

      * I've resigned myself to the fact that the headphone jack is going the way of the dodo, though I don't like that fact. Have to convert at some point.
        * I'm not yet resigned to the concept that LCD screens are being killed off by AMOLED :P Seems to be happening, but I'll keep raging against they dying of the light.
        * I'm rather indifferent to the notch. I know I'm supposed to have strong feelings one way or another but... nah.
        * I'll keep resisting bezel-less designs. No, I don't like having my fingers covering the screen when I hold it. Yes, I do like having a buffer zone around my screen if it falls.
        * Edge displays: see above, but times 100.
        * I'll accept non-replaceable batteries in the name of good water and dust protection, though if they can pull off a good rating with a replaceable battery, that's obvious bonus points. But "better protection" beats "replaceable battery".

      Hmm, did I miss any of the modern cell phone design religious war topics? ;)

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    4. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by gaiageek · · Score: 1

      Hmm, did I miss any of the modern cell phone design religious war topics? ;)

      You forgot ever-growing screen/device size! (Something I'm also resisting.)

      I can see how some people can accept no headphone jack in the same way that I can see how many people were perfectly content using the stock earphones that came with their device. But for anyone who works with music, audio production, or just gives a shit about sound quality, not being able to use your personal preference of headphones is just not an option. And for me, having had to use a dongle in the past to listen to music from my smartphone (pre-iPhone/Android), fuck that. So, it's give me a proper headphone jack, or I'll take my money elsewhere. Hopefully enough of us will do this to keep 3.5mm headphones jacks alive.

    5. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by Rei · · Score: 1

      The camera on the XZ2 Premium is its main selling point, and not available on any of the other earlier XZ models. But I guess if you don't do low-light / fast motion photography much it's not that big of a deal.

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    6. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by Rei · · Score: 1

      It's not so much the "replacing hardware" that bothers me as it is the fact that you have to either go wireless - meaning "something else to charge" - or use a micro USB connection. And micro-USB isn't anywhere near as durable as a 3,5mm headphone jack. I loved the 3,5mm jack because it's such a thick, strong piece of metal it's almost impossible to mess up. You might mess up the wiring leading up to the jack or the cord that connects to the plug, but not the jack itself or the plug. Micro-USB ports are just so fragile.

      I understand why they want to reclaim the volume taken up by the 3,5mm jack, I really do. Even tiny amounts of internal space make a big difference for them in terms of capabilities that they can offer. But I don't like the options for replacing it.

      I guess a wireless charging pad and bluetooth headphones will have to do. I can see which way the wind's blowing.

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    7. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would you prefer shitty color and contrast from LCD over perfect contrast and good color from AMOLED?
      I have no idea what your reasons are but I'm sure you have some.

    8. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      It is _slightly_ improved.

      See: https://www.gadgetsnow.com/com...

      The XZ already does the low light/high speed. Much cheaper, f2.0 vs f2.2 glass, and has a headphone jack.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    9. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by gaiageek · · Score: 1

      I understand why they want to reclaim the volume taken up by the 3,5mm jack, I really do. Even tiny amounts of internal space make a big difference for them in terms of capabilities that they can offer.

      Is the space really such an issue though? I don't think it is. I don't see how that tiny amount of saved volume achieved by eliminating a headphone jack allows some other feature that there wouldn't be room for otherwise -- especially given how stupidly big devices are these days. There's the false argument of eliminating the headphone jack to make the device thinner: the Samsung Galaxy A8 (2015) is 5.9mm thick and includes a headphone jack, compared to the iPhone XS at 7.7mm thick without one.

      I guess a wireless charging pad and bluetooth headphones will have to do. I can see which way the wind's blowing.

      IMO, the wind is blowing to try to sell more accessories with planned obsolescence. Wireless earbuds have tiny rechargeable batteries that will degrade over time, guaranteeing that you'll have to replace them in a few years -- if you manage not to lose them. I'm not saying wireless earbuds don't have value, as I can see how they'd be useful for working out, running, etc. But you don't need to eliminate the headphone jack in order to have that functionality.

    10. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by Frederic54 · · Score: 1

      But it has LDAC bluetooth which is pretty good

      --
      "Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
    11. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by Rei · · Score: 1

      No. You linked to a comparison between the XZ and the XZ2. Not the XZ2 Premium. But beyond that, that page doesn't even cover the key distinguishing feature as a category: the addition of an entire grayscale low-light camera whose data is correlated with the color camera.

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    12. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by Rei · · Score: 1

      The only meaningful weakness of LCD is that the blacks aren't as black as AMOLED (but they're more than black enough unless you're specifically looking for that problem, and the LCD generally has brighter whites) The problem with AMOLED isn't that it doesn't get as bright. It's not even burn-in, which AMOLEDs have and LCDs don't. It's that after 1-2 years the colour balance on AMOLEDs gets out of whack because the individual LED colours degrade at different rates, and the compensation schemes that have been attempted to try to counter this are imperfect at best.

      You can see some pictures here as an example comparing an AMOLED that's seen almost no usage with the exact same model that's seen 18 months of normal usage here. No, the problem has not gone away on modern AMOLEDs. If you change phones every year, maybe it's not a problem for you. But if you hang onto a phone for several years, most of that time is going to be on a phone with lousy colour balance.

      Most of my coworkers have AMOLED phones. I've stuck with LCD. Every now and then a conversation would crop up that would lead to both parties using their phone at the same time, and I've - on multiple occasions - gotten comments from people asking about my phone because they assumed it was some new model because the display looked so nice - even though it was older than theirs. Their displays surely looked great when they bought their phones. But AMOLED displays slowly turn to junk - slow enough that you don't notice it until you compare to either A) a new AMOLED phone, or B) a LCD phone (either new or old).

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
    13. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      Just because there are examples of things having a jack and being thin, waterproof, etc. isn't evidence it's not cheaper or simpler to forgo the jack.

      I think after Apple made the first move, everyone followed because of a "what have I got to lose" mentality. It made their devices cheaper and simpler, and if anyone complained it was "Apple did it first".

    14. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      There used to be waterproof phones with replaceable batteries. The quest for 0.1mm thinner phones killed it.

    15. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      XZs have done low light, high speed photography for 3 versions now.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    16. Re:Just ordered a Sony XZ2 Premium the other day. by Rei · · Score: 1

      Yes. But the approach by the XZ2 Premium is brand new. And as far as I am aware is not shared by any smartphone by any brand on the market today.

      To reiterate: XZ2 pairs a second, greyscale camera specifically optimized for low-light with its colour camera, so that the latter provides colour data while the former dramatically augments the intensity data. Greyscale cameras are more sensitive in low-light conditions than colour cameras.

      Comparing a phone without such a correlated greyscale camera to one with such a camera is comparing apples and oranges.

      --
      "Who the hell is Nietzche? It's a question stupid people are asking." -- Newscaster, "Jesus Christ Supercop"
  8. Flip-phone without a camera? by jabberw0k · · Score: 1

    More to the point for actual tech folks: Is it still possible to get a flip-phone without a camera? You know, a telephone that only does telephone things with an actual keyboard. I have a nice camera when I need one, and a computer for network stuff. Keep It Simple...

    1. Re:Flip-phone without a camera? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      More to the point for actual tech folks: Is it still possible to get a flip-phone without a camera?

      There are several cheap flip phones with no cameras. Samsung A157 for instance. Google "flip phone without a camera" for a list of several others.

      They also have a button you can push to make it say "Get off my lawn".

      Seriously, why do you care? If you don't want to use the camera, then just don't use it. If you are worried about the NSA spying, then just tape or epoxy it.

  9. Sensors are Still Too Small by mssymrvn · · Score: 3

    The Pixel 3 photo sensor is still only 1/2.3"... the same as my P&S camera from 2004. It's a phone. The photos are best for snapshots and, if the light is really good, the occasional "serious" photo. Who cares *that* much about image quality? It's still far better than a Kodak Disc camera. Or a 110. (Yes, I'm old.) And the phone is always in your pocket, ready to go.

    More important question: when are they going to stop making phones so damned huge? The Internet sucks on a phone. Stop trying to make it a do-all web terminal.

    1. Re:Sensors are Still Too Small by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      Okay, okay, I'm getting off your lawn!

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    2. Re:Sensors are Still Too Small by mssymrvn · · Score: 1

      I approve this message.

      Damn kids!

    3. Re:Sensors are Still Too Small by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Or a 110. There was one good 110 camera but it was still limited by the tiny 110 format film. I now wonder if I can find some 110 film locally.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    4. Re:Sensors are Still Too Small by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Take a look at this review of the Pixel 2 and the example photos in it:

      https://www.dxomark.com/google...

      That's not a snapshot camera. The results are excellent in a variety of difficult conditions. And presumably the Pixel 3 will be even better.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  10. What a horrible POS post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    For years other companies have been making phones with better cameras, it is not news. Making a selection of advertising disguised as news to claim otherwise is bs.
    Their cameras are fine.

  11. Best camera is the one you have with you .... by King_TJ · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Fact: I have no interest in carrying around another Android phone right now. The photos coming from the latest iPhones look excellent. As Apple pointed out in their presentation, even a cover photo for Time magazine was shot with one. So arguing whether or not a Google Pixel has a better camera is, IMO, a bit pointless. I mean, kudos to Google for making that good a camera in their phone .... I just fail to see how it changes anything? Very few people who prefer using iOS to Android's OS would switch products to a Pixel phone just because of the slightly better camera capabilities.

    If the camera functionality is THE most critical factor for you? I'm wondering why you didn't invest in an SLR to use for your photography instead? A good SLR will still handily beat even Google's Pixel 3 when it comes out.

    1. Re:Best camera is the one you have with you .... by 110010001000 · · Score: 0

      Exactly. No one is buying a Google Pixel phone anyway, so who cares how good its camera is? The Nokia Lumia phones from Microsoft had great cameras, but no one bought those either, so what does it matter?

    2. Re:Best camera is the one you have with you .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fact: I have no interest in carrying around another Android phone right now. The photos coming from the latest iPhones look excellent. As Apple pointed out in their presentation, even a cover photo for Time magazine was shot with one. So arguing whether or not a Google Pixel has a better camera is, IMO, a bit pointless. I mean, kudos to Google for making that good a camera in their phone .... I just fail to see how it changes anything? Very few people who prefer using iOS to Android's OS would switch products to a Pixel phone just because of the slightly better camera capabilities.

      If the camera functionality is THE most critical factor for you? I'm wondering why you didn't invest in an SLR to use for your photography instead? A good SLR will still handily beat even Google's Pixel 3 when it comes out.

      Holy shit.... so many words. TLDR: Fanbois will still be fanbois despite being proved technically inferior.

    3. Re:Best camera is the one you have with you .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the record, this is a posting by "msmash". It has nothing to do with any particular subject, they just exist to say less-than-positive things about Apple. It's basically the underlying thread and primary motivation of all their Apple-related posts.

    4. Re:Best camera is the one you have with you .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I mean those time covers really look like shitty phone photos. I think this is more about Times quality slipping in a desperate bid to stay relevant more than anything else.

      Just look at those covers. It’s a bit of a shame.

    5. Re:Best camera is the one you have with you .... by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      So you brought your shit camera instead of your good one and you whiffed the shot. Aren't you kicking yourself.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    6. Re:Best camera is the one you have with you .... by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      I just fail to see how it changes anything?

      Because people care very much about the camera in their phone. I suspect the billions in R&D going into smartphone photography isn't based on a hunch.

      Very few people who prefer using iOS to Android's OS would switch products to a Pixel phone just because of the slightly better camera capabilities.

      You could say the same about any feature. Very few people will switch to Android if it's slightly faster. Slightly easier to use. And so on. If that's true Google should just give up.

      I'm wondering why you didn't invest in an SLR to use for your photography instead?

      Do you really need to ask why I don't pack around an SLR in a fanny pack with me everywhere I go? Why I don't like to spend an hour uploading the photos from my SLR to my computer, and then uploading those pictures to the cloud? I could go on, but I think you get the point.

    7. Re:Best camera is the one you have with you .... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      For some reason Apple phones always have a red tint to their photos. You can see it very clearly in this comparison: https://www.dxomark.com/huawei...

      Also look at the low light performance. If you like doing night time city shots (I do) then the iPhone's performance is lacking. There is a lot of bloom, artificial smoothing, the colours go completely weird and the highlight/lowlight detail is very limited.

      If you really need iOS then okay, your choices are limited, but otherwise there is still a lot of competition among smartphone cameras and the differences are significant enough for people to care.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  12. Pixel camera by Hadlock · · Score: 1

    My girlfriend has the latest iPhone through her work, I have the latest Pixel, whenever we go to use her camera, her comment is "no, use your phone, it takes better photos". We discovered this pretty early on in our relationship, her phone only comes out for photos if mine is across the room or has run out of battery.
     
    If it weren't for the camera, I would just buy any standard $200-class android phone, but since the Pixel takes such fantastic photos, it is worth the extra $400 to have a high quality camera built in to the phone for wherever I go.
     
    To those making the "just take an SLR with you" well great, we own an SLR, it lives in the closet and comes out for weddings and that is just about it. You get 99% of the quality with 500% more compactness. No contest.
     
    Looking forward to the Pixel 3, my display is pretty scratched at this point (only phone where this has ever been a problem since the Nexus S) and the battery is fully worn out.

    --
    moox. for a new generation.
    1. Re:Pixel camera by Corbets · · Score: 1

      One wonders, if you discovered this pretty early in your relationship, and she’s got the latest iPhone, if you’re actually aware that a new iPhone was announced last week.

    2. Re:Pixel camera by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Informative

      My girlfriend has the latest iPhone through her work, I have the latest Pixel, whenever we go to use her camera, her comment is "no, use your phone, it takes better photos".

      It may just be that she's outsmarted you....in that if YOU are taking all the pics with your camera, then SHE is more likely to be IN all of the pictures taken when ya'll are out....?

      The curse of the photographer, you're never in that many pictures since you're behind the camera 99% of the time.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    3. Re:Pixel camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it weren't for the camera, I would just buy any standard $200-class android phone, but since the Pixel takes such fantastic photos, it is worth the extra $400 to have a high quality camera built in to the phone for wherever I go.

      Well, there you have it, everyone. If anyone else is wondering why there are ever articles about the relative quality of phones' cameras, this dude just laid it out in explicit, shocking, gory detail.

      You can disagree with the guy, but you can't take away his wallet's votes.

    4. Re:Pixel camera by sexconker · · Score: 1

      My girlfriend

      We discovered this pretty early on in our relationship

      we own an SLR, it lives in the closet and comes out for weddings and that is just about it.

      You've been with here long enough to have a "pretty early on" period of your relationship, you consider an SLR camera to be joint property, and multiple weddings have been attended by one or both of you during your relationship, yet she's still only your girlfriend?

      How many more times are you going to make her go through one of her friends' weddings?
      How many more times will she have to act happy for someone else while wondering if she'll ever get her turn?
      How many more times will she have to laugh off the "So when are you two finally going to get married?" question instead of honestly answering "I don't know and that scares me."?
      How many more times will she have to look for, try on, and buy a dress she's not happy with and will wear only once?
      How many more nights will she have to spend with fake people making small talk about their fake lives and careers?
      How many more times will she hear "You're still young, you have plenty of time to figure it out."?
      How long until she's feels she wasted her 30s just like she already feels she wasted her 20s?

      Do you really think the handful of times it's come up casually counts as "talking about it"? And do you really think she meant it when she dodged by saying she doesn't want/need to get married? Do you know the kind of shit she gets from her parents? Oh, everything's "fine"? How'd that work out the last time she said she was "fine"? About as well as when she said you didn't need to get her anything or do anything special for her birthday / Valentine's Day / Christmas, etc. and you actually took that at face value?

      Why won't you commit?

    5. Re:Pixel camera by Malc · · Score: 1

      How many people heard that DLSRs take better pictures, so they went out and bought the cheapest entry level model with a kit lens? It's the glass stupid. If you want good photos, you have to put good glass on that SLR. I think my first lens cost 50% more than the camera body, and it was worth every penny. I don't mind carry it around either, but that's a personal preference.

    6. Re:Pixel camera by Somervillain · · Score: 1

      To those making the "just take an SLR with you" well great, we own an SLR, it lives in the closet and comes out for weddings and that is just about it. You get 99% of the quality with 500% more compactness. No contest.

      Sorry. You're just wrong about that. If you have a modern DSLR, it should take substantially better photos, especially when you know what you're doing. I own a Pixel 2. It takes serviceable photos. It is NOTHING compared to my Canon 6Dmark2 and every lens I've used on it, especially in anything other than full sun. Yes, at the beach, mid-afternoon, it's about 99% as good as a lens at the exact same focal length. Every other situation, a full-frame or even cropped sensor DSLR with a good lens will beat it by a huge margin. I am not even a professional, just a dad taking pics of his kids.

      However, don't take my word for it. Look at what professionals do. If it was really 99% of the quality, all movies would be shot on tiny cameras with the Pixel 2's sensor. Every professional photographer would use one.

      Trust me, no one wants to carry around a huge, heavy, expensive camera. Every professional does because they know it takes much better pictures than your Pixel 2. If a smartphone could take a photo 99% as good, we'd all be using much smaller and much cheaper cameras.

      I take photos daily with a DSLR. I take photos nearly daily with a Pixel 2. View them in a standard computer monitor and the DSLR image quality is very clearly MUCH better.

      Saying a pixel 2, 3, or any other phone eliminates the need for a real camera is about as intelligent as saying an eBike replaces the need for a car, so why does anyone buy cars these days? eBikes are great supplemental vehicles, but no replacement for cars. No one would dispute that. Your Pixel 2 takes nice photos, but it's no substitute for a real camera. If you can't see that, you're viewing photos on a 25 year old monitor or you really have no clue how to use a camera.

    7. Re:Pixel camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You get 99% of the quality with 500% more compactness.
       
      You must not know shit about photography if this is in any way true about what you do with your camera or you have a camera that's at least 15 years old. You probably shouldn't even own a camera at the rate you're going.

    8. Re:Pixel camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I know some photographers who go out of their way to use kit lenses to prove this wrong. One of the better astrophotographers I follow uses a couple Canon T3i cameras and a number of his early photographs use kit lenses. Clueless nutsacks like Hadlock just suck a big old dick when it comes to pressing a shutter release.

      Yeah, I know not everyone wants to get that much into photography. Most photographs in the digital age are throw away and that's being generous. But to make wild claims about the technology because one can't be bothered to learn how to use it properly is a damn shame.

    9. Re:Pixel camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The curse of the photographer, you're never in that many pictures since you're behind the camera 99% of the time.

      Curse? It's why I have the camera with me in the first place.

    10. Re:Pixel camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To those making the "just take an SLR with you" well great, we own an SLR, it lives in the closet and comes out for weddings and that is just about it. You get 99% of the quality with 500% more compactness. No contest.

      Sounds like you need to learn how to use your SLR and get out more to use it. I would say that you might want a second SLR so you can both have something to use without fighting over it, but it sounds like she isn't interested in doing anything herself if she can get you to do it. Maybe look around for a new girlfriend when you're out shopping for new lenses?

      Pro Tip: Contrary to popular opinion, relationships between users of different camera systems work best. Less conflict over who gets to use the better gear.

  13. bokeh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Yeah. Sure.

  14. 50/25 FPS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apple still wins out as being one of the few cameras that can support European broadcast frame rates in its video.

  15. Good luck ramming that down your pants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Look, everyone has their phone with them nearly all... the... time, and it is simply not practical for most people to carry around a DSLR or even a moderately sized P&S everywhere they go. Thus, even if one prefers a "real" camera, they WILL run into situations where they have only their phone, period. That's life. Thus, they will end up being much happier if the (phone) camera they have with them is one of the best available.

    Saying "just buy a camera, 'nuff said" is all very well and good, but does NOTHING to solve the above problem. You can buy a dozen "real" cameras, but unless you ram one down your pants you might not have it with you at that unexpected moment when you really want to capture an image.

    1. Re:Good luck ramming that down your pants by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      You can buy a dozen "real" cameras, but unless you ram one down your pants you might not have it with you at that unexpected moment when you really want to capture an image.

      Why do you want to have pictures down in your pants?

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  16. Pixel 3? by davebarnes · · Score: 1

    But, Tim Cook does not sell the Pixel 3.
    So, what is the point of it?

    --
    Dave Barnes 9 breweries within walking distance of my house
  17. That's what she said! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    eom

    1. Re:That's what she said! by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      Why do I have all of these pictures of hot grits?

  18. i got a $2000 camera 8 years ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    nowadays i can buy a $200 used android phone and get better results, plus it's a fully functional phone, a computer in its own right. there's still a time and place for great cameras, but you already carry a phone around anyway, so it's nice the cameras on smartphones are only getting better and better over time.

  19. Workflow on smartphones vs "real" cameras by sjbe · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The iPhone camera has never been a superior camera to real full fledged digital cameras (of their time).

    Smartphone cameras don't (usually) make superior images to "real" cameras. But smartphone cameras do several things FAR better than "real" cameras, most related to work flow for certain types of tasks.

    1) Far better ability to share and back up images via the internet. Any picture I snap with my smartphone is automatically backed up to the cloud and can be shared immediately via email, text message, or social media. Not so much for "real" cameras which still require plugging in a cable or pulling out an SD card and finding a PC somewhere. They are seriously terrible at this and it's costing them dearly in sales against smartphones.
    2) Bigger and more useful screens to view and edit images. Better touch screens too.
    3) Fit in my pocket. I can carry my smartphone almost everywhere. Not so much for my bulky "real" camera. The best camera is the one you have with you. I'm not lugging a Sony A9 with a 70-200F2.8 around very often - the thing weighs the better part of 2kg and is bulky as heck. Awesome under the right circumstances and yes it makes better images but that comes at a cost both financial and in work flow. Hard to justify if you aren't getting paid to take pictures. Even compact point and shoot cameras like the RX100 which make great images are still bulkier than my smartphone and can't do anything else besides take images.
    4) Has a FAR more elegant interface for basic shooting. Seriously the interfaces on interchangeable lens cameras are universally awful and almost useless for anything more than basic chimping.
    5) Unless you get into some pretty pricey gear smartphones often actually do as good or better on video than a shocking number of "real" cameras for certain applications.

    So called "real" cameras get better images (if you know what you are doing) but there is a LOT of overhead in achieving that. The work flow for basic point and shoot picture taking and image sharing is vastly superior on smartphones than any "real" camera. No they can't get the best possible image in most cases but most of the time that's not important to most people. There is a reason why the point and shoot camera market has basically died despite the fact that they can produce measurably better images. Image quality is NOT the only thing that matters for most people most of the time. The overhead, shitty work flow, and bulky equipment required to achieve these (usually marginally) better images with "real" cameras is simply not worth the hassle. And I say this as someone who is a photography enthusiast with a lot of very expensive camera bodies and lenses.

    1. Re:Workflow on smartphones vs "real" cameras by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter which camera is better.

      The best camera is the one you have with you if you need to take a picture.

    2. Re:Workflow on smartphones vs "real" cameras by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      Mod parent +1 Insightful.

      You've summarized all the points beautifully. While I have a dedicated Canon Digital Rebel it is far more practical / convenient to just use the smart phone I do have with me to take pictures when I *don't* have the Rebel with me. Go figure! :-)

      "The best camera is the one you have when you need it."

    3. Re:Workflow on smartphones vs "real" cameras by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is why I take a real camera with me when I need to take pictures. The smartphone is just there for when I want to take a quick snapshot. Which one is better still matters, at least to me.

    4. Re:Workflow on smartphones vs "real" cameras by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol, my real camera is an ancient 5MP P&S. With a HUGE lens, 10x optical zoom and better pics than the 12MP camera.

      workflow? I don't do any work on the the camera. Take pictures, pop card into computer and move/do whatever. Not like mailing myself a bunch of pictures off the phone is quicker or easier.

    5. Re:Workflow on smartphones vs "real" cameras by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A Digital Rebel is far from a real camera.

    6. Re:Workflow on smartphones vs "real" cameras by Falos · · Score: 1

      - good enough
      - not tedious
      - easy to use, simple
      - physical/digital management

      Sure, I'm down with poo-pooing "real" cameras for everyday use. They're superfluous, right? I'm down with regarding smartphone cameras collectively as "adequate for our needs".

      Then I trust that means we'll stop fucking circlejerking about them?

      To be fair, it's the "journalists" who started it. The same fuckwads who need to fill 800 words after holding it for 30 seconds at an expo, and so regale us with size specs, the glass shell, how thin it is, how it feels to press the fucking side buttons. Or the Gold Monster Cables camera you occasionally use for a blurry food pic or bathroom selfie.

      When people come into the shop, they don't stop and say "well, it's not thin enough". They might want to know about the 4000mAh battery, though. And yes, they're interested in buying a screenshield+case right away, negating whatever bevel/ultrathin fetish the expo-ecosystem was frenzying.

      I'm beginning to interpret the origin of this bullshit as something that may resemble gaming's preorder phenomenon; an industry's obsession (a financially logical one) with hype, prehype, overhype, all hype, gotta go hype, hypey hyperhype. And eyeball-hungry news joints riding the jetsream.

    7. Re:Workflow on smartphones vs "real" cameras by Somervillain · · Score: 0

      4) Has a FAR more elegant interface for basic shooting. Seriously the interfaces on interchangeable lens cameras are universally awful and almost useless for anything more than basic chimping.

      I find the reverse. On my Canon, there are knobs for everything I adjust. It is much easier to adjust the settings you actually care about on a DSLR (or any pro-grade mirrorless) because it has dedicated hardware controls. Either those settings are completely hidden from you or you have to download special apps which are far less elegant.

      I strongly agree with your first point, but this point is absolute nonsense. I can't speak for your Sony a9, but I have owned 4 Canon bodies and the interface is far more functional than android or ios.

      It's not Canon/Nikon/Sony's fault if you never bothered to learn how to use a camera correctly. Once you do, you'll appreciate how much better those dials are than a touch interface.

      Real cameras take better pictures. If you think otherwise, you really need to learn how to use your camera. I've never met a knowledgeable professional who disagrees. We don't buy these expensive, bulky cameras for show. They really do take MUCH better pictures.

      The camera manufacturers have a lot to learn from Google and Apple about usability, particularly with cloud integration, but their quality advantage is indisputable.

    8. Re:Workflow on smartphones vs "real" cameras by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      Lol at your attempt at camera-shaming the OP.

    9. Re:Workflow on smartphones vs "real" cameras by David_Hart · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter which camera is better.

      The best camera is the one you have with you if you need to take a picture.

      True. But... the easiest way to lose your latest photos is to forget your unlock code on your cell phone. Never had this problem with a digital camera...

      Yes, I should have synced or backed up to the cloud, but timing... Fortunately I had photos on my camera as well...

    10. Re: Workflow on smartphones vs "real" cameras by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Best practice is just not to have a lock code on your phone. Don't use a phone for financial things. I suppose people could order things from Amazon delivered to my house for a little while if they stole my phone. Then they'd be out of luck.

      I don't have an online relationship with any of the businesses I pay bills to, or bank with. I like affixing stamps to my bills.

        Ironically, the website I ordered blank printed checks from has started spamming me and probably thinks they have an online relationship with me.

  20. Not worth the bother by sjbe · · Score: 1

    If there is an innovative disruptive Silicon Valley genius out there who wants to do something, how about a really cheap, reliable cell phone that JUST makes calls and texts?

    No money in it. Seriously the number of people who would actually buy this is so small that it is not really worth addressing. It's cheaper to just include the camera and if the user doesn't want it they don't have to use it.

    1. Re:Not worth the bother by Scarletdown · · Score: 1

      Besides, go to any thrift store or yard sale, and chances are there will be plenty of old cell phones that just make calls, and may or may not have other features; and for super cheap as well. There is plenty of supply to meet the small demand.

      --
      This space unintentionally left blank.
  21. IIRC by Tsolias · · Score: 4, Funny

    iPhone's camera is made by Sony.
    It's obviously not apple, because apple barely makes anything.

  22. The Verge? Oh. Thought we were talking serious... by Chas · · Score: 1

    The Verge is roughly The National Enquirer of Tech Journalism.

    Basically you only read their shit if you're a voracious reader, the website was auto-loaded by some ad malware and your internet went down immediately afterward.

    Otherwise, you'd get more value out of trying to read used toilet paper.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  23. The best camera? That's easy! ... by zarmanto · · Score: 1

    I've known several extremely talented photographers over the years, so I don't actually remember which one passed along this tidbit of wisdom... but it stuck with me. No matter how much money you spend on cameras and flashes and props and all that... the very best camera is always incredibly easy to identify: Simply put, it's the one you have with you.

    In the long run, it really doesn't matter how much "better" that other camera that you left at home (or didn't buy) is; if that amazing, potentially award winning shot is in front of you right now, just snap the picture with whatever you have. If your kids are being incredibly cute right now, snap the picture. If your wife is looking particularly beautiful right at this moment, just snap the damned picture. And be happy that you were there to enjoy that moment, when it came.

    1. Re:The best camera? That's easy! ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So, um, then wouldn't it stand to reason that you might want to put some effort into choosing which camera to bring with you? If the camera you brought can't get the shot, then it's like you don't have a camera at all. Not that it really matters all that much when it comes to choosing between phone cameras, but that "tidbit of wisdom" is just propaganda used to make people feel better about settling for a lesser option instead of something more capable (like the "a great photographer can take great pictures with a pinhole camera" nonsense). Everything has tradeoffs, make the best choice for your situation and then work with what you have. But don't pretend that there are no better options available because you chose not to use them - you just accepted certain limitations in exchange for convenience. And if that's what you need, then you're way past the point of caring about what the "best" of anything is because it is no longer relevant to your situation. Part of becoming an "extremely talented photographer" is understanding limitations and learning how to prepare so that they don't keep you from getting the shot. Every experience is filled with successes and failures, all of which provides opportunities to learn and grow. "The one you have with you" only applies in the moment; the rest of the time, what is best is very much open for debate.

      Seriously, so much of this photography "wisdom" is utter bullshit that gets used by and against zealots to make people feel smarter than other smug idiots. Define your requirements, choose your gear accordingly, and don't worry about what the other guy is using. You are not perfect, your gear is not perfect, and your shots aren't perfect. Everything can be better, but getting there may not be easy or practical.

  24. iPhone user: camera is crap by Dr.+Evil · · Score: 1

    It's immensely frustrating and has been going on for years.

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread/7691303?page=67

    My 4s took better shots. Even when I look at them on my 6s+ display. I see people complaining about the 7 and 8 with the same issues, and I immediately can tell an iPhone photo when somebody sends it to me.

    In anything other than bright daylight, the watercolor effect on the images due to compression are horrible.

    I would hate to have to give up the iPhone because I'm sick of the photos of my children looking embarrassingly bad, but the privacy issues around Google are difficult to accept.

    Loading up the raw photo apps is probably the right way to go, but it's such a pain in the butt.

  25. Flaws in point and shoots by sjbe · · Score: 2

    Compact point and shoots still have _crappy_ glass. Better than a cell phone, but still crap.

    That's not true at all. There are some point and shoots with very good quality glass. Far better than smartphones in the right hands. The problem point and shoots have is that their workflow after the picture is taken SUCKS and they are one trick ponies. They take good pictures just fine but then what? They offer nothing after that. With a smartphone I can edit the photo, add filters, back it up to the cloud, share it with my friends, post to social media, all within seconds. And I have a device that does other things. The makers of point and shoot cameras have completely shit the bed in realizing that for these cameras it's the workflow that matters more than the image. They never bothered to make them web connected, give them editing and social media tools, etc which would actually make the possibly worth bothering with. They still live in the SD card to a PC world which smartphones made obsolete years ago.

    If they wanted to make a point and shoot relevant again it should have LTE and wifi. It should back up to dropbox and the cloud. It should have a big and good touch screen. High quality glass. GPS and location tagging. Seamless transfer to tablets. It should have image processing better than that on a smartphone. Image cataloging. Flip screens for vlogging. It should have 4K video at high frame rates and tools to actually do something useful with it IN CAMERA. All this should be automated to a high degree in a compact size and the cost cannot be more than a smartphone. Better images only matter when you can actually use them to do what you want and taking the picture is just the start. Nobody wants a point and shoot camera that can only take pictures and can't do anything in post. Smartphone makers understand this and camera makers remain utterly clueless about it.

    Oh and a LOT of these complaints apply to high end pro cameras too. They also have shit interfaces and terrible connectivity and work flow. Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc all persist with the delusion that only image quality and physical ergonomics matter. And this myopia will cost them dearly.

    1. Re:Flaws in point and shoots by iampiti · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't all these workflow problems if the cameras just transferred the image instantly to your smartphone (will you will be carrying anyways)?
      I don't know jack about regular cameras but someone has to have done something like this. Transferring the photos via bluetooth or something.

    2. Re: Flaws in point and shoots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most modern mirrorless / DSLRs cameras have this already, but usually reduce the size of images. The raw images from these 50Mpx14bit cameras are huge and meant to be further processed - like film of old.

    3. Re: Flaws in point and shoots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Samsung Galaxy NX Android-driven DSLR existed at one point, I got to use and develop (Android app) on one a while back and made me hopeful that Android on a camera becomes the norm. However apparently the demand wasn't big enough for Samsung to continue making it.

    4. Re:Flaws in point and shoots by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The thing that tends to limit point-and-shoot cameras is the crappy software. Software is also what makes phone cameras great.

      If you could get a point-and-shoot that had, say, the computational photography stuff in a Google Pixel phone it would be awesome. But you can't, so there is a very good chance that despite the smaller sensor and technically worse optics the Pixel will give you a better photo.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  26. Apple is a software company by sjbe · · Score: 1

    It's obviously not apple, because apple barely makes anything.

    Apple makes software. They are a software company. People seem to have a hard time with this concept but it's true. Companies are what they make and what Apple makes and sets their products apart is software. The hardware in an iPhone is really barely different than any similar Android phone. A Mac's hardware is nearly identical to any Windows PC. What Apple sells people is the software in a pretty box. People who think Apple is a hardware company don't understand their business model.

    1. Re:Apple is a software company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For a software company they sure do suck at software.

    2. Re:Apple is a software company by Tsolias · · Score: 1

      For a software company, they surely don't write a lot of their software.

  27. The Verge? by EvilSS · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The same Verge that posted, defended, and, eventually, took down this How to build a PC video while complaining that the critics were all just a bunch of racists? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jciJ39djxC4

    Yea, pardon me if I really don't trust their judgement.

    --
    I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    1. Re:The Verge? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same Verge that posted, defended, and, eventually, took down this How to build a PC video while complaining that the critics were all just a bunch of racists? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jciJ39djxC4

      Yea, pardon me if I really don't trust their judgement.

      Well I don’t trust your judgement either, so... damn, now what.

    2. Re:The Verge? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Then go with someone more respected: https://www.dxomark.com/catego...

    3. Re:The Verge? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      They claimed that their staff got some racist abuse. Since the original video is gone we can't check the comments on it, but from the video you linked to:

      Darkfire gaming
      He dosnt know because he is blackï

      w00ly mamooth
      lol n!gs trying to build pcs

      It was a terrible video and all that, but is there really any need to exaggerate their statement about it into a straw man and then link to a video that proves you wrong anyway?

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    4. Re:The Verge? by EvilSS · · Score: 1

      Yes, they got some, and they used it as an excuse to dismiss all criticism of the video. Even after pulling the video the host blamed everyone include "a bunch of angry nerds" and never admitted his complete fuckup of a build guide.

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    5. Re:The Verge? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      It was a pretty epic fuck-up... I don't know how that ever got past review. They could have just asked one of the many, many Youtube channels that does it all day all week to help them out.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    6. Re:The Verge? by EvilSS · · Score: 1

      Yea but according to the Verge tech Youtubers aren't journalists so reaching out to them would have been sinking too low for their journalistic integrity.

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
  28. Best peice of advice... by avandesande · · Score: 1

    Just 'Be Brave' and suck it up!

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
  29. Not exactly by garote · · Score: 1

    Good digital cameras do not exist in a vacuum, and manufacturers have known this for a dozen years and have really compensated for it.

    1. A good digital camera these days will pair with your smartphone, such that every time you snap a picture, one or more versions of it appear on the phone, potentially also triggering any number of secondary actions like watermarking, cropping, and uploading to multiple services. My favorite app for this purpose is "shuttersnitch".

    2. In much the same way you can pair the camera with a tablet, such as an iPad, and get a very large screen indeed for previews, and use it from several feet away. The UI argument is a moot point, given the diversity of options, except:

    3. "Ease of use" may not be what you think it is, if you're coming from the smartphone camera world. A purpose-built digital camera can go from OFF, to zoomed, precisely focused, and taking the picture, in less than a second. That includes zooming to the edge of, say, a 400mm lens: You just turn a large, easily accessible physical ring. See how long it takes to do the finger-spread or slider-drag equivalent on a smartphone -- even just to adjust the zoom slightly.

    4. If you think a real camera only produces "marginally better" photos in most situations, try using a real camera with an f1.4 full-frame lens in a dimly lit room. Or try catching the action at a soccer game with even a reasonably priced 70-200mm lens like the Canon f/4.

    The smartphone has one real thing going for it: Miniaturization. That is also its Achilles heel, because you simply cannot grab as much light on a smaller surface area. But as I pointed out earlier, the direct comparison doesn't even make sense. Almost ALL people who seriously use a good purpose-built camera ALSO own a smartphone, and have known how to integrate the two for years.

    1. Re:Not exactly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For truly "serious" photographers, none of those things matter nearly as much as being able to get as many photons to as many silicon photosites as quickly as possible.

      Which is why a Phase One IQ3 costs 50 grand without lens and can't do any of the the above except via expensive tethering software tied to a PC.

  30. Microsoft 950XL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Still the best, continuum also

    Might as well wait till WPA3 right !

  31. Nobody cares by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    If you want a digital camera, or a film camera, or even a motion picture camera ...

    Buy one.

    This is a smartphone. If you're using it for other things, you probably shouldn't.

    I'll be honest, I've actually used a lot of the features of smartphones, but it wasn't why I bought that phone.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  32. What is "Best"? by kenwd0elq · · Score: 1

    I don't know how "best" might be defined. Pixels? Resolution? Color quality? At some point, when all the phone cameras are taking good photographs, I don't think it matters much. My iPhone 8 takes very good pictures. My Essential PH1 phone takes very good pictures. Which one is better? Damn if I can tell.

    The best camera is the one you have with you all the time; you can have the most phenomenal camera in the universe in your closet at home, but the one you have is better than the one over there. And at some point, people are just arguing over trivial bragging rights.

  33. The Verge????? by Bradac_55 · · Score: 1

    Wait when did sane technical people start treating the Verge like a big boy website ?

  34. Post processing image quality (usually) by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't all these workflow problems if the cameras just transferred the image instantly to your smartphone (will you will be carrying anyways)?

    Yes and no. It would be a quick fix and it's shocking that they cannot already do it efficiently. Even my Sony A9 which gets awesome images makes it a huge pain in the ass to get the pictures where I need them after taking them. It has wifi but the software to connect to it SUCKS. It has an ethernet RJ45 port built in that I cannot do anything but connect to an FTP server with!?! WTF? This isn't the 1990s... But even if they could transfer quickly the problem for dedicated cameras remains. Why would I carry a camera that in most cases takes at best marginally better images than my smartphone if it has no other advantages? Most people want a "good enough" image most of the time and it's the post processing efficiency that actually matters most.

    I don't know jack about regular cameras but someone has to have done something like this. Transferring the photos via bluetooth or something.

    Here's the funny thing. The cameras routinely already have wifi, bluetooth, gps, usb, (sometimes) ethernet, etc. My Sony mirrorless already has all that and more. It's really just a question of software. But the engineers making these cameras are utter fuckwits about this topic. I should be able to have my images back up to the cloud in real time as I'm taking them. The hardware is already in my camera to do it. I should be able to crop, filter, and share *in camera*. It's just software that is required. They need to make it as easy as humanly possible to take amazing images and then to do something but they are still stuck with thinking we are back in the days of film. If I'm going to lug around a purpose built camera it has to be a category killer in every way, including post processing to make it worth the bother. It has to be BETTER than a smartphone for image taking AND processing. But somehow smartphones are kicking the ass of cameras in post processing in almost every imaginable way.

  35. It's about the software by sjbe · · Score: 1

    The thing that tends to limit point-and-shoot cameras is the crappy software. Software is also what makes phone cameras great.

    Exactly. This is exactly right. The hardware in the dedicated camera (point and shoot as well as pro cameras) is more than good enough but the software for interfacing and post processing is absolutely horrible. Doesn't matter which camera vendor you are talking about either - they are all terrible.

    If you could get a point-and-shoot that had, say, the computational photography stuff in a Google Pixel phone it would be awesome. But you can't, so there is a very good chance that despite the smaller sensor and technically worse optics the Pixel will give you a better photo.

    I don't think I could have said it better. Why bother carrying a dedicated camera if my phone takes good enough image quality and has vastly better post processing?

  36. Yes exactly by sjbe · · Score: 1

    1. A good digital camera these days will pair with your smartphone, such that every time you snap a picture, one or more versions of it appear on the phone, potentially also triggering any number of secondary actions like watermarking, cropping, and uploading to multiple services. My favorite app for this purpose is "shuttersnitch".

    Good digital cameras (and I own several) do nothing of the sort out of the box and the software provided with them to share images is almost universally terrible. I shouldn't have to invest in third party applications to get a useful work flow. And you are missing the point. Aside from professional photographers, if you have to pair the camera to a smartphone or tablet to get useful workflows then for most people for most circumstance it's better for them to just carry the phone or tablet and drop the camera entirely. And that is EXACTLY what has happened to the point and shoot market. The camera needs to be BETTER as a standalone device for image manipulation, computational photography, post processing, and image sharing than smartphones but currently they are often way behind.

    2. In much the same way you can pair the camera with a tablet, such as an iPad, and get a very large screen indeed for previews, and use it from several feet away. The UI argument is a moot point, given the diversity of options, except:

    Bullshit the UI argument is moot. If I have to pair it with a phone or a tablet to get a useful preview screen and post processing tools then 99% of users will be better off dropping the dedicate camera entirely and just using the pretty darn good camera in the phone/tablet. It's only a tiny fraction of photographers that actually need the extra imaging capabilities of a dedicated camera. If the camera cannot do a better job with image quality AND post processing than a phone then the cameras are going to lose every time. This is what happened to point and shoot cameras. They have basically died as a market because smartphones have images that are almost as good, video that is often better, are easier to use, and can do other things as well.

    Furthermore have you actually used the software interfaces on Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc ILCs? They are horrible. I primarily shoot Sony and their menu systems are an abomination. Their Playmemories software almost could not be more awkward to use. Canon and Nikon aren't meaningfully better either. All of them are trapped in the past and need some serious lessons in software UI design.

    3. "Ease of use" may not be what you think it is, if you're coming from the smartphone camera world. A purpose-built digital camera can go from OFF, to zoomed, precisely focused, and taking the picture, in less than a second. That includes zooming to the edge of, say, a 400mm lens: You just turn a large, easily accessible physical ring. See how long it takes to do the finger-spread or slider-drag equivalent on a smartphone -- even just to adjust the zoom slightly.

    You are only talking about the actual image capture which is maybe 20% of the work. Purpose built cameras generally do this just fine. It's the image sharing and post processing IN CAMERA where they shit the bed. Smartphones often do FAR better computational photography (particularly for video) than purpose built cameras and they are light years ahead in image sharing, software interface, and post processing tools. The only thing dedicated cameras reliably do better is get better image quality and only then in the hands of someone who actually knows what they are doing and has the right glass.

    4. If you think a real camera only produces "marginally better" photos in most situations, try using a real camera with an f1.4 full-frame lens in a dimly lit room. Or try catching the action at a soccer game with even a reasonably priced 70-200mm lens like the Canon f/4.

    That isn't what I said. I do all of these things and have even gotten

    1. Re:Yes exactly by garote · · Score: 1

      Well shit, man, you should have said you meant "random consumer grade camera" when you wrote "real camera", and "random jerk off the street" when you meant "photographer". That would have avoided a lot of angsty TL;DR writing!

    2. Re:Yes exactly by sjbe · · Score: 1

      Well shit, man, you should have said you meant "random consumer grade camera" when you wrote "real camera", and "random jerk off the street" when you meant "photographer".

      Oh I get it, you are trolling. My bad for confusing you with someone with an actual interest in photography.

    3. Re:Yes exactly by garote · · Score: 1

      *shrug*
        If you can gripe needlessly into anonymous online dumpsters, so can I.

  37. Serious photographers by sjbe · · Score: 1

    For truly "serious" photographers, none of those things matter nearly as much as being able to get as many photons to as many silicon photosites as quickly as possible.

    If you think that then you don't know many serious photographers. Being a serious photographer is far more complicated than having the biggest possible glass and most pixels.

    Which is why a Phase One IQ3 costs 50 grand without lens and can't do any of the the above except via expensive tethering software tied to a PC.

    The Phase One products are aimed at a tiny fraction of a fraction of the market even among professional photographers. Most people that get paid for their photos do not use equipment like this and they certainly are not the demarcation line for what makes a "serious photographer".

  38. Image quality isn't everything (usually) by sjbe · · Score: 1

    I strongly agree with your first point, but this point is absolute nonsense. I can't speak for your Sony a9, but I have owned 4 Canon bodies and the interface is far more functional than android or ios.

    Sigh... No it is not. I'm not talking about the act of capturing the image. Dedicated cameras mostly handle the actual image capture just fine. I'm talking about everything before and after and particularly about the software. I've used Canon's too and their software UI is just as bad as anyone else. Setting up your camera to get a good work flow requires a lot of training and needless configuration of the software. Doesn't matter which camera maker you prefer, they are all pretty bad. Sony, Nikon, Canon, Fuji, doesn't matter - their UIs suck. Some are marginally better than others but none are good. But as bad as that is it is the post processing interface and functionality where they really shit the bed. Smartphones run rings around dedicated cameras for everything after the picture is taken and the sad thing is that the reason is just that they have better software for that which could be put into dedicated cameras too. There is no technical limitation on what "real" cameras can do but just failings of the engineering teams designing the things.

    Real cameras take better pictures. If you think otherwise, you really need to learn how to use your camera. I've never met a knowledgeable professional who disagrees. We don't buy these expensive, bulky cameras for show. They really do take MUCH better pictures.

    No, they CAN take better pictures in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. For most people a smartphone camera is more than adequate and is far easier to use. And I know photographers that can reliably get better images from a shitty toy camera than most people can with the fanciest gear money can buy because skill matters.

    What I have failed to communicate is that this advantage in image quality is really the ONLY thing they do better and that is NOT enough. Int a lot of cases it doesn't matter much at all. My Sony A9 should be able to do everything and more than my smartphone can do with an image IN CAMERA and it cannot. I should be able to out of the box share images to dropbox or instagram or facebook with minimal configuration. I should be able to crop, filter, adjust and process images in camera. I should be able to email, text or share images. And it needs to do these things as well as or better than my smartphone. The point and shoot camera market died because the improved image quality is only a piece of the puzzle and often not the most important piece.

    If you are a pro shooting for the cover of Nat Geo then yeah, image quality trumps everything else. The overwhelming majority of photos and photographers do not fall into this category most of the time and camera makers forget that at their peril.