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Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (newyorker.com)

Digitization promises to make medical care easier and more efficient. But are screens coming between doctors and patients? Here's an excerpt by Atul Gawande of The New Yorker, which talks about the deployment of Epic, a new medical software which cost Partners HealthCare a staggering $1.6 billion, panned out: On May 30, 2015, the Phase One Go-Live began. My hospital and clinics reduced the number of admissions and appointment slots for two weeks while the staff navigated the new system. For another two weeks, my department doubled the time allocated for appointments and procedures in order to accommodate our learning curve. This, I discovered, was the real reason the upgrade cost $1.6 billion. The software costs were under a hundred million dollars. The bulk of the expenses came from lost patient revenues and all the tech-support personnel and other people needed during the implementation phase.

In the first five weeks, the I.T. folks logged twenty-seven thousand help-desk tickets -- three for every two users. Most were basic how-to questions; a few involved major technical glitches. Printing problems abounded. Many patient medications and instructions hadn't transferred accurately from our old system. My hospital had to hire hundreds of moonlighting residents and pharmacists to double-check the medication list for every patient while technicians worked to fix the data-transfer problem.

Many of the angriest complaints, however, were due to problems rooted in what Sumit Rana, a senior vice-president at Epic, called "the Revenge of the Ancillaries." In building a given function -- say, an order form for a brain MRI -- the design choices were more political than technical: administrative staff and doctors had different views about what should be included. The doctors were used to having all the votes. But Epic had arranged meetings to try to adjudicate these differences. Now the staff had a say (and sometimes the doctors didn't even show), and they added questions that made their jobs easier but other jobs more time-consuming. Questions that doctors had routinely skipped now stopped them short, with "field required" alerts. A simple request might now involve filling out a detailed form that took away precious minutes of time with patients.

15 of 292 comments (clear)

  1. Sigh by nospam007 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I remember fondly, when one doctor called me to complain about my program I wrote for him
    He said it behaved erratically, especially if they lay down a heavy binder on the keyboard to check something.

    1. Re:Sigh by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 5, Funny

      The cure for “feline word processing” is not to add increasingly tricky new functions to your software that may have unguessable side effects. It’s not letting the damn cat walk on your keyboard.

    2. Re:Sigh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      LOL, to a doctor, scope creep means that they are still in control!

      I used to work in transfusion medicine. My team developed software for tracking the results on people who gave and received transfusions. In the donor hemovigilance system, we had a doctor who had worked with me on prior systems, and he was willing ot live by the requirements that we developed. We took two months writing he requirement, a week of re-reading it (took turns going around the table reading it aloud and addressing any disagreements or inconsistencies), then we shipped it off-shore and received completed software 30 days later.

      At the end of the day, we had 1 discrepancy from the original requirement, 2 new features (doctor initially tried to claim it was a discrepancy, but good documentation squashed the complaint. At this point we did a knowledge transfer to internal devs, who continued to work on version so the code, and who where now capable of developing hte next software.

      The next software was to track people who received transfusions. Since this part of the process occurred in hospitals (our customers), we did multiple site visits and met with medical directors, laboratory managers, transfusion services nurses and the FDA with compliance issues.

      We were nearly complete with the development, when we hired a new doctor and she was assigned to work with us on the software validation. Well, she was eager to help but INSISTED on changing everything about ow the software behaved, eventually. It was nightmarish, but she turned it into a political battle, and with doctors in charge, IT had no say in reigning her in. Eventually the software was rolled out, but the customers refused to use it since it no longer reflected their needs...

      TLDR? Doctors are spoiled prats who will shit can any IT project because they are more concerned with playing dominance games than getting work done. This will continue until they are ultimately commoditized like the rest of us.

  2. Reality Check by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As someone who works in healthcare IT, I understand where this article is going, and the costs associated with installation of an EMR are certainly feasible. However, this is NOT why doctors hate their computers. They don't want to do the part of their job that is arguably one of the most important. Documentation. They want someone else to do it for them. We constantly get requests for scribes to do that. It's PART OF THEIR JOB. That's like me not installing OS updates, not installing anti-virus. Stuff I'd prefer not to do but it's part of my job. Doctors don't want to do to it so they don't want the system to do it. Bad documentation from scribes leads to increased healthcare cost due to errors, and costs organizations because billing in many cases requires that the documentation be completed by the person who did the procedure.

    1. Re:Reality Check by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But should it be their job? Might it be better if the doctor focuses on the patient and a scribe focuses on the data entry? We keep hearing about a shortage of doctors and it's easier and cheaper to train a new scribe than a new doctor.

      As for the billing bureaucracy, perhaps an anal stickectomy is in order.

    2. Re:Reality Check by Sarten-X · · Score: 3, Informative

      Consider the alternative. The guy who's responsible for recording exactly what my condition is, and what my treatment plans are... does not actually have medical training?

      We have that already. It's Dragon NaturallySpeaking, and an endless source of amusement is seeing how badly it misunderstands what the doctor says, because it doesn't understand the context.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    3. Re:Reality Check by bferrell · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't work in healthcare IT, but I DO work in IT and have for nearly 40 years.

      There is now and has been an old saying in the field... The work isn't over until the paperwork is done.

      How is this different from the medical field? I know, I know... "but people die if..."

      The number of doctors IS limited (and "doctoring" person hours available)... By medical associations (practicing doctors themselves) limiting the number of medical school openings. So we get the complaint that they only have so much time to interact with patients.

      Wait... We have a "guild" whose member don't have "enough time" to do the whole job. And an artificial shortage of guild practitioners.

      Looks like a problem in queuing theory to me... With a nasty ramp up problem.

      And people still die if we don't have enough "doctoring hours" to do the job needed.

      IT/automation can only do so much.

  3. No, computers did NOT stand in the way by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It wasn't that computers are less efficient than old school / antiquated methods. It was a matter of incompetence. Before the transition all people involved should have been properly trained. They shouldn't have made a mass transition to the new system, but rather should have piloted it with a small group of the best in class as the first users, who would then be in a position to help their colleagues thereby greatly minimizing the need to involve IT. The data imports should have been tested properly. Printing issues should have been resolved in the piloting phase. Basically, everything was done wrong, but at least the Hospital Administrator's nephew got a new job out of the deal! (I don't know about that last point, but I do know non-tech people hire people they know, not people *who* know.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    1. Re:No, computers did NOT stand in the way by DarkOx · · Score: 5, Informative

      They shouldn't have made a mass transition to the new system, but rather should have piloted it with a small group of the best in class as the first users, who would then be in a position to help their colleagues thereby greatly minimizing the need to involve IT.

      That might be about the most tone deaf stupid, IT think I have seen in a long time. Look have you any idea how a hospital operates? Its not like a GPs office. Nurses change in shifts. Different specialists see patients; You might have one attending physician overseeing the entire thing but the anesthesiologist, dietitian, physical therapist, gastrointerologist all need to see the same patient and they are never scheduled in a room together. Their entire communication is via charts. Oh and even the kitchen gets sent food prep instructions - per patient via the 'system'

      You simply can't pilot something with X users, at hospital scale. Won't work. The best you can do is ask X people to do double entry for a little while to see if they hit any issues but the rest of the practice at large is going to still be using the old system.

      Your choices are either hot cut - or - full scale integration between the new system and the one you are retiring; and all the bi-direction data translation and real-time synchronization issues there in.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    2. Re:No, computers did NOT stand in the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      I have to stay anonymous, but I'm in agreement w/ about 50% of what your saying.

      Epic is a beast, it's a fully integrated system of about 30ish different modules 10+ "core" ones that glue together to form the Voltron of patient charting. Each module requires substantial training, and about 3 years experience for a seasoned IT analyst to be competent, but much of them are clinical converts with little IT knowledge but lots of medical knowledge. Training up support staff is hard when that much experience is required just to feel comfortable, plus they may not be the best computer people to start with! Good consultants can easily make $100/hr. It takes much more time to be in the top 25% who can also earn more. The thing is, you can't know enough! Knowing a little about each module and you won't be very effective. Specialize in just one and you won't be effective. You need to know a LOT about the relationships between them, and how to navigate those. Printing? Yeah we have tech dress rehearsal for that, that's gross negligence by IT. Data migration? It's not as easy as saying the words. Mapping takes a long time, is often done w/ excel because there's no "Conversion utility" between 1 brand and another. (write one that works 100% of the time, and you might get rich!) You can't test every map w/ human eyes, there's too damn many of them. Look at the CPT code book to get a good idea of why this is. Also, human nature never checks the negative test. I have to constantly remind my team that just because something works as you built it doesn't mean that something else didn't break.

      Ancillary systems have historically taken on risk that is outside their scope, and now their pushing that back to where it legally belongs, and yes doctors don't like it. Usually the older ones.

      Caveat, I'm biased, as I work in the field. Epic has it's faults, don't get me wrong, it's a complicated beast. I hated it for the first 4 years that I worked on it. Now? Now I "get it" and am blessed to have had the opportunity to have worked w/ it.

  4. Re:I don't think that doctors hate their computers by GerryGilmore · · Score: 4, Interesting

    As someone who spent 9 years working on HMIS systems, I can tell you that doctors hate what everyone hates: poorly designed screens and workflows that do not fit in with the efficient use of their time. One example: a vendor had a system for doing basic Order Entry - where, say, a doctor orders an X-ray. Along with a bunch of other unnecessary data REQUIRED to be entered, the system forced them to manually enter the date and time that the order was entered. No thought of: let's use the actual known current date and time that the order was entered. These types of inefficiencies were rampant and the vendor was truly perplexed why everyone hated the system so much.

  5. Everything Wrong... by nagora · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...with private medicine in one phrase:

    the expenses came from lost patient revenues

    When patients are revenues, who's interested in curing anything?

    --
    "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
  6. Who is the system designed for? by shess · · Score: 3, Informative

    Once I started a new job which had a few nice things like getting reimbursed for decent home Internet service (because I was on call). But the system used to request reimbursement was clearly designed for the people cutting the checks, not for the people entering the requests, so after three months I just gave up and paid for my home Internet service the old fashioned way, out of my own damn pocket.

    The fundamental problem is that whoever is designing the system gets to choose where they can freeride. If an insurance company designs the system, they're going to push work off on medical facilities and doctors. If a hospital designs the system, they're going to push work off on doctors and nurses. If doctors design the system, they're going to push work off on medical facilities and insurance providers. The key problem is that patient representation is lost in the process. If you stepped back and said "What option would provide the best patient outcome?", you'd start to consider questions like "How do we ask this question to get the best data, but to prevent people from getting irritated and pushing random buttons to make progress?" So, often a required field goes from having one of two or three answers to including options like "I don't know" or "Not applicable". And just to be safe, there should be a "I don't want to answer", so that you know whether or not the doctor actually thought about the question, rather than just pressing "Not applicable" to get the question to go away. Then, of course, you need people designing backends to reflect this ambiguity.

    Unfortunately, it's easier to just force a selection at the front end, even though it messes up your data. So you can say with 100% confidence that a particular question was answered "Yes" or "No", but you have no confidence as to whether the person answering the questions actually made any effort to have them correspond with reality.

  7. Re:EHRs are terrible by demonlapin · · Score: 5, Informative
    TL, DR: EMR's all suck, and are vastly inferior to "do it on paper and scan it in later" for the vast majority of cases.

    Let’s implement an EHR system that everyone can live [with]

    Well, that's the hard part, isn't it? They are almost universally despised. My workload has increased significantly since my hospital implemented an EMR, and the only thing that has improved vs paper is that you can read everyone's writing. Of course, those relevant nuggets of information are now buried in pages of auto-generated "content" that load slowly, so they're not necessarily easier to find out.

    I'm an anesthesiologist, and my job is not like that of other doctors. Unlike the vast majority of doctors, I don't get paid to write notes with more details. My notes are very, very brief. I can write down "healthy" and leave it at that, and still get paid. What I do have to do is find all those nuggets of information. In the previous system we had, charts were done on paper, and scanned in after discharge. Lab results and anything dictated (operative notes, radiology results, pathology results) were easily found in the computer. Now? Happy hunting. My note auto-includes all recent radiology results, even when they are irrelevant to what I'm going to do. If I want a nice, clean note that is in any way as concise as my paper notes were, I have to go and delete all of that manually.

    There's a nice little section where diagnoses are entered as the patient comes into the system. If someone has put these in, it auto-populates. Great, right? Except that if you've ever been pregnant, then "pregnant" shall forevermore be on your list. I have to hover over a very specific box to delete that when, for example, you've had your baby. Or babies - I'll get one "pregnant" diagnosis for every one of those. It helpfully includes information like whether the patient is sexually active or not - even if the patient is currently pregnant. There is no reason that should ever appear in my note, because the only thing that is relevant to me is whether or not you are currently pregnant.

    So, just to make a simple example, let's have a healthy 19-year-old woman with appendictis. No allergies, no medications, no prior surgeries, no family history of anesthetic complications, normal airway exam, brief list of labs, negative pregnancy test, plan general anesthesia, ASA physical status 1E. That is what my paper note looked like. The EMR note would fill pages.

    The thing about paper medical records, for all their faults, is that they were a highly refined method for transmitting maximum information in minimum space. Even after the entire rest of the VA had switched to electronic records (and although the backend was apparently a nightmare, the user experience wasn't too awful), anesthesia records were done on paper and then scanned in, because they occupied the front and back of one sheet of paper and were dense with information that just can't be represented in text. Even simple things like blood chemistry were typically recorded in a skeleton so that you didn't have to read line-by-line.

    Having said all that, every doctor can tell you something similar about their own specialty. Irrelevant or incorrect information clogs notes, especially as they are more or less cut-and-pasted day to day, with the newest day usually coming at the bottom. I was investigating a case where a patient who was in the ICU quit breathing and had to be intubated. It happens, no surprise there, and one of the physician notes written at the time suggested that it was correlated with starting a specific medication. I decided to look up the nurse's notes to see whether that was true or not - ICU nurses are a dedicated bunch, and there's no way that it wasn't documented. In the ancient days, that would have required a trip to medical records. In the immediately-past system, I would have been able to pull up the scanned i

  8. Re:EHRs are terrible by realxmp · · Score: 3, Informative

    It's not holding them accountable for their clinical decisions (which is the kind of accountable people think of in this case), it's all about accounting for billing purposes. Some of this data is useful for research purposes and yes some of it can be used to figure out what went wrong in a course of treatment. Unfortunately it also reduces doctor throughput and draws their attention away from the patient in front of them.

    We need to look for solutions that reduce the time and attention required by this software as much as possible. Some of this is simply capturing data directly from medical notes, voice recognition and smarter software (ensuring you don't have to enter the same thing into two different bits of software). The rest is being brutal and removing unnecessary/unused information.