Mac Mini Teardown Reveals User-Upgradable RAM, But Soldered Down CPU and Storage (macrumors.com)

iFixit has released their teardown of the new Mac mini, providing a look inside the portable desktop computer. Some of the notable findings include user-upgradable RAM and soldered CPU and SSD. Mac Rumors reports: While the RAM in the previous-gen Mac mini from 2014 was soldered to the logic board, the new Mac mini has user-upgradeable RAM, as discovered earlier this week. As seen in older iMacs, the RAM is protected by a perforated shield that allows the memory modules to operate at a high frequency of 2666 MHz without interfering with other device functions, according to iFixit. To upgrade the RAM, the shield can be removed by unfastening four Torx screws.

Other silicon on the logic board of this particular Mac mini includes the Apple T2 security chip, a 3.6GHz quad-core Intel Core i3 processor, Intel UHD Graphics 630, 128GB of flash storage from Toshiba, an Intel JHL7540 Thunderbolt 3 controller, and a Gigabit Ethernet controller from Broadcom. Despite the good news about the RAM, the CPU and SSD are soldered to the logic board, as are many ports, so this isn't a truly modular Mac mini. iFixit awarded the new Mac mini a repairability score of 6/10, with 10 being the easiest to repair, topping the latest MacBook Air, MacBook, MacBook Pro, iMac, and iMac Pro, and trailing only the 2013 Mac Pro.

Comments

Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

There might be a point to be made regarding the SSD; but aren't we getting a bit ridiculous, expecting a socketed CPU in a computer the size of a ham sandwich?

Re:Soldered CPU?

[sittingnut]

aren't we getting a bit ridiculous, expecting a socketed CPU in a computer the size of a ham sandwich?

no.
there are other computers, "the size of a ham sandwich", costing much less with much better specifications btw, which can be upgraded.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

aren't we getting a bit ridiculous, expecting a socketed CPU in a computer the size of a ham sandwich?

no.
there are other computers, "the size of a ham sandwich", costing much less with much better specifications btw, which can be upgraded.

{{Citation needed}}

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Selur]

both cpu and ssd soldering have only one goal: to make money
simply look at what premium prices apple charges for ssds and ram,...

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

There might be a point to be made regarding the SSD; but aren't we getting a bit ridiculous, expecting a socketed CPU in a computer the size of a ham sandwich?

I'd like to see something about the size of a ham sandwidth that just slots in on the back of 4k tvs. The power supply could possibly be common to save space and power. A thin heat sink along the back of the tv could likely help dissipate heat from the CPU, and CPU graphics is now good enough for 4k for common tasks. You probably want 4 cores and 16GB for most things. Externally it would need network and usb. The option to turn the computer on/off could come from a standard tv menu, which would be fairly spartan, since you don't need any "smart" features with a computer being slotted in. External speakers, if needed would just connect to the tv as usual.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-STX

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps... But soldered down storage?
Next version will have soldered down RAM and No option for upgrades

And why?

Because disallow upgrades and you sell more

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

We're not in the '90s anymore, big breakthroughs in performance are not going to happen. There is no point in upgrading. We need reliable tools and that's what we, the majority of consumers, want. You nerds can wank off to raspies and other crap kit.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[DNS-and-BIND]

Depends on if you think the Right to Repair is important.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Tough Love]

It doesn't really matter, this thing is way too expensive for anybody to want it. What is Apple thinking, I love it.

You want a small computer, get a NUC. You want a decent computer don't get a mini.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Tough Love]

If you actually want to do something with it, Mini-ITX makes a lot more sense, lots of AM4/Ryzen motherboards available for cheap. Stick in a 2600 for a highly respectable compact PC.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see a world where I would ever buy a Mac (Well, maybe a dated one with a 68k, but you know, I am not interested in the newer ones at all.)

However, I would be completely fine with a soldered in CPU.
By the time I think it is time to get a new CPU Intel has usually changed socket so I need to do a motherboard upgrade anyway.
So in practice it wouldn't really make a big difference if the CPU was soldered down.

When it is time to change out the CPU there is a newer RAM type.
It would probably work just fine to have a usable chunk of memory soldered in and only have one socket pair for expanding it.
Heck, even if you have all four memory sockets it wouldn't hurt to have a gig or two soldered in to make the computer bootable without them.

Sure, I get that not everyone are as disinterested in modern computers as I am, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was a large chunk of user that didn't care enough to do partial upgrades.
Since Apple have marketed themselves with "It just works" their customer base is probably over-represented by people who doesn't want to open the computer.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[geekmux]

There might be a point to be made regarding the SSD; but aren't we getting a bit ridiculous, expecting a socketed CPU in a computer the size of a ham sandwich?

"Ridiculous" left conversations about Apple hardware long ago. Apple went right past Ludicrous (too "Tesla-y") and went straight to Asinine mode in the last few years, and dismissive attitudes are why we now have soldered CPUs. Soon, people will be dismissing soldered hard drives and memory as "expected", and this mentality will infect every other company selling hardware.

A top-of-the-line Mac Mini (that still had user-replaceable storage and memory) was barely over $1000 in 2012. A top-of-the-line Mac Mini is now over $4000, and Apple labels this as their "entry-level" model. Speaking of memory upgrades, that'll cost you $1400 for 64GB of Apple memory. You've got to be fucking kidding me. If the CPI was tied to this company's profit margins, millionaire would describe poverty.

Not sure what I despise more; Apple's greed, or the consumers who demand it.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[geekmux]

We're not in the '90s anymore, big breakthroughs in performance are not going to happen. There is no point in upgrading. We need reliable tools and that's what we, the majority of consumers, want. You nerds can wank off to raspies and other crap kit.

If you truly feel there's "no point" in supporting user-replaceable options, then tell me the fucking point of paying Apple $1400 for 64GB of Apple memory. Or $1400 for a 2TB SSD.

You're right. We're not in the 90's anymore. In the 90's, I didn't have to get a "gig" job just to afford this shit.

And consumers don't give a shit about reliability. If they did, they would demand their most expensive electronic investment (smartphones) have user-replaceable batteries to make them last more than a fucking year or two.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[mikael]

Cotton Candy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

I know you can use a 4K screen as a monitor to a smartphone using a special HDMI cable.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[gtall]

Wow! And you say Apple is trying to make money? Those bastards!!

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially Ryzen ITX boards are not cheap https://pcpartpicker.com/products/motherboard/#s=33&f=8 prices are high and selection very small
https://pcpartpicker.com/products/motherboard/#s=30&f=8&sort=price&page=1 Intel based solutions cost ~30$ less and lots more choice.
Worse, the even smaller thin Mini-ITX which lets you build fanless systems with Akasa Euler or similar, you cannot even get for AMD.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't for the average consumer. It's pretty clear apple is aiming all it's devices at either the upscale market or corporate users who don't care about cost. An 128 GB SSD* makes no sense to an average consumer, but would to a corporate user who uses it for low-profile computing or light iOS development.

That's really where stuff like the Surface Pro is aimed at: corporate buyers that prefer sleek looks over cost effectiveness. The mass market is better off buying an i3 for $400 or less.

*I hear Apple's SSDs are top notch, but, again, general consumers don't necessarily need that high quality.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Tough Love]

Or maybe 2400G to fit in a tiny case. Some decent onboard vega punch and just say no to Apple's external GPU, what a bad idea.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Uberbah]

Still learning how to search for things in internet?

Still learning that it's the job of the person making the assertion to back up said assertion?

"That which is asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence" - Christopher Hitchens

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Uberbah]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-STX

Which is a motherboard, not a computer from an OEM. Any DIY computer will be cheaper than an OEM (i.e. not just Apple). So, got a real example?

Re:Soldered CPU?

[blindseer]

Lenvo sells their Tiny-In-One line that does much of what you describe, including sharing the power supply. I've also seen 3rd party "hacks" that will mount a Mac Mini behind a screen. Maybe calling it a "hack" is unkind, they look very nice and not like something hacked together. There's stuff out there that do this.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

You need a gig job to afford a Mac? Lol, maybe you should reconsider your whole life.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[blindseer]

And consumers don't give a shit about reliability. If they did, they would demand their most expensive electronic investment (smartphones) have user-replaceable batteries to make them last more than a fucking year or two.

I doubt people are buying new phones every year or two because the battery is losing capacity. I'm guessing it's because they simply wanted a phone with more features. You are probably right about people not being concerned about the phone being reliable as they buy a phone knowing in advance they'll just trade it in for a new one next year.

I suspect that phone makers stopped offering user replaceable batteries because few people demanded them. There was a time when phones with replaceable batteries were on the market at the same time as phones without replaceable batteries. I'm guessing the phones without user replaceable batteries simply sold better. It probably didn't help that phones rarely used any common battery type anyway. By the time a battery needed replacement the cost of a new battery wasn't worth keeping the phone when a new phone comes with a new battery.

If you don't like paying Apple prices then don't buy them.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[damnbunni]

Do you have a source for 32GB DDR-4 SO-DIMMs for less than $700 each?

Because I can't find any for sale at all, much less find them for less than Apple is charging.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[gnasher719]

A top-of-the-line Mac Mini is now over $4000, and Apple labels this as their "entry-level" model.

You are being ridiculous. The "top-of-the-line" Mac Mini is so expensive because it can be upgraded to 64 GB Ram / 2TB SSD. Would it make you happier if it could be upgraded to 32GB / 1TB only for much less money?

BTW. You can upgrade the RAM yourself, and there are four thunderbolt parts where you can attach the fastest and biggest SSD drives you can find.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[gnasher719]

Do you have a source for 32GB DDR-4 SO-DIMMs for less than $700 each?

Crucial sells 128GB (looks like one chip) DDR-4 chips for $3,299. No 64GB or 32GB chips on sale. Didn't check what form factor (SO-DIMM or else) they were.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[blindseer]

Soon, people will be dismissing soldered hard drives and memory as "expected", and this mentality will infect every other company selling hardware.

I remember when it was "expected" for a computer to have a built in modem. Before (and after) that people were "expected" to buy one as an external additional cost accessory if they wanted one. I remember when people "expected" an optical drive in their computers, are you still mad at Apple for not including that as standard equipment on their computers? I'm not sure if kids these days even know that a CD or DVD were used in computers, I mean other than to play music and movies on them.

A top-of-the-line Mac Mini (that still had user-replaceable storage and memory) was barely over $1000 in 2012. A top-of-the-line Mac Mini is now over $4000, and Apple labels this as their "entry-level" model.

That was 4 cores and seven years ago. Also with that money comes a computer with ThunderBolt 3, 10Gb Ethernet, SSD, and far more RAM. Apparently some people believe it's worth the price.

If you don't like it then don't buy one.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Nidi62]

I think you can get one at McDonald's

Re:Soldered CPU?

[serviscope_minor]

The "top-of-the-line" Mac Mini is so expensive because it can be upgraded to 64 GB Ram / 2TB SSD.

No it's expensive because they can overcharge for the 64GB of RAM and a 2TB SSD.

It took a couple of minutes on google to find a pair of 32GB sodimms of the right frequenct for about $650. A really good 2TB ssd is similar.

and there are four thunderbolt parts where you can attach the fastest and biggest SSD drives you can find.

It's not so much mini at that point as mini-but-with-a-bunch-of-shite-plugged-in.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't buy one of these because of cost and I don't particularly fancy Apple's operating system. If I wanted something in a similar form factor (though not quite as tiny), I'd buy an Intel NUC and call it a day. That at least gets you the ability to upgrade RAM and storage. A NUC with the same features as the Mac Mini can be purchased nekkid for a few hundred US$. Add however much RAM you want, an M.2 or SATA SSD, and an operating system and you're good to go.

If you're an Apple fanboy and don't want to burn a lot of desktop space and aren't particularly thrifty, I don't see anything wrong with the mini. If you're in their ecosystem, you're already "bought in" to limited upgradability and high cost. Those folks aren't likely to complain about the lack of choices.

Best,

Re:Soldered CPU?

[seven of five]

The CPU in an Arduino Uno is socketed.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

So much misunderstanding in one post...

Re:Soldered CPU?

[UnknowingFool]

Yes but mini-ITX is larger than the ham sandwich size that the OP mentioned.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

there are other computers, "the size of a ham sandwich", costing much less with much better specifications btw, which can be upgraded.

The issue for me is more how commonly people upgrade components. Years ago I used to bother with that sort of thing. Sockets tended to have long lifetimes, and after 3 years you could buy a CPU that was 2 times faster for the same price.

These days sockets seem to come and go every 1-2 years, and there's not a very long upgrade path. You could buy a new CPU, but it's not going to be hugely faster.

Memory and storage are far different, and you can extend the lifetime of a PC significantly by doubling the memory or storage.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[dj245]

Or maybe 2400G to fit in a tiny case. Some decent onboard vega punch and just say no to Apple's external GPU, what a bad idea.

External GPUs are a fantastic idea. Reduce the number of configurations of the computer (reducing costs), and allows you sell another accessory at good margin (increasing revenue). You're just looking from the wrong perspective.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Jeremi]

And consumers don't give a shit about reliability. If they did, they would demand their most expensive electronic investment (smartphones) have user-replaceable batteries to make them last more than a fucking year or two.

Users do care about reliability -- they just define "reliability" differently than you do.

What users want (and generally, these days, get) is a phone that reliably wakes up whenever they want it to, does the things they want to do quickly and without fuss, and doesn't run out of battery before they put it on its charger and go back to sleep.

If the phone's battery starts to wear after 3-5 years and has diminished capacity, that's fine -- they don't see that as "unreliability", because they knew in advance that would happen and therefore were able to plan for it. So when limited battery life starts to bug them, they simply either get the battery replaced, or upgrade to a newer model.

If you think users are using their phones wrong, or defining the word "reliability" wrong, you're free to say so; but by the same token they are free to ignore you, because their solutions are working fine for them.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Soldered CPU's really aren't that abnormal for such an "embedded" style device. I intentionally bought a SoC system with a soldered CPU for a NAS device and it would have worked out fine if the board BIOS wasn't so strange. In the past Intel has sold SoC chip/board combos for less than just the chip, so there might be a real incentive there.

No excuse for soldering the SSD or RAM though, both of those are subject to failure and this concept that we don't need recovery options if the board or power supply fails is downright silly. Upwards of 90% of the world can't use cloud storage and most users are too shortsighted to maintain their own backups, removing that one last recovery option is malicious.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[NormalVisual]

You want a small computer, get a NUC.

Seriously. They're using real CPUs, upgradable, and you can get the VESA brackets to stick 'em on the back of your display if space is at a premium. They're also available in a wide range of performance/price specs to meet most needs.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[NormalVisual]

I'm not sure if kids these days even know that a CD or DVD were used in computers

Or that the writable CD drive that costs $25 to include in a new build was once a hulking, $10,000 external peripheral that we could only lust after.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Only from a shitty company like apple. Other companies manage to do it. But then again apple is a software company; their hardware has always been sub-par

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a typical lazy apple cultist cop-out. But then apple zealots dont seem big on educating themselves especially since the original poster is an apple shill that often makes bullshit statement about apple with providing any proof therefore...
"Fuck him" - Me.

BTW
a mac mini is 7.7 x 7.7 x 1.4 inches and standard piece of bread is 4 x 5 x .75 making a ham sandwich 4 x 5 x 1.75 so again the apple shill poster is lying with a false premise.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Megol]

Look at the connector density between a socketed chip (lands for Intel) and a BGA chip ((solder)balls) and be enlightened. Apple have some obsession to make things smaller, going with a soldered BGA reduces build height and area. It also reduces build costs and can reduce some forms of malfunctions.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Type44Q]

Here's your citation, shitlips.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[urbanriot]

An Intel NUC is smaller, faster, and the SSD is replaceable or upgradeable. I have one with a 1tb SATA SSD and a 256GB M.2 SSD.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

Still learning how to search for things in internet?

Still learning that it's the job of the person making the assertion to back up said assertion?

"That which is asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence" - Christopher Hitchens

Ooh! Nice Quote!

That's a KEEPER, thanks!!!

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

Sounds like a typical lazy apple cultist cop-out. But then apple zealots dont seem big on educating themselves especially since the original poster is an apple shill that often makes bullshit statement about apple with providing any proof therefore...
"Fuck him" - Me.

BTW
a mac mini is 7.7 x 7.7 x 1.4 inches and standard piece of bread is 4 x 5 x .75 making a ham sandwich 4 x 5 x 1.75 so again the apple shill poster is lying with a false premise.

OMFG!

I hope you're not serious!

And who said a "regulation ham sandwich"?

Re:Soldered CPU?

[ElitistWhiner]

both cpu and ssd soldering have only one goal: to make money

Not so fast. ALL my failures have been portability, misuse and abuse related. Reliability is tantamount and no computer manufacturer exceeds Apple's reliability. That's right on target with soldered down. I concede that soldered CPU is throwaway motherboard should it should fail. BUT since 1975 I've never experienced a CPU failure over the span of mainframe, mini, desktop, laptop nor iDevice.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

aren't we getting a bit ridiculous, expecting a socketed CPU in a computer the size of a ham sandwich?

no.
there are other computers, "the size of a ham sandwich", costing much less with much better specifications btw, which can be upgraded.

Seriously, mods?!?

The parent is modded +5 Insightful WITH ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF?'!?

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

Or maybe 2400G to fit in a tiny case. Some decent onboard vega punch and just say no to Apple's external GPU, what a bad idea.

Wow!

The entire rest of the industry and reviewers don't think so.

So where, pray tell, in a case like that, is a Vega going to find sufficient cooling?

I think the wisdom of Apple's decision is going to come clear, when this mini is going to be able to rock 24/7 without throttling at full load.

There's a reason they put a fan that takes up nearly the entire empty space in the case with 2 X the airflow of the previous model's. Think about it.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

An Intel NUC is smaller, faster, and the SSD is replaceable or upgradeable. I have one with a 1tb SATA SSD and a 256GB M.2 SSD.

And has shit for I/O.

Oh, and they are NOT smaller.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

A NUC with the same features as the Mac Mini can be purchased nekkid for a few hundred US$. Add however much RAM you want, an M.2 or SATA SSD, and an operating system and you're good to go.

And you're also at the price of a Mac mini; but sans about 90% of the I/O, a warranty and support.

Next brilliant idea?

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

But it runs a better OS and this is much more important

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

aren't we getting a bit ridiculous, expecting a socketed CPU in a computer the size of a ham sandwich?

no.
there are other computers, "the size of a ham sandwich", costing much less with much better specifications btw, which can be upgraded.

Isn’t that why this is ridiculous? Buy one of those instead if it matters. I’m sure tons, TONS of people are in the market for ham sandwich sized UPGRADEABLE computers. It’s like complaining an iPhone doesn’t have a stylus.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Cmdln Daco]

I suppose the "ham sandwich" could be the size of the pizza box enclosure a Sun Sparcstation 20 came in. It's the same or a similar form factor.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Cmdln Daco]

Wow, the literal use of fishing jargon by an infamous troll.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

there are other computers, "the size of a ham sandwich", costing much less with much better specifications btw, which can be upgraded.

The issue for me is more how commonly people upgrade components. Years ago I used to bother with that sort of thing. Sockets tended to have long lifetimes, and after 3 years you could buy a CPU that was 2 times faster for the same price.

These days sockets seem to come and go every 1-2 years, and there's not a very long upgrade path. You could buy a new CPU, but it's not going to be hugely faster.

Memory and storage are far different, and you can extend the lifetime of a PC significantly by doubling the memory or storage.

And with FOUR TB 3 ports (or, thought of another way, EIGHT PCIe X 4 "Slots") available, JUST USE AN EXTERNAL DRIVE, FFS!!!

Remember, it's a DESKTOP computer, with all that entails (separate DKM). "Portability" of your "workstation setup" isn't a big consideration.

Oh, and considering the fact that, even though the 7th and 8th generation Intel CPUs share a socket, THEY DON'T SHARE A CHIPSET, OR EVEN A COMMON PINOUT!!! So what kind of "CPU upgrade path" is INTEL providing, even for the NUCs that the Haters keep trying to pit against the Mac mini?

Seems like, with Intel, that even HAVING a socketed CPU isn't much of a "future proofing" plan.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Some people just have better arguments than you. Deal with being inferior. Being an apple worshipper I am sure you are used to it.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

Soldered CPU's really aren't that abnormal for such an "embedded" style device. I intentionally bought a SoC system with a soldered CPU for a NAS device and it would have worked out fine if the board BIOS wasn't so strange. In the past Intel has sold SoC chip/board combos for less than just the chip, so there might be a real incentive there.

No excuse for soldering the SSD or RAM though, both of those are subject to failure and this concept that we don't need recovery options if the board or power supply fails is downright silly. Upwards of 90% of the world can't use cloud storage and most users are too shortsighted to maintain their own backups, removing that one last recovery option is malicious.

The RAM is SOCKETED, moron.

Do try to keep up!

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

apples reliability???.

https://www.macrumors.com/2018/11/09/iphone-x-display-replacement-program/
https://www.macrumors.com/2018/11/09/apple-macbook-pro-ssd-service-program/

Keep chugging and regurgitating that Koolaid

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

Depends on if you think the Right to Repair is important.

What does a soldered CPU have to do with THAT?

Since 1976 (my entrance into Personal Computers), I have NEVER even SEEN a CPU failure.

Never.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

It doesn't really matter, this thing is way too expensive for anybody to want it. What is Apple thinking, I love it.

You want a small computer, get a NUC. You want a decent computer don't get a mini.

But if you want to do something like this, nothing else will do.

https://goo.gl/images/v3JUdA

Note that that is likely a greater computer (REAL computer, not some virtualization bullshit) density than even blade severs can attain.

And a damn sight less power hungry, LOUD, and likely less maintenance headache. Minis are REALLY reliable..

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

This isn't for the average consumer. It's pretty clear apple is aiming all it's devices at either the upscale market or corporate users who don't care about cost. An 128 GB SSD* makes no sense to an average consumer, but would to a corporate user who uses it for low-profile computing or light iOS development.

That's really where stuff like the Surface Pro is aimed at: corporate buyers that prefer sleek looks over cost effectiveness. The mass market is better off buying an i3 for $400 or less.

*I hear Apple's SSDs are top notch, but, again, general consumers don't necessarily need that high quality.

You're kidding, right?

Where's the I/O on a Surface Pro?

Where's the RAM. Upgradability?

Yeah, real good value, that!

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

You want a small computer, get a NUC.

Seriously. They're using real CPUs, upgradable, and you can get the VESA brackets to stick 'em on the back of your display if space is at a premium. They're also available in a wide range of performance/price specs to meet most needs.

And almost no I/O.

Real useful in a practical application - NOT!

Re:Soldered CPU?

[NormalVisual]

They're available with the same USB3 and Thunderbolt ports as the Macs are. Sure, if you have a need for 4 Thunderbolt ports you might be out of luck, but I'm betting there are going to be very few people for whom that's worth the price premium. Additionally, lower-cost variants are available for those that don't need TB at all.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[sunking2]

Just because you lack the skill to desolder a cpu doesn't make it unrepairable. We have techs at work that do it all the time.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

OS/2? agreed.

I suppose you could run ReactOS on it, if you insist.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Solandri]

The Mac Mini is made using laptop parts. AFAIK, there are no socketed mobile CPUs anymore - they're all soldered. This is done to keep power consumption (and thus cooling requirement) to a minimum, allowing a smaller total package.

The lack of a M.2 socket for a SSD is a big negative. But Apple has been going with non-Samsung NAND lately with pathetic 4k read/write speeds. 10-20 MB/s vs 30-70 MB/s for the Samsung SSDs (even the EVOs). So preventing owners from upgrading the storage is probably their strategy to keep users from realizing how they're being ripped off. With SSDs, it's the slowest benchmark speed which makes the biggest difference in performance, since that corresponds with the operations which keep you waiting longest..

Re:Soldered CPU?

[rfengr]

F-250? That’s a faggy, European unit. 1/72 a RAM 3500 with a coal roll’n Cummins.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

I suppose the "ham sandwich" could be the size of the pizza box enclosure a Sun Sparcstation 20 came in. It's the same or a similar form factor.

Nice try. But, no.

One could easily find a sandwich bun 7" in diameter (I live in the Midwest US, where pork tenderloin patties are typically the size of a dinner plate!); but it really wouldn't be possible to find a readily-available loaf of bread the size of a pizza box.

Don't make yourself look like an idiot in a futile attempt to be "right", even at all costs to your reputation...

Re: Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

Wow, the literal use of fishing jargon by an infamous troll.

Off topic much?

Re:Soldered CPU?

[urbanriot]

Wrong on all counts. The Mac Mini 2018 hasn't changed the chassis size since 2014 and measures in at 19.7cm wide while the Intel NUC is only 11cm wide. Common Intel NUC's, including mine, come stock with an Intel 760p NVMe SSD. Show me a single benchmark speed test that tests both drives with the same testing software with the same parameters. Hint: You won't find any because they haven't been done yet, all we know is it has a Toshiba SSD but what brand? If it's the XG5 the I/O will be similar to the Intel, slightly slower write and slightly slower read.

I get it, I see the name, you're an Apple fanboy.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Make the damned thing slightly larger and make the major components socketed, is this really that hard to figure out. Tim Cook SUCKS MAJOR ASS, Apple has been on a downward spiral ever since Steve Jobs new ideas were used up after his passage. The "let's make is a small as possible while taking away functionality" is a losing proposition!!!

Re:Soldered CPU?

[thegarbz]

I remember when people "expected" an optical drive in their computers, are you still mad at Apple for not including that as standard equipment on their computers?

It's amazing you remember what people expected but completely ignore why they expected it. That oversight makes your entire comment incredibly dumb.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

They're available with the same USB3 and Thunderbolt ports as the Macs are. Sure, if you have a need for 4 Thunderbolt ports you might be out of luck, but I'm betting there are going to be very few people for whom that's worth the price premium. Additionally, lower-cost variants are available for those that don't need TB at all.

Nice try. Simply dismiss that which you cannot defend against.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Reduce the number of configurations of the computer (reducing costs)

From the benchmarks I've seen, external GPUs have a 10-20% reduction in performance compared to their internal counterparts due to latency with Thunderbolt and whatever else. On top of that, the housing combined with GPU make them so expensive that building a dedicated gaming computer or buying a gaming laptop would make more sense.

They sort of make sense for laptops which are fixed configurations for the most part. They make no sense for desktops, however. Attaching an eGPU to a Mac Mini isn't cost effective. It'd be simpler to build or buy a desktop tower and insert a GPU.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

Wrong on all counts. The Mac Mini 2018 hasn't changed the chassis size since 2014 and measures in at 19.7cm wide while the Intel NUC is only 11cm wide. Common Intel NUC's, including mine, come stock with an Intel 760p NVMe SSD. Show me a single benchmark speed test that tests both drives with the same testing software with the same parameters. Hint: You won't find any because they haven't been done yet, all we know is it has a Toshiba SSD but what brand? If it's the XG5 the I/O will be similar to the Intel, slightly slower write and slightly slower read.

I get it, I see the name, you're an Apple fanboy.

Depends on the NUC, now doesn't it?

For example, the Hades Canyon NUC is nearly TWICE the size of a Mac mini, and yet STILL doesn't have the I/O of the mini.

Now what?

Re:Soldered CPU?

[vlueboy]

If you don't like it then don't buy one.

Until you no longer can because there is no choice at any vendor.
As your post demonstrates, today's tech industry is full of fans who don't realize they are proverbial boiling frogs. Long gone are the days of choice. We lose hardware and convenient models are retired while the prices just stall for years or rise (texas graphing calculators, anyone?).

Small form factor products (minis, tablets, phones) are a window into the PC market's future. We will be running tpm locked down OSs and mobile apps on our desktops because those are current Apple and Windows and Google goals. And we will be made to like it.

Apple just looks slightly more ridiculous doing it because they are in full dark dominatrix regalia. Her whip creates a new industry fetish from scratch every 18 months. Then we the masochists just crouch down llicking her boots and call it trendy, and she starts planning something even kinkier just to hold our attention while other attention-starved harsh mistresses copy her moves and notches. And drain our willing wallets. Did I mention there is no choice?

The walled gartden was set up shop and walled our towns in without consent, but we all just stayed willingly. We can never live this lotus eater trap. Noticing the Stockholm syndrome is hard for the victim

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not OP, but they are in fact bastards, why anyone voluntarily does business with them is beyond me.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[tsqr]

Reliability is tantamount and no computer manufacturer exceeds Apple's reliability.

Tantamount to what?

In writing, clarity is important. One might even say it's paramount.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

You keep moving the goal posts as usual.

You are wrong, just admit it you fucking Apple cock sucker.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Citation needed.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

LOLOLOL. Got emmmmm

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

What? 32GB DDR-4 SO-DIMMs Should cost around 200-300$. Wtf are you smoking.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you seen a CPU upgrade? Because I've seen them hundreds of times.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

You do that all the fucking time you hypocrite.

You keep discussing I/o and the OP replied with the NUCs have the damn near the same hardware. You didn't even try to refute it.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

LOLOLOLOL. You are legit the dumbest person you this fucking thread.

Who is doing that with minis? One person does it and that makes the mini the most reliable computer? You are a fucking idiot.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

What?

Re:Soldered CPU?

[tsqr]

The mini appears to have a USB 3, an HDMI, four Thunderbolt 3, and an Ethernet port. The first NUC I looked at on Newegg has four USB 3.1, two USB 2.0, an HDMI, one Thunderbolt 3, and Ethernet. It also has a microSDXC port, and sockets for CPU as well as SATA and M.2 internal drives in a 4.4 x 4.6 x 2.5 in. case. I know which I would find more useful.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[NormalVisual]

I didn't dismiss anything. Your statement "And almost no I/O". was provably false. I showed that it was false, and I guess you can't handle that. Go argue somewhere else, kid.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[barc0001]

There's a difference between a company making an honest amount of money, and a company gouging their customer base. Looking at Apple Canada's site today (because I'm in Canada) I see that going from 128GB of storage to 256GB on the new Mini Apple is charging $240 CDN. Like fuck right off - dozens of brand new 256GB m2 SSDs on newegg.ca are selling for between $100-$120. For the whole 256GB, not an "upgrade". Apple is making at least a $180 of pure profit off that $240. That's horseshit.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anything is better than the abomination that is macos.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

The mini appears to have a USB 3, an HDMI, four Thunderbolt 3, and an Ethernet port. The first NUC I looked at on Newegg has four USB 3.1, two USB 2.0, an HDMI, one Thunderbolt 3, and Ethernet. It also has a microSDXC port, and sockets for CPU as well as SATA and M.2 internal drives in a 4.4 x 4.6 x 2.5 in. case. I know which I would find more useful.

So buy it and STFU.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Tough Love]

External GPUs are a fantastic idea.

Please explain to me the logic of getting a mini then sticking a bunch of peripherals onto it to make up for its defects, making it not mini after all, instead a mass of cables taking up deskspace all for a stupid amount of budget.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Tough Love]

So where, pray tell, in a case like that, is a Vega going to find sufficient cooling?

Dumbass, the 2400G has Vega on board.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

I didn't dismiss anything. Your statement "And almost no I/O". was provably false. I showed that it was false, and I guess you can't handle that. Go argue somewhere else, kid.

All the NUCs I saw on Intel's site showed relatively shitty I/O (IIRC, 2 USB-A, one TB3, a singl HDMI out and an SD slot).

The Hades Canyon NUC has more I/O; but it is more than twice the size of the mini, and is admittedly targeted at gamers fairly exclusively. Plus its 4 core 7th gen i7 CPU is weaker than the 6 core 8th gen i7 available in the mini.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

So where, pray tell, in a case like that, is a Vega going to find sufficient cooling?

Dumbass, the 2400G has Vega on board.

Dumberass, the AMD 2400G is a CPU/GPU Hybrid.

That is a COMPONENT in a computer, NOT A COMPUTER!!!

Big difference!

Plus, it has a TDP OF 100W, 35W over the CPU/GPU Hybrids in the Mac mini. Yeah. That would be nothing BUT a Throttle-fest in a COMPUTER the size of the mini.

As Bugs Bunny said, "What a Maroon!"

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

My entrance into enterprise computing was 1980, and I've seen a few CPU fails. Something tells me you've never worked with anything larger than a handful of CPUs. The last system I worked on had 56,000 cores.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Hades Canyon NUC has more I/O; but it is more than twice the size of the mini, and is admittedly targeted at gamers fairly exclusively. Plus its 4 core 7th gen i7 CPU is weaker than the 6 core 8th gen i7 available in the mini.

Yet the Hades offers better value.

What say you, cunt?

Oh yes, and I'm the buyer for a major state agency who previously used Macs. All of our iMacs and Minis are getting replaced by Wintel, and with the joke of the trash can Mac Pro we've gone to HP workstations.

Seriously boy, some of us want to do real work.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Tough Love]

That is a COMPONENT in a computer, NOT A COMPUTER!!!

WTF? You're seriously claiming the 2400G isn't a computer? Four Zen cores, sorry I had to explain it in one syllable words. Hey maybe you better just keep your mouth shut when it comes to anything technical. Or just keep your mouth shut period.

it has a TDP OF 100W

Wipe the drool off your chin. It's configurable 45 - 65 watts.

And that's my point. Mac Mini is a piece of shit, it's thermally challenged for anything serious and stupidly overpriced for low power roles a NUC does perfectly well. Why did Apple even bother, oh right, because it's populated by drivelling idiots like you. Dried Apple.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

That is a COMPONENT in a computer, NOT A COMPUTER!!!

WTF? You're seriously claiming the 2400G isn't a computer? Four Zen cores, sorry I had to explain it in one syllable words. Hey maybe you better just keep your mouth shut when it comes to anything technical. Or just keep your mouth shut period.

it has a TDP OF 100W

Wipe the drool off your chin. It's configurable 45 - 65 watts.

And that's my point. Mac Mini is a piece of shit, it's thermally challenged for anything serious and stupidly overpriced for low power roles a NUC does perfectly well. Why did Apple even bother, oh right, because it's populated by drivelling idiots like you. Dried Apple.

Please show me a picture of the COMPUTER you are calling a "2400G".

Please show me a 2400G on that Wikipedia Page you linked.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

Sorry to reply to my own post. You are correct.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[xtal]

Some of us are happy to pay a premium for hardware and software that doesnâ(TM)t look like dogshit.

Indeed - there are cheaper ways to go. Iâ(TM)m happy to pay for good hardware - and it turns out, you can make a lot of money writing software for people who are willing to pay for things.

Thereâ(TM)s another end of the calculation youâ(TM)re too short sighted to see, and thatâ(TM)s cost recovery - I flip Apple stuff every 18 months or so and recover most of my funds. That cheaper stuff is effectively worthless in the same period, and has a higher total cost of ownership as a result.

Why not use the best tool for the job? I have a component build game machine - itâ(TM)s great for that, but I much prefer the Apple ecosystem for everything else.

Hell - Iâ(TM)d probably pay more than theyâ(TM)re asking - and often do, to get Applecare. Enjoy your Chinese smartphone and DIY hardware. To each their own.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[tsqr]

So buy it and STFU.

Nice try. Simply dismiss that which you cannot defend against. Now where have I heard this before?

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because not everyone in the world is an irrational Apple hater.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[barc0001]

> Indeed - there are cheaper ways to go. Iâ(TM)m happy to pay for good hardware

So happy you're not posting in the standard ANSI character set? There is paying for good hardware and then there is OVERpaying. And that's what you're doing. If Intel can fit m2 slots into a NUC that is 1/4 the size of a Mac Mini, Apple could do it too. They just chose not to because they know their fanbase will happily pay them too much money. Courageous even, according to Tim Cook.

> . Enjoy your Chinese smartphone and DIY hardware. To each their own.

Korean actually. S7, all I need is phone calls, texts and light web browsing, no need to be stupid and pay too much for a premium phone. And my scratchbuilt Ryzen system does kick a lot of ass and all in - including a Ti1060 - cost less than that low end Mac Mini. As a hardware buyer for my employer, I also got a great chuckle out of Apple's suggestions on their new Mac Mini page that the Mac Mini might be in any way, shape or form a suitable server farm device to be bought by the rackload. At those prices there are FAR better options.

> Hell - Iâ(TM)d probably pay more than theyâ(TM)re asking - and often do, to get Applecare

Or you could do like I do and just buy decent hardware that you *don't* expect to have to use a pricy warranty on. As you say though, to each their own.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

TFTC is going to keep spamming his response, so you may as well point out that the MacMini does not have the internal IO to drive 4 thunderbolt ports. They may as well take 127 USB hubs and daisy chain them in and claim hundreds of ports.

If you need more ports (and are not talking about a laptop which is expected to be easily portable), just get a hub. TB hubs exist.

Mac has always been overpriced. Fans have always attempted to define the argument in terms of the unique set of bizarre options only the Macs have. One slashdot mac fanboi discussion was claiming that BluTooth4(?) was easily worth $150 to be integrated vs BT3 or using a usb mini plug. Poor solder job on components (cough nvidia graphics) was blamed as a supplier problem. Apple pics the suppliers - you have no choice before or after the fact.

And you cant even load linux on them anymore! Hell, I can run Linux on my Surface!...
(I don't bc I like my pen to have drivers working nicely, but I can).

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Then get an Arduino and play with toys while grownups use their tools to work.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Work? I didn't know posting to social media from a coffee shop was now work. The future is amazing.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're moving goalposts.

Besides, this is Slashdot. If you don't build your own computers, you shouldn't be here. Perhaps Facebook or Twitter is more your speed, son.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

OS X actually is a dog shit after 10.7. Memory leaks all over. Especially in the kernel

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Uberbah]

You're moving goalposts.

Not even remotely close, Hateboi.

Besides, this is Slashdot. If you don't build your own computers, you shouldn't be here. Perhaps Facebook or Twitter is more your speed, son.

So, still no example of an equivalent product selling for less money (or offering much better specs). If Apple sucks so bad that would be easy for you to do....

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Uberbah]

Wow, the literal use of fishing jargon by an infamous troll.

What, Hitchens? That the guy was a racist warmonger does nothing to change the fact that his simple quote is a direct, easy answer to the lazy people who say "don't believe me? Google it!"

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Uberbah]

Ooh! Nice Quote! That's a KEEPER, thanks!!!

No problem - I wish I'd come up with it, but thus the citation. The context was Hitchens debating creationists and getting fed up with them saying 'XYZ is true because the Bible says so!'

One could easily find a sandwich bun 7" in diameter (I live in the Midwest US, where pork tenderloin patties are typically the size of a dinner plate!)

Hmmm, tenderloin...

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Uberbah]

Sounds like a typical lazy apple cultist cop-out. But then apple zealots dont seem big on educating themselves especially since the original poster is an apple shill that often makes bullshit statement about apple with providing any proof therefore...

Sounds like typical lazy Hateboi projection. Y'know, if Apple sucks so bad and there are so many equivalent products for far lower prices, it would be easy for you to find one...but all you got is Hatorade.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[gnasher719]

What? 32GB DDR-4 SO-DIMMs Should cost around 200-300$. Wtf are you smoking.

Idiot. Read what I posted: I checked the Crucial website for 32GB DDR-4 chips, and they had _none_ on their website. If you say they should cost $200 - $300, post where you get them. And I mean not chips with "32 GB" printed on them, but chips with 32 working GB inside.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a good value. But for other reason. A day of my time, a single missed call with a customer can cause my company to lose several million dollars in the long run. I can literally throw my surface out the window, have smash on the street below and within 10 years IT would provide me with a replacement machine and nobody would be the wiser.

I actually need a $300 celeron (U, not stupid atom) based laptop. I work in Jura, share point and outlook. All the files I produce and consume are in box. All paid for by the company I work for. A surface has a great value for me. It is a tool. For personal use I have a surface RT when it was so heavily discounted that it meant MS was giving you the computer for free included in the price of a perpetual on-premise office 2013. Surface RT was a great deal exactly for this.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

I do all my I/O over TCP/IP you insesnsitove clod

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

The Mac Mini is made using laptop parts. AFAIK

True before.

Not THIS version. Desktop parts. BGA CPU package; but it IS a Desktop version. Apple made a point of pointing that out.

This is NOT Apple's idea of a low-cost "Switcher" system. This is their idea of a good little multipurpose desktop/cluster system for a reasonable price, assuming you are ok with adding an eGPU for certain applications. And yes, you are pretty much expected to keep most files on some external storage. Like Pros do.

According to the Teardowns, the SSD in the Mac mini (128 GB) is a:

Toshiba TSB3225V81199TWNA1 flash storage (128 GB total)

As far as the SSD endurance goes, other than an MTBF spec of 1,500,000 hours (roughly 1.5 of a typical HDD, although some He-filled drives advertise 2,000,000 hrs MTBF), I can't find a "Write Endurance" spec. But, I assume that these SSDs are a cousin to these Toshiba Flash modules. Here's an in-depth benchmark and review of this likely SSD in a non-Mac environment:

https://hothardware.com/review...

Notice that they said that these are relatively expensive modules, in the neighborhood of $.049/GB at OEM quantities. That means that the 128 GB SSD in the Base Mac mini is likely costing APPLE around $60. Of course, I'm sure Apple has a good deal on these; but they aren't getting them for $20, or probably even $50. So, if you want to find some of that extra cost in this go-around of the Mac mini can be traced to these pricey (but nicely performing overall) Toshiba SSD modules. That, and the fact that the CPUs in this year's mini definitely cost more than the CPU in the 2014 version. I wouldn't be surprised if the CPUs are roughly double the cost of the old ones. It all adds up.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

The check is in the mail.

-Tim

Re:Soldered CPU?

[DNS-and-BIND]

Ever seen a CPU upgrade? Eh, I'm wasting my breath arguing with Apple funded AstroTurf posters.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

So no counterargument whatsoever.
Ok, thanks for the concession.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

A "standard" slice of bread is 10.16cm x 10.16cm. Mini ITX is 17cm x 17cm. Mac Mini is 19.7cm x 19.7cm.

You could easily put together a Mini ITX PC that was the same size as a Mac Mini...for quite a bit less money and with better specs.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[UnknowingFool]

You could easily put together a Mini ITX PC that was the same size as a Mac Mini...for quite a bit less money and with better specs.

I doubt you could fit in a power supply in the 2cm X 2cm area that is difference between a mini-itx case and the Mac Mini footprint.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[geekmux]

A top-of-the-line Mac Mini is now over $4000, and Apple labels this as their "entry-level" model.

You are being ridiculous. The "top-of-the-line" Mac Mini is so expensive because it can be upgraded to 64 GB Ram / 2TB SSD. Would it make you happier if it could be upgraded to 32GB / 1TB only for much less money? BTW. You can upgrade the RAM yourself, and there are four thunderbolt parts where you can attach the fastest and biggest SSD drives you can find.

Mac Minis are not meant to be massive performance machines regardless of their configuration. The 2018 model is no different than the 2012 model in this regard (other than the now asinine price). A 2TB SSD option for $1400? Is that supposed to impress me in 2018? And a 32GB/1TB configuration is still almost $2000.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[geekmux]

I remember when people "expected" an optical drive in their computers, are you still mad at Apple for not including that as standard equipment on their computers? I'm not sure if kids these days even know that a CD or DVD were used in computers, I mean other than to play music and movies on them.

Perhaps you should sit and ponder about this. You might find that you answered your own question.

A top-of-the-line Mac Mini (that still had user-replaceable storage and memory) was barely over $1000 in 2012. A top-of-the-line Mac Mini is now over $4000, and Apple labels this as their "entry-level" model.

That was 4 cores and seven years ago. Also with that money comes a computer with ThunderBolt 3, 10Gb Ethernet, SSD, and far more RAM. Apparently some people believe it's worth the price.

I didn't even bother to include the 10Gb Ethernet option (winner for Most Pointless Feature) when configuring a $4000+ Mac Mini.

Thunderbolt 3 (runner-up for Most Pointless Feature) only impresses people who want to pay an equally asinine price for some peripheral that likely doesn't even justify that proprietary connection. No doubt it can perform. No doubt you're gonna pay a shitload of money to actually use it. It's kind of like arguing about the benefits of a "free" 5th-wheel option on a $50,000 truck; the feature is pointless without attaching something big and expensive to it.

Is 2TB worth of non-removable storage supposed to impress me? I guess for $1400, I should be impressed that consumers can bend over that far.

If you don't like it then don't buy one.

Apple doesn't care what consumers "like", so that's irrelevant. They care about what features and options make them the most money. Those who will actually buy a $4000+ Mac Mini are rare. Those who will actually use a $4000+ Mac Mini are even rarer.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

Ever seen a CPU upgrade? Eh, I'm wasting my breath arguing with Apple funded AstroTurf posters.

To answer your question: I know retail packages of CPUs "for upgrades" exist, and even worked in a computer store in my youth that sold them; but I seriously don't personally remember any of my friends (or really anybody) buying a CPU for an "upgrade" to an existing motherhoard. For a New motherboards, yes, of course. But for just a "CPU upgrade"? No, not really. I'm sure some fraction of a percent actually DO upgrade CPUs; but it sure ain't a common occurrence.

And as I have pointed out elsewhere in this thread, Intel seems to go out of its way to make CPU Upgrades impossible. For example, if you wanted to go just from a 7th gen Intel i7 to an 8th gen, you CAN'T! Same socket; but different. (And incompatible!) chipset, and more importantly, different PINOUT for the CPU. Both things are show-stoppers to any sort of "Upgrade" of that chip. So what's the point of some expensive (when you are talking about "production quantities") and fairly large, CPU socket?

And if I am indeed a paid shill for Apple, I've got to call my "handler". Seems like I haven't been receiving my checks for the past FORTY-TWO YEARS!

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

I said the Surface Pro is aimed at corporate users who prefer looks over function, just like with Apple. I don't know what you're complaining about.

I would never touch anything like the Surface Pro. I'd buy a gaming laptop instead.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I forgot we exist only in two dimensions and that there is no such thing as up or down.

You Apple shills really are pathetic. You never have valid arguments, so you constantly reach tenuously.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

When you call people "haters", it is a childish indication that you have no valid argument.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. My Alienware laptop certainly has a socketed CPU. Any non-cheap, non-crap laptop will have a socketed CPU.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or in your case you were never in the 90s, little boy. I know you're happy and proud of that Macintrash that your millennial mommy and daddy bought you for getting a C+ on your report card, but nobody in the real world uses them because they are garbage.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Tough Love]

Even an Apple thug like you knows the I-mac mini is an overpriced piece of shit that nobody needs.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Irrational Apple hater rages impotently

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can accept apples compromises, the rest of us dont have to.
We are not all mind apple worshipping drones.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your ignorance and lack of experience should not be a detriment to everyone else.
So FUCK off

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Tough Love]

I see you're not even trying to defend the indefensible.

BTW, you are obsessed with my posts, are you ok?

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

42 years and still a fucking amateur.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Great rebuttal asshat. Your a disgusting hateful person

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Irrational Apple hater pounds his tiny fists and wails in frustration as the world ignores his irrelevant whining.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Tough Love]

Got your attention, haven't I.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[DNS-and-BIND]

At a certain point your posts are indistinguishable from paid shills. When you energetically take the side of ruthless capitalists, people are going to wonder why. Getting paid is the only reason why. If you're doing it for free you're a sucker, Apple pays good money for posts like yours.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[TheFakeTimCook]

At a certain point your posts are indistinguishable from paid shills. When you energetically take the side of ruthless capitalists, people are going to wonder why. Getting paid is the only reason why. If you're doing it for free you're a sucker, Apple pays good money for posts like yours.

Actually, maybe in your world, money is the only motivator.

However, in my world (which is the only world that matters to me), helping to educate and eliminate misconceptions regarding things I believe bring value to the world is important, too.

That isn't phrased exactly the way I would like; but I don't have much time to devote to wordcraft this morning, and this is all pre-coffee; so gimme a break, willya?...

Re: Soldered CPU?

[UnknowingFool]

In my reality the Mac Mini is 3.6 cm tall and the inside of one is not empty space. There are other components like fans that take up space.

Also in reality very few case manufacturers make an itx case as small as a Mac Mini. The Silverstone PT13 comes close; however, you have to use a special itx board and SO-DIMM and must use specific CPU fans.

The only models that really compete with the Mac Mini are Intel NUCs but they are custom boards with soldered CPUs. So before you accuse someone of being a shill, I suggest you check reality.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously to not reliability. Reliability is better than not reliability. Duh!

Maybe they were saying reliability is more important that wallet size.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Megane]

When it is time to change out the CPU there is a newer RAM type.

And probably a new CPU socket type too, since the newer RAM probably isn't just the same wires only a little faster. And then there's the TDP, which is limited in such a small device. RAM keeps a consistent interface over a much longer time than CPU generations. I am much more annoyed over soldered down SSD than CPU.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Like a child throwing a tantrum in Walmart.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Tough Love]

So where were we with the Apple meltdown? Right, down 5% today. And 15% for the month. Because I-phone suppliers had their orders cut.

Who is right? :)

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Irrational Apple hater desperately hyperbolizes to compensate for a half-decade of laughable incorrectness.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Tough Love]

Apple slimeball just can't tear his eyes away from my posts. I hope you own AAPL stock. .

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.

Just kidding, you don't own anything.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

More petulance from irrational Apple hater.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Uberbah]

Whines the hater with completely irrational feelings towards a company who's products he's free not to buy. And whines some more about valid arguments when he can't provide an example to back up his assertion.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Uberbah]

The check is in the mail. -Tim

So, still no example of an equivalent product selling for less money (or offering much better specs). If Apple sucks so bad that would be easy for you to do....

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Cmdln Daco]

Shouldn't you be trolling the 'haters'??

Oh, wait....

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you go from "Dumbass, the 2400G has Vega on board" to "2400G is a computer"?

He should have said "on-die", and it is on-die and thus there definitely is Vega graphics although limited by the memory bandwidth and then thermals.
The 2400GE is the 35W version and thus this one should go into a low profile case, heatsink included, or the Athlon 200GE if you don't need that much performance.
Is it better than the Mini? For games yes absolutely. For CPU the Mac may be better, but perhaps needs an upgrade to the i5 model else the 4C/4T Intel should have trouble vs the 4C/8T AMD.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

I do like the idea of Mini-STX very much. It's a micro tower and so it trivially gets the volume needed for the CPU cooler and that's almost all that matters. Pictures show it with the Intel desktop cooler. Then it can have two 2.5" drives on the top which may be the cheapest per GB SSDs and laptop HDDs, so you're not forced to own a mess of drives and wires or a NAS.

It looks like the NEC PC-FX
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC-FX
Vertical can be less footprint than horizontal on a desk or in some corner of your stuff.

Mini-ITX may be fine but you have some big cube or gamer ITX cases, then to get it smaller you need it more expensive and slower (case, PSU, 35W CPU). Looks great if you go with a Celeron or Athlon GE, that way the $50 CPU keeps the total cheap.

I did read that Mini-STX doesn't work with AM4, that's the sad point. Apparently the AM4 socket is slightly big, and/or motherboard doesn't shrink enough.
It would work perfectly with a soldered APU but there may be not much interest in bringing that out (e.g. Ryzen 2800H?, a laptop part, and as many watts and GHz the firmware would allow)

What I would otherwise like is low profile micro-ATX. There's an affordable Antec which can sit upright like a Playstation 2. That's less pretty, it's also like your random HP-Compaq Pentium 4, i.e. real cards slots and storage bays so that feels cramped and I would like it a bit wider (more air, more room, less ugly proportion). The four PCIe slots about match the Thunderbolt abilities of the Mac and low profile PCIe cards are common, even graphics were that needed.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fantastic idea for business. Add a $800 external GPU to your $800 computer, or get a $800 PC with everything internal for about the same performance.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

Two things in that Mac Mini : the cooling seems very competent, they have the luxury of engineering everything together and with quite some bucks spent on it. The PSU is internal, it works out of the box with a universal AC cable and you'll find plenty of those in your cellar, attic, bag of cables or walking over one and picking it up. Like the days we listened to music on little dedicated boxes.
PSU is probably cooled by the same big fan as everything else.

So, the $800 model is not that a bad deal though quite a luxury. I'd say it's worth about $600. The lock out chip makes it suck, esp. the story that if the internal SSD dies the system will refuse to boot and thus everything is dead.

Re: Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

I would say the Mint Box somewhat competes (Linux Mint branded computers made by somebody else)

https://fit-iot.com/web/products/mbm2/mintbox-mini2-specifications/

There are some niceties like dual gigabit ethernet (where it beats the Mac : there are two audio jacks not just one. Apple thinks a desktop for artists and musicians and intellectuals is fine without an input jack)
It's fanless and shaped like a heatsink! About the processor well yes it's a 14 nm quad core Atom.
It supports a stick of 16GB DDR3L and thus it's quite something I'd really want, a quad Atom with 16GB, least watts and most RAM, my entire desktop use is memory starved. (the CPU would hamper game emulators though, still stuck on stuff of the 80s/90s up to N64 and PS1 level or about 486 PC). Note that the memory is rare and expensive so you'd wait years for it to become old forgotten incompatible crap, then buy it for $20 on ebay and upgrade from 8GB to 16GB.

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

regular PCIe slots are bidirectional too, so no magical doubling on the TB3 ports.

"Portability" of your "workstation setup" isn't a big consideration.

Looks like you're killing all interest I had in the Mac Mini (though academic). It looks so appealing as a workstation, or desktop (same thing for over 15 years) that you can carry around as it's small, has ports and doesn't require a power brick. But now I have to forget about it. Even though it looks like 10x smaller than the original luggable computers from the 1980s when you had a choice of oscilloscope or sewing machine form factor.

Something something about M.2 SSD. Like, you can replace a 128GB SSD with a 2TB when cost of the latter collapse. You can probably use a 2TB HDD on a 486 if it has a PCI bus (software exists to bypass 504MB limit, ~8GB limit etc. but playing safe I'll keep at 2TB max)

Re:Soldered CPU?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have one of the Samsung S series and I'd like if it had a stylus. I hit stuff accidentally a lot, like the three "Android buttons".

non-rotating rust

[epine]

It's not like SSDs naturally degrade during their service life by sticking their thumb into a high voltage socket every time you press the "erase" button.

And it's not like the mysterious T2 security chip couldn't prevent you from booting into a future macOS from external media if Apple decides the obsolescence message isn't penetrating your thick skull.

Trust, but keep replacement parts close to hand in a desk drawer.

Re: non-rotating rust

[Anonymous Coward]

It's GNU/Windows 98

Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand your logic.

Reach hand in, pry out CPU; reach hand in, push in new CPU.

Sounds natural to me.

Re:Why?

[UnknowingFool]

What about power requirements and cooling? I imagine you cannot put a large CPU air or water cooler in the Mac mini if you decide you want a core i9 9900K or that the power supply of the Mac Mini could power the CPU.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounds natural to me too, but then I'm not a millennial twat who needs to call an electrician to plug a TV in and I suspect you aren't either.

Dear Moron Apple designer

[thogard]

Non-removable storage is a deal killer. I don't know what gets stored on local computers so it MUST to be wiped before it goes off site for repair.

This means I'm not going to be buying any of these. We have been waiting for years to replace some of the older minis and now I have to figure out what I'm going to do for a replacement. For now banning new Apple stuff from the company will be the policy.

Don't you have to comply with any sort of security polices at Apple?

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple are one of the most secure (hardware-wise) manufacturers today.
ALL data written to the SSD is encrypted by the T2 security processor. To erase the SSD, the T2 simply revokes it's crypto keys and generates new ones, thereby scrambling the contents of the SSD.

I'm just some random dude on the internet though, so don't take my word for it. Read up on the Security Overview. I think it will contain more than enough information to help you make an informed decision one way or the other, instead of just assuming the worst.

https://www.apple.com/mac/docs/Apple_T2_Security_Chip_Overview.pdf

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Anonymous Coward]

That doesn't mean Apple can't decode the data anyway. Every government in the world is trying to make it a legal requirement to do so and building a new chip without that feature could be a billion dollar mistake. I suspect there is already a way to backdoor in the thing.

Until someone pulls the chips off and shows what is on them, I'm not convinced.

A simple M.2 port would have fixed this problem.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Anonymous Coward]

The entire idea behind the PC or "personal computer" was that the user can exchange parts. Okay the CPU being soldered is bad enough but the storage being soldered definitely makes this NOT a personal computer. It is just a computer. I'm afraid we've been marching closer and closer to the death of the consumer PC and this is just another warning shot. Companies would like nothing better than to lock down the hardware and take power away from users. Means more $$$$ for them.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Anonymous Coward]

>> Until someone pulls the chips off and shows what is on them, I'm not convinced.

Dear Moron AC
I assume you did it already on main CPU too, right? Did Intel/ARM/AMD shows you "what is on them"?

Re: Dear Moron Apple designer

[Anonymous Coward]

Well you could probably fit the entire Mini into the mechanical shredder.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[bn-7bc]

--snark-- Well it's not a mainframe or a mini computer is it? and it isn't an embeded system either, which leaves us with a micro computer (commonly reffered to as a pc) -- end snark-- Other than removing/wiping storage when devises go off site, and assuming Apple don't prevent pooting from usb/thunderbolt in the future, what is reaky the problem with the soldered ssd?

Re: Dear Moron Apple designer

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a "warning shot". A warning shot is meant to stop you from doing something, force you to change course, or compel you to surrender. This is a killing shot. The industry is moving towards locked-down black boxes and there is nothing you can do about it.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Anonymous Coward]

ARM did.

If you can't interpret their stencil you can just buy their softcore and synthesize yourself.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Moron thogard

You're not the target market. Apple don't care what you think.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[blindseer]

The entire idea behind the PC or "personal computer" was that the user can exchange parts.

No, that's not the entire idea.

The idea behind a personal computer was a computer small and inexpensive enough for a person to own. Before the personal computer they were very large and very expensive. Early personal computers were not much more than a video game console with a keyboard. The only parts you could exchange, if you could call it that, was a ROM cartridge. Not only was the RAM soldered to the motherboard but the keyboard was integral to the unit. If you didn't like the keyboard then you simply had to deal with it. The CPU was soldered down, and if you wanted storage other than what came with it then you needed to buy some external accessory that plugged into it.

There were some very interesting "hacks" to add on to these early personal computers. I can recall upgrades that would clip on top of the existing chips on the board and somehow bypass the chip it clipped onto. People would take soldering irons to their PC to remove chips and replace them with something faster, stronger, and higher.

There was a subculture in this PC community of people that would exchange parts, which certainly grew after PC makers encouraged this with computers that had expansion slots and sockets. This meant people no longer had to solder to exchange parts. Outside of this subculture the average PC owner was not likely to open the case of their PC.

Here's what the average PC owner wants more than the ability to exchange parts, they want the computer to work. Parts stuck in sockets and slots are less reliable than soldered down parts.

I'm afraid we've been marching closer and closer to the death of the consumer PC and this is just another warning shot.

No, we've been marching closer to the personal computer as an appliance. Do you get yourself worked up that your dishwasher or clothes dryer does not have user serviceable parts? Way back in the day this might have been the norm but then in those days these appliances were far less reliable. I remember seeing someone highlight an appliance advert from the 1950s, in the advert they prided themselves on needing only 3 service calls in 5 years. Today this would be considered unacceptable junk. I remember computers needing this kind of service, where modem cards would need replacing from taking a voltage spike from the phone line, and people often expected to swap out dead hard drives. Computers are appliances again, which is really what many people want.

Means more $$$$ for them.

Of course it does! You think these computer makers are selling computers out of the goodness of their hearts? No, they do it to make money. It turns out that selling reliable computers at a low price makes them more money than unreliable computers with user replaceable parts.

Computers are for computing, not for swapping parts. If you want to take stuff apart and put it together again then I suggest buying some Lego Blocks.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Anonymous Coward]

This means I'm not going to be buying any of these. We have been waiting for years to replace some of the older minis and now I have to figure out what I'm going to do for a replacement. For now banning new Apple stuff from the company will be the policy.

Oh noes! Apple will go bankrupt now without your company's moneys! /sarcasm

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[tlhIngan]

I think the problem was discovered with the iMacs - they had removable storage. Except they were not really removable.

As in, you couldn't take the storage media (it's actually raw flash) and put it in another iMac - it just wouldn't work. You see, the T1/T2 chip is also the SSD controller with the secure enclave and thus, the encryption keys.

So offering a removable module doesn't really do you any good - you certainly can't stick it in any other machine to recover your data because the security key is stored in the T1/T2 chip.

And yes, the T1/T2 chip uses PCIe for the SSD interface.

Re: Dear Moron Apple designer

[Anonymous Coward]

This. A million times. Nerds can't get into their stupid heads that computers are tools. We Real People are interested in results, not means. To those weirdos, computers are life itself: their whole existence revolves around swapping parts and compiling the kernel for some obscure OS nobody is interested in. Hobbyists can have hobbyist kit but we want equipment that works. Do you think photographers enjoy swapping lenses on their cameras? If anyone made a miracle lens that could zoom from 8mm fisheye to 2000mm tele with a f/1.2 aperture on all focal lengths and no distortion, they would use that lens and ditch the rest.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Anonymous Coward]

Use FileVault2 and you don't need to worry about "wiping" the storage. Seriously, keep up with the times.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[gnasher719]

That doesn't mean Apple can't decode the data anyway.

I'll hereby declare you as paranoid.

Unless you can state a good reason why Apple would want the ability to decode the data on your hard drive. There is no upside for them, just downsides. All it would do is cost them time and money providing services for the government, which they have no intent to do.

And you are basing this on the fact that the drive is not removable. What does that have to do with anything? If Apple _could_ read the data, and the NSA wanted the data, they would knock on your door with a warrant, or break in in the middle of the night, and take your Mac mini with the SSD drive, whether it's removable or not.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Anonymous Coward]

No, there's enough sheep/fanbois to keep Apple going for awhile.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Anonymous Coward]

The entire idea behind the PC or "personal computer" was that the user can exchange parts.

No, dumbass, it was the "personal computing" idea. That's why It's called "personal computer" not the "thing with exchangeable parts".

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Jeremi]

Non-removable storage is a deal killer. I don't know what gets stored on local computers so it MUST to be wiped before it goes off site for repair.

Well then, you're in luck, because the Mac Mini isn't repairable anyway. Every time I've taken one of my Mac Mini's in to an Apple store, the only option they could offer me was a motherboard swap.

So if you do buy a Mac Mini and it goes bad, just remove the SSD from the motherboard yourself (using a blowtorch and pruning shears), then re-insert the motherboard and send it out for repair -- the result will be the same and your data won't leave your building.

Re: Dear Moron Apple designer

[Megol]

There are plenty of camera nerds too.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[SvnLyrBrto]

> So if you do buy a Mac Mini and it goes bad, just
> remove the SSD from the motherboard yourself
> (using a blowtorch and pruning shears), then re-
> insert the motherboard and send it out for repair --
> the result will be the same and your data won't leave
> your building.

Not that you should count on it if you have business data that falls under a compliance regime; or if you're just personally very paranoid. But Apple wipes the storage of any Mac or iDevice they depot for repairs. The do not, will not, and can not, do data recovery; not even if you go in begging and pleading that they pull those baby photos or whatever off the iPhone you dropped and smashed up. If you don't have backups, you're just SOL (and pretty stupid, as well).

Re: Dear Moron Apple designer

[SvnLyrBrto]

Plus, there are different kinds of nerds/geeks/whatever.

I used to have my assortment of serial cables, grounding straps, and precision screwdrivers. I've built or repaired plenty of systems. I've replaced iPod and iPhone screens and batteries. I've cracked open my own iMacs to replace hard drives and to roll my own Fusion drive. I've burned myself with soldering irons. And I've left plenty of blood sacrifices on the backs of server racks. (My hands are too large to be a good cage monkey. But when the job has to get done...).

And you know what? I'm done with that crap. These days, I build secure and resilient systems on various clouds. And that's more fun to me now than mucking about with tiny screws, sharp metal edges, and static electricity hazards ever was. At this point, I'm perfectly happy to leave the hardware side to other people.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Kjella]

Here's what the average PC owner wants more than the ability to exchange parts, they want the computer to work. Parts stuck in sockets and slots are less reliable than soldered down parts.

I'm 99.9% sure that's bullshit otherwise servers would be the first to have soldered parts, not laptops. It's all about cost. Lower production cost and not dealing with support costs because people meddled with it, no logistics for parts, no repair instructions or tools. A lot of devices like the Surface Laptop 2 that got a 0/10 score by iFixit is clearly not designed to be repaired by anyone, including Microsoft. Inside warranty if it breaks they replace it, outside warranty you're shit out of luck.

Computers are appliances again, which is really what many people want.

Actually they're going one step past that, the computer is just the terminal to access your data. Your iPhone syncs everything to iCloud, if your phone breaks just grab another and sync it back up. Steam is the same, by default you sync your save games online so just log into another computer and pick up where you left off. Your local HDD is just a cache to the cloud...

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Wrath0fb0b]

Non-removable storage is a deal killer. I don't know what gets stored on local computers so it MUST to be wiped before it goes off site for repair.

Wiping data sounds good, but what does that have to do with removable storage? You can boot from USB (or to the recovery partition) and do an erase right there.

Don't you have to comply with any sort of security polices at Apple?

I imagine yes, but that has nothing to do with the old style of punching holes through magnetic media.

I've worked with more than one company now whose architecture is such that even if a band of thieves broke into the DC and stole the entire rack, they'd have nothing of value on the disks. All the data were encrypted at rest and the keys held only in RAM. As such, they reviewed and removed the 'erase drives' provision entirely. Decommissioning a machine just means ensuring it powercycles.

[ Now, in theory, if they could steal them and keep them powered, then break in, sure. Or if they could pwn the machines before stealing them, they could have it write the keys persistently -- but in that case, why bother physically stealing them at all? ]

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Anonymous Coward]

> Non-removable storage is a deal killer.

Agreed. Of all the things to solder down that's ridiculous. On average over the long term RAM prices and storage prices go down, but storage drops much faster. It's the one thing I'm upgrading most frequently in machines. You can't even swap the storage to another machine and try to recover data if something goes bad on the mainboard or it gets damaged somehow. It's dumb to have the storage soldered down.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[blindseer]

Here's what the average PC owner wants more than the ability to exchange parts, they want the computer to work. Parts stuck in sockets and slots are less reliable than soldered down parts.

I'm 99.9% sure that's bullshit otherwise servers would be the first to have soldered parts, not laptops. It's all about cost. Lower production cost and not dealing with support costs because people meddled with it, no logistics for parts, no repair instructions or tools. A lot of devices like the Surface Laptop 2 that got a 0/10 score by iFixit is clearly not designed to be repaired by anyone, including Microsoft. Inside warranty if it breaks they replace it, outside warranty you're shit out of luck.

Let's assume it is bullshit. Servers are a much smaller market, for people that can be expected to "tinker" a bit with the hardware, and on a far larger budget. The ability to swap out parts is far more valuable even if it comes at the cost of lowered reliability if that reliability comes with things like ease and speed of repairs. Even servers have become more "appliance like" in that they come with multiple Ethernet ports on the motherboard, built in video (crappy VGA video because it's a server, but video on the motherboard regardless), and perhaps other features that would have been add-in cards not long ago. The parts one can swap out are minimal by the standards of not so long ago, when people had to install their own drive controllers and NICs.

Computers are appliances again, which is really what many people want.

Actually they're going one step past that, the computer is just the terminal to access your data. Your iPhone syncs everything to iCloud, if your phone breaks just grab another and sync it back up. Steam is the same, by default you sync your save games online so just log into another computer and pick up where you left off. Your local HDD is just a cache to the cloud...

That's true. People simply don't want to swap out parts on their computers any more than they wanted to swap out vacuum tubes on their TV set. Once the electronics got to a certain point of reliability and affordability it simply doesn't make sense to have the parts user serviceable. A desire to lower costs, weight, and size add to that. Having speedy and ubiquitous internet access allows for further freedoms on their hardware needs.

The parts swapping set of the computer user are a small part of the computer market. Apple is not in the market for the part swapper set, and the part swappers don't like an OS they can't open up the code to either. In other words, if you don't like Apple then don't buy from them.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Kjella]

Let's assume it is bullshit. Servers are a much smaller market, for people that can be expected to "tinker" a bit with the hardware, and on a far larger budget. The ability to swap out parts is far more valuable even if it comes at the cost of lowered reliability if that reliability comes with things like ease and speed of repairs.

Uhm... no. In the vast majority of cases the main cost is how often you need to pull a machine from service and replace it with another, not how long it's out for because that's rarely within your SLA. Redundancy, hot spare, cold spare, clustering, horizontal scaling, re-provisioning there's many ways but waiting for the technician to replace your faulty hardware is usually not it. Maybe if this is the SMB market but for data centers I think they'd easily swap replacement time for incident rate, people pay ridiculous money for that 99.999% uptime so just replace the bad with good, figure out what went wrong later. At least that's my impression of modern server management.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[_merlin]

You can still ensure that the data doesn't leave the premises in that case - rip the Flash out before sending it in for repair and you know they can't get the data with some kind of back door. You can't read the data out yourself, but you had backups of the important stuff anyway, right?

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[thogard]

If the machine is somewhat dead, you can't boot from something else to erase the internal flash and you can't put it in what used to be called target mode.

Even with external storage, if a secret file got moved to swap and the machine dies, that secret is on the flash chips. Encrypted or not, the government mandated procedure says it doesn't leave my security zone until destroyed. These types of government regulations exist in the USA, Canada, Australia, EU, Japan, Russia and China.

I don't care if I can't move the flash to another machine and have it usable without reformatting but it must be removable. In the world of transparent encryption, I should be able to format it with a key of my choice and move it to some other device and enter that key or else it looks like another Clipper chip sleight of hand.

Their non-removable storage is a deal killer. I won't be buying them. I also won't be supporting individual users on two platforms so now all new machines will have to be windows (they insist on native office so no linux), and that means no more approvals for mac lap tops either. I expect that will have a carry on effect future iPhone sales as well.

Disposing of a repairable device goes against the green and e-waste policies too. How am I going to dispose of these since I can shred these things? I don't care if the case is 100 recycled aluminum (as if the old ones where close to that) if the whole thing is as disposable as a beer can.

Re:Dear Moron Apple designer

[Wrath0fb0b]

the government mandated procedure says it doesn't leave my security zone until destroyed.

Indeed. And our SOP for compliance states that we will physically destroy the encryption keys and that completes the procedure of destroying the data.

YMMV because you might have different sit policies, but that's ours :-)

Limited Space

[GrBear]

Compared to the previous model it seems Apple decided to ditch the 2.5" spinner in an effort to give us removable RAM in the same form factor. Let's face it, Apple was never going to increase the thickness of the Mac Mini to allow for both swappable RAM and storage. They only want to make things smaller and thinner.

It's six of one, half dozen of another. Be stuck with factory size RAM and upgradable storage, or factory size storage and upgradable RAM.

I'm split on their decision knowing the premium they charge for both RAM and SSD storage. In the end though, I think they made the right choice between the two. I can add external storage, but you can't add external RAM. It doesn't mean I'm happy with either option, but this one seems the most reasonable of the two.

I'll probably just hold off and wait to see what the new Mac Pro brings instead.

Re:Limited Space

[geekmux]

Compared to the previous model it seems Apple decided to ditch the 2.5" spinner in an effort to give us removable RAM in the same form factor. Let's face it, Apple was never going to increase the thickness of the Mac Mini to allow for both swappable RAM and storage. They only want to make things smaller and thinner.

Uh, hate to point out the obvious, but the dimensions of the 2018 Mac Mini are exactly the same as the 2012 Mac Mini that held two 2.5" hard drives, and had user-replaceable memory (2 slots).

Quite frankly, I'm shocked to find that the memory can be upgraded, but since they're charging consumers $1400 to max out the memory on this model, that's hardly a concession. 95% of consumers can't even spell RAM let alone know how to replace it, so Apple will continue ripping off consumers for memory upgrades.

m.2

[Anonymous Coward]

Just how much space does an m.2 SSD take? The 2012 mini had space for two 2.5 drives, but the 2018 can't fit an m.2?

Re:m.2

[GrBear]

True, but the space taken up by removable RAM slots take up is considerable for the overall size of the Mini's motherboard. And I wouldn't be surprised if the cooling system wasn't beefed up to cut down on CPU throttling.

Also, m.2 drives take up a bit of space as well which is why you find smaller PC mobos going through extra lengths like putting the m.2 socket on the backside of the board rather than the component side.

I'm not apologizing for Apple's design, just my two bits.. or half a nibble.

Re:m.2

[drinkypoo]

Also, m.2 drives take up a bit of space as well which is why you find smaller PC mobos going through extra lengths like putting the m.2 socket on the backside of the board rather than the component side.

In a tiny design like this, on the bottom of the board is precisely where you should place the field-replaceable parts like RAM and, normally, storage.

I'm counting 28 mainboard versions

[The Optimizer]

Based on the teardown, and fiddling with Apple's online purchase configuration, it looks like they must have 28 different versions of the 201 Mac Mini mainboard.

Options for components soldered onto the mainboard:

3 different CPUs (i3, i5 and i7)

5, 4 and 5 SSD options (128, 256, 512, 1TB and 2TB) depending on the CPU. i5 can't be equipped with 128GB, but i7 can as CPU upgrade from i3

2 different Ethernet NICs ( Gigabit and 10GB )

So ( 5 + 4 + 5 ) * 2 = 28 different sets of components soldered to the mainboard.

Even for Apple, that's a lot of variations. I'm somewhat surprised they didn't go with docketed storage, which would reduced the Mac Mini to 6 different mainboard configurations.

Re:I'm counting 28 mainboard versions

[Anonymous Coward]

Har. docketed. Har.

Re: I'm counting 28 mainboard versions

[Anonymous Coward]

How environmental of them. /sarcasm

Re:I'm counting 28 mainboard versions

[El Cubano]

That is, unless they only have, say, 1 TB and 2 TB drives and maybe two or three physical memory configurations and they can factory disable the "extra" that the customer didn't pay for.

If Apple did that, if could actually be cheaper than managing the large number of variations and still allow them to maximize profits by price discrimination.

As I understand it, HP or IBM did something similar with their servers ages ago (maybe they still do), where you paid for additional CPU, memory, or whatever, and what you paid for was a code that granted you access to the extra capacity because the machine shipped with it from the factory in a disabled state.

Re:I'm counting 28 mainboard versions

[The Optimizer]

Apple wouldn't leave a lot 'money on table' with more expensive NAND so lets say they did 3 different sets of NAND flash: 512, 1TB and 2TB and fused off access to make 128 and 256GB configurations.

That's still 3 x 3 x 2 or 18 different main board variations, which is more than the 2014 Mini, which had 9 motherboard versions (the most for a Mini to that point in time). So not that likely.

I'm guessing Apples bigger plans regarding the T2 Chip and security trumped the streamlining of manufacturing issues and costs enough to make them choose this path.

Now I wonder which of the 28 variations will be the rarest.

Soldered storage = consumption item

[Anonymous Coward]

By soldering this type of tripple-level flash storage, which is fast but also wears out fast, they've turned the Mac Mini into a consumption item -- you will need to replace it in a couple of years due to the storage having worn down too much.

Apple are better than anyone else at turning expensive electronics into throw-away items, making them some of the biggest environmental crooks on the planet. Well played by America, as always.

Re: Soldered storage = consumption item

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, and at the rate we're going, the planet we live on will wind up with a second moon-- an artificial one. Oh, and it *will* have a pretty ring around it, when the Cupertino HQ has been set for launch... and dock once it's in orbit.

There are better small form factor PC's

[Anonymous Coward]

There are better and easier to upgrade small form factor PC's out there. The Intel NUC come to mind as one. However for the Apple faithful the new Mac Mini I suppose is a welcome addition to the Mac lineup. But its certainly not a affordable entry level Mac anymore. Personally I would have rather paid for soldered RAM and had a ability to replace storage.

FA

[AndyKron]

Apple Lisa. Never forget

Re:FA

[gnasher719]

Apple Lisa. Never forget

I can remember on CeBit seeing an Apple Lisa head to head against a Xerox Star at five times the price, and the Lisa ran rings around it.

OK guys...

[3seas]

Who doesn't know about built-in obsolescence? I think if you look you will find classes on best practices for this.

Re:OK guys...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but there are limits to this concept. Its one thing to obsolete it later down the road with more demanding software, but its yet another when you cant repair limited lifespan components.

Foldered SSD = Disposable Computer

[BrendaEM]

Additionally, my roommate wanted 4TB for his music collection. Sadly, he has to use external storage, now. So much for people using Minis for servers. Idiots!

Re:Foldered SSD = Disposable Computer

[Anonymous Coward]

Your roommate? Who the fuck bothers with a 4tb music collection? Just get Spotify. Or an external 4tb hard drive + a raspberry pi, which is all you need for a music server.

Re:Foldered SSD = Disposable Computer

[Anonymous Coward]

Just get Spotify.

You mean the Spotify that regularly makes music unavailable that was there the day before? The one that doesn't work without an Internet connection unless you have stuff on local storage? That Spotify?

Soldered SSD

[nonicknameavailable]

Soldered SSD means that that you wont be recovering your files when something dies on the motherboard (one drop of water does it)

Re:Soldered SSD

[iggymanz]

idiots don't have backups

SSD can fail anyway, soldered or not

Re:Soldered SSD

[Anonymous Coward]

Soldered SSD means that that you wont be recovering your files when something dies on the motherboard (one drop of water does it)

• Soldered SSD means if (when) the drive fails, Apple will charge you to replace the whole motherboard.
• Soldered SSD means if the system fails, you can't pop the drive out and slot into a replacement machine, or continue to access it by plugging it into an external dock.
• Soldered SSD means you can't buy what's the right size for the next few years, then replace it with something higher-capacity as and when you need it.
• Soldered SSD means you can't securely dispose of the drive and swap in a fresh one when the time comes to upgrade.

So far, all I'm seeing is "the 2018 Mac Mini is a step in the right direction, but the 2012 remains the best/most flexible option". I accept that you shouldn't expect to be able to swap too many parts in a machine this small, but RAM and storage are an expected minimum. Even non-Apple laptops, hardware in the same size-class, get that right.

Storage fumble

[fyngyrz]

The CPU isn't much of an issue for me, as the failure rate of these parts has historically been low. Also, you can configure in a pretty performant CPU considering the size of the mini. It'll cost you, but still.

However, soldering in flash storage — I consider that a form of planned obsolescence. Especially as it is such a small bit of storage.

To make this machine last dependably, an external drive will have to be added, and (at least) all OS and application write targets (like logs, your files, etc.) need to be moved there so that the write rate to the flash is reduced as much as possible. Why? Because when that flash storage dies — and it will if you constantly write to it — the storage is useless, and you're right back to adding an external drive anyway. Better yet, outright make the external drive the boot drive and forget the internal drive exists.

Quite aside from the desk wart problem (so much for a nice, compact computer, one of the mini's real claims to fame), this means both extra cost and inconvenience.

Or IOW, Apple borks the mini again.

Unintentional? I don't think so.

I'm still waiting to see if they produce a Mac Pro worth my money. The trashcan certainly wasn't. That thing is just pitiful, design-wise.

On the plus side, EBay's a veritable gold mine of good Mac Pros from the pre-trashcan era, and I have picked up several of those. A 2010-era 12/24-core Mac Pro has a great case, can run 10.12.6 without problems, and can handle very large workloads. A 64 GB, 12-24-core, graphics-card-having, multiple REMOVABLE drive machine tends to land in the $1000-$2000 range, depending on your patience with auction hunting. For most tasks, that'll do ya. Cost you less up front than one of these minis tricked out to be reasonably powerful, too. You want SSD? Just throw one in a drive tray with an adapter, and Robert's your mother's brother. You want a better graphics card, more monitors? Just add (a) graphic(s) cards. You want to change / resize memory? Go ahead. So easy. You want connectivity? The machine has plenty, and there are card slots, too, and nice cards to go in 'em.

Re:Storage fumble

[Anonymous Coward]

"planned obsolescence". That is apples forte!

Re:Storage fumble

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey grandpa, this isn't the 90s. SSD drives will last decades.

Your advice to dig through Ebay for a 10 year old machine is insane. It's crazy that some weirdo who lives in Montana with a bunch of cats gives advice to Silicon Valley people who actually know what they're talking about.

Re: Storage fumble

[Anonymous Coward]

SSDs lasting decades LUL. Mod + funny

Ugh

[fyngyrz]

Graphics card slots are a fantastic idea.

FTFY.

External GPUs are just more insecure, mechanically-at-risk, wire-nest making desk turds.

External GPU, what a bad idea.

[fyngyrz]

The entire rest of the industry and reviewers don't think so.

Oh, you mean the people who are removing audio jacks, putting notches in phones, going without memory card slots on phones and pads, and puking out designs like Apple's trashcan? The ones that want to litter our desks with cords and wall warts and little boxes? The ones that pulled magsafe off of laptops? The ones that obsoleted PPC binaries by dropping the "we'll keep your stuff running PPC-on-Intel engine"? Those people?

Huh.

Re:External GPU, what a bad idea.

[TheFakeTimCook]

The entire rest of the industry and reviewers don't think so.

Oh, you mean the people who are removing audio jacks, putting notches in phones, going without memory card slots on phones and pads, and puking out designs like Apple's trashcan? The ones that want to litter our desks with cords and wall warts and little boxes? The ones that pulled magsafe off of laptops? The ones that obsoleted PPC binaries by dropping the "we'll keep your stuff running PPC-on-Intel engine"? Those people?

Huh.

No. Not those people.

I was talking about the people who USE and REVIEW those systems.

Moron.

And you're still Butthurt about Rosetta?

If Apple hadn't killed-off Rosetta after one major OS rev, there arguably would STILL be no Intel-Native Mac version of Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator or ProTools. And, if you know that much Mac history, you KNOW that's true!

Re:External GPU, what a bad idea.

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't matter what people use. People use the lowest common denominator. Doesn't make it better. Just makes it better advertised.

Re:External GPU, what a bad idea.

[fyngyrz]

No. Not those people.

Oh, just the people who think those things are good.

Got it.

If Apple hadn't killed-off Rosetta after one major OS rev, there arguably would STILL be no Intel-Native Mac version of [highly dubious and entirely speculative list redacted]

That's nonsense. Rosetta can still be run in a VM (and yes, I do run it in a VM, so I'm quite sure.) If those companies wanted to rest on their laurels, they certainly could. But they didn't, so your entire thesis here is nonsensical.

Re:External GPU, what a bad idea.

[TheFakeTimCook]

No. Not those people.

Oh, just the people who think those things are good.

Got it.

If Apple hadn't killed-off Rosetta after one major OS rev, there arguably would STILL be no Intel-Native Mac version of [highly dubious and entirely speculative list redacted]

That's nonsense. Rosetta can still be run in a VM (and yes, I do run it in a VM, so I'm quite sure.) If those companies wanted to rest on their laurels, they certainly could. But they didn't, so your entire thesis here is nonsensical.

No, it isn't nonsensical.

Without DECENT (i.e., "fast") "CC" Application Support, Macs would have had a REALLY rough time of it, JUST when momentum for the platform was starting to build again.

You apparently slept through all the moaning about how hideous Office and Adobe applications were while running under Rosetta.

And anyone who still runs Rosetta in November, 2018, more than seven years after it was obsoleted in 2011, better have a VERY good reason; like a piece of CUSTOM code for which the source is long-gone, but which still is an essential part of some workflow. Anything else is pretty much just luddite bullshit at this point.

No matter how you slice it

[fyngyrz]

There are more ham sandwich sizes in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

It's not the CPU that concerns me

[fyngyrz]

BUT since 1975 I've never experienced a CPU failure over the span of mainframe, mini, desktop, laptop nor iDevice.

SSD memory, however... that is a point of failure unless it is superseded by an external drive. And this machine has it soldered in.

get real

[Anonymous Coward]

anyone that expected anything otherwise was obviously not thinking (and I say that as a fan of Macs)

AC Clueless

[fyngyrz]

SSD drives will last decades.

Sure. If you don't write to them. And the smaller the SSD drive (and this machine comes with a small SSD drive), the faster they'll wear out when written to. If you depend on that drive, and actually, you know, do real work with the machine, you're going to be writing quite a bit. Flash is great — as long as you can replace it. With this machine, you can't. Hence, a smart setup will use an external drive, and suffer the inconveniences and risks of external desktop storage.

Your advice to dig through Ebay for a 10 year old machine is insane.

Hey yourself, you let us all know when you find a better computer case design than the 2010-ish Mac Pros that can legally run OSX/MacOS. RFI-emitting, hard-to-install-stuff-in plasti-hackintosh-cases and desk-turd-having insufficiently-expandable, non-ECC system designs aren't for everyone.

Now you've gone and made me reduce the life of my hyphen key. :)

T2 security chip

[Anonymous Coward]

They can take that and shove it.

As well, they can shove a PC that you cant fix. SSDs DO fail. ( as do batteries in laptops.. f-u apple . and i used to be a fan )

Apple customers don't object. Here's why:

[couchslug]

For them Apple products are disposably cheap.
They don't need to upgrade parts because they replace obsolete computers.
They don't need to work on their own hardware.
They get the user experience they desire.
They love their machines or they wouldn't be repeat customers.

It really is that simple.

I've never wanted an Apple machine because my use case does not need that operating system or the severely limited hardware which goes with it. Apple doesn't need my custom and I don't need their hardware.

Re:Apple customers don't object. Here's why:

[gnasher719]

All Apple computers are easily upgradable.

Step 1: Put your Mac on eBay.
Step 2: Order a new Mac. Seriously, prices for used Macs on eBay are so high, it works out.

Not a surprise. Get a PC.

[Anonymous Coward]

From what I know from the vast majority of Apple users, you can put a fresh piece of smelling crap inside it and people will still insist in buying these computers.