NYC Votes To Set Minimum Pay For Uber, Lyft Drivers (arstechnica.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: On Tuesday, New York City's Taxi and Limousine Commission voted to set a minimum pay rate for Uber, Lyft, and other on-demand ride-hailing drivers. The new rate will be set at $17.22 after expenses, or $26.51 per hour gross. New York is believed to be the first city in the nation to implement such a pay floor. Four months ago, the Big Apple also imposed a cap on the number of such vehicles in the city. The Independent Drivers Guild, a local affiliate of the Machinists Union, advocated for the change. Meanwhile, Uber has already put out a statement saying that increased driver earnings "will lead to higher than necessary fare increases" and that the new rules do not adequately take into account "incentives or bonuses forcing companies to raise rates even higher." "Today we brought desperately needed relief to 80,000 working families. All workers deserve the protection of a fair, livable wage and we are proud to be setting the new bar for contractor workers' rights in America," Jim Conigliaro, Jr., founder of the Independent Drivers Guild, said in a statement.

Comments

NYC Votes To Kill Uber, Lyft Drivers

[sexconker]

Uber and Lyft are dead if their drivers actually get paid. Currently, drivers for both Uber and Lyft make negative money if they have to pay for fuel or vehicle maintenance.

Re: NYC Votes To Kill Uber, Lyft Drivers

[Iwastheone]

These 'ride sharing' "apps" are skirting all local cab companies requirements, such as having fingerprinting/approval by local town codes to ensure no one with a felony are allowed to pick up area residents. Uber's plan is to destroy all cab companies worldwide hoping that auto-drive cars appear, then all the drivers will be out of work. Uber's bleeding investor money, about $1.50 for every $2.50 that they take in. Unless a driver is quite methodical and determines all costs long term, the drivers barely make enough money to be profitable. Uber constantly needs more investor cash yearly, and IMO, won't survive the next year without more billions. Auto-driving cars are at least a decade away, ones that can safely handle all of the conditions humans can mostly handle.

Many cab drivers have been forced to find alternate work, it's just not profitable enough to risk a late model vehicle, as required, to earn a living wage. These are interesting times (an ancient Chinese curse), and the entire cab industry has been broken.

Re: NYC Votes To Kill Uber, Lyft Drivers

[torkus]

It's kind of ... insane that uber is bleeding so much money. Well until you consider what they're spending on politics because of how corrupt the system is.

Especially give the rather larger % of all the billing they do that goes directly in their pocket for having a relatively (well, comparatively) simple app. Granted, it did cause some massive changes to the taxi industry which has now found a good strategy to fight back. After all, who can argue about minimum pay for drivers? That's good, right? Oh, but it doesn't apply to actual TAXI drivers in NYC. Right, because that big scam has far too much ingrained political power (even today) to allow it...instead i'm pretty sure this is their idea (along with the recent additional surcharges for uber/lyft) to push them back out of business and (dirty, obnoxious) taxi's back into prevalence.

Oddly enough, $17/hr is a pretty reasonable wage...and given the risk/need to procure a vehicle that's about aligned with the $15 minimum wage movement.

Higher than necessary pay incnreases?

[Bradmont]

In other words, "paying our workers a reasonable wage is not necessary."

Re:Higher than necessary pay incnreases?

[smoot123]

In other words, "paying drivers that much will make our service affordable to many of our riders."

In Pete's words, "For crying out loud, butt out. If drivers are being paid too little, they'd stop driving. Just how dumb do you think the drivers are?

Re:Higher than necessary pay incnreases?

[ShanghaiBill]

This isn't about helping the drivers. It is about limiting competition with the taxi racket.

Re:Higher than necessary pay incnreases?

[smoot123]

The big problem is that these services will kill Taxi services if these they are not regulated to compete fairly with Taxis. Then, after Taxi services are gone and we're reliant on Uber, you might just wish that were not so.

OK, let's play this out. I like Uber and the like because it's more convenient, pleasant, and cheaper than taxis. How exactly will I be sorry when taxis go out of business?

I assume you think that as soon as taxis go out of business, Uber and Lyft will raise prices. Well, as long as there's competition between the two (and electric scooters and rent-a-bike and Waymo self-driving cars and AirX flying cars and ...) they can't. And there always will be competition unless NYC squashes it.

I'm all for regulating them the same. I suggest removing restrictions on what a taxi can charge and how much they have to pay drivers. And removing restrictions on how many taxis can operate. Let the free market operate.

Re:Higher than necessary pay incnreases?

[b0s0z0ku]

They're better in a couple ways:
(1) You can hail a cab even without a cell phone, or with a phone with a dead battery.
(2) The transaction is anonymous. You can pay cash and keep your privacy.

Re:Higher than necessary pay incnreases?

[omnichad]

Limos don't follow taxi laws either. Calling it "ride sharing" doesn't help their case, but being a private hire vehicle not hailed from the street makes quite a bit of difference with the way most of the laws are written.

Re:Higher than necessary pay incnreases?

[_Sharp'r_]

Great, then by your theory, traditional cabs which work that way have nothing to worry about from the competition of ride share companies, right? Like I said, if they aren't as good for customers, they'll die. If customers like them, they'll stick around. Either way, there's no need to artificially limit their competition.

Re:Higher than necessary pay incnreases?

[_Sharp'r_]

Ah yes, the good old, "I know better what people need than they do." Good to see the instinct towards dictatorship on the left is alive and well.

Re: Higher than necessary pay incnreases?

[GhostBond]

Yeah, Uber from the sirport to my place costs $25-$30, or $20-$25 if I walk outside the airport area before I get a ride.

The same ride in a taxi was $80-$100.

Let's assume Uber is a scam and only just breaking even, someone is still rakong in huge profits off the taxi service. Keep in mind that I might need a taxi to the sirport and at the other end to leave the airport, I'm paying $200 for 2 16 mile trips, to get to and from the airport for a $150 flight flight that travels 1,600 miles.

Time on call... pre travel time.. do they count?

[mark-t]

Are you paid for your time that you say you are available and waiting for someone to need a ride? What about time spent travelling to the pick up point?

Why lie about this?

[SuperKendall]

Currently, drivers for both Uber and Lyft make negative money

How do we all know you are lying? Two ways:

1) What idiot would work for a day for negative money? Yes there remains tons of Lyft and Uber drivers. Therefore, you are lying.

2) Every Uber or Lyft driver I have talked to (and I talk to all of them) make a fair amount of money, most of them love the job because it's a way they can make extra money and they get to choose when and how often to work. They can easily control for higher rates by choosing to work mostly during peak times where surge pricing nets them a lot more. Therefore, you are lying.

Drivers make not make much at times but all of them are savvy and now how to work the system so they are doing much better than "negative money".

If you want something approaching negative money, try being the owner of.a once valuable taxi license...

Re:Why lie about this?

[sexconker]

1: There are plenty of idiots who work for negative money. They do so because they don't realize that they're paying for the increased maintenance and wear on their car. The cost is externalized to the point that they don't realize it exists.

2: They are stupid and / or lying. Go ahead and look up any internet article on the subject. Further, taxi medallions are hugely profitable. Buying into one after Uber / Lyft came into the scene and eschewed all the laws would have been moronic and a huge loss. But actual owners of those medallions are still making obscene amounts of money.

The only way to "work the system" is to get a ton of tips (Uber didn't even let people tip via the app for the longest time, and were shamed into allowing it), or drive for both Uber and Lyft at the same time and pickup double / fake fares when Uber / Lyft are handing out free rides to customers. This was a huge scam recently, and it was reported even here on Slashdot.

As usual, you don't know shit. Now I see why that AC troll goes around posting all that shit about you.

Re: Why lie about this?

[SuperKendall]

They donÃ(TM)t take into account the wear, tear of their POV

First as an aside, I would like to point out Slashdot's new level of input nuttiness in how it converted your "don't" to include the TM!!

But in response to your actual response - that part may be a bit fuzzy, but they do get to write of milage on the car as a business expense, and that should cover we are and tear on most vehicles. Most modern vehicles are actually pretty sturdy and you can't be driving some goldbeater working for Lyft/Uber. The drivers I have met mostly have all been at it for a few years so wear and tear issues would have filtered them out if they were really issues.

A number of the drivers I have met are retired, some execs and some engineers... pretty sure they know how to factor in maintenance costs.

Re:Why lie about this?

[omnichad]

No, it's totally valid. Especially is it's a side job and you have a regular commute. You see that car depreciation and maintenance expense, but you can't quantify how it affects your bottom line very easily. In this case externalized means external to your business budget and perceived profit/loss.

Re: Why lie about this?

[j-beda]

So unless they setup as an LLC, register a business name, and register for a DOT number that's on the vehicle, how can they write that off as a business expense. If they don't, they are NOT as business and are not employees of Uber / Lyft (well at least not historically in most places).

Standard "self-employed" IRS forms (Schedule C as I recall) allow one to account for business use of a car.

Here is what H&R block says about it: https://www.hrblock.com/tax-ce...

To deduct vehicle expenses, you can use standard mileage or actual expenses. For either method, keep a log of the miles you drive for your business. Both methods allow self-employed tax deductions for tolls and parking fees.

If you use the standard mileage rate, you can only deduct the mileage at a standard rate. For 2017, the rate is $0.535.

Over the past few decades, with three different vehicles, of various ages (new through 14 years of age), I have had a couple of years where the actual expenses have come close to the standard mileage rate, but usually the standard rate is higher (and easier to track). Usually for me business use of the vehicle has been under 10% of the total use, which is much less than a ride sharing vehicle would be.

Re: Why lie about this?

[torkus]

Oh AC...you so silly. But let's work out the math here.

Even just taking the start of what you wrote: You drove for 1 hour, grossed $40, netted ~$20 and are ahead of the $17 minimum in TFA.

But also, that's the write-off which typically is higher than actual cost and DOES INCLUDE the vehicle cost/depreciation/fuel/etc. The whole point of that rate per mile is the actual, total cost to be driving the vehicle. Lets break that down a bit:

For 12k miles it's $545/month.
For 24k miles it's ~$1100
For 48K miles (typical for a full time uber/lyft driver) that's $2200
Now, $2200 is your IRS approved cost write-off. If your actual costs are lower, it's more money in your pocket. Working backwards from there:

4k miles / 25mpg * $3/gal fuel = $600. This depends on your vehicle and gas prices but uses current fuel and 2016 MPG numbers. A prius will be less.
$20k - average price for a 3 year old car or ~$400/month over 5 years - actual depreciation will be *less* than this of course
$200/month insurance - varies significantly by location, but even doubled this is easily viable.
That leaves a full $1000 a month for maintenance which is overkill so your tax deductions will net you ~30% back on whatever of this you don't spend. Conservatively, that's at least a few grand in your pocket per year.

So after working all that out, you're still making $40k per year including full depreciation of the vehicle in 5 years and all maintenance/fuel.

Of course they did.

[Gamer_2k4]

So ride-sharing companies pull out of New York, and taxi companies are back in business. It's no surprise to me why they voted for this.

Re:Of course they did.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not necessarily. It might just cause an increase in rates that customers still pay because they prefer it to taxis. It might cause a decrease in riders and therefore a decrease in drivers.

If they did cease operations, it might actually reduce congestion.

Re:Wow, never do business in NYC

[b0s0z0ku]

You seem angry. Go get laid...

Re:Strange bedfellows

[Aighearach]

Machine Shop is the place that makes a custom part to fix a commercial truck or trailer. They also have the press that is needed to replace wheel bearings. A Machinist is a person who operates the specific machines in Machine Shops.

All the mechanics with commercial customers either have a machinist on staff, or are the customer of a machine shop.

Taxi companies have their own auto mechanic shops. And independent drivers are often associated with an auto shop, and they may have the same owner.

NY Uber and Lyft drivers

[BankRobberMBA]

I have a good friend driving for both in NYC. He is driving a 4 or 5 year old car (he bought it I think 2.5 years ago). He makes about $50,000/year driving. He has a part time restaurant job, as well.

He bought the car specifically to drive for Uber (and later started Lyft). He has been paying extra on the car. It is nearly paid off now. The car has paid for itself, including all maintenance and insurance, and gas. The money left over paid part of his rent (he only rents a room, but still pays too much). The remainder of the rent and his other expenses are covered by the restaurant gig.

In another year he will have the car free and clear and will (probably*) still be making money with it. In the meantime, he has had use of the car for a couple of years. This is not negative money.

*: Don't get me started on Uber's long-term survivability.

Re:NY Uber and Lyft drivers

[magzteel]

I have a good friend driving for both in NYC. He is driving a 4 or 5 year old car (he bought it I think 2.5 years ago). He makes about $50,000/year driving.

You didn't mention how many hours he's working for that money. If its 40 hours a week * 52 weeks he's grossing $24/hr, which is close to the proposed floor.

A few comments:
The regulation is assuming a net after expenses of $17.22, which is $35K/yr pre-tax (at 40hrs/week). That's not really livable in NYC.
From https://careertrend.com/how-ma..., a typical NYC cab driver
- drives 12 hours/day. At that rate before expenses your friend would be grossing $16/hr
- drives 47K miles/year, of mostly rough city stop/start miles. At that rate the car has maybe 7 years

Re:NY Uber and Lyft drivers

[torkus]

I don't think you live in NYC...

$35k/yr definitely isn't livable in NYC, but at the same time is totally is. It takes a different approach and many people in NYC accept that (or get NYCHA housing and live for almost free).

The $17/hr minimum is considerably (+24%) higher than the NYC minimum wage of $13/hr set about a year ago.Guaranteeing that wage to someone working a highly flexible, self-directed job with effectively no boss is actually ... strange. Well, until you realize the taxi commission is working to destroy uber in NYC and get their control back.

and why aren't uber/lyft taxi companies

[cats-paw]

Maybe somebody will finally explain to me why:

1 uber and lyft are, absolutely, taxi companies so why don't the cities simply slap the same regs on them as what are on taxis ?

2 ok, for some reason 1 doesn't apply. then taxi companies shouldn't exist.

uber/lyft are taxi companies, either regulate them as such or just do away with the idea of taxi regulation.

why do they keep treating them separately ??

Re:and why aren't uber/lyft taxi companies

[Anonymous Coward]

Because in NYC (and maybe other parts of the US), there's a difference between a taxi (unbooked/street-ordered) and a limo (pre-booked). Taxis are colored/marked in certain ways and pick up riders when called from the sidewalk. Limos (or any pre-ordered/booked such service) are ordered via phone calls. They can't pick up people off the street if flagged down and don't wear taxi markings. (Conversely, however, taxis can be called for pickups.)

Uber and Lyft are using apps to make prearranged orders for a car service, thus counting as limos and not taxis.

Taxi companies are of course pissed. But there are legitimate concerns that these companies could easily screw over drivers due to associated costs (fuel, wear and tear on vehicles, and so on). They control the algorithm and therefore the prices of the fares.

I suppose a way around this is to let individual drivers bid on fares, reflecting their own costs. But I guess a minimum pay is acceptable as well.

(There are a few other things that blur the line between Uber and taxis. Taxis have mile meters, but limos don't. Limos usually charge by the hour with minimums. Uber is charging by the mile and used for quick rides. Taxis also are allowed to wait in certain areas or circle around blocks/locations looking for fares. Limos don't. Uber drivers have been doing this, I hear.)

Re:and why aren't uber/lyft taxi companies

[AmiMoJo]

The original theory was that taxis which pick random people up off the street are different to services that are booked over the phone, which at a minimum collect and identifying phone number and probably payment details as well. Booked services also don't clog up the streets with waiting taxis in busy areas.

Before sat nav existed taxi drivers had to have very good knowledge of the city too, especially for mazes like London. Booked services could in theory plan the route before hand with a map so the requirements were less stringent. Booked services could also give a reasonable prediction of the price, or offer a fixed price based on distance and time of day, where as taxis just use a running meter.

Apps changed things a bit by making the booking process more like hailing a passing taxi, and replacing the meter with a combination of measurement and surge pricing.