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'What Straight-A Students Get Wrong' (nytimes.com)

From a story: Year after year, I watch in dismay as students obsess over getting straight A's. Some sacrifice their health; a few have even tried to sue their school after falling short. All have joined the cult of perfectionism out of a conviction that top marks are a ticket to elite graduate schools and lucrative job offers. I was one of them. I started college with the goal of graduating with a 4.0. It would be a reflection of my brainpower and willpower, revealing that I had the right stuff to succeed. But I was wrong.

The evidence is clear: Academic excellence is not a strong predictor of career excellence. Across industries, research shows that the correlation between grades and job performance is modest in the first year after college and trivial within a handful of years. For example, at Google, once employees are two or three years out of college, their grades have no bearing on their performance.

Academic grades rarely assess qualities like creativity, leadership and teamwork skills, or social, emotional and political intelligence. Yes, straight-A students master cramming information and regurgitating it on exams. But career success is rarely about finding the right solution to a problem -- it's more about finding the right problem to solve.

13 of 372 comments (clear)

  1. Academic grades are what you can parrot! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Obviously, they have little bearing on the real world, where you need to actually achieve, rather than regurgitate words at the professor.

    1. Re:Academic grades are what you can parrot! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      From this picture, calculate the approximate length of the elephant's penis."

      Bad question. When a male elephant urinates his penis is only partially extended from the preputial sheath. So a pendulum oscillation calculation would not give you the full length.

    2. Re:Academic grades are what you can parrot! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Obviously, they have little bearing on the real world

      Indeed. In my entire life, this is the number of times an interviewer has asked about my GPA: 0.

      The were mainly interested in what I had done (demo with source code listing) and what I could do (whiteboard + marker).

      Even applying for grad school, an impressive undergrad independent research project will help more than a perfect GPA, especially if it was published.

      In grad school, your GPA means nothing. All anyone cares about is your research and publication record.

      High school is the only place where your GPA is really important.

    3. Re: Academic grades are what you can parrot! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Escuse me but fuck you I just paid $25k in property taxes for a 3br, 2 bath house. The schools nearby are mediocre at best on a good day.

      I have met my daughters teachers. Paying them even more than the 6 figures they make now would only add further insult and injury to the insult and and injury I already (and my kid) suffer in the pubLic schools. More money will not hire better teachers until the evil af teachers unions are destroyed. Those people could give less than a fuck about the kids or teaching anything.

      You have kids? You pay property taxes? Both seem unlikely from your book standard whining about raising taxes and how wasting even more money on school administration and stupid policies will result in a better education for our children.

      In short, you know not of what you speak.

    4. Re:Academic grades are what you can parrot! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Indeed. In my entire life, this is the number of times an interviewer has asked about my GPA: 0.

      Why would they ask you? That information is normally on your CV, which will be filtered by HR drones long before you get to the interview.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  2. Stupid logic by shilly · · Score: 5, Insightful

    At one point, the article says, in effect, that it's unhealthy to obsess over getting straight As -- and that it's ineffective, because people like Martin Luther King and JK Rowling didn't get straight As. If it's unhealthy to give yourself a hard time pursuing straight As, it's even more unhealthy to give yourself a hard time trying to be Martin Luther King or JK Rowling -- and it's wildly less attainable.

  3. Good ol' selection bias by melted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    >> at Google, once employees are two or three years out of college, their grades have no bearing on their performance

    Sure, if they can pass Google interviews, their grades are unlikely to have much bearing on their performance. They have a pretty serious bearing on being able to pass interviews, though, I can tell you that.

    1. Re:Good ol' selection bias by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The point is those interviews are not good indicators of potential. All those interviews seem to do is inflate the Googler's sense of importance at being a gatekeeper, when all they do has no effect on the actual quality of the people who pass the gate.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
  4. Re:Do companies even care about grades that much by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes and no. They don't really care in terms of doing the job, but especially in STEM, it's common to slap on an arbitrary GPA cutoff for graduate positions. So if you don't have 3.7, you simply cannot apply for a certain percentage (HR literally throw applications away without reading). At 3.5 there's another cutoff. At 3, another.

    None of that is really relevant to the job, it's just "more efficient" for HR. They "need" someone with a degree, because that means they can grind the handle and meet deadlines for four years. And they "need" the best, so 3.7 must be better than 3.5 ....

    It's ridiculous, but yes, it happens. After the first job, no, nobody cares. But for that first position, absolutely.

  5. Re:I got 3.98 at University over4 years in.. by StormReaver · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...theoretical physics and have had a very successful career for over 20 years.

    You are probably the type of person who loves what he does, is capable of independent research to solve problems, and whose University grades have no bearing on his ability to do his job.

    You could probably have lived life more, studied less, gotten lower grades, and still be perfectly able to do your job.

    In short, you are probably just the person the article author had in mind to prove that University grades are meaningless beyond the hiring process.

  6. Re:What the hell are they teaching students? by fermion · · Score: 4, Insightful
    It says it right there in the article summary Some people think it is more important to solve the problem you identify rather than the problem that needs to be solved to create the product.

    Now, to be clear sometimes when creating a product, like the iPhone, it is useful to think about the problem from a different perspective. Likewise, pulling the real problem client wants to solve out of them is an artform. But it is important to work the problem, and not jjust redefine it to suit your needs.

    For instance about 20 years ago I was working on a roll you own web server. There was some data visitation code that broke for certain cases of data that were outside the arbitrary parameters the original coders set. These people redefined the problem to one they knew how to solve instead of solving the problem that needed to be solved. I have the education and the skills to actually do the research and coding to solve the real problem,

    This in fact is why people fail tests. They are taught in school that they can work an easier problem that they know and they never are going to have to go through the effort to create a solution to a novel problem,. We ate training people to work in factories or scripted technical support.

    The problem with the straight A student, in fact, is not that they are necessarily better or worse prepared to push papers or sell widgets to widget buyers. The problem is that they, unless they are very organized, focused, and precocious, likely earned their A by taking the easiest classes, by crying to administrators about how mean the teacher was anytime they got a b, and by having their parents threaten to sue. This means that why they do get a challenge in the work place, they are going to be unable to deal with it, or feel like the challenge is unfair.

    I am thinking about the devil wears prada where the protagonist has a job, and is unable to do it without constantly whining.

    A student with a low to mid b average is probably going to be a better employee.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  7. Re:What the hell are they teaching students? by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The funny thing about rote, even for maths, is that kids with the propensity to be creative will think of creative ways to make the rote learning interesting. They'll find their own patterns and tricks. You can't test for that, and sometimes will act as a punishment for getting something wrong.

    It's easy to say critical thinking should be taught. But how? Just like everything else, it ends up being taught to some test. Of course, those kids who do think critically will see through the absolutely non-critically thought-out education system.

    Kids learn by example, and I fear the uncritical, uncreative, adults around them are teaching them to be the same by example.

    --
    Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
  8. Re:I don't believe it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Be like scotty. Do just enough to be useful, and then when important stuff needs doing quickly, you put all your effort in and are seen as a miracle worker.

    In most offices I've ever been in, the quicker you work, the more work you're given, which doesn't usually translate into either compensation nor accolades.

    Work is trading time for money.

    As companies are trying to get the most work for the least money, the only winning move is to get the most money for the least work.