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It's Getting Hard To Know What is Automated and What Isn't (axios.com)

It's increasingly becoming a challenge to know when -- and if -- AI is at play in things we come across in our daily lives. From a report: Applicants usually don't know when a startup has used artificial intelligence to triage their resume. When Big Tech deploys AI to tweak a social feed and maximize scrolling time, users often can't tell, either. The same goes when the government relies on AI to dole out benefits -- citizens have little say in the matter. What's happening: As companies and the government take up AI at a delirious pace, it's increasingly difficult to know what they're automating -- or hold them accountable when they make mistakes. If something goes wrong, those harmed have had no chance to vet their own fate. Why it matters: AI tasked with critical choices can be deployed rapidly, with little supervision -- and it can fall dangerously short. The big picture: Researchers and companies are subject to no fixed rules or even specific professional guidelines regarding AI. Hence, companies have tripped up but suffered little more than a short-lived PR fuss.

35 of 62 comments (clear)

  1. So, Slashdot is automated you are saying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    AI, without the I.

  2. Why do you say it's getting hard to know by fat+man's+underwear · · Score: 1

    What is Automated and What Isn't ?

    1. Re:Why do you say it's getting hard to know by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      Is it important to you that you want to automate?

    2. Re:Why do you say it's getting hard to know by fat+man's+underwear · · Score: 1

      We were talking about you, not me.

    3. Re:Why do you say it's getting hard to know by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      Oh... not you?

  3. Re: AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's not any different than humans...

    When I send a resume and some HR person decides to drop it, how isn't any different for me if an AI did it instead?

    Either way I don't have anyone to complain to really. The corporation takes liability for it's actions whether human or automated. If I'm going to sue it's the registered agent on record which must be a human. And if they want to send an AI to represent them in court thats ok.

    I'll start getting worried when the government starts replacing judges with AI, but I won't mind if they use AI assistance.

    I think I don't mind if the career lying and stealing politicians get replaced with AI as long as humans get to vote on the values we use to we train them.

  4. humans by religionofpeas · · Score: 2

    So when you're being disadvantaged by another human in a similar situation, is there a way to hold them accountable ?

    1. Re:humans by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      It's at least possible. And some humans have higher level thinking skills, and they can step back and look at a system and see if it seems to be working the way it should, and producing the results that are desired. AI really doesn't have that at this time, and probably won't for a long time.

      A second, far bigger problem is that we've always had humans who have held the process above all else. No exceptions to the process. And when the process is obviously flawed, they refuse to address this. If you can get in touch with a manager over them, that person might sometimes be able to circumvent or adjust the process to fix the issue.

      With AI, who is managing it? Can they adjust it, if it's not working properly? The answers are likely 1) nobody, and 2) no. Retraining your machine learning/AI is a big deal. If you've just done a half-assed deployment, do you have the time and the data to retrain it? If it works 75% of the time but costs a lot less than a human who did it right 99.9% of the time, are you switching back to the human?

      And if someone for whom it doesn't work well for asks, "Why?", what do you tell them? The answer almost assuredly is, "I don't know." Previously it was, "Brenda has her system but sometimes she doesn't quite get it right. I'll take care of it."

      We're going to get into absolutely absurd situations in the very near future that will be front and center in comedy for decades or more to come.

      * My car won't go down the street I need to go down, and I don't know why. But if I select a destination past it, then re-select my original destination, it turns around and goes down that street just fine.
      * "I'm sorry sir, but we can't sell that to you." "But I have sufficient credit! Hell, I can pay in cash!" "I don't know why sir. But the computer won't let me sell that to you."
      * AI phone trees that don't get you to where you need to go, no matter what. Hitting 0 gets you back to the AI.
      * AI deciding to order shit for you that you don't need or want. Amazon is already pushing subscription ordering. It's just a matter of time before this becomes "smart subscription ordering", where it sends you dog food every month, but then if you buy another dog bed it decides you have another dog and doubles the order. Or it decides that you need the "proper" amount of everything dog, and sends occasional collars, meds, etc. You buy a baby stroller to give to your sister for a shower gift, it's delivered to your address and not marked gift, so it subscribes you to diapers. (Target already got caught showing baby ads to a teen before she told her family she was pregnant!)
      * Google is already doing "smart" email filtering. That's going to get picked up by everyone for everything soon. AI is going to tell you what's important, and what you need to look at. That email from your estranged uncle leaving you his fortune? Binned because your interaction rating with him is 0%. That 97th crazy text message from your ex? Top of the pile, because you have a 99% interaction rating with them. And you'll have no way to understand WTF is happening, why, or do anything about it.

      You can at least punch a person and feel some satisfaction. Breaking your expensive electronics doesn't really bring the same relief, because the new ones won't have learned anything different.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
  5. Maturity by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    I suspect there will be 2 phases of AI growth. The first phase will be giving "bots" the ability do relatively complex but practical tasks, and the 2nd phase will be creating systems that partition and track each intelligence step so that they use divide-and-conquer of both AI-creating staff, and of processes (modules). This will make it easier to understand how a bot acts the way it does, and to tune it.

    AI will grow regimented and standardized, along the lines of MVC and similar development partition techniques. There may be pattern-detection sub-engines, rule-based sub-engines, logic-based sub-engines, physics-modelling-based sub-engines, etc.

    The second regimented kind may be behind the first type, being say 5 to 10 years behind in ability, but both will improve over time.

    1. Re:Maturity by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      And then regulated, and then finally canonized.

  6. Re:oh my goodness by alvinrod · · Score: 1

    Obviously. It would seem apparent that it was some human that deployed the bad AI to begin with, and if that's not the case they've become more clever than we may have originally thought.

  7. Age discrimination by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I know folks over 40 who hide their age because they won't get interviews if the company realizes they're over 40.

    AI and big data have the potential to break that. There's still markers left over from the places you worked, how long, the types of apps you've worked on ,etc.

    You used to see this with black neighborhoods unable to get mortgages because of their zip code. When you put numbers into a database without regard to what comes out you can end up with crap like this.

    --
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    1. Re:Age discrimination by colonslash · · Score: 1

      > AI and big data have the potential to break that. There's still markers left over from the places you worked, how long, the types of apps you've worked on ,etc.
      Couldn't anyone competent enough to do an interview figure that out, too? I'd think actual people going through resumes would be more prejudiced than an AI, and programming in a filter for age would be blatantly against the law.

      Amazon actually had a similar problem. In their case, the "women's" keyword counted against candidates. I don't see this as an insurmountable issue; as AI improves, it should actually be able to filter for the better candidates, regardless of gender, age, race, etc., and it won't need to take shortcuts, like assuming everyone in a zip code isn't a good fit.

    2. Re:Age discrimination by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      You used to see this with black neighborhoods unable to get mortgages because of their zip code. When you put numbers into a database without regard to what comes out you can end up with crap like this.

      Actually that's because the law was set up that way - if you were white, congratulations you could get a mortgage, but if you were black, too bad, loan denied.

      It was a technique known as "redlining" - be white and live in a nice white suburb, great!

      The unfortunate thing is its effects are still felt today.

      If you like comedy videos, Adam Ruins Everything has a nice doc about it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      More discussion - https://legallysociable.com/20...

    3. Re:Age discrimination by Kjella · · Score: 1

      You used to see this with black neighborhoods unable to get mortgages because of their zip code. When you put numbers into a database without regard to what comes out you can end up with crap like this.

      Yeah, because problems like driving while black never existed before we had AI robocops. Oh, wait... Truth is, sharing some kind of common characteristic with an ill-perceived group is always going to be problematic because they don't know you personally. And there'll never be time to know everyone personally, like if I walk home drunk late at night and happen to walk the same way as a woman she's a lot more scared I'll jump and rape her than that she'd jump and rape me. Simply because I have a penis and she's got a vagina - sorry LBGTq'ers you're statistically insignificant. And the better the statistics, the worse you're guilty by association - or not even that, because association means you had a choice. Like 51% vs 49%, big whoop... 95% to 5%, well it sucks to be the 5%. Unless you're the 5% nobody suspects because you don't fit the profile/stereotype at all.

      Yes, this could become a self-enforcing shit show where people who happen to have a poor background or made one mistake get snubbed at every occasion into a downward spiral to oblivion, but who's going to rationally choose to break you out? I mean we have many success stories of people who get out of their substance problems or criminal life or shitty anti-social/violent behavior and whatnot... and then there's all the people who don't, somebody went out on a limb for them and they managed to screw them over. Like that friend you let sleep on the couch turned squatter or recommended for a job and got fired with flying colors, no good deed goes unpunished. Computers play the odds and so to most managers too, the difference is with humans you had some chance to connect and prove you're different.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    4. Re:Age discrimination by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Amazon actually had a similar problem [reuters.com]. In their case, the "women's" keyword counted against candidates. I don't see this as an insurmountable issue; as AI improves, it should actually be able to filter for the better candidates, regardless of gender, age, race, etc., and it won't need to take shortcuts, like assuming everyone in a zip code isn't a good fit.

      That would be a fundamentally different form of AI from what's popular these days, which is algorithms generated through training on human-generated datasets - this is where they pick up human biases.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    5. Re:Age discrimination by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      In their case, the "women's" keyword counted against candidates.

      That's simple to fix -- just put in a feminist AI. I've got a good feeling about this.

  8. Just Ask Foreclosure Victims by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Just ask the thousands of foreclosure victims from 2009/2010 who were foreclosed and evicted, despite not even being behind on their mortgages.

    Not only were the foreclosure processes at the banks automated, but so were the eviction and auction proceedings with the state courts. There were never any human eyes checking things to make sure a foreclosure was legit.

    I spent $10K on attorney fees stopping the foreclosure on my house in 2010, which was PAID FOR FREE AND CLEAR, for 4 MONTHS. The bank's automated system detected I had not made a payment in 4 months and initiated foreclosure proceedings to recover ZERO dollars on a PAID OFF loan. The court was all too happy to go along with it.

    1. Re:Just Ask Foreclosure Victims by vinn01 · · Score: 1

      The court was right. You have a duty to monitor or perform your property's recordings. When my house was paid off I took the "paid in full" documentation to the Recorder of Deeds myself and registered a Release Deed. Done. No more lien.

  9. Re:Automated basic function != AI, wtf is this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This. Retards need to stop fucking saying AI.

  10. When "desired" become hard requirements. by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

    What's more probable, that the fools that programmed these HR bots made them to regard skill and experience as being highly valuable or that they are simply going to discard everyone that doesn't meet the "desired" qualifications? HR was shitty to start with but this is absolute trash.

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
  11. Re:More bullshit to blame by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 1

    Why is it the rich and powerful can come up with more crap to minimize and degrade the value of the middle class and poor? And also do it with impunity! Who the hell makes up this garbage?

    We have at least 4000 years of history as a blueprint on how they can get away with it. Human's natural instinct is to take advange of anyone that they can take advantage of. Humans suck.

    --
    "That's the way to do it" - Punch
  12. Okay, so... Regulate? by Scroatzilla · · Score: 1

    >> Researchers and companies are subject to no fixed rules or even specific professional guidelines regarding AI. Hence, companies have tripped up but suffered little more than a short-lived PR fuss.

    This looks like it's teeing up to make the case for government regulation, which is really stupid. AI is a leading edge technology, so all the experts who would even understand the parameters involved in implementing "fixed rules" regarding AI are the ones inventing the thing to begin with. All the government would do if charged with making "fixed rules" is stifle innovation to ensure the government's flavor of this technology is stronger than that available to the general public.

    1. Re:Okay, so... Regulate? by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      AI will never be "available to the general public." The general public will be subjected to proprietary AI forced upon them by banks, retailers, social media sites, the police, etc. - These systems are not going to be open or transparent in any way, and you will not be able to opt out. To think otherwise demonstrates a lack of understanding of the technology, and of the people implementing it.

      Of course, you weren't thinking about that - you needed to find some way to talk about how "government regulations" are "really stupid" and "stifle innovation". (Is that a bird I hear? Sounds like a parrot...) Let me break something to you: Some innovations need to be stifled. Are you aware of the things that happened when society discovered radioactivity? (serious question.) Radioactive materials made their way into all sorts of consumer products. Children were blasted with ungodly amounts of X-rays to see their bones as they tried on shoes at the store. And so we slowly developed regulations on what you could use, when, where, why, and how much. These details are what is completely absent from our AI discussion on Slashdot. These are the details that would comprise any regulation. Without them, you can't even begin a debate on what effect they will have. You can only sling blind, axiomatic, inflexible ideology.

      I predict AI will play out much like radiation did. We will see AI shoved into every place it will fit, sometimes with disastrous outcomes. The trickier part is the bad outcomes here are going to be a lot more varied. The way we regulate now tends to look at specific processes within specific industries- and AI has the potential to upend almost any process in any industry. So you can't really "regulate AI" as such. You regulate areas in which AI gets applied. The AI Pandora uses for music recommendations probably doesn't need to be regulated. We probably do need to regulate the AI used for determining who gets a mortgage, or the AI that sets bail for people who are arrested. What form the regulations take, I can't say. Maybe something like limiting what input data the AI can use, although that alone will be inadequate. AI experts would need to be heavily involved in drafting any specific regulations. Maybe the best thing for certain applications is to avoid the use of AI altogether, or to mandate any AI decision can be contested for human review.

      I'm not sure that we are at a point in the development of this tech where we can draft meaningful regulations until we see how the problems actually manifest. My concern is the government will act too slowly, and people will feel a lot of pain in the interim period, while corporate apologists drag it on for as many years as they can. That is what history shows us - society's rules always lag behind new developments.

  13. Did it work? by Luthair · · Score: 1

    If it worked, its not automated. If it didn't work, maybe its automated. Automating is still only works well on fixed function tasks and humans are fallible.

  14. I think we're looking at the wrong problem by the_skywise · · Score: 1

    It's not "AI" that needs to be regulated or blamed for these issues.
    "AI" is becoming the whipping point, the man, the fall guy for shady actions enacted by corps and employees who are (last I checked) still accountable to regulations and laws enforcing fairness and transparency.
    If they're hiding behind AI for bizarre outcomes that are obviously against regulations then that's still - ILLEGAL. Don't blame the AI - take the corp to court for implementing the AI in that way in the same way Wells Fargo was held accountable for their human agents making fake accounts.
    For social media and "fake news" this gets a little trickier but the solution is still the same - hold the companies like Facebook and Google accountable for what they post - be it ads or promotional stories that they're paid for.

  15. ..and now we see the real 'danger' of AI: by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    The 'real danger' is actually the marketing departments that shill this garbage, making people believe it's 'magic' and can actually THINK, i.e. orders of magnitude better than it actually is. Meanwhile nobody not even the programmers really understand why it's spitting out the 'results' it does and therefore how can you trust it at all? I'll be glad when this fad comes to an end (again).

    1. Re:..and now we see the real 'danger' of AI: by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      You know, I wrote less than 100 words in that comment, and you STILL MANANGED TO NOT COMPREHEND THE CONTENT, and in fact got it completely ASS BACKWARDS.

      Fuck off.

    2. Re:..and now we see the real 'danger' of AI: by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. This is dumb automation and statistics, nothing else.

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    3. Re:..and now we see the real 'danger' of AI: by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Some people find it hard to read and think. Probably these are the ones that think AI is real, because they at the very low end of human capability...

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  16. If you're good enough you can make up for age by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    in an interview, but only if you get the interview in the first place. As for them catching it before the interview, if you're just glancing at a resume it's easy enough to miss.

    The thing about AI and data automation is that it makes it practical to catch things that time pressed humans miss. These little efficiency boosts add up with mega corporations resulting in tens of millions of dollars in savings. On the downside those savings usually come at the cost of longer hours and harder work for anyone who works for a living.

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  17. Re: AI by Bengie · · Score: 1

    AIs are more pathological than humans. Humans have an inherent amount of chaos in decision making that allows for people to have a more difficult time, but not out right blackballed. The biggest issue with AIs is they're only as good as the data their fed, and the more you use AIs, the more biased the data becomes. AIs tend to be self reinforcing, and most humans fall victim to believing the AIs are correct because the create a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.

    A simple example might be that a person gets a credit risk score based on an AI. Then because of that potentially poor score, they have to pay higher interest. Maybe this person was low risk, but incorrect labeled as high risk. But now because they're labeled as high risk, they become higher risk because they have more difficulty with acquiring and managing their credit due to limitations. Then other AIs see this and they get trained to be like "this person is high risk and treating them as high risk makes them higher risk, so treat them as even higher risk, which makes them higher risk." Rinse and repeat until it snow-balls to the point that the person can no longer get credit. Yay AIs.

  18. Re: AI by Visarga · · Score: 1

    This negative loop might be suboptimal for lending institutions unless they implement a mechanism for forgiveness. It's what humans do - respond in kind, to good with good and bad with bad, but from time to time, forgive, to give a second chance to a better equilibrium.

  19. Re:oh my goodness by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

    The fundamental problem with AI in a HR context is that there are well-established laws protecting employees from certain forms of discrimination. No publicly-traded corporation's management would DARE to officially suggest, let alone demand, that its HR staff systematically discriminate against applicants based upon their sex, religion, national origin, etc. in ways that violate against laws, because it would be an open invitation to fines and lawsuits when the policy was inevitably disclosed by a disgruntled former employee.

    The problem is, AI-logic (especially deep learning and pattern recognition) tends to be EXTREMELY opaque and impossible for humans to make sense of. That's WHY someone used deep learning in the first place... it's great at spotting patterns that look like random noise to humans. The catch is, if you can't explain the logic, you ALSO can't guarantee that it's not indirectly basing its logic on criteria that are ILLEGAL to consider in the first place.

  20. Oh, it is actually very easy by gweihir · · Score: 1

    There is no AI at this time (at least none that deserved the name), so "never" is the correct answer. Now, if you are talking about dumb, non-intelligent automation and statistical classification, that is something else...

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.