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DeepMind AI AlphaStar Wins 10-1 Against 'StarCarft II' Pros (newscientist.com)

In a series of matches streamed on YouTube and Twitch, DeepMind AI AlphaStar defeated two top-ranked professionals 10-1 at real-time strategy game StarCraft II. "This is of course an exciting moment for us," said David Silver at DeepMind in a live stream watched by more than 55,000 people. "For the first time we saw an AI that was able to defeat a professional player." New Scientist reports: DeepMind created five versions of their AI, called AlphaStar, and trained them on footage of human games. The different AIs then played against each other in a league, with the leading AI accumulating the equivalent of 200 years of game experience. With this, AlphaStar beat professional players Dario Wunsch and Grzegorz Komincz -- ranked 44th and 13th in the world respectively. AlphaStar's success came with some caveats: the AI played only on a single map, and using a single kind of player (there are three in the game). The professionals also had to contend with playing different versions of AlphaStar from match to match. While the AlphaStar was playing on a single graphics processing unit, a computer chip found in many gaming computers, it was trained on 16 tensor processing units hosted in the Google cloud -- processing power beyond the realms of many.

20 of 103 comments (clear)

  1. Still Cheating by Luthair · · Score: 2, Informative

    Much like the dota bot from last year AlphaStar is effectively cheating as it is aware of the entire map at once, not restricted to the viewport as humans are. These are only really a novelty until they start operating on imperfect knowledge and imperfect inputs as humans are (even if it was arbitrarily limited on reaction speed).

    1. Re:Still Cheating by psycho12345 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, the AI is restricted to the viewport, it is using an interface into the game, so no it doesn't have maphack, like a normal scripted AI would.

    2. Re:Still Cheating by djinn6 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's already operating with imperfect knowledge. From Vox:

      During the 10 matches, the AI had one big advantage that a human player doesn’t have: It was able to see all of the parts of the map where it had visibility, while a human player has to manipulate the camera.

      Emphasis mine. Yes, it's an advantage, but it's not cheating. Humans can use the minimap to see what's going on as well.

      The problem with these matches and Starcraft in general, is that the it's able to win just with good micro. So getting really good at Starcraft doesn't get us closer to actual AI.

    3. Re:Still Cheating by wlorenz65 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Wrong for the live game against MaNa. Quote: "Following the broadcast of the recorded matches, DeepMind introduced a new version of AlphaStar that MaNa took on in a live match. The agent that played the live game didn't have the benefit of the overhead camera and instead had to make decisions on where to place its focus in the same way a human would."

      But you are right for the recorded games from December 2018.

    4. Re:Still Cheating by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How can it not get closer? AI didn't used to be able to beat professional StarCraft players. Now they can. That is, by definition, moving closer, because it's not moving backwards, and clearly an improvement from not moving at all.

      This is just more goalpost shifting, finding nonsense reasons to argue why it "doesn't count". Consider the alternative that maybe the things humans do aren't as as clever as we tell ourselves. If it's just "good micro", why can't humans use "good micro" to beat the AI, if we're so great?

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    5. Re:Still Cheating by djinn6 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How can it not get closer? AI didn't used to be able to beat professional StarCraft players. Now they can. That is, by definition, moving closer, because it's not moving backwards, and clearly an improvement from not moving at all.

      It is not moving at all. There's no viable route from this to general purpose AI. By playing countless games against itself on the same map, it is still performing a search on a decision tree, weighing the (now more fuzzy) nodes. It did not acquire any actual understanding of Starcraft mechanics. It does not logically reason about anything that it hasn't seen before. If you give it Warcraft instead, it'll take another several months of work from a team of very intelligent humans to make it good at it. In fact, I'll bet a big enough balance patch will cause it to have to throw out everything it's learned.

      This is just more goalpost shifting, finding nonsense reasons to argue why it "doesn't count". Consider the alternative that maybe the things humans do aren't as as clever as we tell ourselves.

      The goal post has always been to replace human intelligence. I don't see any AI building Starcraft-playing AI's, or discussing how long it will be before they are replaced by even better AIs.

      If it's just "good micro", why can't humans use "good micro" to beat the AI, if we're so great?

      Because humans have muscles that take time to move?

    6. Re:Still Cheating by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's no viable route from this to general purpose AI

      How do you know? Is there a roadmap that says all AI must progress in this way? If there were such a roadmap, why do we still need research then? Do you even understand why we research things we don't have adequate knowledge/experience?

      It did not acquire any actual understanding of Starcraft mechanics

      If it beat professional human players, then yes it did acquire an actual understanding of Starcraft mechanics. In fact, a better understanding than humans.

      If you give it Warcraft instead, it'll take another several months of work from a team of very intelligent humans to make it good at it. In fact, I'll bet a big enough balance patch will cause it to have to throw out everything it's learned.

      So what? The fact it wasn't even able to do something like Starcraft before. Do you not understand that technological progress isn't linear? How long ago were people saying AI can't play Go. And how long after beating humans at Go that people like you were saying AI can't beat humans at things that require imperfect knowledge? Do you really think DeepMind started from scratch after conquering Go, or maybe they used their experience

      The goal post has always been to replace human intelligence. I don't see any AI building Starcraft-playing AI's, or discussing how long it will be before they are replaced by even better AIs.

      Uh no. Nice attempt at rewriting history, but there have been clear intermediate goalposts that people like you keep walking back on. Chess. Go. Poker. Starcraft. The list keeps building.

      So what if you don't see AI building Starcraft-playing AIs? Your argument becomes more and more ridiculous. You claim there was absolutely no progress being made. And here, you reveal that your criteria of "progress" is replacing human intelligence. You realize you actually just shifted goalposts mid discussion, right? Now you're claiming any progress is no progress unless it replaces humans in one go.

      Because humans have muscles that take time to move?

      So? AlphaStar has its own limitations too.

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      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    7. Re:Still Cheating by timeOday · · Score: 2

      "The AI agent was hobbled in some ways. For example, it was restricted from performing more clicks per minute than a human" https://www.theverge.com/2019/...

    8. Re:Still Cheating by sheramil · · Score: 2

      If it's just "good micro", why can't humans use "good micro" to beat the AI, if we're so great?

      The AI in Bullfrog's "Dungeon Keeper" used to drop a bunch of enemies in your territory and then immediately pick them up again, giving you no time to attack them. You had to keep on them in case it did let them go, but it was incredibly annoying, and only narrowly within the rules. The human player couldn't grab, say, thirty monsters at once, drop them and grab them again.

    9. Re:Still Cheating by Njovich · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The goal post has always been to replace human intelligence

      The goalpost in AI research has always been chess. After that was solved some made random other goals, but there is certainly no concensus there.

      Not sure what you mean by replacing human intelligence, it sounds like you are not happy until all humans are dead. Hopefully you are not an AI saying that. In the context of starcraft 2, this system has replaced human AI. If you want an AI system that can do everything in all fields that humans can do, well, it's not going to happen in our lifetimes, possibly never, and it's certainly not the definition of AI that AI researchers use.

    10. Re:Still Cheating by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 2

      And if anyone here bothered reading the article, you'd know this is not simply just dropping a bunch of enemies into your territory.

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    11. Re:Still Cheating by djinn6 · · Score: 3, Informative

      It did not acquire any actual understanding of Starcraft mechanics

      If it beat professional human players, then yes it did acquire an actual understanding of Starcraft mechanics. In fact, a better understanding than humans.

      That you can train a dog to bark twice when shown 1+1, and three times when shown 2+1 does not mean the dog can do arithmetic.

    12. Re:Still Cheating by religionofpeas · · Score: 2

      If you train a dog to beat humans in Starcraft, it means the dog understands Starcraft.

  2. Re:Only now? by Chicken_Kickers · · Score: 2

    Still not a fair match unless Deepmind is connected to a robot arm moving and clicking a mouse.

  3. Bots Don't Have to Suck Anymore by mentil · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Playing a multiplayer game with bots used to be seen as an inferior experience to playing with real humans. Now imagine that instead of something like AlphaStar's utility function being set to trying to win, it's set to trying to make the human opponents have the most fun. Of course it'd need some understanding of the mindset of the player; they might not want to always win, or always have close matches, or possibly they're a sore loser. However, this could be inferred somewhat by player behavior (even outside of the match proper, e.g. in menus).

    Put that in a game and ship it, and that could be a killer feature. People might prefer to play with a bot that'll guarantee a fun time, over a human that might rage quit or be an unfair match that leads to a one-sided game.
    #MakeGamesSinglePlayerAgain

    --
    Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    1. Re:Bots Don't Have to Suck Anymore by Kjella · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This is probably much harder than you think, I sometimes play chess against the computer and even though it can match rating with human players the play is quite different. Like instead of making "reasonable" mistakes and miscalculations it's making random unmotivated moves that score poorly. Likewise, it rarely has any idea what a would be a good trap for humans, instead it's just surprisingly shallow at times as if it's maxed out the ply depth for that rating. And that's in a game that has so incredibly little nuance like chess, I can't even imagine the complexity of trying to act like a plausible rookie in Starcraft II.

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    2. Re:Bots Don't Have to Suck Anymore by mentil · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For a turn-based game, particularly when you can see what the artificial stupidity is doing, you're right. In a realtime game like Starcraft 2 there's so much that could be done, that doing nothing with a particular thing at a given moment is a reasonable move. If you want to make the suspension of disbelief better, you can teach it what mistakes humans make, and allow it to repeat them when desired. AFAIK teaching a deep-learning algorithm how to fail like a human has received little research.

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      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
  4. Starcarft? by backslashdot · · Score: 2

    Nobody notice the typo in the title? Wtf is Starcarft?

  5. Re:Great news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Are you saying it doesn't?

    In competitive StarCraft, you take into consider build orders where you need to have done a specific set of steps in a specific amount of time. If you fail to do it, it puts you behind the opponent and will cause you to lose the game.

    It's so meticulous that seasoned casters can actually tell a build based on how many workers a player has in a minute.

    Just look at the Liquipedia entry for Protoss build orders and you'll see what I mean. And that's just one race out of three.

  6. StarCarft? by The123king · · Score: 2

    Is that the latest racing game from Blizzard?

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