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Call for Retraction of 400 Scientific Papers On Organ Transplantation Amid Fears That Organs Came From Chinese Prisoners (theguardian.com)

A world-first study has called for the mass retraction of more than 400 scientific papers on organ transplantation, amid fears the organs were obtained unethically from Chinese prisoners. The Guardian reports: The Australian-led study exposes a mass failure of English language medical journals to comply with international ethical standards in place to ensure organ donors provide consent for transplantation. The study was published on Wednesday in the medical journal BMJ Open. Its author, the professor of clinical ethics Wendy Rogers, said journals, researchers and clinicians who used the research were complicit in "barbaric" methods of organ procurement.

"There's no real pressure from research leaders on China to be more transparent," Rogers, from Macquarie University in Sydney, said. "Everyone seems to say, 'It's not our job.' The world's silence on this barbaric issue must stop." A report published in 2016 found a large discrepancy between official transplant figures from the Chinese government and the number of transplants reported by hospitals. While the government says 10,000 transplants occur each year, hospital data shows between 60,000 to 100,000 organs are transplanted each year. The report provides evidence that this gap is being made up by executed prisoners of conscience.

28 of 141 comments (clear)

  1. What about the illegal autopsies in England... by ClarkMills · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...was many centuries ago however... The science is still valid though which is what matters...

    1. Re:What about the illegal autopsies in England... by HornWumpus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Better analogy would be Nazi cold exposure science.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    2. Re:What about the illegal autopsies in England... by r2kordmaa · · Score: 2

      No, you'll still go to prison. But science is not about what is legal or ethical, science is about what is true and what is false. Laws of nature don't give a shit about laws of man.

    3. Re:What about the illegal autopsies in England... by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

      Better analogy would be Nazi cold exposure science.

      I think you mean Japanese cold exposure science. Nazis also did their own, but most of the people experimented on were Chinese prisoners of war.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    4. Re:What about the illegal autopsies in England... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Better analogy would be Nazi cold exposure science.

      Indeed. Much of what we know about reviving cold water drowning victims comes from research conducted by Nazis on prisoners.

      Should we insist that these victims die instead, because the research was unethical? There are activists calling for exactly that. So the death of innocent people would be honored by ... deaths of additional innocent people.

      The Dacau Hypothermia Experiments

      Why is the organ transplant research any different?

      What is the next step? Should we also throwout research from scientists that were unethical in the personal lives?

    5. Re:What about the illegal autopsies in England... by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      Data sets found by the UK and US from Japan and Germany methods got accepted by the West after 1945.
      The people who did the work got protected and looked after in the USA and UK after 1945.

      What to do with the research for Germany and Japan?
      The people who worked with Germans in 1946?
      The people in the USA who got promoted in the 1950's-80's who worked with directly with Germans in the USA using German results and data?
      The people now who studied the same German science in the USA and who are working for people who worked with people selected for gov/mil work by Germans decades ago?
      The books, building names, papers, book chapters, pictures in ?
      The photogenic and charismatic interviews by German experts safe in the USA in the 1950's about space, altitude, cold, oxygen?
      So many Germans, so much advanced US science.
      That need for data from 1945 Japan and the deal done to secure all the results from Japan.

      Remove the book chapters? Change the names of US gov buildings, sites and awards?
      Remove all the "1940's" German related space and aviation results from the web?
      When can US science be seen as a good US product again?
      Late 1990 and its all not evil again as the US did its own science and was not under German influence?

      The data from Japan? How many got advancement and promotions using that data in the US gov/mil?
      Publications that resulted?

      Academic advancement under direct German supervision in the USA between say 1950-1980?
      Who got what skills learning from and with that generation of Germans?
      Get to keep accomplishments when working directly with such Germans?
      How many hops from German science and results from Japan is US science going to be good?
      A decade and a generation? Not using results and data from the 1950's to 1970's under a list of names?

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    6. Re:What about the illegal autopsies in England... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The Nazi government no longer exists. Discarding their research saves nobody. The Chinese government still exists. Discarding their research may prevent them from doing more like these.

    7. Re:What about the illegal autopsies in England... by alvinrod · · Score: 2

      The reasoning behind retracting the publications is to discourage further unethical practice in the future. That's it right there.

      Here's an interesting question for you though. Should possession of child pornography be illegal? Arresting someone for having an illegal digital image that they had no role in the production of would be similarly useless or is it different here? The reasoning is the same. Arresting someone for possessing child pornography doesn't remove the abuse or suffering that the victim suffered, but it does help to prevent further production.

    8. Re:What about the illegal autopsies in England... by sixsixtysix · · Score: 3

      Why not create a race of sub-humans with no frontal cortex to harvest organs? Seems like a logical, ethical, win-win scenario.

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      ...
    9. Re:What about the illegal autopsies in England... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Indeed. Much of what we know about reviving cold water drowning victims comes from research conducted by Nazis on prisoners.

      Did you even glance at the paper you linked? It says the research is total rubbish due to poor design, shoddy and incomplete data collection, lack of cardiovascular knowledge, outright falsification and fabrication to please Himmler, and totally unsupported conclusions. We most definitely learning nothing from that particular set of tortures masquerading as experiments.

    10. Re:What about the illegal autopsies in England... by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 4, Informative

      It seems that you did not understand or perhaps did not read the article you cited on "The Dacau Hypothermia Experiments". The concluding paragraph emphatically states that the "research" was useless:

      If the shortcomings of the Dachau hypothermia study had been fully appreciated, the ethical dialogue probably would never have begun. Continuing it runs the risk of implying that these grotesque Nazi medical exercises yielded results worthy of consideration and possibly of benefit to humanity. The present analysis clearly shows that nothing could be further from the truth.

    11. Re:What about the illegal autopsies in England... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      The Chinese government still exists. Discarding their research may prevent them from doing more like these.

      China isn't going to eradicate capital punishment because "The West" refuses to read their research papers.

      Deleting these papers from the archives is going to save exactly zero lives.

    12. Re:What about the illegal autopsies in England... by columbus · · Score: 3, Informative

      Agreed. More quotes to refute the value of that nazi "research"

      This review of the Dachau hypothermia experiments reveals the critical shortcomings in scientific content and credibility. The project was conducted without an orderly experimental protocol, with inadequate methods and erratic execution. The report is riddled with inconsistencies. There is also evidence of data falsification and suggestions of fabrication. Many conclusions are not supported by the facts presented. The flawed science is compounded by evidence that the director of the project showed a consistent pattern of dishonesty and deception in his professional as well as his personal life, thereby stripping the study of the last vestige of credibility. On analysis, the Dachau hypothermia study has all of the ingredients of a scientific fraud, and rejection of the data on purely scientific grounds is inevitable. They cannot advance science or save human lives.

      To the above I will add, that the "study" lacks one of the basic requirements of the scientific method: reproducibility.

      --
      friends don't let friends teleport drunk
  2. Data is data. Make it mean something. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A while ago, a bunch of Nazi scientists did some very, very unethical research. It was the kind of thing that would turn most people's stomachs. But rather than throw it away, we kept it, and for two reasons.
    First, it was new data. They studied things that nobody else was studying (with reason) and medical science learned a lot from this.
    Secondly, throwing it away would mean that those who died during this died for nothing. At least this way their sacrifice led to something meaningful.
    Provided that these studies are accurate, they shouldn't be rejected, purely because we don't like the source. Sure, stop more abuses and ensure that there aren't any more studies in this vein, but the data exists, don't just throw it away. Keeping it means that we know more and there's less call to repeat these studies!

    1. Re:Data is data. Make it mean something. by ezdiy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The studies were observational of outcomes of transplantations already done, it's not like the study authors incentivized the chinese corrupt hospital system to procure more illegal transplants. Equating them to nazis, who actually butchered people with science as motivator (or pretext) seems more like an alarmist ruse rather than anything to do with ethics.

      This boycott won't change anything about unethical transplantations being done because the study is not an incentive for being unethical, they merely piggyback on shitty things which are happening.

      More so it is hilarious that "professor of ethics" should be keenly aware of arrows of causality in ethics. Exploiting something for can't otherwise change isn't unethical, on the contrary, it's making the best out of a shitty situation.

    2. Re:Data is data. Make it mean something. by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Provided that these studies are accurate, they shouldn't be rejected, purely because we don't like the source

      The fact is that accepting these studies encourages them to murder more people for their organs, which is something we know they are doing.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Data is data. Make it mean something. by Snotnose · · Score: 2

      The fact is that accepting these studies encourages them to murder more people for their organs, which is something we know they are doing [wikipedia.org].

      The fact is, they're going to do it anyway. The Chinese place a much lower value on human life than we do. We can ignore their papers, but all that does is let scientists around the world without our ethics to learn stuff much faster than we will.

      Larry Niven had the concept of, shit, don't remember what he called it. But 3 speeding tickets made you an organ donor. The Chinese aren't too far from that.

      Remember, it wasn't that long ago that they not only shot people in the back of the head, but they billed the family for the price of the bullet (I should check Snopes on that....)

    4. Re:Data is data. Make it mean something. by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

      And while we can't know for sure if research drives more executions (than mere transplantation does) the West sure as hell doesn't need to be glorifying such studies, and rather journals should forbid publishing and apply other pressures to make the scientists there, and their government minders, stop doing this via embarrassment.

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      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    5. Re:Data is data. Make it mean something. by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      and apply other pressures to make the scientists there, and their government minders, stop doing this via embarrassment.

      If the Chinese government has not been embarrassed by the public revelation of the justifications they are using to execute prisoners, is it really sane to think they'll be embarrassed because a few journals won't publish research that studies the results of transplant operations of organs harvested from the dead?

    6. Re:Data is data. Make it mean something. by dryeo · · Score: 2

      Organlegging was illegally harvesting organs, as in kidnapping and killing someone rather then doing it as a legal execution.
      In a world with organ transplants perfected, there was a high demand for organs, including illegally gotten organs. Note that the people democratically voted in all the execution laws in that universe.
      How many people would pay for an illegally gotten organ today if it would prolong their life? I'd bet a sizeable minority. Same with voting in the death penalty for various crimes if it meant more organs.

      In our universe, in the 19th century, supplying cadavers for dissection was a big enough business that at least one gang did similar, rather then grave robbing, killed people. The leader of that gangs skeleton is hanging up in some university after the owner was executed and used for dissection.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    7. Re:Data is data. Make it mean something. by ezdiy · · Score: 3

      > the West sure as hell doesn't need to be glorifying such studies
      Because the studies were public, a meta-study could be made approximating the real number of organ harvesting using this as a source. Remove incentives of chinese academia to publish in western academia because "you talk about bad things! therefore you are bad too and we'll have none of that!", and you live in the dark.

      It's far more likely one could actually cause harm by knee-jerk "sure as hell doesn't need to be glorifying such studies". Pointing out the issue because it's laid out in clear *is* useful, moral stances that bad things shouldn't be in the public view just because they're bad - definitely isn't.

  3. Why? by r2kordmaa · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Unless the papers were on ethics of organ translation, why would they need to be retracted, is the research any less valid just because research involved unethically obtained organs? Papers usually get retracted if the contents are bs, fabrication or plagiarism, not for an ethics problem with the research itself. Science is practical like that, what is true is true, what is false is false, ethics are a completely separate topic.

    1. Re:Why? by neoRUR · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I guess you have never done any Human Subject testing. All testing in the US has to have IRB approval (https://www.fda.gov/RegulatoryInformation/Guidances/ucm126420.htm) and the scientists doing the research need to have gone through the IRB course and sign that they can't not use data that is not been submitted and reviewed prior to experiments so that they don't do something illegal and un-ethical, like the Stanford Prison Experiment. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment).

      Yes maybe some good data came from that, but the means do not justify the ends, same thing applies when doing testing on animals.

  4. Chinese Science by sycodon · · Score: 2

    While most is purloined from elsewhere, the rest of it is tainted in the same way Nazi Science is tainted.

    China is a Totalitarian Communist Dictatorship with a facade of a Capitalist Economy.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  5. Nazi medical research ethics by Xenolith0 · · Score: 2

    For those posting with comments along the lines of: "Why doesn't it matter if innocent slaves were tortured, the science is valid?!"

    Ethics in medical (any) science is a very important, and we shouldn't encourage third-world dictatorships to create more suffering by accepting unethical medical research.

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-ethics-of-using-medical-data-from-nazi-experiments

    Holocaust survivor Susan Vigorito found the use of the word "data" a sterile term. She was 3½ when she and her twin sister, Hannah, arrived at Auschwitz. They were housed for an entire year in Mengele's private lab in a wooden cage a yard and a half wide. Without anesthetic, Mengele would repeatedly scrape at the bone tissue of one of her legs. Her sister died from repeated injections to her spinal column. She claims that she is the real data, the living data of Dr. Mengele.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4822534/

  6. Worst part is... by XArtur0 · · Score: 2

    that many of those victims only crime was to be against the government doing/allowing stuff like this to happen.

    Sadly, only Chinese people have any real chance of stopping the Chinese government.

  7. Continuing to allow this does exactly that. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Organ harvesting from a Nazi-like Chinese government exists, and is going on. Discarding the research sends a message the practice must die out, and good ethical science will replace it like it was never there.

    Continuing to allow this does exactly that. It continues to allow prisoners to have their organs unethically harvested in a macabre dystopian 3rd world manner.

    You're an apologist. You should have your organs harvested.

  8. Re:Why stop this? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

    The far lefties KNOW that China is unethical in many things.

    Yes: everyone knows that.

    This is just more of the same that they continue to back.

    There's no outrage quite like manufactured outrage. Go on point to when someone you consider "the left" supported China. Bonus points for telling me that China is communist without actually showing when someone supported them.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.