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Huawei Would Accept EU Supervision To Lay 5G Network (techradar.com)
An anonymous reader quotes a report from TechRadar: Huawei has said it is willing for its equipment and activities to be supervised by the European Union (EU) as it continues to fend off the threat of restrictions on the use of its kit in 5G networks. Last year it emerged the US, which has long frozen out the company from its own telecommunications infrastructure, had been encouraging other western nations to take similar action. The main basis for Washington's fears is a perception that Huawei is linked to the Chinese government and that the use of the company's equipment risks the possibility of backdoors that could be used for espionage. These fears are heightened by 5G because of the sensitive information these networks will carry. The US is concerned that if its allies continue to use Huawei kit, then America's security will be threatened.
Now, Abraham Liu, Huawei's chief representative to EU institutions, has used a speech to mark the Chinese New Year to repeat the company's denials and to stress its willingness to cooperate with the EU and European governments. "Cybersecurity should remain as a technical issue instead of an ideological issue. Because technical issues can always be resolved through the right solutions while ideological issue cannot," he is quoted as saying. "We are always willing to accept the supervision and suggestions of all European governments, customers and partners." A number of European nations, including the UK and Germany, have expressed concern about the use of Huawei equipment in their telecoms infrastructure, however earlier this week, France rejected proposals that would increase checks Last week, Huawei pledged to spend about $2 billion over five years to resolve the security issues in the United Kingdom. However, they also claimed that the firm "has never and will never use UK-based hardware, software or information gathered in the UK or anywhere else globally, to assist other countries in gathering intelligence." They added: "We would not do this in any country."
Now, Abraham Liu, Huawei's chief representative to EU institutions, has used a speech to mark the Chinese New Year to repeat the company's denials and to stress its willingness to cooperate with the EU and European governments. "Cybersecurity should remain as a technical issue instead of an ideological issue. Because technical issues can always be resolved through the right solutions while ideological issue cannot," he is quoted as saying. "We are always willing to accept the supervision and suggestions of all European governments, customers and partners." A number of European nations, including the UK and Germany, have expressed concern about the use of Huawei equipment in their telecoms infrastructure, however earlier this week, France rejected proposals that would increase checks Last week, Huawei pledged to spend about $2 billion over five years to resolve the security issues in the United Kingdom. However, they also claimed that the firm "has never and will never use UK-based hardware, software or information gathered in the UK or anywhere else globally, to assist other countries in gathering intelligence." They added: "We would not do this in any country."
...Washington's fears is a perception that Huawei is linked to the Chinese government and that the use of the company's equipment risks the possibility of backdoors that could be used for espionage...
(...bold mine...)
As we discuss this [important] issue, let's remember that the USA has been *cough* *caught* *cough* spying on allies through one of its 3 letter agencies. That's fact, which I hope will be taken as precedent.
What we are talking about here though, are mere possibilities.
Further, no one can guarantee a completely safe telecommunications regime anywhere; or is there?
Recall that Huawei isn't just on the US ban-list due to supposed state espionage fears. They've also been accused of stealing intellectual property from Nortel, Cisco, and possibly Motorola (source). It wouldn't be outrageous to assume they have targeted Ericsson, Nokia, or Alcatel-Lucent as well.
Worse, given the opaque relationship between Huawei and the Chinese government, we have no idea how much of that corporate espionage was performed by government teams, an issue the US has been fighting for some time (source), nor how much financial support the government is providing to subsidize pricing.
In short, banning Huawei is probably a good idea for those more mundane reasons alone.
Unless every component (both hardware and software) is being produced with total oversight (which it is not), then this agreement is a farce. Huawei can promise anything and everything, sign legally binding agreements, etc and you still couldn't trust them because they are based out of China. This is important because Chinese national security law gives the state (China) absolute authority in all matters when it comes to tech companies.
Besides, once they are widely installed, what are you going to do when you find out they can no longer be trusted (after a system-wide software update), rip out the entire infrastructure?
I said it before and I'll say it again, dictators only pretend to play fair.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Besides, once they are widely installed, what are you going to do when you find out they can no longer be trusted (after a system-wide software update), rip out the entire infrastructure?
There's only one thing that would make this make the slightest sense, and that's to demand full, compilable/installable sources for all components, and also full documentation of all of the silicon — and also inspectors embedded in the company to make sure that the silicon is being produced from the provided data. Anything even slightly less invalidates the entire concept.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Your argument is a cute piece of shilling. The Chinese intelligence agencies are blatantly stealing all technology they can, and blatantly giving it to their tech experts to reverse engineer. When tasked with reverse engineering stolen technology, there is no economic advantage in China to then clean room the same technology to undercut they inventor. You try to mislead us with the assumption that your corporations are not pawns of the government.
MORON WITH OPINION DULY NOTED. Gtfo you fucking idiot. The Chinese Communist Party is a red herring too derp. And you're a transparent one.
I said it before and I'll say it again, dictators only pretend to play fair.
I'm struggling with this entire post. Replace Huawei with Cisco and China with the USA and your post still makes perfect sense.
Huawei should put on the Internet all the source code, microcode and whatever for each device they want to sell into the EU and to the 5-eyes, under the GPL.
That ought to be enough to quell concerns? And since they are Chinese manufacturers themselves, nobody will undercut them on price, right? ;-)
I'm struggling with this entire post. Replace Huawei with Cisco and China with the USA and your post still makes perfect sense.
That's a good argument for any nation with the means to develop their own communications infrastructure. And also for any nation with the means to develop the means to do so. And also for OSS comms infrastructure wherever it is feasible. But it's not a valid argument against being concerned about employing Huawei equipment, so it boils down to whataboutism.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
I'm struggling with this entire post.
Then you haven't been keeping up with the status of things in China.
Replace Huawei with Cisco and China with the USA and your post still makes perfect sense.
Except national security laws don't put the state in control of the corporations. The closest thing they have is NSLs which can be fought in court (thus undermining their secrecy) and have clear restrictions on them. In China, you cannot refuse because government actors are on the board of directors and refusal to comply is completely unheard of because they will go after you and your family.
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On a side note, what this whole Huawei story should - but unfortunately will not - do is provide more evidence to our Congress as to why government-mandated back doors to encryption are untenable.
You shouldn’t have to trust the physical network. Good encryption shouldn’t rely on the network being secure - good encryption would mean even a government with direct taps into the network would not be able to decipher the communication going on. They would, at best, be able to determine the end points (which admittedly might still be useful information under some circumstances, although there would likely be other ways to deduce it even if the network hid it).
I don’t consider the Chinese and US government equivalent - although there are obviously certain people in positions of power in the US who share the Chinese government’s mindset. But it’s - demonstrably - simply not possible to build in intentional weaknesses into a system and expect the “bad guys” won’t be able to discover and exploit those weaknesses.
#DeleteChrome
How is this any different from Five Eyes' goons compromising Cisco hardware?
Is the ongoing effort to supervise Huawei worth the trouble and expense?
See the thing is, Huawei and Cisco are singular brands. I wouldn't buy either one. But I'd sure trust a random US brand over a random China one, that's just math. China is faggot shit run by criminals exclusively.
All phone calls are monitored and recored by NSA and others anyway in Europe.
Who the fuck cares if a chinese company inserts another back door?
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
...demand full, compilable/installable sources for all components, and also full documentation of all of the silicon...
It is possible to obfuscate subtle bugs within your code, so even if the EU had access to the source, it would require an incredibly thorough audit of the code. Just look at how multiple audits of open source packages such as openssl continue to turn up subtle, exploitable bugs that have been undetected for years. Finding those issues can be quite challenging.
And once your initial audit team has moved on, taking their knowledge with them, what level of competency do you think their replacements will have in checking all of the patches and version updates? It is a very common tactic to slip these backdoors into later bits of code once people's guards are down.
It is possible to obfuscate subtle bugs within your code, so even if the EU had access to the source, it would require an incredibly thorough audit of the code. Just look at how multiple audits of open source packages such as openssl continue to turn up subtle, exploitable bugs that have been undetected for years. Finding those issues can be quite challenging.
Yes, but this is an issue even for in-house software development, so that really doesn't change the situation from home-grown.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Because if a chinese company is involved the NSA will lose access. Nuff said.
Nope. The Chi-Com cabalist faggot government will GAIN access, if you use their wholly-owned subsidiary to build your network, moron. The NSA is in your ass either way.
Except national security laws don't put the state in control of the corporations.
Wow! Like have you not paid attention to anything that has been going on in the past few years in the USA? I mean next you're going to tell me that the USA government is unable to issue an order on a private corporation without any judicial oversight under the guise of national security.
The exploitation of the systems will happen in software, so unless they deliver ALL of their source and that sourceâ(TM)s resulting compiled binaries are verified for backdoors / exploitable vulns, this offer is disingenuous bullshit.
Y'all are missing the whole point. The issue is not that the use of Huawei equipment will allow the possibility of Chinese "spying", but rather than it will impose a rather significant curtailment of the ability of those most vocal WHO ALREADY ENJOY THAT CAPABILITY unfettered.
They won't accept any supervision by the EU. They will conquer the EU.
Corporatism != Free Market
I laugh every time I read something like "Huawei is linked to the Chinese government". Well duh! Businesses in China exist because the government let them. When the Chinese government asks a business to jump there are two options "ask how high" or shutdown you business. As a result there are only two types of Chinese tech companies in China, those that spy for the government and those that have not be asked to yet. There is no such thing as a Chinese tech company that has been asked to spy for the government but refused.
A typical American response. As usual, "if it was not for 'Murica" bullshit. America stood by for years, watching thousand, if not millions, die, while Ford and others cheered the Nazis on. Yes, later, the US decided to get involved for various reasons, but saying that US won the World War Two is, again, reaffirming your ignorance. Also, go rename just about every family of the rockets to the Van Braun 1, 2, 3, etc.
It is breathtaking to see such xenophobic racism modded up to +5 on Slashdot. What did Trump do with his trade war to people's brains? A year ago nobody would dare say something like this, it would be at -1 Troll. "Can't trust those shifty Chinese" is old-fashioned Yellow Peril rhetoric going back to Fu Manchu.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
It is breathtaking to see such xenophobic racism modded up to +5 on Slashdot.
This has nothing to do with xenophobia, nor racism. I do not trust the Chinese government which has been employing statism. The Chinese people are just as much victims of their government as anyone.
What did Trump do with his trade war to people's brains?
Nothing. That guy is soon to be exposed as a criminal and will be headed to jail.
A year ago nobody would dare say something like this, it would be at -1 Troll.
Literally, no. There has been news about the wrongdoing and human rights violations by the Chinese government for much longer than a year. This isn't something new.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Who the fuck cares if a chinese company inserts another back door?
Everyone that recognizes it would increase the power and influence of China's dictatorship.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
NSL argument aside, the USA is an ally to the EU and China is not. Also, it's not a binary option. The EU could produce it's own hardware. Why the focus on the US when the subject is China?
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
"In view of the fact that Huawei spying for the Chinese govt. is so far mostly speculation" - No, it isn't. They're a wholly owned subsidiary of the Chinese government and the spying IN PLAIN SIGHT is documented over 6 times. You're a moron.
It's you who is a moron. Firstly I vividly remember stating that I don't trust Huawei even as far as I can throw them Secondly, the fact that they are owned by the Chinese govt. does not prove they are spying on their customer base. But by all means, do amaze us with your secret trove of evidence of Huawei's spring activities. Perhaps in the form of a torrent file to a multi gigabyte tarball of data?
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
How many people actually capable of supervising Huawei are there in the EU? Are they going to be babysitting Huawei installing their equipment and monitoring the running system the whole time?
There's just no possible way of supervising such a huge system even if there's was some omnipowerful taskforce, that had access all communication and to each station immediately and without questions.
You are a smug fucking prick. Eat a dick faggot.
Your trolls are so fucking weak. Your strawmen are built using leaves. Nothing you say now a days is useful. Everything that comes out of your mouth is troll propaganda and strawmen.
who will constantly personally monitor every worker who works on it to see that it is never "upgraded" with censoring and/or spying equipment?
And of course there's also this other nugget: This completely distracts from the problem that the tech they would be installing is all stolen tech.
American firms, and to some extent European firms, are behind most of this tech but the Chinese are trying to be the ones to make all the money from making and installing it and will then be the ones who ultimately control it. Given that China is a totalitarian dictatorship that recognizes no human rights and it has gradually shifted [unofficially] to a fascist model complete with a dictator-for-life, this is all highly problematic for the future of the human race.
While people on the political left have spent years ranting that Trump is the new Hitler, they have been willfully blind to the Chinese because they are both non-white [which feeds into identity politicis] and officially communist [which is a form of the left's beloved Marxism]. At the same time, "never-Trumpers" on the right have also been willfully blind to China because it fattens their wallets as an integral part of their globalist markets dreams. Both of these groups fantasize that Trump is going to start-up death camps any day soon, while ignoring the actual prison camps, re-education facilities, prisoner organ harvesting, etc from China and willingly tolerating that same China gaining access to all the tech that would have actually enabled a Hitler run Reich to reach global domination.
Well we do know from leaks the US was spying (and probably still is) on various EU leaders and citizens.
So it becomes more a question of which one is easier to mitigate.
Hmm?
Well, they could do something like make the HW and let the EU provide their own SW. OS, drivers, and all other functionality.
Nobody was bashing China until Trump's trade war started.
Actually, that's not quite right. We've been frienemies with China for a while and have always been wary of them and consistently critical. After the China was changed to a full on dictatorship any allusions of legitimacy were removed. China's spying and IP theft have become increasingly exposed while awareness of just how much stuff is hackable and/or does spy on you has gone through the roof. As such, we know that China's efforts to build any kind of electronic infrastructure in a foreign nation is a serious security threat.
Then there was this weird shift and now everyone has jumped on the xenophobia bandwagon.
Do you not understand the definition of xenophobia or are you a fucking moron who can't stop using it incorrectly? The problem is not that they are from outside the US because surprise, we're good friends with and trust most countries in the EU. The EU and US spy on each others' citizens and then compares notes. China, yeah, they want information to jail dissidents and aren't about to help nab a Chinese citizen.
The NSA has been caught red-handed doing the exact same thing.
I have never claimed the US is innocent. To say I'm not fond of their actions is an understatement. Frankly, I think it would be in the best interest of the EU to build their own networks.
The head of the NSA lied to Congress about it.
Yep, Clapper should have been jailed for lying.
The government had been gathering and storing data from ordinary Americans' phone records, email and Internet use.
Yeah, that bullshit needs to be stopped.
The US government spies on people and violates the law but they don't lock up dissidents, mandate censorship or confine people to "re-education" jails.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Besides, once they are widely installed, what are you going to do when you find out they can no longer be trusted (after a system-wide software update), rip out the entire infrastructure?
It's significantly worse than that, because making the hardware means they can add things like backdoor'd chips, and hidden coprocessors with full access to everything the normal processor can see. They wouldn't even need a malicious software update because every piece of hardware is compromised from the start.
They should technology transfers from Huawei. I think something like that has been done before.
open up their source code for peer scrutiny
Go well
Yes, there are many ways to go about it. The trick is to do it and get away with it. I have no doubt the UK's intel agency will be tearing one of these down to ensure the hardware is what they claim.
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Hey guys, they're selling radios. Radios broadcast! Beep beep beep, everyone can hear me!
Who CARES what company a radio comes from? From a security perspective, it's still telling f'ing everyone! There are no secrets over the air!
So, what don't you want to buy from evil inc.?
Yeah, you guessed it. The crypto layer. In LTE & NR, that's the PDCP. So, Huawei, do yourselves a favour: implement the F1 interface so that someone can buy your 5G radios and not do ciphering on your box! (Lookitupkids!)
While you're at it, finish standardizing the W1 interface, and do the same on LTE.
And join the Open RAN Alliance and do interop on F1 and W1 there.
That's like... $2M of development?
Take the rest of that bucket of money and spend it advertising that you sell radios that JUST DO RADIO, so that Western countries can buy them while thumbing their noses at America!
Or just take it Vegas. Or buy me drinks. Oh, and implement xRAN fronthaul so that folks can buy some non-Huawei RRUs to counter the "Huawei will brick your network" drivel that Trumperica loves pumping out. If someone has 10% non-Huawei RRUs, it's enough to not be a national security issue -- network's still gonna run even if you do commit suicide by taking down a fraction of some tin-pot democracy's wireless network.
But don't just SIT THERE pushing "5G" radios with the old LTE security model and then WHINE when nobody wants to buy them from you. Embrace 5G and network slicing, use it to show you're not your government's tool (and that you know what 5G is).
THEN drinks!
There were Nazi sympathizers in many countries, including France and Great Britain. It's not like Henry Ford was our President, or even an elected official.
Europe is lucky that the United States chose to do anything, especially considering how much we sacrificed to end the first World War.
Why struggle? Let this be the beginning of Europe's independence from state-compromised hardware vendors. Get rid of Huawei and Cisco. Poof, problem gone.
Then all you would have to worry about is Brussels.
Doubtful, the UK isn't exactly known for their chip architecture expertise and even if they were there's only a handful of people in the world who could spot hardware-level backdoors of that nature with the full chip layout in a logical diagram, let alone slices of the actual hardware+photos. It would take the best chip designers well over a decade to verify such a thing - and they're likely to have lots of different chips in the hardware devices.
Everyone that recognizes it would increase the power and influence of China's dictatorship.
And who the fuck cares about the chinese internal affairs?
It does not matter if China steals my data from the NSA or gets it via a backdoor ...
What matters would be a denial of service attack ... so: make sure you have many vendors, and a redundant network.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Apk have ass, want cock
Nobody was bashing China until Trump's trade war started.
*spits out coffee* ...What in tarnation?! Are you actually serious?! For *decades*, the Western world has lamented China's absolute disregard for human rights and equality in favor of keeping the Communist party in power without a single soul to question their power domestically. There's *plenty* of reports of Party officials "disappearing" or "harmonizing" dissidents within their country for daring to question the Party's authority.
You somehow manage to drag Trump (whom is a massive ignoramus, but that is an issue for another topic) into this already preexisting simmering mess of geopolitical tension between Western and Eastern powers and boldly proclaim that no one was bashing China for any reason whatsoever right until Trump decided to take long sought action against the China's *documented* misdeeds with the international community in terms of IP theft, currency manipulation, and cyber sabotage?!
I am not a great fan of Trump as much as any other reasonable, sane person would be, but this is most definitely NOT the current President's fault. Please remove your partisan skull out of your butt and take a fresh look at history.
Guess you've never heard of ARM...??
This is not about America selling goods. Apparently, not a one of our telephony companies produces 5G equipment, except the spec, and base chips. As such, you would be buying only EU and Japanese equipment. If produced in your nations, I'm sure it will be secured. This equipment is used by NATO. I suspect that NATO will refuse to use your lines, if they are rewarded as unsecured.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
NSL argument aside
No. This is fundamental.
the USA is an ally to the EU and China is not.
The USA has been caught red handed spying on it's allies in the EU. China has not (though undoubtedly it happens).
Why the focus on the US when the subject is China?
Nice deflection, but the subject is not China. The subject is risk of technology being rolled out in Europe. You're quick to attack China under the premise that there is an alternative. So what's that alternative? Better the devil who pretends to be your ally with whom you have a struggling trade relationship and who constantly criticises your security over the devil with whom your relationship has been on the up and up?
NSA does not listen to all of European traffic. Quit being paranoid.
That would be a lie on your part. American businesses can not be forced by the government to put in backdoors. But Chinese government can and do.
Look at Venezuela, Ecuador, and Sri Lanka. Do you want to be in their situation?
Nice deflection, but the subject is not China. The subject is risk of technology being rolled out in Europe.
Actually, the subject is Huawei rolling out 5G in the EU. China is the actor in this instance and thus subject to scrutiny. This has nothing to do with the US.
You're quick to attack China under the premise that there is an alternative. So what's that alternative?
The EU can build their own network using their own equipment made by their own companies. You act as if they are a bunch of invalids that need someone else to do it for them.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Everyone that recognizes it would increase the power and influence of China's dictatorship.
And who the fuck cares about the chinese internal affairs?
Their internal affairs are not the issue here, it's their external power and influence that is at the heart of the matter.
It does not matter if China steals my data from the NSA or gets it via a backdoor ...
Would it matter if China steals all the IP from your corporations and then starts sinking your economy by churning out replicas of similar or higher quality at the same time your country does? That's the goal of the China 2025 initiative: to make everything in China by 2025 and become a major exporter or goods.
What matters would be a denial of service attack
The only people worried about a DoS attack from China are those who don't understand their goals.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Doubtful, the UK isn't exactly known for their chip architecture expertise
Riiiight. There is a little known company called ARM in the UK. You may have heard of them.
Anyway, if they didn't find anything do you honestly think they would be satisfied? It seems far more likely they would start out with distributing sample to all the intel agencies in EU an Five Eyes for analysis because they are all facing the same threat.
As for the rest:
A) You don't have to RE entire chips to find backdoors. Hell, sometimes you don't even have to take them apart.
B) If they aren't using something novel then we already know what to look for.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
open the door to that room over there. That's um unsafe chemical storage yeah. Yeah because you can't hide the fact you'll be funneling traffic back to China or pay off inspectors.. geez
As for the rest: A) You don't have to RE entire chips to find backdoors. Hell, sometimes you don't even have to take them apart. B) If they aren't using something novel then we already know what to look for.
You absolutely do have to take apart the chips, and frequently sample a non-negligable chunk of incoming components to ensure they match the audited version.
Documents can be forged, especially with the collusion of both the corporation and host government aiming to forge them.
No just the important people.
Someone didn't read the Snowden leaks.
You absolutely do have to take apart the chips
Nope. It's possible to find hidden "features" without disassembly by bombarding a processor with data and in looking to see if you trigger unexpected behavior. I'm not saying it always works, I'm saying it works with some types of hardware backdoors.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
Nope. It's possible to find hidden "features" without disassembly by bombarding a processor with data and in looking to see if you trigger unexpected behavior. I'm not saying it always works, I'm saying it works with some types of hardware backdoors.
Without 100% coverage it's not a security audit, it's a false sense of security. Anything this high level is going to be immune to that sort of attack.
reading is fundamental! "I'm not saying it always works, I'm saying it works with some types of hardware backdoors."
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
reading is fundamental! "I'm not saying it always works, I'm saying it works with some types of hardware backdoors."
Yes, reading is fundamental, so is context. The context here is a nation auditing another nation known to introduce security holes and backdoors into every system they create prior to purchase an implementation over a tentative ~5 year timespan on prior to the time required to perform those audits or even have an oversight team in place at the manufacturer. Anything less than 100% coverage in this context is not a security audit, it is a false sense of security at best.
So we have published cases of the USA having back doors in some of their products....and apparently that's OK because it's the USA, yet we have no concrete evidence that Huawei have back doors in their products, only the USA's paranoid speculation - yet everyone who's considered an "ally" have to do as they're told and avoid Huawei too?
You are an idiot.
it's their external power and influence that is at the heart of the matter.
They have ICBMs and nuclear submarines that can bomb the US since the mid 1950s.
Would it matter if China steals all the IP from your corporations and then starts sinking your economy by churning out replicas of similar or higher quality at the same time your country does?
No it would not.
That's the goal of the China 2025 initiative: to make everything in China by 2025 and become a major exporter or goods.
Obviously. And that was the goal of the US around 1950, and failed.
The only people worried about a DoS attack from China are those who don't understand their goals. ... what are you trying to do to understand them?
Yes, so
Unlike the USA, China is not striving for world domination but for developing its own country. That is actually a "double unlike".
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.