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Know-It-All Robot Shuts Down Dubious Family Texts (wsj.com)

Biting your tongue at yet another questionable article shared in your message group? Add artificial-intelligence fact-checker Meiyu, she will jump in with 'False.' From a report: The artificial-intelligence bot will interject in real time when she detects posts about the news, pointing out factual errors and alternative interpretations. The technology, created by Taiwanese developers, is a step ahead of most fact-checking apps, including versions offered in Brazil and Indonesia, which don't jump into conversations. Other popular fact-checkers, such as Snopes in the U.S., are public databases that users consult for reviews of news items. Meiyu quickly became hot in Taiwan, which had just gone through divisive local elections and is rife with rumors of China's interference in social media. The bot now has more than 110,000 users on the Japanese messaging app Line, which covers about 90% of the mobile-messaging market in Taiwan.

89 of 160 comments (clear)

  1. This could replace Trump entirely? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Awesome, do it now. The criminal fraud Presidency needs corrected.

    1. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by lgw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Awesome, do it now. The criminal fraud Presidency needs corrected.

      And this is of course the problem with bots like this. The "facts" will always conform to a particular political world view - that's just how humans work. Imagine your feed where a bot installed by a big Trump fan labeled stuff as "fake news" whenever it disagreed with Trump. And that's exactly how it works in China. It isn't some hypothetical situation here: government control of "fact checking" is the very heart of modern totalitarianism.

      People have these naive ideas about "facts" being objective and bias free, and that's great, but fact-checkers never are. The farther down the rabbit hole a society goes, the more blatant this effect becomes.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    2. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      So you're saying Trump hasn't lied ~8700 times since taking office, provably, in verified print or on camera? Or are you saying your head up Putin's ass is more important than the truth? Either way, kill yourself traitor.

      Trump hangs for treason either way, and his and your lies will be corrected whether you like it or not.

    3. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by Megol · · Score: 1

      So a Taiwanese program used in Taiwan is controlled by China? I can't check the article myself as I have no login on the linked site and will not get one.

    4. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by Shotgun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Worse than that, some "facts" are impossible to establish.

      We all now know that Jussie Smollett is a liar, but is Ilham Omar really an antisemite? That is, was her apology sincere?
      We know that Trump publicly asked Russia to find Hillary's emails, but did he know if they had them, or was he sarcastically playing on the news of the day?

      Most people's version of "truth" will depend on how they interpret vague things that are essentially unknowable.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    5. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by the_skywise · · Score: 1

      To be fair we don't *know* that Jussie Smollett is a liar. He still stands by his story and the evidence hasn't been presented at trial yet.
      Right TruthBot?
      That is correct.

    6. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by Tablizer · · Score: 1, Troll

      Predicted response: "Fake bot, totally rigged, believe me! I know more than these bots, I'm a technical expert. They merely echo lyin' CNN, any loser can do that. Build a bigly firewall around those yapping rusted toasters that nobody listens to. Lowest ratings of all machines ever. My desk's diet Coke button has better ratings."

    7. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by Aristos+Mazer · · Score: 1

      All of the above is why any fact check database like this needs to have transparency, crowd sourcing, error bars, reputation scores, and metamoderation.

    8. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      That's a perfectly straightforward solution. For claims that can't be established as true or not, simply label them as inconclusive. For complex subjects, enumerate the claims, and evaluate them independently. Jussie Smollett might have been proven to lie about things in the past, and he might have been proven to tell the truth in the past as well, but those have minimal impact on the current issue, whose truth has not yet been determined.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    9. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      You forgot Cheeto and Oompah Loompah references.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    10. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      So a Taiwanese program used in Taiwan is controlled by China? I can't check the article myself as I have no login on the linked site and will not get one.

      That's utterly missing the point of his comment. Unless you think Taiwan is staffed solely by angels.

    11. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      Their suspicion of the bots being rigged has some merit. The EU runs a small bureau to (manually) combat fake news in a similar manner, but it has been caught out for being wrong about several news items. And it looks like it wasn’t a case of honest mistakes, but politically motivated spin.

      These bots can be an awesome tool to achieve the same on a grand scale. Simply teach them to sniff out discussions about truths you want suppressed, and have the bots chime in with carefully crafted official narrative (thruthiness)

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    12. Re: This could replace Trump entirely? by TigerPlish · · Score: 1

      Enligtenment ideas are racist, got it. You outted the ideal of taking us back to the dark ages.

      I'll settle for pre-internet era. At least back then, everyone knew where the bullshit was and avoided stepping in it.

      Now, it's all bullshit, 100% of it, can't believe a fucking word anybody says about any fucking thing at all.

      We are truly living in a world where Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt rule the Earth.

      --
      The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
    13. Re: This could replace Trump entirely? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Of course you're right, but it sounds "ominous" doesn't it. Conveying a sense of dread and imperiling our Democracy (er ... republic). Which was the goal, all along.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    14. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 1

      "So a Taiwanese program used in Taiwan is controlled by China?"

      If the company is run or staffed with KMT supporters then it might as well be controlled by Communist China.

      --
      "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    15. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by larryjoe · · Score: 1

      Worse than that, some "facts" are impossible to establish.

      That is true. In fact, the truthiness algorithms probably have some calculated level of confidence for all inputs. The practical use of the algorithm doesn't require raising an alarm for every input that is determined to have some level of untruthiness. Rather, the alarm can be raised for just a high level of untruthiness. Furthermore, since it's the oft repeated untruths that do the most harm on a societal basis, the alarms can be further restricted to those high-level of untruthiness statements that are often repeated.

    16. Re: This could replace Trump entirely? by TigerPlish · · Score: 1

      You could start by getting off the internet.

      Believe me, I grew up without it, I could do just fine thank you.

      But that would only help *my* sanity.

      The cancerous brain-washing of all those retards on both right and left who believe everything that comes out of that goddamned lie box will continue, and that will help no one.

      Heh. TV truly is dead, and teh interweeebz replaced it as the main ad delivererer, brainwasher and tell-you-what-to-feel-and-how-to-act. Yup! TV's dead, long live the new TV!

      Fuck all. What have we wrought. What have we allowed to happen.

      Biggest problem? Trusting tech to solve the problem is the worst fucking solution possible. THe best solution would be for people to think for their own, but no, that's too fucking hard.

      --
      The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
    17. Re: This could replace Trump entirely? by yuriklastalov · · Score: 1

      They've just outsourced their sanctimonious bullshit to AI and machine learning algorithms. As long as they disclose that they're too stupid to come up with their own rebuttals, who cares?

    18. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by Can'tNot · · Score: 1

      ideas about "facts" being objective and bias free, and that's great, but fact-checkers never are

      Okay, I will agree with you on this point at least. But... so what? From a practical standpoint your quibble seems to be entirely useless. Regardless of the bias of the fact checkers, facts still exist and falsehoods still exist and so facts need to be checked.

      We have a bit of additional protection in that, unlike other journalists, fact-checkers' goal and purpose is to suppress bias as much as possible. So they have some motivation, more so than other journalists, to keep their information as neutral as they can. When they fail in this respect we can apply our standard method of having multiple sources, multiple fact checkers, in order to address this concern. Thus they provide a check on one another. They already do this of course, and have been doing it this way forever, so... what is the point of bringing this up?

    19. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by lgw · · Score: 1

      "Fact checking" is, in general, a process that always spirals into ideological control and enforced orthodoxy.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    20. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by lgw · · Score: 1

      Right, fact checking... not the fucking media alltogether, no the scourge is fact checking, where you have to at least explain why something might be true or not, by deffinition.

      The government already controls the news media entirely. This is the next step.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    21. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by lgw · · Score: 1

      We have a bit of additional protection in that, unlike other journalists, fact-checkers' goal and purpose is to suppress bias as much as possible.

      All the major fact-checkers in the US today have descended into politics pretty far already. Some are blatant political propaganda.

      And do you think people want neutral fact checkers? Of course not. They want their beliefs confirmed, and will find fact checkers that do that.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    22. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by Tom · · Score: 1

      Truth is never subjective, but our knowledge of it can be limited or false.

      If someone said something, that's a truth. He said it. If we have recordings of it, we can prove that he said it (ignoring forgery for a moment). Thus the truth value of a statement that says "he never said ..." can be established and evidence can be provided.

      A machine like this does need to know the "undetermined" answer. It cannot work binary. "I don't know" has to be one of its answers as well as "there is conflicting evidence, here it is".

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    23. Re: This could replace Trump entirely? by McFortner · · Score: 1

      Fact checkers do research and present their results.

      Can we get some fact checking on this please? And, no, you can't use fact checkers to fact check the fact checkers.

      Have fun with that.

      --
      Beware of Sales Reps bearing gifts.
    24. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by Can'tNot · · Score: 1

      Yes, fact-checkers are subject to all of the standard pitfalls of journalism. As well as all of the standard solutions to those pitfalls. The question remains: what is your point? Where are you going with this? Are you seriously suggesting that we should just throw up our hands and give up on the concept of truth? Facts still need to be checked.

    25. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by lgw · · Score: 1

      My point is that the false authority of "fact checkers" is a tool that really serves no other purpose than abuse. It is a tool of ideological propaganda, and should be thusly despised.

      Do your own research, or "follow" someone who does. Either way, you can only find the truth at the end of your own journey of discovery.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    26. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by Can'tNot · · Score: 1

      or "follow" someone who does

      What could we call such a person, I wonder... I'm going to go with "truth verifier."

      You've made a giant leap from, "fallible humans who don't always succeed at overcoming their biases," to, "false authorities worthy only of derision and hate." I don't see how that leap is in any way justified, and it's impractical regardless. We're always going to need fact checkers, even if you don't want to call them fact checkers.

      I read an article a while back in a philosophy publication in which a guy made the suggestion that we should all verify each story for ourselves, by (politely) contacting primary sources. It's such an absurd notion. If someone gets killed in a notable way, this does not mean that their parents are suddenly capable of fielding questions from ten million individual skeptical readers. Nor should they have any obligation to do so. Let alone all of the time that each of those readers has to spend verifying every story of any consequence that shows up in the news every day.

    27. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by lgw · · Score: 1

      There's a significant difference between trusting someone you know, and trusting an abstract "fact checking service" with an unknown agenda. Much like movie reviewers - most are useless, but sometimes you find one whose biases you understand (but even then, sometimes you discover they've been taking bribes), and sometimes you just go with the opinion of a fried who got there first.

      The last bit is how I work, for the most part. I benefit from the professional experience of my friends, when possible, or undertake my own education at length if I feel it really matters. Otherwise I don't presume to know what's "fact".

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    28. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by Can'tNot · · Score: 1

      You're reading a news site. If the only facts you're willing to accept are those which are directly connected to you friends' employment, or which you research extensively yourself (Whatever that means. I have no idea how you research something if you're unwilling to accept any information which isn't connected directly to one of your friends.) then... why are you here? What could Slashdot possibly offer you, if you're unwilling to believe anything that anyone here says?

      You do say that you're willing to listen to people who you don't know personally, but who you do know by reputation. You give the example of movie reviewers... who write articles just like any other journalist, and put their names on those articles just like any other journalist. Every journalist does that. Including fact checkers.

    29. Re:This could replace Trump entirely? by lgw · · Score: 1

      Plenty of stuff is interesting even if you can't be sure whether it's true. The political stuff on Slashdot is worthless except as debate practice, but there's still plenty of technical/scientific stuff. I've learned a lot over the years from looking into "shit some guy on the internet said". When you get away from politics and economics, it's much easier to verify stuff and decide who has earned your trust.

      E.g., I completely flipped my opinion on dark matter and dark evergy thanks to some smart-sounding Slashdot posts. I didn't believe the posts at face value, but it started me on a journey to understand the underlying cosmology, physics, and data well enough to have an informed opinion. Now I can sometimes spot errors in shows like PBS Space Time (which to its great credit tries to acknowledge errors in later episodes).

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  2. I want one... by MikeRT · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That detects people asserting logical fallacies and tells them that they don't know what they're talking about.

    Ought to be real fun with the I Fucking Love Science crowd when they get told that "scientific consensus" is a euphemism for argumentum ad popolum.

    Or with people in general when it says:

    "Calling you a dishonest, good for nothing shitbag is just an insult. To be argumentum ad hominem he'd have to say that you being a dishonest, good for nothing shitbag is specifically the grounds on which your argument is wrong. Even asserting that facts in contention ought to be held in contention until independently verified because you're a dishonest shitbag is not argumentum ad hominem."

    1. Re:I want one... by Megol · · Score: 1

      I think you'd be disappointed. Someone that thinks scientific consensus is a peoples vote...

    2. Re:I want one... by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      That detects people asserting logical fallacies and tells them that they don't know what they're talking about.

      And I want one that detects people asserting that logical fallacies means people don't know what they're talking about, and tells them that they don't know what they're talking about. (Argument from fallacy is also a fallacy.)

      But not one that tells mine that it doesn't know what it's talking about, because that would be just crazy!

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    3. Re:I want one... by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Scientific Consensus would be argumentum ad popolum if it was true that consensus determines facts, however, it does not. It merely flags particular theories as known-to-be-accepted-in-the-mainstream.

      Science is a process, not a set of theories or conclusions. Therefore, you identified the correct fallacy in the argument, but in the wrong part of the argument. Where they're engaging in argumentum ad popolum is when they're saying that because there is a "scientific consensus," therefore the body of the consensus is also correct, or worse, sometimes they'll even want to call it "proven." But science does not and can not attempt to "prove" things. Science is merely a process by which you can attempt to repeat things; the personal goal of scientists is often to discover the "why" of things, but science doesn't actually do that. And the good ones know it! Their personal goal of understanding "why" is separate from their professional goals of taking additional steps in a process. But conclusions are not one of the steps that is even part of the process, so consensus about what the current-best-answer is doesn't even touch on or support coming to conclusions about it!

      "I think, therefore I am" is a complete failure, but because the lesson is valuable (if I don't exist it doesn't matter if I'm wrong, if I do exist but believe I don't I won't be motivated to survive, therefore belief in existence is the only answer with potential utility) we also value scientific consensus; not because it is ever correct, or capable of being correct, but because it supports additional attempts at understanding.

    4. Re:I want one... by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Continental Drift called, it wants you to be less credulous of the Divinity of the extant process.

    5. Re: I want one... by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      Some people ignore science and can only be persuaded by logical fallacies. Is it misleading to tailor the message to your audience when the goal is to help them accept the truth?

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    6. Re:I want one... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Not all logical fallacies are false, simply because they are a fallacy.

      Slippery Slope is a logical fallacy, not because it isn't sometimes true, because it is sometimes true. Slippery slope is a logical fallacy because one cannot assert it as a truth, because it might be false. Dismissing a Slippery slope argument as "false" is also a logical fallacy, because it can be true. The point is, it isn't definitive either way, which also makes it a logical fallacy.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    7. Re:I want one... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Scientific Consensus isn't either. Science isn't based on consensus, and consensus isn't always based on science. There are a lot of butthurt feelings whenever I cover this exact point, almost like feeling matter more than facts.

      Consensus is often a blockage that prevents additional understanding, because the new understanding might have difficulty because it is contrary to the current consensus. Real Science tries to avoid consensus, largely because it has been wrong so often in the past.

      The weird thing is now, because there is so much emphasis in consensus building in politically sensitive "Sciency" areas. It is almost like nobody has learned from history that consensus might actually be harmful.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    8. Re:I want one... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      And fail. Scientific consensus is not "argumentum ad popolum", as to be part of it requires some actual qualification and insight into the topic. Your "argument" (which is actually a fallacy) is however popular will all those that do not like what science finds out and would much rather regard their own fantasies as the truth.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    9. Re:I want one... by gweihir · · Score: 2

      Scientific consensus is science. It means a lot of smart people have looked and did a) find convincing evidence for it and b) failed to find any reasonable contradictory evidence. As a result, scientific consensus is nothing like ordinary consensus. This faulty reasoning is however a favorite of anti-science people that do not like the facts that science finds and think that if they just believe hard enough in their own fantasies, reality changes.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    10. Re:I want one... by alvinrod · · Score: 1

      I would say that on average the scientific consensus is a better approximation or model of the capital-T Truth than the average other explanations that exist. That's a little bit meaningless, but the idea is is that the current consensus replaced a previous consensus that wasn't as close to the true explanation or understanding of the universe. New ideas can come out and change the consensus, but the consensus exists for a reason. It's not that people were wrong or idiots, but often just do to the limitations in our ability to objectively measure the universe.

      To provide an example, before we understood microorganisms and developed germ theory, the doctors at the time operated under something called miasma theory, which indicated that bad air or noxious odors from rotting things. We know that this is wrong, but you have to look at why people believed it and the answer is that their belief in it caused them to behave in such a way that reduced the spread of disease. Prior to that you did shit like put leaches on a person to get rid of the bad blood, or drilled holes in their skull to let the evil spirits out. Miasma theory wasn't perfect, but it got people to dress up like plague doctors which was somewhat more effective of preventing the spread of airborne illness, so of course it seemed right to anyone at the time. Until you create a microscope and can view microbes, there isn't any more reason to believe in them than invisible purple unicorns that place hexes on people.

      Yes, consensus can be limiting because it naturally opposes new radical ideas. However, most radical new ideas are complete shit. We're not going to have a healing crystal theory of disease anytime soon, for example. The downsides to consensus don't outweigh the benefits though. I really doubt that you'd want to live in a world that treats any point of view as having equally worthy consideration as the consensus. It might sound great, but then you get idiocy like the NHS having to pay for crystal therapy treatments, because why shouldn't that be just as good as modern medicine? The only way you could have such a system is in a anarchic system where everyone is free to do as they will and suffer the consequences of their own poor decisions. I'll gladly accept the small amount of imposition on freedom that consensus brings.

    11. Re: I want one... by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Is it misleading to tailor the message to your audience when the goal is to help them accept the truth?

      Depends on how you determine "truth". If you are working on the assumption that "I said it, therefore it's TRUTH", then it's misleading.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    12. Re:I want one... by Namarrgon · · Score: 1

      Real Science tries to avoid consensus, largely because it has been wrong so often in the past.

      Wut??

      You honestly believe that? Talk about "feelings matter more than facts"! First, the number of things mainstream scientific consensus has been regularly shown to be right about vastly dwarfs the number of times it's been wrong - which is why it's still so important to the scientific process (and if you really haven't noticed that about virtually every major field then you truly are deep in denial).

      Second, on the occasions it's been wrong - a new, more correct consensus formed as soon as there was compelling evidence for an alternative model - evidence that not only strongly supported the new model, but (importantly) also explained all the existing evidence.

      People like you try to wave away majority expert interpretation as if it were a Slashdot poll, but you invariably fail to produce compelling evidence to change those interpretations - let alone explain away the decades of existing evidence.

      Worse, you're remarkably selective about it; I've never seen you disparage consensus about e.g. astrophysics or mathematics (yes, consensus is important in maths too, whenever theorems get complex, because People Can Be Wrong, and consensus minimises individual error).

      --
      Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
    13. Re:I want one... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Scientific consensus is not the same as consensus. Do you know nothing?

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    14. Re:I want one... by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      While the etymology might be interesting, it doesn't tell you anything about the meaning.

    15. Re:I want one... by Tom · · Score: 1

      This faulty reasoning is however a favorite of anti-science people

      I'm not sure anymore. I think they intentionally ignore the science for their pet topics while perfectly ok with it in other topics. It's like the preacher telling about modern technology being the devils work - in a church built with modern building techniques over a computerized speaker system. Or the islamists burning evil western electronics and filming it with smartphones.

      There people aren't necessarily "anti-science". They are just in their specific field of interest so dead set on their preconceptions that they'll let nothing get in their way. Argument, logic, science, whatever.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    16. Re:I want one... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Well, I regard people that selectively accept only the science that fits what they believe to be fundamentally "anti-science". Science is not a bazaar where you select what you like and ignore the rest. You can either be rational and accept the full package (whit all the sometimes very uncomfortable facts that brings) or be irrational and treat scientifically well-established facts as things that are up to discussion by laypeople or even as things that can be conveniently ignored. Of course, Science has also less well-established facts and things that are speculation. But it is emphatically not up to non-experts to determine which is which.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    17. Re:I want one... by Tom · · Score: 1

      But it is emphatically not up to non-experts to determine which is which.

      This, btw., is a problem - science isn't democratic.

      We'll have to solve that problem if we want both of them to survive.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    18. Re:I want one... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I agree that it is a problem. But it is that Science is not egalitarian. If you want to actually have a voice in Science, you need to devote a larger part of your life to it and you need some pretty specific talents to start with. And that voice needs to come with proof for the statements made, so just pushing opinions (all that most people can actually do) is not going to cut it. Hence most people cannot get a voice in science.

      That said, the problem is made worse by regrettably quite a few scientists that have the expert knowledge, but are lacking in ethics. Hence they can be bought and they will lie or at least misdirect (which often requires another expert to notice). So while Science is about truth and insight, scientists are not always and far too often not.

      I do think this problem has to be solved in Science. We need to make sure (being a scientist myself) that people can actually trust what scientists claim and explain to them. This does include Engineers here, as quite a bit of tech is not strictly Science anymore but has huge impact on society. My own small contribution is that whenever I teach, I make it a point to always include ethical aspects. And to both explain my own take on things ethics-wise and to tell the student that they must make their own decisions in that regards (which may well differ from mine) and that just going with the flow is not acceptable. They must take responsibility for their actions. No idea how much good that does in the end, but I think that is the best we can do at this time.

      If the general public can trust Science and scientists and does listen to them, then democracy can work. As it is now (anti-vaxxers, flat-earthers, cmimate-change deniers, etc. all allowed to vote and not allowing them to vote being even worse), democracy is broken. There is no better replacement, but this, the best current solution, is abysmally bad.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    19. Re:I want one... by Tom · · Score: 1

      But it is that Science is not egalitarian.

      In theory, yes. However, even scientists are only experts in their own narrow field and have to trust the other scientists for everything else. And science and its results touch you literally everywhere. From air pollution to the food you eat to the tech you use and increasingly (sociology, psychology) the politics, society, culture and personal interactions of your life.

      We already see people abusing pseudo-scientific arguments in political ways (not just in politics, also in pushing agendas outside of parties, parliaments and elections).

      We also see the political abuse of properly conducted science, i.e. hand-picking the studies you like, lying about what the consensus is or postulating a consensus that isn't yet established.

      I make it a point to always include ethical aspects.

      Ironically, ethics is not scientific. :-)

      That's not to say I don't support it. I'm a firm believer in striving to be better than those around me as a personal goal and to consider ethical factors. I think we need more of that and way stronger punishments on the unethical fucks that have come to dominate politics and economics.

      But there's no scientific base for ethics. It's funny really, that this simple core value teaches us that desipite the outstanding success of science as a model to understand and control our world, the world still is larger than just science (there's also arts, of course).

      If the general public can trust Science and scientists and does listen to them, then democracy can work.

      There are conflicts we will have with us for a long time. GM foods are a good example. Scientists would love to do research on them and the public (at least here in Europe) largely says "nope". Same on human cloning. And while some of the reservations are simply based on not understanding the science, many of them do understand the science and still object.

      The other part of the equation is scientists accepting democracy, even when it impacts their pet research project.

      But I agree with you that the opposite, the fake and pseudo science and the anti-science mindset of too many is at this time the far larger problem.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    20. Re:I want one... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      But it is that Science is not egalitarian.

      In theory, yes. However, even scientists are only experts in their own narrow field and have to trust the other scientists for everything else.

      Actually, no. First, any real scientist does understand the scientific process and what it can and cannot deliver. And second, a scientist is able to verify claims in a different field to a much deeper degree than a non-scientist. Sure, the quality of that verification drops the more removed the other field is, but it is still much better than what a non-scientist can do. Hence at least good scientists are a lot harder to fool and at the same time do understand a lot better when they are incompetent with regards to a specific subject. Does not solve the problem of bad scientists though, and unfortunately we have a lot of those. Doing paper reviews did really open my eyes here.

      Ironically, ethics is not scientific. :-)

      I don't agree on that. While the goals of specific ethics are something else, the way to get there are quite subject to Science. As an example, utilitarian ethics is quite scientific in its approach. It is also quite problematic in some regards, but for example you can prove scientifically that in a surveillance society (in any kind of totalitarian society, really) productivity drops massively as people are much more depressed and everybody is in fear most of the time and a lot of time is wasted on ritual. (Amazon's "The man in the high castle" shows that very nicely, BTW.) I use this as an example to explain to students why the standard argumentation of fascism does not actually work. Usually causes some lights to go off in some heads ;-) So one thing you can do is find that some ethics are actually not effective in this world because they are broken in the means they claim can achieve their goals.

      But you can even examine and get insights into the goals of a specific type of ethics by applying scientific analysis. Sure, you cannot justify the goal _itself_ scientifically, that is just not possible as Science is amoral. Science does not care whether you analyze, say, Hedonism or the very core principles of the Sith Lords. It will point out though that as the Sith believe in one master having one student and the student usually killing the master, they will eventually die out by attrition.

      There are conflicts we will have with us for a long time.

      We will. For your the GM foods example, it is more that the people do not trust the researchers than the research. And I agree on that. Ethically (that word again) and carefully done GM foods research that is result-open and benefits everybody, I have no problem with. But if [insert food multi here] looks for ways to get people hooked on their stuff or [insert poisons giant here] is looking for ways to be able to put even more dangerous poisons on the crops without their specific crops dying, then I have a huge problem with this. And the past shows that these companies cannot be trusted at all to respect the general good.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    21. Re:I want one... by Tom · · Score: 1

      Actually, no. First, any real scientist does understand the scientific process and what it can and cannot deliver.

      Absolutely. If you are a scientist or knowledgeable in the scientific process, you can easily spot obvious bad studies and judge if the approach of a study is sound even if you don't know the specific field. But you are still far from being able to decide the truth value of a hypothesis. You have to rely on the peer review process.

      (on ethics)

      I see that our definitions of the word differ. For me, ethics is more personal while you consider things that I would see in the field of politics or sociology into it.

      I want to add one more point: Ethics often follows practicability. Slavery was abolished around the time when it simply became impractical to have slaves. Neither the ancient romans nor the authors of the bible found any moral dilemma in slavery. Our own ethics are likewise subjective and a thousand years from now people will look in horror upon things that we don't even think require a discussion.

      But thanks for the book hint, that sounds very interesting and relevant for today with politics shifting right-wing again everywhere.

      For your the GM foods example, it is more that the people do not trust the researchers than the research.

      There certainly is a good part of that, yes. But in other fields we don't have that. Nuclear power, for example, was an area where many of the opponents to it understand the science very well, and trust the scientists. They just disagree with the final verdict and the judgement that the risk is manageable - and Tschernobyl proved them right. (and it doesn't matter that we can say "but in the west..." because if you have the tech then other countries will want it, too).

      It goes beyond the distrust. The fundamental question is who gets to decide which new things to discover and which technology to use. Scientists? Ethics commissions? The people?

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    22. Re:I want one... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Agree on your statement on Ethics. There are different ways to see it. As to Nuclear, Fucku(p)shima made the "but in the West" argument obsolete, because it does not get any more technologically advanced than Japan. If they cannot do it safely, nobody can and it is really not a tech problem.

      Anyways, it has been a while since somebody on /. gave me a good discussion, thanks!

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    23. Re:I want one... by Tom · · Score: 1

      As to Nuclear, Fucku(p)shima made the "but in the West" argument obsolete, because it does not get any more technologically advanced than Japan.

      Though the argument has been made that Fukushima proves that a western-built reactor won't blow up and spray radioactive clouds over an entire continent.

      Anyways, it has been a while since somebody on /. gave me a good discussion, thanks!

      Same to you. It has become rare in the last few years.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    24. Re:I want one... by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      consensus can be limiting because it naturally opposes new radical ideas. However, most radical new ideas are complete shit

      This is the problem, in a nutshell. E=MC**2 was "radical" idea. Simplistic, yet radical. Quantum Mechanics was a "Radical" idea. It still is goofy weird ... but ... for now ... it appears more or less correct. But I have no doubt as we further discover new and improved methods, this too will be replaced with something better.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  3. Cue the handwringing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    From the "free speech" advocates who go all fluttering concern when the idea of correcting false speech and alternative facts is broached.

    1. Re:Cue the handwringing by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Allowing me to add a feature that will automate fact-checking with a source I trust is one thing. Having Facebook, Google or Twitter secretly do it is another ball of worms.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    2. Re:Cue the handwringing by fish_in_the_c · · Score: 1

      Facebook, google and twitter as fed by Russian and Chines trolls.
      usually the real problem is establishing trust of the sources. Much of the divide we have in politics is because 'traditional' media has proved time and time again it entirely biased to a particular political and social agenda. Most alternative sources don't even try to hide their bias, so if you want to guess at the truth you need to read between the lines.

      --
      âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
    3. Re:Cue the handwringing by Voyager529 · · Score: 1

      From the "free speech" advocates who go all fluttering concern when the idea of correcting false speech and alternative facts is broached.

      'Making sure things are correct' isn't the problem. The concern is the implementation:

      1. send text to fact checking group.
      2. parse text as to whether it contains information requiring response.
      3. formulate response and decide whether it needs to be sent.
      4. actually send the response.
      5. (probably) keep copy of text for aggregate data mining.
      6 (probably) GOTO 1 until 2 = FALSE.

      This is literally the infrastructure required to correct 'wrongthink'. While sure, we might agree with the immediate implementation of pointing an anti-vaxxer to an actually-scientific study, let's involve a statement using 'male' and 'female' into the mix and let the tool try to figure out whether it's referring to a person's chosen gender identity or the biological sex of a pet bird...knowing that such a response will probably cause an issue with somebody, and if it doesn't, a lack of one eventually will.

      But really, the issue is the principle that one's private message threads are no longer private. Yes, at some level even nontechnical people know that Zuck keeps copies and will probably share them with the NSA with a 'pretty please', but that's very different from a system designed to read, parse, decide to respond, and then actually-respond to a message in real time. At best, it's inaccurate and as annoying as Clippy and Cortana. At worst, it's the next step in stifling free speech - the government may not be doing it, but the chilling effects will be instilled just the same.

    4. Re:Cue the handwringing by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem with the MSM is that it repeatedly sides with "narratives" (story telling) and not with just telling us what happened. It is the story telling (fibbing) that gets them into trouble.

      All one has to do is look at the two recent cases(Covington Catholic, Smollett), where the "narrative" that was being told didn't actually happen, and certainly not the way it was being reported initially in the MSM. In both cases the "narrative" was the story, not the actual events.

      People want to understand why "Fake News" is a thing need only look to these two events to see that it does, indeed happen. Both these "stories" were "fake".

      The MSM doesn't even try to be fair anymore. And because of that, a large portion of the population doesn't believe them any more. They are, themselves, to blame here. The difference between a Hannity and a Don Lemon is that Hannity has a clear agenda, and doesn't hide it behind "objective' narrative, that isn't true. That actually makes Hannity (or even Maddow) more reliable. Not because he isn't wrong, but rather because when he is wrong, because it can be blamed on his narrative. Don Lemon has a narrative he tries to hide (that he is objective) and that makes him less reliable largely because the narrative is false.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    5. Re:Cue the handwringing by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      Well, I don't think they are really wringing their hands at having those tools. The hand wringing I've seen has been over the big names deciding that THEY get to appoint themselves the arbiters of truth. I've not seen hand wringing over a person deciding to use Snopes as a fact checker, other than to counter with a fact checker of their own, or just pointing out that Snopes is lame front for the DNC.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    6. Re:Cue the handwringing by Voyager529 · · Score: 1

      'Making sure things are correct' isn't the problem.

      Indeed, that's why the thread I started was concerned with a different subject.

      Not whatever nonsense you tried to talk about. Seriously, I cannot go figure it out.

      The problem is with the people aghast at the idea of correcting false and misleading ideas to the point of absolute solipsism.

      I'll be happy to spell out the sequence for you:

      Article: 'Taiwanese chat-bot is enabling real-time fact checking in message groups'
      You: 'Inb4 the "muh first amendment" crowd who takes exception to having to deal with actual-facts'
      Me: 'The issue isn't the fact-checking, but the fact that such a technology is exactly the same as a wrongthink correction system'
      You: 'I can't figure out your nonsense'

      Fact checking is fine, but it's the existence of a system that allows an AI to interject when something is said which triggers a condition where such an interjection is required is concerning.

      But really, the issue is the principle that one's private message threads are no longer private.

      No, this is a public thread and here you are inserting whatever confused idea you think is important.

      Or, I made the assumption you read the damn summary which literally says: "The technology, created by Taiwanese developers, is a step ahead of most fact-checking apps, including versions offered in Brazil and Indonesia, which don't jump into conversations."
      I am not talking about this Slashdot thread. A 'conversation' a discussion between a defined group of individuals. The article mentions its use in Line, a BBM derivative like Whatsapp and Viber.

      At worst, it's the next step in stifling free speech - the government may not be doing it, but the chilling effects will be instilled just the same.

      Finally you get on topic.

      I've been on topic.

      By opposing the ability to criticize speech, you are chilling free speech yourself. Why do you get go be a hypocrite?

      Even if you didn't read the summary, the HEADLINE states "know it all ROBOT". The technology at the heart of this discussion is an incrementally advanced chat-bot that deals in fact checking. How is it 'opposing the ability to criticize speech' to say that there might be a reason to be concerned about group chats being uploaded to an unknown server, analyzed, and responded to by a chat-bot without a request from a user? Users can criticize each other's speech all the live long day and I am 100% in favor of it.

      There is nothing hypocritical about being pro-1A and anti-chatbot. I mean, I guess you could make the case if you do a whole lot of stretching to say that I'm against the 'code-as-speech' of the developers who create such a system, but I can be principally opposed to such a program without also calling for its forcible decommission. To say that such a stance is hypocritical means that one can't be pro-1A and also anti-DRM or anti-weapons-targeting-software. You could stretch a bit further and call the AI a 'person' in the legal sense, but I'll still give enough of the benefit of the doubt to assume you're not making that sort of suggestion; we're still many, many steps away from Data or HAL9000 or Frankie, where legal personhood might apply.

      I am against a computer system interjecting into a discussion between a defined set of individuals without the request of one or more of those individuals, primarily because such a system depends on its existence remaining in the right hands.Would you want flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers, or neo-nazis in charge of deciding which inputs trigger a response, and also deciding what those responses are?

    7. Re:Cue the handwringing by sarren1901 · · Score: 1

      That you think they are trying to minimize their bias is the gotcha. They have their agenda, their narrative, and anything that doesn't support it will get suppressed as much as possible.

      If you read enough different news sources, including fox and cnn, you pick up on their reporting bias quit easily. Certain channels will never even mention something happened because it doesn't fit their narrative.

      This is the main thing I hate about pretty much all news sources these days. My local news is usually the best bet because they don't tend to narrate much. They just tell me what happened.

      Also, is Hannity considered news? I always thought he was considered a political analysis for the right. The left has time slots for their people too.

  4. Re:The iPhone Effect on a society by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

    I actually do. Thankfully, those times aren't dead it. During those conversations today, it's not uncommon for a person pulling out their phone to be told, "Don't spoil it" or "If you're gonna cheat by looking it up, you need to put your pride on the line by staking a claim first". Either way, it prolongs the fun for the people enjoying it.

  5. Re:What are your science credentials, denialist? by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1

    Such a thing would kill Shanghai Bill, Kendall and yourself rather than attempt to educate you with facts that you ignore routinely. AI figures out who is educable quickly, Republican idiots are ignored. The system works.

    Don't be too hard on ShanghaiBill. I seldom agree with him, but when I do, it's because he says something that this kind of AI would not flag.

    --
    If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
  6. Re:The iPhone Effect on a society by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

    And this doesn’t address that scenario. It addresses the scenario where answer is known like is the Earth flat? Can it be abused? Certainly

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  7. Robotamation by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    Now angry RTFM neck-beards will be out of jobs.

  8. Next step: tie this app into Social Credit by Flexagon · · Score: 1

    From another recent post: "Social credit offenses range from not paying individual taxes or fines to spreading false information..." [emphasis added]. That would make for very swift "justice" indeed. Make a wonky claim in a "private" chat group while you're on the bus, and get thrown off immediately. No soup for you.

  9. Re:The iPhone Effect on a society by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    Right, but everybody pretending to believe in the flat Earth are really just challenging the fact that you would claim to know facts, but humans can't know facts directly. People have faith that the Earth is flat, and they have faith that the people who told them so saw some proof. But primarily they're simply told that it is true, and they believe it. But that isn't how they talk; tell them you believe in Flat Earth and they'll start in on some absurd holier-than-thou nonsense about science they don't actually understand and could never repeat themselves.

    Some answer is already known, sure; but is it actually know in the way presented, to the person presenting it? Almost never! Just repeating it more strongly, with a stronger feeling of Righteousness, doesn't make it more known to you, it actually makes it less known to you. The flat earther is a troll, sure, but they're not actually being less honest than the other person; both sides of the argument are being dishonest, one intentionally, the other accidentally, but the intentionally dishonest person is being honest about the part the other person is accidentally dishonest about. And enjoyment of that inversion appears to be the primary appeal of their trolling efforts.

    Except that guy with the steam rocket, he was just getting paid to say it. And said so all along.

  10. Re:The iPhone Effect on a society by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    I actually meant "people have Faith that the Earth is round," the Flat Earthers only have Faith that idiots will lie about what they personally can prove.

  11. Because this can NEVER be hacked by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    What a crock of sh*t. (As a side note, why does sh*t come in crocks?)

    1. Re:Because this can NEVER be hacked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The "chamber pot' is an ancient device, pre-greek. It's a, generally ceramic, bowl that, before plumbing, you pissed in rather than go outside at night. Shitting in the chamber pot was socially unacceptable, except for children with diarrhea. Hence the term "crock of shit".

  12. Re:"Facts" ... who watches the watchmen? by Anubis+IV · · Score: 2

    That is all there is. Sorry.
    Only usefulness. No absolute truth(TM).

    I love it when people declare as an absolutism that there's no such thing as absolute truth. Rarely do you see anyone contradict themselves in so few words.

  13. Awesome by Locke2005 · · Score: 3, Funny

    What happens when you send it a continuous stream of Trump's tweets and speeches?

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:Awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That was probably its 'false' training set.

  14. "Facts" by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

    Any chance this bot is sarcasm-impaired?

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
  15. Re:"Facts" ... who watches the watchmen? by gweihir · · Score: 1

    To be fair, it requires some real insight to understand where they fail. That is a rare quality in the human race.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  16. Re: Trump can't catch Obama by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    Of course my bias is actual reality. So there is that.

    --
    Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  17. If you doubt there are facts by presidenteloco · · Score: 1

    and maintain it's all just biased opinion and faith,
    please feel free to jump off the nearest cliff.
    I caution you against this.
    My unsubstantiated faith-based opinion (just as good or bad as anyone else's about anything)
    is that gravity will accelerate you rapidly toward the surface below and that you will die from the sudden deceleration after that.
    But what do I know?

    Seriously though, it's getting to where I refuse to have an extended conversation about a serious topic with anyone who cannot demonstrate basic epistemic soundness in their thinking. It's just a waste of words and time.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
  18. "I always lie in my texts"... by mspring · · Score: 1

    should sufficiently confuse the bot (Liar paradox).

  19. this sums it up nicely by v1 · · Score: 1

    All sorts of surprises await the fools that buy lie-detecting robots! https://i.pinimg.com/originals...

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
  20. Re: Trump can't catch Obama by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You did keep your insurance. Your insurance company changed your plan, like they do every year. Employers change benefit providers all the damned time, and every year the plans change. Nobody, _nobody_, sincerely took what Obama said to mean your current insurance plan would be set in stone by ACA legislation, and was harmed by that not being the case.

    Vs. El Paso being one of the most dangerous cities in America before a wall was built, and the situation on the border being an emergency. People drive to the border with guns to "protect" it because of these lies.

    Trump's lies cannot even be compared to any previously sitting U.S. president, not hopey changey keep your insurance, not wmd mission accomplished, not I did not inhale sexual relations, not I am not a crook, nothing is comparable to Trump's lies!

  21. Re: Trump can't catch Obama by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let's review: Lies about what Obama said due to bias. Convicts a false and mistaken phrasing due to bias. Pretends outrage when Trump is literally quoted and downplays lies.

    Called on bias.

    Posts link to video where Obama did not use the words quoted.

    Yep, your bias has detached you from reality.

    Or did you want Obama to pass a law to force your plan to remain in effect forever?

  22. argumentum ab auctoritate by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    when they get told that "scientific consensus" is a euphemism for argumentum ad popolum.

    It isn't. It is a euphemism for "argumentum ab auctoritate" i.e. appeal to authority. The point is not that lots of people believe it but that experts in the relevant field (who are presumed to know the truth) believe it.

  23. Re: Trump can't catch Obama by sarren1901 · · Score: 1

    He is not saying Trump doesn't lie. That was never said. He said Trump lies about stuff that really doesn't matter and has basically zero effect on my life or people I know.

    Obama really did say we could keep our doctor. Clearly that was a bunch of bullshit and it affected a lot of people that really liked their doctor. That may not matter to you and it would not of personally mattered much to me. I rarely go and don't have much of any kind of relationship with my doctor.

    Older folks on the other hand that see their doctor monthly or more were greatly affected by not getting to see their same doctor.

    Oh and since we are talking about Obama and his super majority blue Congress. Why didn't those fuckers give us government health care single payer in 2010 when they clearly were able to do ANYTHING? If the Democrats love us so fucking much why didn't they just DO IT? They had the vote and that's all they did with it. Copied a Republican health care plan to shackle us with insurance.

    It's all about the money and they fucked us. Then Trump and the Republicans fucked us with that tax law. The shit just keeps getting better and it doesn't matter which bunch of crooks is in charge.

  24. I feel for them by nospam007 · · Score: 2

    I'm married to such a bot.

  25. interesting application by Tom · · Score: 1

    This is actually a very, very interesting application for AI.

    I don't want it to judge. But I would love to have a Firefox plugin that scans texts and adds comments. So the next time someone posts "vaccines cause autism", there'll be a small symbol and you can click it to expand to a short summary of facts. Just the facts, e.g. "99% of scientific studies deny this claim, on the Internet the opinion is largely found on social media, 3 of its main proponents were sentenced in trials about the question, found to be lying". Something like that.

    There are controversial topics and I wouldn't want the AI to decide what's true. But it could help greatly in doing background research and presenting a summary.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
  26. Re: Trump can't catch Obama by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

    "Older folks on the other hand that see their doctor monthly or more were greatly affected by not getting to see their same doctor."

    Curious what stopped them seeing their doctor as usual?

    Looking at the video they didn't explain anything and in the comments the only clear complaint was a two month old comment by someone saying their deductible had doubled - which sounds like something that Trump caused. https://www.cbpp.org/sabotage-...

  27. Re: Trump can't catch Obama by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

    That's *Archangel Michael's* video.