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Has the Great 'Moonrush' Begun? (thespacereview.com)

This week The Space Review published an essay by retired aerospace engineer Gerald Black, who worked in the aerospace industry for over 40 years and tested various rocket engines, including the ascent stage engine of the Apollo lunar module.

"The Moonrush is now on," he argues "fueled by entrepreneurs dreaming of profits from Earth's nearest neighbor." Leading the Moonrush are a bunch of private companies developing small lunar landers and rovers to explore the Moon. On February 21, the first mission of the Moonrush embarked aboard a Falcon 9 rocket.

The Beresheet lunar lander built by Israel's SpaceIL was launched as a secondary payload, sharing the ride with the Indonesian communications satellite PSN-6. After reaching geostationary transfer orbit, Beresheet and the communications satellite separated from the Falcon 9 launcher. The communications satellite will propel itself to geostationary Earth orbit. Meanwhile, Beresheet is slowly raising its orbit. In early April the spacecraft will enter lunar orbit, then land on the Moon. Israel Aerospace Industries, the company that built the lander for SpaceIL, announced plans in January to partner with the German company OHB to offer a commercial lunar payload delivery service to the European Space Agency.

Black also notes that while Google never awarded its $20 million Lunar X grand prize, many teams are still active, including Astrobotic Technology, Moon Express, ispace inc., TeamIndus and PTScientists -- and that NASA will be awarding $2.6 billion in commercial moon exploration contracts over the next decade under its Commercial Lunar Payload Services program. The first mission under this program could be launched as soon as late this year... Blue Origin is developing a much larger lunar lander called Blue Moon that can land several metric tons of cargo on the Moon. And the German companies OHB and MT Aerospace have tapped Blue Origin's New Glenn rocket and Blue Moon lander to ferry a payload to the Moon in 2023.
Around-the-moon tourism could begin as soon as 2023, Black writes, while Bigelow Aerospace's CEO "is dreaming about establishing facilities on the lunar surface that could host tourists and others." And finally, landers and rovers will soon confirm whether there's accessible water hiding in the moon's perpetually dark craters -- and will hunt for other valuable resources. Rovers that include sample analysis laboratories like the one aboard the Curiosity rover on Mars will provide details about the constituents of the lunar rocks and soil. Deposits of gold, platinum group metals, and rare earth metals are likely to be found. Especially promising in this regard are the numerous impact craters on the Moon. High concentrations of precious metals have been found in craters where asteroids impacted the Earth.

Riches are there to be had, and mining may well become a major industry on the Moon.

143 comments

  1. how to become a moon millionaire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    start as a billionaire
    there is no profit to be made on the Moon
    get real space nutters

    1. Re: how to become a moon millionaire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We all must fly to space and use the blockchain to pay for it, sorry about your ignorance!

      We will go to space, we will have anime heaven, we will have bitcoins, and we will use hosts files!

    2. Re: how to become a moon millionaire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about don't promote every stupid idea that floats across your desk?

    3. Re:how to become a moon millionaire by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      For those that downvoted or left demoting comments, the expression was based on Donald Douglas (I think) of how he became a millionaire with his company Douglas Aircraft, "you have to spend 100 million." Douglas bought out by McDonnell in 1960s, then by Boeing in 1990s. We see this happening again, Musk and Bezos spending billions (some of this includes money from NASA) and maybe earn a few million.

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
  2. So whose stock do I buy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No hot picks? Cringely blows.

  3. Beh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I have heard these predictions a few times in the past 60 years. Nothing ever happened, and since the laws of physics have not changed, nothing will happen.

    1. Re: Beh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don'tcha think if there was something to be had in the moon nasa would have sent the Mars rovers there? Dumbasses

    2. Re:Beh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      "Lasers / Computers / Internet."

      are all about information

      do you see that maybe going to the moon is maybe different

      "shit is all still impossible today"

      ah do you mean like the concorde

      we have the internet today

      so why can't we fly across the atlantic at mach 2.5 like grandad used to

      fucking idiot

    3. Re:Beh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lasers are used to transmit information in fiber optics
      lasers are used to read data on optical media
      occasionally they are used for their capacity to deliver great amounts of energy

      either way progress in lasers has precisely nothing to do with being able to mine the moon

      or flying a concorde

      but you space nutters cling to 1960s "big energy big materials" fantasies

      sorry

      those are as dead as bell bottom pants and patchoulli

    4. Re:Beh by Immerman · · Score: 1

      No, they're all about physics and engineering. When we first went to the moon we did the calculations on slide rules, and could only send large quantities of data as physical documents.

      Electric cars were invented long before gasoline cars - but were abandoned once the internal combustion engine was invented, because we didn't have the battery technology to begin compete with gasoline.

      We can't fly across the Atlantic at supersonic speeds because there's not enough of a business case to build and maintain supersonic aircraft just for trans-ocean flights, and nobody wants the noise pollution from using them for continental flights

      We haven't gone back to the moon in any serious way, because the moon has nothing to offer until we're ready to move into space in a substantial way - which we haven't had the technology to do in a cost-appealing way. But we have been mapping it's resources in detail from orbit, against the day that we're ready. And we now have reusable rockets that are dropping the price of getting into space dramatically, with further dramatic improvements in cost and capacity looking likely within the next few years. The enabling technology is finally reaching the point where establishing real infrastructure in space is economically viable.

      We're probably not quite there yet, but it's looking inevitable that we will get there within the next few decades, and so ambitious engineers are working hard to be ready, and ambitious businessmen are beginning to invest in being able to establish a first-mover advantage when the time is right. Much as the first European colonies in America weren't particularly profitable at first, but soon became very lucrative for early investors.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    5. Re: Beh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do lasers have nothing to do with mining the moon? Using a laser to vaporize Rick and then analyze it with a spectrometer would be the expected way for rovers or astronauts to prospect for minerals. LIDAR could be used for mapping and navigation. Beyond that, I would expect lasers to be useful in many other aspects of mining.

    6. Re: Beh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, I love autocorrect. Poor Rick!

  4. MOON GOLD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it even remotely feasible to send normal-ass moon rocks back to earth for less than $1300/ounce including overhead, let alone gold which would have to be mined/purified/whatever first?

    1. Re: MOON GOLD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. And companies that waste NASAs time and money on such projects don't get a second chance.

    2. Re:MOON GOLD by Powercntrl · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Is it even remotely feasible to send normal-ass moon rocks back to earth for less than $1300/ounce including overhead, let alone gold which would have to be mined/purified/whatever first?

      No. But that doesn't matter because investors are fucking stupid. This is what happens when all the wealth is concentrated at the top - the only way for the already-rich to get richer is to scam money out of other rich people. The rest of us just get to sit here thinking "Man, I wish I had the money to scam other rich people with some bullshit scheme."

      1. Run ads/press releases about your great new moon venture biz.
      2. ???
      3. Profit!

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    3. Re:MOON GOLD by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Is it even remotely feasible to send normal-ass moon rocks back to earth

      No ... and that is why you do NOT bring it back to earth. It is worth far more in space.

      Price of a kg of iron on earth: $4.

      Price of a kg of iron at GEO: $12,000

    4. Re: MOON GOLD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      NASA is full of shitty smelly parasites hindu-chimps. Those parasites under oblivious supervision of stupid NASA smuggle top secret american space secrets back to shitty hindustan.
      That's why NASA sucks so much now.

    5. Re:MOON GOLD by religionofpeas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Price of a kg of iron at GEO: $12,000

      Value of a kg of iron at GEO: $0.00

    6. Re:MOON GOLD by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Because people who invest billions in long term projects don’t have the insight about future tech that some random guy on the Internet has.

    7. Re:MOON GOLD by Immerman · · Score: 2

      Right - because there's not currently much to do with raw iron in orbit. And why would there be, when it costs $12,000/kg?

      But, if lunar iron can be delivered at $10-$100/kg, then it starts being valuable for building orbital structures and interplanetary ships.

      And there's no particular reason that it would be particularly expensive to get lunar resources to orbit, or to Earth for that matter. After all, you don't need any rockets or rocket fuel - without an atmosphere you can use a rail gun, sling, or various other moon-mounted launch systems to get stuff into Earth orbit, or launch a bit faster and send it all the way to Earth - you just need to add a heat shield and parachutes, or some other landing system, for the final approach.

      It's getting to that point that's going to be expensive, without a whole lot of immediate payoff. But those who lead the way will have an immense first-mover advantage as things accelerate from there. The Americas were colonized by European powers in order to profit Europe, but even before we won our independence, most of the wealth produced in America was staying here, and the canny businessmen who invested here made money hand over fist.

      Space probably isn't going to have quite the same appeal for a long time, and may never have much to appeal to the common man (other than a place to escape from whatever insanity is taking place on Earth). But for a certain brand of skilled and ambitious dreamer it offers unlimited wealth and room for expansion. A chance to build businesses and societies from the ground up, in an environment that can sustain the fantasy of unlimited growth for centuries or millenia to come, while Earth is already beginning to collapse under the strain.

      And Earth benefits, at a minimum, from unlimited mineral resources without an environmental mining cost, and the technology for building mostly-closed ecosystems, extremely efficient recycling, and all the other such things are are far, far more valuable to sustainable space colonies than planet-side living, but will be extremely valuable as we struggle to adapt to an ecosystem collapsing under the weight of our demands.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    8. Re:MOON GOLD by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      But, if lunar iron can be delivered at $10-$100/kg, then it starts being valuable for building orbital structures and interplanetary ships.

      There's a big difference between a piece of raw iron and an interplanetary ship. The difference is about the size of an industrial base, plus pretty much every other element of the periodic table.

      And there's no particular reason that it would be particularly expensive to get lunar resources to orbit, or to Earth for that matter. After all, you don't need any rockets or rocket fuel - without an atmosphere you can use a rail gun, sling, or various other moon-mounted launch systems to get stuff into Earth orbit,

      No, if you launch something from the Moon, it'll end up in a very elongated and unstable Earth-Lunar orbit, and probably smash into the Moon or Earth after some time. If you want to bring it into an Earth orbit you'll need thrusters to circularize.

      you just need to add a heat shield and parachutes

      You need an aerodynamically stable shape if you intend to fly through Earth atmosphere at hypersonic speed, and payload size will have to be small compared to shield/parachutes, similar to what current Dragon capsule looks like.

      unlimited mineral resources without an environmental mining cost

      The reason that we have large environmental cost is because of things like dumping large amounts of contaminated waste water in a river or lake. On the Moon, there's not a lot of water, so you would have to focus on extraction techniques that don't use water, or only use it sparingly. But if you can do that, you could also put your plant in the middle of the Nevada desert, and do the same thing there.

    9. Re:MOON GOLD by badboy_tw2002 · · Score: 1

      Think about how much material/resources its required to build a space ship from raw lumps of iron. All the processing, all the tooling, etc etc etc. Now think about the cost of moving all the infrastructure of the entire supply chain for that material into orbit, and doing everything without gravity. Now factor in the cost of building on earth, lifting the partial products of the "thing" you actually want to build, and assembling in orbit, and compare that to building the infrastructure in space before you get one piece of your "thing" built.

      Unless everyone suddenly gets cool with something equivalent of the defense budget going to space factories, that ain't happening.

    10. Re:MOON GOLD by Immerman · · Score: 1

      >No, if you launch something from the Moon, it'll end up in a very elongated and unstable Earth-Lunar orbit

      It'll almost certainly be an Earth orbit, there's no benefit to putting it in a high enough orbit that it can orbit both (unless it's destined for one of the L-points I suppose), and doing so would require those rockets anyway. And the moon isn't massive enough to make much difference anyway, other than as a destabilizing influence.

      Without modification it will be in an orbit that intersects the moon orbit, probably a highly elliptical Hohmann transfer orbit with an apogee at lunar orbit distance, and a perigee near the destination orbit. From there, circularizing the orbit as desired takes a miniscule fraction of the delta-v necessary to reach orbit in the first place, and can be done with much smaller, weaker engines than the initial launch, since you don't have to overcome surface gravity, and won't have to worry about hitting the moon for many, many orbits (unless you specifically launched it on a resonant orbit that will hit the moon sometime soon)

      Meanwhile, for sending raw materials to Earth - yes, you probably want an aerodynamically stable shape - but that's no big deal, one shape is much the same as another when casting ingots. And there's not even any specific need for parachutes, those are there to allow passengers and scientific equipment to survive landing. If an ingot breaks or flattens on impact - so what? You were going to melt it down anyway. As long as it's hitting in the middle of nowhere, impact isn't a big deal. Just pick a size that lets aerobraking slow down enough to suite you, and bombs away. An active control system might be nice to keep it on target, but there's no reason that couldn't detach at the last moment and land separately, or just be inexpensive enough that destroying it doesn't matter.

      >you could also put your plant in the middle of the Nevada desert, and do the same thing there.
      Absolutely - all the more reason to learn to do it on the moon. Because we're clearly not going to do it on Earth unless the cost is cheaper than the current disaster. We could add severe environmental impact taxes or regulations to make current it unattractive, but not until we actually have another mature technology ready to take over for the current one.

      Though there's still the possibility of moon-mining/refining producing lots of toxic waste that just isn't a problem on the moon, which has no air, water, or life to transport it out of your trash heap.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    11. Re:MOON GOLD by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Because we're clearly not going to do it on Earth unless the cost is cheaper than the current disaster

      If cost is the reason for dirty mining, how do you figure we will ever do it on the Moon, where cost is going to be several orders of magnitude more ?

    12. Re:MOON GOLD by Immerman · · Score: 1

      The point is rather that you *won't* be transporting all that infrastructure into space - just enough to be able to jump-start on building the rest. Presumably the vast majority of "high tech" materials and components would continue being produced on Earth, but if you can make it out of iron or aluminum with only limited working, you can build it in space. And that probably covers at least 95% of the mass of most equipment, if not far more.

      There's already been some really interesting developments in 3D printing bulk metals with space in mind. Admittedly cast iron isn't the strongest building material - but it's easy to work with, and if you have to make your first generation of heavy equipment considerably more massive than otherwise necessary, so what? There's plenty of local raw materials to work with, and it's not like it needs to support it's own weight.

      And once you've got the heavy equipment necessary to make worked iron and steel components, then the components for the second-generation and later factories don't have to deal with the limitations of cast metal anymore. And you can always recycle the original factories once more sophisticated factories render it useless.

      And of course, once you're building in orbit, you can build things that would collapse under their own weight on Earth. Factories, habitats, even interplanetary spaceships. Something like the SpaceX Starliner for example is massively overbuilt for traveling between planets - you could use the same mass of materials to make something far more spacious in orbit, and only use the sturdy high-acceleration rockets as "long-boats" for getting to and from a planet's surface.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    13. Re:MOON GOLD by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Because even if the cost of extraction and refining is orders of magnitude more expensive than mining on Earth (several orders seems unlikely), it's still cheaper once you include the shipping costs to the moon or orbit. At least once you get a good system worked out. It's that early research that's especially expensive, which is why it's mostly governments and magacorporations currently looking to get involved.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  5. Disaster movie waiting to happen? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    So how long before the first Poseidon Adventure/The Martian-style film featuring moon tourists getting stranded...

  6. Rush to What? by Kunedog · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Deposits of gold, platinum group metals, and rare earth metals are likely to be found.

    So? A fact I've always heard is that going to the moon is so expensive, that even if there were endless pure gold nuggets (or diamonds?) littering the surface, then it simply isn't worth the cost to go get them. Has that cost/benefit analysis changed much, if at all?

    Tourism is another valid angle, but there's much more to see (much more quickly and safely) in LEO and that hasn't taken off either.

    1. Re:Rush to What? by gweihir · · Score: 2

      There is also the little problem that if this stuff could be brought back cheaper than mining it on Earth, the prices would just drop, killing the profits again. The thing is, anything mined on the moon will only be useful for using it on the Moon or in space. We are not quite there yet to be doing that. Maybe in 20...50 years.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:Rush to What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's math it out.

      SpaceX currently charges $62 million to launch 50k lb satellites.

      So we have a rough $$$ to lb ratio.

      A lb of gold runs around $16k.

      $16k x 50k = $800 million. So there is at least an order of magnitude at play...

      All that is ignoring the fact that lifting something out of the Moon's gravity well is 5x easier then getting out of Earth's.

    3. Re:Rush to What? by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's old, fossil thinking right there. You don't bring it back to Earth now, today, at current launch prices! No way. The point is, you dig it up now, put your name on it, and put shares on a blockchain. That way you can get it onto a market right now, today. And worry about bringing it back in few hundred years, when we need it, and transportation costs are lower.

      This is a whole new market, it won't compete with metals that are here on Earth; those need to be used now, before they oxidize, if they were already dug up and processed. This is about building your family's legacy. This is about your personal immortality, as ensured by that same family legacy. You can't buy that with an Earthly investment.

      Man, that was good, I wish I had some snake oil to sell at the end of that one.

    4. Re:Rush to What? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      The thing is, anything mined on the moon will only be useful for using it on the Moon or in space.

      Which is exactly how any such resources will be used.

      The first 'product' from the Moon will be testing of metals refining and element separation that we will be using in more distant places. After that will come uses like supporting structures for huge solar arrays - anything that takes a lot of metal and would be prohibitively expensive to lift from Earth.

    5. Re:Rush to What? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      If it was diamonds that would be a game-changer for the space race, because the industrial uses of diamonds are highly constrained by price and availability.

      Without the speculative market where people keep sacks of gold in a safe in case the economy collapses, gold would currently have an industrial value of about $350. So it would have to be economical at that price to make it worth investing in something that might crash the market price. But it is a useful metal that would be in much more widespread use if there was greater supply. Gold could be the copper of the future!

    6. Re:Rush to What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Diamonds can be manufactured at relatively low cost. We also have huge supplies of them monopolized by DeBeers.

    7. Re:Rush to What? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Hehehehe....

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    8. Re:Rush to What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As gold is heavy and non toxic I wonder how well it would work in bullets and anti-tank shells and the like.

    9. Re:Rush to What? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Whatever the many different aliens left abandoned on the moon?

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    10. Re:Rush to What? by jpaine619 · · Score: 1

      As gold is heavy and non toxic I wonder how well it would work in bullets and anti-tank shells and the like.

      Uh... Not at all? You're aware that gold is super soft right?

    11. Re:Rush to What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lead is also super soft compared to the jacket, dummy.

    12. Re:Rush to What? by religionofpeas · · Score: 2

      Problem with that scenario is you still need an end product that is profitable. There is no market for huge solar arrays in space.

    13. Re:Rush to What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But why even go there, you could just sell a block chain with precious metals "in it", mined from the asteroid belt or from another system - doesn't matter. You just point that it will be brought back to Earth when it is economically viable in the future.

    14. Re:Rush to What? by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Lead is also super soft compared to the jacket, dummy.

      Depleted uranium is about as dense as gold, is much harder, and also burns.

    15. Re:Rush to What? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      There is O3, which could be useful for fusion if we ever get that working.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    16. Re:Rush to What? by jythie · · Score: 1

      This is why it is a shame we can only mod to +5. I actually do expect some of these companies to start including 'blockchain' in their space projects.

    17. Re:Rush to What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How would there be ozone on the moon? And what does that have to do with fusion?

    18. Re:Rush to What? by crunchygranola · · Score: 1

      If it was diamonds that would be a game-changer for the space race, because the industrial uses of diamonds are highly constrained by price and availability.

      No they aren't. Diamond edged tools are cheap and widely available. Often tungsten carbide (or other super-hard ceramics) is better though since they can take higher temperatures and are not subject to oxidation.

      Industrial uses of diamonds have not been "highly constrained" by prices for about 60 years when synthetic diamonds replaced natural diamonds for industrial uses because making them was cheaper than mining them. Natural diamonds used industrially today are simply byproducts of gem diamond mining operations. And before you suggest that maybe they could profitably mine gem diamonds on the Moon you should be made aware that gem diamonds are cheaper to make synthetically than mining here on Earth and this has been true for 20 years now.

      You haven't seen synthetic diamonds swamping the diamond market so far simply because the jeweler supply chain set up nearly a century ago by De Beers bans synthetics, unless they have been conform to the same cartel pricing as all other diamond producers. And not having a sales system of their own, the synthetic diamond makers have complied (plus it gives them huge margins, even if it limits their sales).

      But De Beers got out of the cartel years ago (but it still the cartel continues to operate in an informal cooperative basis, the supply chain still exists) and last year began direct sales of synthetic diamonds undercutting the cartel it originally set up. I suspect more diamond makers are going to start direct sales in the future. The natural diamond mining industry will survive if it continues to be able to convince women that men don't love them unless they buy them natural diamonds. This marketeer invented "tradition" which did not exist before the 1930s may no survive the present century.

      And then there is the little matter of their being no diamonds on the Moon. Their are suitable materials or processes to have made any.

      --
      Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
    19. Re:Rush to What? by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      Fusion reactors should use hydrogen for fuel as it's cheap and plentiful. Why invest $ trillions on something that uses crazy expensive fuel that will quickly run out? Nuclear power costs more than renewable power so Fusion is already dead.

    20. Re: Rush to What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We went to the moon before, and there was no profit in it. We keep sending droids to Mars, and there's no profit in that. The Hubble generates images, but has not generated any cash dividends that I'm aware of.

      Profits aren't generated by exploiting resources. Resources are worthless without a sucker to buy them. Profits are generated by exploiting *people*. If that's what you wanna build our future on then good luck with that, grasshopper.

    21. Re: Rush to What? by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Profits are generated by exploiting *people*. If that's what you wanna build our future on then good luck with that, grasshopper.

      Wrong, grasshopper. Profits are generated by creating value. There's a little bit of value in sending probes to look at Mars. Just enough to spend a few billion/decade on it. There was military value for the Apollo program.

      If you want to spend 100-1000 times as much, you better come up with a good value proposal.

    22. Re:Rush to What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's 3He, and it's going to be useless for at least 50 years. It's not even a first-generation fusion fuel, so we have to be doing fusion for quite a while before we can use it. Unironically babbling about lunar helium is one of the more obvious signs of being a space nutter.

    23. Re:Rush to What? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      There is no market for huge solar arrays in space.

      What? Yes, of course there is. There is a market for energy, and putting solar arrays in space makes them more efficient. The power can be broadcast back to inexpensive microwave rectenna arrays here on the planet. The transmission antennas on the power satellites won't be physically capable of focusing to narrow points, which addresses the issue of whether they will cook birds, or can be used to cook cities. (Plus, the major superpowers all have satellite-killing equipment.)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    24. Re:Rush to What? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      But first, you need to stake your claim. And then defend it against claim-jumpers.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    25. Re:Rush to What? by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      By that logic, it would never make sense to dig a mine.

      There is large capital expenditures in setting up the system to retrieve the resources. Putting a refining and launching facility on the moon would be a major expenditure. But then, raking up the loot strewn about and lobbing it at Earth would be cheap. Basing the analysis on the launch cost per unit weight and cost of the materials is naive.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    26. Re:Rush to What? by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      There is a market for energy, and putting solar arrays in space makes them more efficient.

      Yes, but we still have plenty of open space here on Earth, and it's much cheaper to put 2 panels on the ground than 1 panel in orbit.

    27. Re:Rush to What? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Platinum and friends would probably be a better bet for something of value from the Moon. Just like gold, it's very doubtful to just be laying around. Other then meteorites, there isn't much in the way of geological processes to concentrate it.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    28. Re:Rush to What? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      While all your points are good, you're probably wrong about diamonds on the Moon. They're pretty common in the universe and have been found in meteorites, might even be some big enough to see with the naked eye if you squint. Like most minerals on the Moon, they are not going to be concentrated or even vaguely worth doing something with.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    29. Re:Rush to What? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Do you know how unconcentrated He3 is on the Moon. Better off scoop mining at Saturn or just making it here, if we ever get good enough at fusion to fuse He3.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  7. Not even! The Moon is still vaporware. by fustakrakich · · Score: 0

    But I hope they dig out the back side first. Who wants to look at a bunch of strip mines?

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:Not even! The Moon is still vaporware. by mykepredko · · Score: 1

      How big do you think a strip mine on the moon would have to be for you to see it on a telescope? What about the naked eye?

      You're talking about an excavation 100 or so miles on a side...

    2. Re:Not even! The Moon is still vaporware. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Some humans have 20/20 vision. Some humans have 20/200 vision. Some humans have 20/10 vision. Some humans have much better vision than that.

      If you do a strip mine on the front side, people will see it. Unaided. Also: contrast, and shadows. Remember, the Sun is reflecting directly, without having been attenuated by an atmosphere. That totally changes the visibility distance calculations.

    3. Re:Not even! The Moon is still vaporware. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck? You are aware it's 252,000+ miles away, right? How big of a pit do you think you'd need to dig for it to be visible to the naked eye? Hint: We've never built a mine even CLOSE to that size here on Earth.

    4. Re:Not even! The Moon is still vaporware. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      20/10 is the best human vision acuity ever recorded. That's only twice the linear resolution of someone with 20/20 vision, and it's not magic. After my laser surgery I got up to 20/15 which was remarkable, but only magical in comparison to my previous poor eyesight. You are either vastly underestimating the size of and distance to the moon, or overestimating the size of any imaginable mining operation. The largest mines on Earth are a few miles across - seeing something like that from this distance would require a sizable telescope.

    5. Re:Not even! The Moon is still vaporware. by crunchygranola · · Score: 1

      Some humans have 20/20 vision. Some humans have 20/200 vision. Some humans have 20/10 vision. Some humans have much better vision than that.

      If you do a strip mine on the front side, people will see it. Unaided. Also: contrast, and shadows. Remember, the Sun is reflecting directly, without having been attenuated by an atmosphere. That totally changes the visibility distance calculations.

      The limit of the size of a lunar feature detectable by people with really good vision is about 100 km -- the size of Copernicus crater. It is an an actual feature on the Moon and it is in fact the limit of what can be seen. This is very well established. Kepler crater, at half this is invisible to the naked eye. Only people using telescopes can see it (binoculars are just two small telescopes mounted together).

      The largest surface mine on Earth is the Hull–Rust–Mahoning Open Pit Iron Mine in Hibbing, Minnesota about 5 km in its largest dimension.

      --
      Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
    6. Re:Not even! The Moon is still vaporware. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, I'm sure they'll strip mine it in an artistic way, like perhaps an arrow bent into a smile shape.

  8. Of course every country is rushing to the moon by SYSS+Mouse · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As it is the second step of winning the science race. #civilization6

  9. "Moonrush" is at least a decade away... by mykepredko · · Score: 1

    It's great that a number of companies are reaching out to the moon and organizations like NASA is paying for it but until there is some way to cheaply return materials, the "moonrush" will be a flurry of explorers and then nothing.

    The moon gets a lot more exciting when we get cheap titanium and aluminum down to Earth and power from solar cells from the moon's crust. Oh, and maybe in 10 years or so we'll know what to do with He3.

    1. Re:"Moonrush" is at least a decade away... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I don't think that getting anything from the Moon to Earth will be worthwhile anytime soon. Use it there or in space is something else. And we will need to be doing that, because getting stuff from Earth to the moon is extremely expensive and will likely remain so for quite a while.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:"Moonrush" is at least a decade away... by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Just push it down, and Earth will pay to catch it for you.

      Didn't you ever read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress?!?!

    3. Re:"Moonrush" is at least a decade away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just push it down, and Earth will pay to catch it for you.

      Didn't you ever read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress?!?!

      I don't think they have. I read the entire thread and there was not a single mention of a mass driver.

      A mass driver on the moon could send about any solid material to Earth at a very low cost.

      I wonder how small/light a mass driver that would work in a vacuum could be made today.

    4. Re:"Moonrush" is at least a decade away... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      About 3.4 km/sec is the engineering challenge. 2.4 moon's escape velocity 1 moon's orbital velocity. Don't need all of it, but not just a little 'mass driver' (9 iron).

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:"Moonrush" is at least a decade away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fusion of is 30 years away, not 10.

    6. Re:"Moonrush" is at least a decade away... by crunchygranola · · Score: 1

      The moon gets a lot more exciting when we get cheap titanium and aluminum down to Earth and power from solar cells from the moon's crust. Oh, and maybe in 10 years or so we'll know what to do with He3.

      The spot market price for aluminum goes as low as $0.80/lb right now. Titanium costs $25/lb. Even if stacks of aluminum and titanium ingots were sitting on the Moon right now it would never be profitable to ship them back to Earth.

      The market for He-3 is tiny, several millions dollars a year, used as a neutron detector. It is an order of magnitude harder to use He-3 as a fusion fuel than deuterium-tritium which has no prospect of ever being a commercially viable source of electricity due to the high capital cost, even if you believe all of Lockheed-Martin's press releases.

      Your best shot of making money for anything on the Moon is collecting souvenir Moon rocks and selling them for $$ on a gram basis. Scientific researchers would buy them too.

      --
      Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
    7. Re:"Moonrush" is at least a decade away... by Megane · · Score: 1

      Cheap aluminum from the moon? Do you know that aluminum is one of the most common elements on the earth? The only expensive part is smelting it into a pure metal, since it loves to oxidize so much. Even if you did it on the moon (with that wonderful sunlight 15 days out of each month), the cost to bring it back would be a deal-breaker. Just properly recycle your cans, that's a much more efficient way to get aluminum. And power from solar cells? Sure, buddy, just as soon as we set up that high-voltage power transmission wire all the way to the moon.

      But you mentioned 3He (and wrote it incorrectly too), which is one of the more obvious signs of being a space nutter. We aren't anywhere near commercial fusion power yet, and it's not a first-generation fusion fuel. It's more economical to extract uranium from seawater. There's literally nothing else you can do with it, unless you want to monopolize the party balloon industry.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    8. Re:"Moonrush" is at least a decade away... by dryeo · · Score: 1

      I wonder how the various nations on the Earth will feel about a mass driver on the Moon.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    9. Re:"Moonrush" is at least a decade away... by dryeo · · Score: 1

      There's other uses for 3He, neutron detectors, certain types of powerful magnets for example. 3He is also not that hard to make if needed, irradiate some water and wait.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    10. Re:"Moonrush" is at least a decade away... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's literally nothing else you can do with it, unless you want to monopolize the party balloon industry.

      Buy our helium, it is 25% lighter!

  10. Rush to *Gov. Moonbeam* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So? A fact I've always heard is that going to the moon is so expensive, that even if there were endless pure gold nuggets (or diamonds?) littering the surface, then it simply isn't worth the cost to go get them. Has that cost/benefit analysis changed much, if at all?

    It is not about mineral deposits or tourism. All those can be considered as auxiliary inxomw, at best.

    The one main thing that can make this worthwhile is Gov. Moonbeam !

    Yep, that famous Gov. Moonbeam gonna make this tremendous success.

  11. Maybe you should update your knowledge by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    A fact I've always heard is that going to the moon is so expensive

    "A fact" huh?

    Don't you think your intel is pretty dated?

    That was true when a handful of governments could get you into space. But now clearing the atmosphere has been made far cheaper thanks to companies like SPaceX and Blue Origin, and driving costs cheaper.

    Anyone can do the math and see that it might make a lot of sense to try mining valuable minerals from space objects now, and if not certainly within 10 years it will be easily viable.

    Tourism is another valid angle, but there's much more to see (much more quickly and safely) in LEO and that hasn't taken off either.

    It's just starting but the uptake will be quick. I'd way rather visit the moon than just do an orbital visit though.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Maybe you should update your knowledge by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Anyone can do the math and see that it might make a lot of sense to try mining valuable minerals from space objects now, and if not certainly within 10 years it will be easily viable.

      Oh, you're doing math ? Let's see then. I agree that launching a small satellite on a F9 is more affordable now, but that Israeli lander is still quite far away from doing anything profitable on the Moon.

      So, what would it cost for someone to actually mine stuff from the Moon, and send the materials to a buyer ?

  12. Business model by Megahard · · Score: 3, Insightful

    1. Go to the moon.
    2. ???
    3. Profit!

    --
    I eat only the real part of complex carbohydrates.
    1. Re: Business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I likk yerr tows kleen

    2. Re:Business model by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I do wonder if there is enough tourism to even break even.

      To become a moon tourist you have to be extremely wealthy, reasonably fit, willing to put up with the somewhat unpleasant journey there and back (you have see a space toilet?) and have some interest in actually going there. That seems like quite a narrow market.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:Business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read the man who sold the moon.. Everything is spelled out there.

    4. Re:Business model by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      And it's only a matter of time before there's a terrible accident.

    5. Re:Business model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Go to the moon.
      2. ???
      3. Profit!

      1. Go to the moon.
      2. Harvest cheese
      3. Profit!

      ?

  13. Redo the math, launching from low gravity well by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    SpaceX currently charges $62 million to launch 50k lb satellites

    No, they say it costs $62 million for each Falcon 9 launch.

    Form Earth.

    So it would be pretty expensive to send gold to the moon. Luckily for people working on this plan, they only need to get gold from the moon back to the Earth - way cheaper since you just have to launch from the moon's gravity well, and basically takes controlled falling back to Earth to recover.

    Also of course, SpaceX launch costs are predicted to get much cheaper over time.

    You might say, well the rocket has to get there... true, but since it would go to the moon mostly empty to pick up shipments, it would could also have a paying cargo like satellites that get released before it heads to the moon.

    The economic feasibility of the plan is good, just needs the BFR (which is more made for these kind of land and re-takeoff missions) to make it practical.

    All you'd be paying for would be the rocket and not the fuel, which would be made on the moon. Heck you'l probably come back with some extra fuel so that would further reduce the cost of the flight as SpaceX could credit a mining org for that.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Redo the math, launching from low gravity well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm making a container carrier steamship that runs on CH4 and air. The steam engine is reusable indefinitely, and I'm getting the CO2 and H2O from oceans to make CH4 with. The ship is covered with windmills and solar panels. With this plan I've invented free commercial shipping.

    2. Re:Redo the math, launching from low gravity well by religionofpeas · · Score: 2

      and basically takes controlled falling back to Earth to recover.

      You underestimate what it takes to control a fall back to Earth. You would have to package the payload in a capsule. You can either take that capsule all the way to the Moon and back (like in the Apollo program), or you have to do a rendez-vous in LEO, which requires building (or refurbishing) a capsule, launching it to LEO, orbital matching of payload and capsule, and performing autonomous loading procedure. Orbital matching means that your payload needs thrusters and navigation.

    3. Re:Redo the math, launching from low gravity well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't feed the troll.

    4. Re:Redo the math, launching from low gravity well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not how I would calculate this.

      Suppose we take the biggest rocket available today - Falcon Heavy. It can launch 16,000kg to translunar orbit insertion. However, this is in "expendable mode", so the cost would be something like 150$ million. Now you have launched a spacecraft that can weight 16 metric tons and that has to carry:
      1. a lander with enough fuel to land
      2. a return capsule with enough fuel to depart the Moon and leave it's orbit

      I don't know the exact numbers here, but I think it is safe to assume at least half of the weight of the spacecraft will be for the spacecraft itself and the fuel, the other half for the payload. So we can land a payload of 8 tons on the Moon now. of this, of which we have a payload of 4 tons. At a price of 40k USD per kg, this is 160 million USD. Not counting the costs of mining and the costs of refining a precious metal on the Moon, and the cost of the spacecraft itself. And assuming that the price of gold doesn't fall.

      Now I am assuming technology available today and I am very conservative in my numbers. .

    5. Re:Redo the math, launching from low gravity well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In fact, the best thing about the moon is the lacking of dense atmosphere (only traces of one). Mainly void, so rail launchers are viable.

      To return something from the Moon only needs a heat shield (probably inflatable), a cointainer and small engines for corrections (like Draco engines).
      Most of that could be made on the Moon.

      The problem is that all of this only scalates with certain volumes of mass, so a huge industry should be built to reach the point of amortization of all of this industry.

    6. Re:Redo the math, launching from low gravity well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're discussing dropping ROCKS. We don't need a highly sophisticated capsule built in Earth's gravity well to drop rocks back into it. So long as physics works, it'll go where we send it.

      You are vastly overcomplicating this.

    7. Re:Redo the math, launching from low gravity well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why would anyone pay so much to drop ROCKS from the sky when space nutters already agree we live on a ROCK and therefore can get all the ROCKS we want already

      you are vastly underthinking this

    8. Re:Redo the math, launching from low gravity well by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      We don't need a highly sophisticated capsule built in Earth's gravity well to drop rocks back into it.

      For what purpose, exactly ? Because we like to make a wish when we see their glowing streaks as they vaporize in the night sky ?

    9. Re:Redo the math, launching from low gravity well by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      Why bring the resources back in a rocket at all? Build space elevator on the moon, which can be done with existing materials. Use the moon space elevator powered by solar panels to lift the resource out of the gravity well of the moon and use rail gun or something to launch a pack of resources back to the earth. You would only need to send a rocket for supplies that you can't manufacture on the moon.

    10. Re:Redo the math, launching from low gravity well by dryeo · · Score: 1

      It's still a 112,000 km cable (less with counterweight). Building a cable that goes 2-3 times around the Earth.
      You still need a fairly strong material to build the cable out of, most of which are based on carbon, which seems in short supply on the Moon.
      While possible, it isn't going to happen soon as first you'd need a pretty good industrial base.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    11. Re:Redo the math, launching from low gravity well by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      We could put a rail gun system on the moon surface to launch from. Aiming could be a problem though as the only variable you could change would be the force with which the package is launched.

    12. Re:Redo the math, launching from low gravity well by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Rail gun could probably be designed with a couple of degrees of aiming option by varying the magnetic field from side to side. Probably still need small thrusters on the payload. Seems a lot more doable in the short term.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  14. Kendall you're a moron you know nothing about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, it's a fact. Going to the moon and bringing anything back is prohibitively expensive to the point that to do so for collection of ore/artifact purposes has no chance of breaking even. You're a fucking moron.

    Fact.

  15. Kendall you're a moron you know nothing about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a fact. Going to the moon and bringing anything back is prohibitively expensive to the point that to do so for collection of ore/artifact purposes has no chance of breaking even. You're a fucking moron.

    Fact.

  16. I don't think they're losing anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    run online shops with a first mover advantage
    scale up while you steal money from tax payers from failing to pay tax
    undercut everyone everywhere with low margins, investor money and tax fraud
    steal billions from tax payers worldwide from failing to pay tax
    start an aerospace company
    get billions in government contracts paid with money tax payers actually paid

    1. Re:I don't think they're losing anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      get caught cheating on your wife who you've been married to since before you became a multi-billionaire

      PROFIT!

  17. You're Just Handwaving by Kunedog · · Score: 1

    "A fact" huh?
    Don't you think your intel is pretty dated?

    Yes, hence my question of how much it has changed.

    Anyone can do the math and see that it might make a lot of sense to try mining valuable minerals from space objects now, and if not certainly within 10 years it will be easily viable.

    False, I cannot do this math, nor does it seem intuitive (even ignoring mining costs) that mining anything on the moon could come close to breaking even.

    I was hoping someone might link an xkcd-what-if style analysis of some kind. In another post, you made a good point that the rocket could leave Earth empty and the payload only needs to escape moon's gravity, but that's all.

    1. Re:You're Just Handwaving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since these are metals and the moon has no atmosphere, ingots could possibly be fired out of an electromagnetic gun into lunar orbit and collected there. Alternatively, a lunar elevator could be constructed using kevlar ribbon. Very expensive to do the first time, but after it has been built the costs of escaping lunar gravity become way lower - mostly equipment maintenance costs. Both of these sound a bit outlandish, but are technically feasible. Depends on what is found on the moon. Large deposits of Platinum and Palladium would be hugely valuable since they have good industrial uses back on earth.

    2. Re:You're Just Handwaving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Escaping the Moon's gravity may be easier than escaping Earth's gravity, but still - you have to carry the return spacecraft AND the fuel on your way to the Moon. Unless we find a viable way for producing rocket propellants on the Moon - but this is all theoretical for now.

      So you have to bring all the fuel with you, you also have to factor the costs of mining on the Moon. Then you have the costs of refining - because you don't want to bring back a bunch of rocks with a concentration of gold of less than 1%.

      Then you have the cost of gold - if mining on the Moon is that much cheaper, it's price will inevitably fall, to the point it becomes pointless to mine it there.

      Unless mining gold there becomes more profitable than mining it on Earth - there is no point in bringing it back to Earth.

      Maybe for space use, use on the Moon or whatever - this is different and it does make sense, but it won't happen in the near feature.

    3. Re:You're Just Handwaving by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      False, I cannot do this math, nor does it seem intuitive (even ignoring mining costs) that mining anything on the moon could come close to breaking even.

      I concur.

      People always seem to ignore the massive infrastructure work that's been done on earth which is necessary to do any sort of large-scale anything. People always seem to ignore maintenance. The need for spare parts. Power. Scale.

      And by scale I mean we've explored a couple inches down in a few feet of space on the moon. That's it. Here on earth it's only economical to mine already discovered veins of minerals. On the moon, we don't have any of those. What are we planning to do, just stick hundreds of robotic mining machines on the moon and have them dig around until they find something? And hope they do before we run out of money?

      All these problems, and SpaceX is knocking a zero off the cost of getting shit into orbit. Once they hit their stride and a few copy-cats pop up, it's just going to be so much easier and cheaper to throw shit into space than set up a mining base on the moon. We're a long way from even a temporary base on the moon, let alone a mining operation. Let alone a smelting operation, which would be the only way to come close to break-even. You can't spend energy to heave useless slag into orbit and expect to turn a profit.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    4. Re:You're Just Handwaving by dryeo · · Score: 1

      The only hope I can see is finding a iron-nickel meteorite that didn't hit too hard and mining that.
      Most people also forget or aren't aware that much of what we mine has been concentrated by water or life. Gold nuggets, comes from veins of gold deposited by super heated water with gold dissolved in it. Much iron was deposited by life or the byproducts of life (oxygen). Carbon, likewise concentrated by life.
      I'm not a geologist but I assume a lot of minerals are similar as well as the surface of the Moon down quite a ways is broken regolith.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  18. What about Antartica? by louzer · · Score: 2

    Shouldn't we rape Antarctica First for resources before the moon?

    --
    Heroes die once, cowards live longer.
    1. Re:What about Antartica? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Antartica loves being raped in the azzwhole. She is no modern bitch.

    2. Re:What about Antartica? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't we rape Antarctica First for resources before the moon?

      No, because that will pollute Earth, which matters. It doesn't matter if we pollute the moon, because it's a dusty ball of rocks where nothing currently lives.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:What about Antartica? by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      No, because that will pollute Earth, which matters. It doesn't matter if we pollute the moon, because it's a dusty ball of rocks where nothing currently lives.

      If you're worried about pollution, then design a closed cycle mining operation on Earth that doesn't leave any contamination. Put a roof over the entire mine and refinery, don't spill any water, and fill the mine back up with the original rock.

      Still 100 times cheaper than doing the same thing on the Moon.

  19. Billboard by snookiex · · Score: 1

    Mining? I don't know about you guys, but I see great potential to use the moon as a huge billboard to place ads. Is there any treaty against that?

    --
    Open Source Network Inventory for the masses! Kuwaiba
    1. Re:Billboard by mentil · · Score: 1

      There's not. IIRC about 15 years back some company (Pizza Hut?) considered engraving their name/logo into the Moon, but it was considered too costly to do so.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    2. Re:Billboard by cellocgw · · Score: 1

      t I see great potential to use the moon as a huge billboard to place ads.

      It was proposed to the 6+ Corp but they turned it down long ago.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
  20. Can EditorDavid get smart? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Betteridge says no. But we didn't need Betteridge's law for this: Clickbait makes stupid.

  21. The value in the moon is in cheaper launches. by t0qer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The value in the moon is in cheaper launches. Might be a little late for karma whoring but... bare with me here.

    In the 60's we had the technology to build a base on the moon. Hell, we could have even had the technology to produce fuel on the moon. Somewhere there's an interview with Armstrong who said even NASA knew there was water on the moon in the 60's. Water + electricity = hydrogen and oxygen. Very easy to get the 2 turned into some sort of fuel.

    The thing we lacked though was money. Beyond money, we lacked things we have today that we just take for granted (looking at the har har funny comments here) We barely had enough fast switching technology to send a 240x160 video stream back to earth. Today we can switch at GHZ, lots of stuff can be fit into that stream. Lots of information. We don't even need it though, we can probably fit plenty in 1tb of solid state storage.

    Moving on, we now have advanced processing that recognize conditions and work autonomously. Coupled with 3d printing, we can send smaller robots to the moon to do most of the heavy lifting that would have required humans years ago. There's no atmosphere on the moon, so solar panels will work a lot better up there than here on earth.

    So now instead of sending a construction crew to the moon, we can send robots. Robots that will find a suitable place (lava tubes or deep craters) that will build us a base in a somewhat underground area, shielded from cosmic rays and the suns radiation. They can generate their own power, find ice, turn it into breathable oxygen, and eventually fuel for return trips.

    I think that's the end game of this moon rush. It's not for tourism, or finding metals. It's to be somewhere that has 1/7th the gravity of the earth, meaning 1/7th the amount of fuel to launch. Future missions, like building a deep space manned craft to go to mars will need the moon. As soon as we get some sort of livable permanent habitat up there, we will start sending other machines up there, start building clean rooms to build processors and RAM up there.

    In the beginning, I'd imagine the labor on the moon will be much higher than that on earth, but as the outpost up there evolves, eventually the cost of manufacturing up there will be negated by the cost of launches. That is why we need to be up there. There will never be any reason to bring the resources of the moon back here, but we need to be there to make our eventual trip into the outer solar system possible.

    1. Re:The value in the moon is in cheaper launches. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Back in the late 60s/early 70s NASA took proposals for a Mars mission. Most involved rather large and elaborate craft, to be launched on multiple Saturn 5 rockets and assembled in orbit. IIRC one required 8 Saturn 5s and proposed two ships in a convoy, with a crew of 8 on each.

      They looked at using the Moon as a base for launches, but it would have been much more expensive. A lot of new technology would have been needed to live up there and produce fuel, and to launch large vehicles from the surface. The in-orbit assembly could be done using existing technology, long term space habitats were already being developed for Skylab. The only new thing was an ion drive with nuclear power plant, and the USSR had already demonstrated one of those.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:The value in the moon is in cheaper launches. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's cheaper still to stay in space when you're in space. Say no to gravity wells.

    3. Re:The value in the moon is in cheaper launches. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      somewhere that has 1/7th the gravity of the earth, meaning 1/7th the amount of fuel to launch

      It's much less than 1/7th of the fuel as there is no aerodynamic friction to overcome. That said, isn't it dumb to sit in a gravity well to do mining when there are asteroids in zero g that can be mined?

    4. Re:The value in the moon is in cheaper launches. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bare with me here.

      Yes. Yes, I am.

    5. Re:The value in the moon is in cheaper launches. by crunchygranola · · Score: 1

      Might be a little late for karma whoring but... bare with me here.

      No. Just no. I am not getting bare with you, even if you leave whoring out of the equation.

      --
      Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
    6. Re:The value in the moon is in cheaper launches. by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      The moonbase would be much more expensive if you were looking at one trip. Teh benefit of the base comes from using it as a regular port of entry.

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
    7. Re:The value in the moon is in cheaper launches. by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      I think that's the end game of this moon rush. It's not for tourism, or finding metals. It's to be somewhere that has 1/7th the gravity of the earth, meaning 1/7th the amount of fuel to launch. Future missions, like building a deep space manned craft to go to mars will need the moon.

      "Why do we need to spend trillions of dollars to establish lunar mining? Why, to save billions of dollars on assembling things in orbit!"

      Yep... I knew you'd get there eventually. Every starry-eyed space fanboy eventually does.

  22. It's a rush until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    there's too much debris in Earth orbit to safely traverse.

  23. All Libtards Onboard Spaceship Bearshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The radiation in space will give you all cancer. You'll then die a slow and painful death. And Earth will be a better place. The end.

  24. Re:Billboard - Jack Vance "The Face" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Jack Vance thought of this idea in his novel "The Face". Well worth a read btw...

  25. Too bad by backslashdot · · Score: 1

    We are not running out of anything on Earth except maybe intelligence. I doubt youâ(TM)ll find much of that on the Moon, though bringing back few rocks might significantly improve the average IQ of the planet.

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  27. anas azam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

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  28. The moon doesn't have much expensive stuff by GlobalEcho · · Score: 1

    The Moon was formed from a big collision between the Earth and some other object. Generally speaking, the light stuff was flung further into space, and formed the Moon while the heavy stuff congealed into the Earth as we know it.

    As a consequence, the Moon has density of 3.5 grams/cc while the Earth has 5.5 g/cc. All the heavy, expensive stuff is on the Earth. So mining operations on the Moon would not find a lot of iron and valuable heavier metals. Silicates and the like, sure.

    1. Re:The moon doesn't have much expensive stuff by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      All the heavy, expensive stuff is in the Earth

      Fixed that for you.

    2. Re:The moon doesn't have much expensive stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Testing of lunar soil makes it pretty clear that there are significant quantities useful materials on the moon. While it is probably true that the Moon as a whole has less metals as a percentage of its total mass, it also probably hasn't mostly filtered into the core of the planet or been bound up in various compounds by chemical/biological processes over billions of years.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_soil#/media/File:Composition_of_lunar_soil.svg

  29. Lunar Tourism Now! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's build theme parks and race tracks on the moon! Imagine how much fun we could have in a low-gravity environment! Roller coasters and real-life F-Zero Grand Prix for everybody!

    Exclamation point!

  30. Finallly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    An American might reach the moon. For real.

  31. Wishful Thinking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This Gerald Black dude, he's projecting his desires here. I mean the Google Lunar X prize was never awarded. How much proof do you need?? $20 million was on the line and not one of the teams even launched.

    Just because the Chinese and Israelis put landers down, does not mean there is a "Moonrush". When was the lander before that? Wasn't it the last Apollo mission? That's a 45 year gap; it's way, waaaayyyyy premature to be talking some big surge in Moon missions.

    And the justification for going back to the Moon is still pretty thin. "The Moon is awash in water!" people are smoking too much weed, as are most of the lunar mining proposals. Making statements on first principles are fine but that only suggests that in the long term the Moon might become an important base of operations.

    In the meantime, the Moon has no atmosphere, it has precious little water, there's no infrastructure or support, there's no place to refuel, there's no base, there's no magnetic field to shield you, and it can kill you in a heartbeat. It's a place you can touch down on for a day to a week so long as you bring everything with you. Fail to bring everything and you do without.

    Also, the "do it with robots!" people manage to ignore that robots are poor at autonomous operation, break down frequently, and get hung up on the simplest and most ridiculous of problems. No, don't tell me about NASA's Mars rovers. Those get 24x7 handholding from a massive support team, and the Mars rovers are only tasked with simple and unchallenging work.

    There's no mining going on by Mars rovers, not to put too fine a point on it. And if there were, even a purpose-build Mars mining rover would last about a week before experiencing a catastrophic failure.

  32. stellar realty startups by AndrewFlagg · · Score: 1

    in 2000, when the dotcom deregulation came through, i had the idea of stellarpropertymanagement.com and said. can't wait till we have to do an open house and showing on the moon.

  33. Betteridge's Law by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

    Short answer: nope!

    Longer answer: Gold rushes start when someone finds an easily and cheaply accessible lode of commercially valuable ore... And a bunch of other people rush in to get their piece of the action. Almost always, they're short lived and the only people who actually make money are the folks selling supplies to would-be miners.

    There is no material on the Lunar surface that's easily and cheaply available - even if you use it on orbit rather than returning it to Earth.

  34. Launches to places with even less economic largess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Implied in all of this by the "colonize" movement seems to be that the Moon, Mars, etc are places we will naturally ultimately colonize, they are just really hard to get to, much like for instance the Americas or Australia in colonial times. But humans colonized new places on Earth because there were solid economic reasons - actual riches - to be made there. New land to farm, mines, commodities like sugar, tobacco, rice, timber, cotton to produce and sell. Land ultimately every bit as advantageous and habitable as in the Old World. And you could get there in normal technology sailing vessels that were already in use, and bring those commodities back just as easily (if slowly). Yet I continue to see in extraterrestrial real estate little in common with those earthly colonial territories. Consider a place much closer to home that is similarly inhospitable: Antarctica. You can sail or fly there fairly easily in conventional transport. There is just as much reason (probably more) to believe there are mines there with undiscovered commodities. Plenty of unoccupied land where humans could colonize. Air to breathe and water to (melt and) drink. There aren't even any pesky indigenous people you'd have to displace. We even use Antarctica as a place to simulate aspects of Moon and Mars colonies! Lots of interest from tourists and scientists. It's a cool interesting place to visit and study. Yet even though it's a thousand times more accessible than space, no one has ever bothered to establish a colony there or even a viable town, other than to support scientific outposts (McMurdo). It's just because . . . why?

    Honestly, I don't see the moon, or Mars, or the ISS for that matter, as being much different from Antarctica. Some science outposts (though mostly occupied by robots), a bit of tourism. That's about it, for the next century or so. Now, if someone can figure out a fairly cheap way to to terraform . . . please do get back to me in that case.