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Foxconn is Confusing the Hell Out of Wisconsin (theverge.com)

Posted by msmash on from the strange-saga-continues dept.

Josh Dzieza, writing for The Verge: The secrecy and vagueness are frustrating to critics. How do you prove that Foxconn won't build an enormous LCD factory during an industry glut or create a research campus larger than MIT in rural Wisconsin other than by pointing out that experts -- and even, occasionally, Foxconn executives -- say it makes no sense? State House Minority Leader Gordon Hintz recently appointed himself to the board of WEDC, and Foxconn's continued promises of 13,000 jobs make him palpably furious. Speaking in slow, measured tones in his Madison office as he packed for a trip, he said the state needs to "right-size" the project to something realistic, likely a few hundred research jobs, and that Foxconn needs to be honest about its plans. "For something that had a 25-year payback, building a factory because the president wants you to for reasons that have nothing to do with market viability is insane." Hintz believes Foxconn is trying to slow-walk the project until 2020, continuing to use it to win Trump's goodwill in the trade war and waiting to see who's elected. Foxconn has responded. Nilay Patel, writing for The Verge: Today, Foxconn responded to that piece by... announcing another innovation center in Wisconsin, this one in Madison, the state's capital. The building, which currently houses a bank, actually sits directly across the street from the Capitol building, and it will continue to house the bank because Foxconn did not announce when it would be moving in. Here are some other things Foxconn did not announce: how much it had paid for the building, how many floors of the building it would occupy, how many people would work there, or what those people would be doing. It did announce that it would be rebranding the building "Foxconn Place Madison," however.

102 comments

  1. Fuck Foxconn. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Throw em off the building.

    1. Re: Fuck Foxconn. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would you care what Foxconn is up to? It s like having the village idiot walking around talking nonsense. Pay no attention at all.

    2. Re: Fuck Foxconn. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You ramble like lunatic. Don't even know what you're saying.

    3. Re:Fuck Foxconn. by qubezz · · Score: 1

      They'd just land in the anti-suicide nets.

  2. Orange Man Bad by gweihir · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is just one of the effects. Of course, Foxconn has no intentions doing an economically demented move. But tricking the, ahem, "stable genius" in the white house, why not? It is the job of politics to keep companies like Foxconn under control and if politics proves incapable, everybody suffers.

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    1. Re:Orange Man Bad by arglebargle_xiv · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Hintz believes Foxconn is trying to slow-walk the project until 2020, continuing to use it to win Trump's goodwill in the trade war and waiting to see who's elected.

      He's got it exactly right. And this was obvious right from the start, their move never made any business sense whatsoever, but it was a brilliant piece of politics. Just look at what's happened to Huawei, who didn't have the foresight to pull a Foxconn on Trump.

    2. Re:Orange Man Bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Foxconn had the Apple-in. Huawei keeps getting caught with employee-poaching malware and phone homes and IP theft, then they tried to pretend Interpol warrants weren't shit. It's kind of incomparable. Plus the Chi-Coms don't actually OWN foxconn.

    3. Re:Orange Man Bad by gweihir · · Score: 0

      To be fair, it was not really difficult to trick Trump. Because it was indeed obvious from the start and Trump either does not even have the minimal business-savvy to see that or he simply did not care. (Never attribute to maliciousness what can be adequately explained by stupidity, but Trump has both in spades...)

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    4. Re:Orange Man Bad by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 2

      But tricking the, ahem, "stable genius" in the white house, why not?

      We're all going to feel very foolish when we learn that Trump hobby is designing really elegant houses for horses.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    5. Re:Orange Man Bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And this was obvious right from the start, their move never made any business sense whatsoever, but it was a brilliant piece of politics. Just look at what's happened to Huawei, who didn't have the foresight to pull a Foxconn on Trump.

      Trump is the worst and most dangerous kind of leader America could get. He doesn't actually particularly care about governing America, which, last I checked was larger than his voting base. He cares about the appearance of winning, of the legend, of the brand. Him winning thousands of jobs was what he cared about. Whether he was intelligent enough or informed enough to know they were likely bullshit doesn't matter. There is no evidence he cared one way or another, nor will he care when the story comes up, that the jobs didn't pan out. It won't matter then, or he will blame someone else. Fixing problems doesn't really matter to him. He wants the image of the strong man holding the sword, even if what he cuts is the hard won order and stability built over time. Seriously, he happily burns order to fuel his reign, and seems preparing to toss much more of it on the fire, if it will keep him in power. Hell he just flat out said he wanted to use refugees as political weapons by dumping them on his enemies like, well like, smallpox infested blankets. To use people in such a way is the lowest of the low and so far beyond unforgivable as to be unimaginable.

      Yes, Trump is the worst president possible. Any worse, and our natural defences might have stopped him. He is just bad enough that they don't engage and the progression towards full out sepsis continues. As far as Foxconn goes, well you can't really blame a company for playing the game necessary to exist in the time of Trump. That doesn't make FoxConn a hero. They aren't, and it is totally fair game and likely appropriate to avoid some of their products because they lied, providing you can find a more ethical alternative. Is there a more ethical alternative for most of their products? Perhaps South Korean manufacturers?

    6. Re:Orange Man Bad by SocietyoftheFist · · Score: 2

      Sadly flattery will get you everywhere with this guy. I'm thinking that he is starting to slip mentally. I'm not referring to his policies, like or dislike them as you may, I mean some of the stuff he focuses on saying, it seems like his mind is faltering.

    7. Re:Orange Man Bad by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking that he is starting to slip mentally. I'm not referring to his policies, like or dislike them as you may, I mean some of the stuff he focuses on saying, it seems like his mind is faltering.

      Starting to? What makes me worry is when he can't pronounce some common word, multiple times in a row. That looks strokey AF. Oringins indeed.

      --
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    8. Re:Orange Man Bad by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      But tricking the, ahem, "stable genius" in the white house, why not?

      We're all going to feel very foolish when we learn that Trump hobby is designing really elegant houses for horses.

      No, actually, in that story he's still a crazy clown. If he's secretly a Cossack that would explain a lot, though.

    9. Re:Orange Man Bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      test comment

    10. Re:Orange Man Bad by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      This is his brain on coke.

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  3. question by Rick+Zeman · · Score: 1

    Does "confusing the hell out of" really mean "playing with like a cat plays with something it's gonna kill?"

    1. Re:question by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Wait, you thought Foxconn could kill Wisconsin?

      Ivan, are you sure you know what a Wisconsin is?

  4. S.C.A.M. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    G.O.P.

    S.N.A.F.U.

  5. Where are the American LCD manufacturers ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If there is a market opportunity where are the Americans and their VC money ? incapable ? no market to serve ? or maybe rent seeking is more profitable for less physical work ie. Lazy

    1. Re: Where are the American LCD manufacturers ? by Cmdln+Daco · · Score: 1

      Standish was a really excellent LCD manufacturer and even based in Wisconsin. We used a few custom displays made by them at a company I worked for in the 90s. They are gone now as far as I can tell. I suspect it has all migrated to China.

  6. Political mess by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But before leaving office, [Scott Walker (R)] undermined [Tony Evers (D)]’ power over the project by signing a bill that moved the Foxconn liaison out of the governor’s administration and into the state’s economic development corporation, WEDC, and prevented Evers from appointing a new WEDC CEO until September. So far, Evers has taken a cautious approach.

    This mess has been brought to you by the Republican party.

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    1. Re:Political mess by Solandri · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Only insomuch as Evers is unable to immediately rescind Walker's deal ($4.5 billion in incentives and subsidies according to TFA).

      You see, when you raise taxes, you're making a trade-off. You're deciding that the programs you need to fund with those taxes will benefit your society and economy more than the businesses that you're going to scare away with your tax increase. That is, the tax increase has the benefit of improving government services. But has the negative of hurting your economy by scaring away businesses from setting up or expanding in your jurisdiction. By supporting the tax increase, you are making a tacit admission that you believe the benefit of improved services outweighs the loss of business caused by the higher taxes.

      So either you believe the tax increase is justified and thus should apply to all companies. Or you look at the possibility of a company like Amazon or Foxconn setting up shop in your jurisdiction, and decide the tax increase does more harm than good, and you keep taxes lower for all companies. You don't get to pick and choose who has to pay a high tax rate and who gets to pay a lower tax rate. Scaring off one Amazon with your tax increase has the same economic effect as scaring off several hundred small businesses with your tax increase. So it's all or nothing - either the tax increase is worth it, or it isn't.

      So unless you believe all companies should get a similar tax break, supporting these one-company deals expose you as a hypocrite. If you truly believe that your economy can be improved by offering a company such a deal, then you are implicitly admitting that your current level of taxation is too high, and your economy could be improved by lower taxes for all companies. Offering such a deal to attract a single company, while refusing lower taxes for all other companies means you are a hypocrite. That's the situation New York City found themselves in with Amazon, and whether deliberately or by accident, they ended up making the philosophically self-consistent choice and scaring Amazon away from the deal.

      Walker is (was) in a different position though. He likely felt the state's current level of taxation was too high, and genuinely believed the state's economy could be improved by offering a lower tax rate to attract more business. He probably wanted a more broader tax decrease but was unable to get enough support for it; but was able to get enough support for the Foxconn deal. So his offering Foxcon tn the deal was likely consistent with his economy philosophy. And tucking control over it into the WEDC was just a way for him to keep it alive for 9 more months after he left office.

      Evers' position is more untenable. If he thinks the state's current level of taxation is the right amount or too low, then philosophically there is only one justifiable choice for him to make - kill the Foxconn deal and rescind all the tax breaks and incentives (basically what NYC did to Amazon). So he shouldn't care at all Foxconn says it'll do, since in all likelihood they'll pull out when he kills the deal. Attempting to keep the deal fully or partly alive just exposes him as a hypocrite. You can only support such a deal while remaining philosophically self-consistent if you also support similar tax breaks and incentives for everyone.

    2. Re:Political mess by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      I'm afraid your essay is lost on Republicans, who think all taxes are bad, except regressive ones like the sales tax, and who think subsidies are bad, except anything that benefits Big Oil, and who thinks regulations are bad, except again anything that benefits Big Oil.

      --
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    3. Re: Political mess by Falos · · Score: 2

      I'll try ELY5ing.

      If people see your shop sign that says HAIRCUT: $10, they'll present you with a Hamilton and request service.

      If you have no signage, they're likely to inquire. Your answer of "how much you got" will put them off, but many will still present a Hamilton for you to pluck.

      If you do this, then immediately accept $1.50 from someone else, in plain sight, how likely do you think it is they'll come back? Maybe if you start cutting the $1.50 deal with them. Perhaps. But wait, no, they're still expected to pay $10. Okay, off they go~

      Me, I'm more concerned that states are trying to out-blood each other. Besides the show of corporatocracy, it's self-destructive. It's Bob and Jimmy selling their lunches for $5! $2! $1! Free! I'll pay you to come to my shop not his!

      * Hamilton is the president on $10 bill in the US.
      * Bob Belcher runs a burger shop across the street from Jimmy, a rival.

      Think about it. The scene is done to comic effect. A show of absurdity. Ha ha, only *idiots* would do something so ridiculous, ha ha ha oh what mirth what madness!

    4. Re:Political mess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So either you believe the tax increase is justified and thus should apply to all companies. Or you look at the possibility of a company like Amazon or Foxconn setting up shop in your jurisdiction, and decide the tax increase does more harm than good, and you keep taxes lower for all companies. You don't get to pick and choose who has to pay a high tax rate and who gets to pay a lower tax rate. ...

      Walker is (was) in a different position though. He likely felt the state's current level of taxation was too high, and genuinely believed the state's economy could be improved by offering a lower tax rate to attract more business. He probably wanted a more broader tax decrease but was unable to get enough support for it; but was able to get enough support for the Foxconn deal. So his offering Foxcon tn the deal was likely consistent with his economy philosophy. And tucking control over it into the WEDC was just a way for him to keep it alive for 9 more months after he left office.

      So, you argue eloquently why you don't pick and choose winners and losers then shit all over it because of Walker's "economy philosophy" that felt it better to choose some winners and losers rather than have everyone with the overly high tax rate. Awesome. What next? Lowering the maximum sentence for some people? If the system is unjust or ineffective, you fix the system. If Walker had actually used the Foxconn situation as a wedge issue to justify for broader tax reform, that'd be one thing.

      However, the deal was itself on a scale that Walker had zero reason to believe he'd actually be around to actually argue that case. If he actually believed what you say, he'd have pushed hard for a smaller, short term tax reform for a several smaller businesses. Those would have very rapidly produced results, one way or another, and been a platform for broader reform. Instead, the deal was pushed through on a large corporation where there likely wouldn't be quick or clear results, unless things turned into a total shit show. Well, things unsurprisingly turned into a total shit show.

      Evers' position is more untenable. If he thinks the state's current level of taxation is the right amount or too low, then philosophically there is only one justifiable choice for him to make - kill the Foxconn deal and rescind all the tax breaks and incentives (basically what NYC did to Amazon). So he shouldn't care at all Foxconn says it'll do, since in all likelihood they'll pull out when he kills the deal. Attempting to keep the deal fully or partly alive just exposes him as a hypocrite. You can only support such a deal while remaining philosophically self-consistent if you also support similar tax breaks and incentives for everyone.

      While I don't agree with this position, you miss the point that people believe in progressive taxation. People believe it's better to have one large company than several smaller companies. People believe that you can effectively trap a large company to stay, even if it's not the best economical situation with tax breaks precisely by using tax breaks and the inertia of having to move to a new location. So, short term you lure in large companies to produce a lot of jobs. Long term, you increase tax rates and use company inertia to extra more value than you'd have ever gotten by a fair mixture of small companies which may or may not leave on seeming whim.

      I don't think this proper, but I wouldn't say it's inherently hypocritical. It's based on the idea that it's okay to choose winners and losers for economic and governmental benefit. The main difference is the left supposedly does it for the people in general; the right supposedly does it for a few individuals. Simply put, both are choosing winners and losers. I don't buy your argument on the why of Walker, even if he's claimed words to that effect. If the locale you're in simply believes higher taxes are good, you don't do a Trump and declare a national emerg

    5. Re: Political mess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This mess... meaning worst case the company doesn't invest there. As long as all proposed icentives are based on actual investments then I don't see a problem.

      Oh sure there's politics.. officially killing the deal would play well for Democrats (Obama had some big business subsidy failures that Republicans harped on, so I suppose it is only turnabout as fair play)

      Truth is Foxconn doesn't know if the trade war is going to be resolved or not so it is completely reasonable for them to hold off until there is a trade deal.

    6. Re:Political mess by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 3, Informative

      Only insomuch as Evers is unable to immediately rescind Walker's deal ($4.5 billion in incentives and subsidies according to TFA).

      The people elected Evers on the very basis that he would kill the deal. The fact that his ability to do so was taken away AFTER Walker lost the election shows that Walker is undermining the will of the people which is completely undemocratic.

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    7. Re:Political mess by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      What a load of horse shit.

      You Republicans are always saying taxes scare business, the businesses aren't even paying shit for taxes. 40 years ago businesses and individuals each paid about 50% of State taxes, individuals now pay over 90% of State taxes. Their total tax load is almost non-existent. Just because they're still whining does not imply that it is actually something that effects the numbers, or that they would pull an Ayn Rand - Atlas Shrugged and go on strike by refusing to participate in the economy. In reality they're not going to hold their breath and stamp their feet and close their business, because paying an equal share of local taxes is actually good for the economy.

      Every tax, the Republicans say it will be the end of the world and businesses will leave if you do it. In "blue states" when we pass taxes, the sky doesn't fall. And yet, you still repeat the lame bullshit.

      They told us if we set the minimum wage to $10 all the restaurants would go out of business. It turns out that a disproportionate number of restaurant workers spend their pay eating out at other restaurants! So instead of restaurants going out of business, and only the rich being able to eat out, instead the whole restaurant industry experienced increased demand and increased profits.

      Same as it ever was.

    8. Re: Political mess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If people see your shop sign that says HAIRCUT: $10, they'll present you with a Hamilton and request service.

      Sorry, I live in the land of fake prices. Here a $10 haircut costs $10.85 at the register. The state has authorized lying about the actually price.

  7. Re:Control JEW.S.A. jews then (they own politics) by gweihir · · Score: 0

    Get help, urgently.

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  8. They don't sound confused. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They just sound stupid.

  9. it ain't hard by guygo · · Score: 1

    Foxconn zecks are laughing in their beers about the idiots on the other side of the table. "Confusing"? More like "completely hoodwinking".

  10. Re:Control JEW.S.A. jews then (they own politics) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yea we got ourselves a JEW here in gweihir! Standard from SHUL bs of "meds" or "get professional help" when you corner their SHYSTER asses!

  11. YOU support Foxconn. Proudly. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah. Pretty much every piece of eectronic hardware you own is assembled by Foxconn.

    There are and were others.
    But look at what you voted for with your wallet.

    YOU created the monster.
    Now you don't get to play the victim.

    Saying "Fuck Foxconn" implies fuck you too. As you are Foxconn. You are part of the investment division and sales team.

  12. Re:Control JEW.S.A. jews then (they own politics) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bigmouth gweihir silenced as all jews are when their evil beliefs are exposed. What's the matter? YOU call others defectives. You are defective now jew. Piel hole shutdown jew.

  13. Re:Control JEW.S.A. jews then (they own politics) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looks like we got us a little JEW rat cornered here. Right into shutting the fuck up.

  14. Wisconsin isn't all that bright to begin with... by PFritz21 · · Score: 0

    It doesn't take much to confuse the hell out of Wisconsin. I mean, c'mon, it's WISCONSIN.

  15. 7.25 USD per hour minwage is to high for that by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    7.25 USD per hour minwage is to high for that

    1. Re:7.25 USD per hour minwage is to high for that by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      $7.25 per hour minimum wage is to high as penny loafers are to swimming.

  16. Re:Control JEW.S.A. jews then (they own politics) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey bigmouth. You're always one to shoot off your piehole so why so silent when asked a question https://hardware.slashdot.org/... ? We know why jew.

  17. Re:Wisconsin isn't all that bright to begin with.. by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

    Especially since Hell isn't in Wisconsin in the first place!

  18. Oh you sweet summer child. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every asshole in the history of mankind knows, he can just play "stoopid" and get away with anything forever.

    Thanks to hopeless "optimists" (read: black-eyers) like you.

    In reality, incompetence diverges, while competence converges towards the goal.
    This does not imply that it's not merely a possibly incompetent pawn of a competent actual actor you're looking at.

    So, let's just check: Are the actual *actions* diverging, or converging towards a good/bad goal?

    1. Re: Oh you sweet summer child. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bless your heart

  19. Sounds like a win! Lot of HELL there in Wisconsin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cheddar heads. Second-class Illinoians. Polka. Polka? God! What a he!!

  20. And this ladies and gentlemen by rsilvergun · · Score: 1, Interesting

    is why New York told Amazon to go pound sand. This is what happens when you just make it rain cash to get a company to bring some jobs. Once they've got you over a barrel like that they can keep pushing and pushing.

    For one thing the politicians are going to be dependent on bribes^XCampaign Contributions to win since they just borrowed several billion dollars that'll have to be paid back for jobs that will probably never materialize (or pay less if they do). Now you're gonna have to stop investing in roads and schools to pay for all that, making your state less desirable for other employers.... and skilled employees who leave your state in droves. It's a race to the bottom.

    States that tax their wealthy and use the money to invest in the working class do better because they've got the infrastructure and skilled employees companies need. Skilled Employees aren't going going to move to a shit hole just because they can have a decent house. What good does that do if there's no schools, no amenities, nothing to do and the water's full of lead? You can't raise kids in a place like that and you can't have a good single time. The only thing you do in a place like that is try to get out of it.

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    1. Re:And this ladies and gentlemen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Honestly dude, I'm usually about 99% opposed to you politically, but given as I live in NY, i actually agree with you on this one. Amazon was playing bullshit and NY called them out on it. Probably the first time in many years (maybe ever) the state gov't here did something that didn't make me wish my wife was ok with leaving the state.

      Let them keep their bs 2nd headquarters in VA, which is obviously to put them as close to the beltway corruption... I mean lobbying zone as they can get.

    2. Re:And this ladies and gentlemen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why isn't campaign contribution classed as bribes? And why isn't bribery of a potential president punishable by death? It's more or less the only case which the death penalty should be used since it's a crime that threatens the whole country.

    3. Re:And this ladies and gentlemen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They didn't borrow anything. You don't understand what a tax subsidy is.

    4. Re:And this ladies and gentlemen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think a "whoosh" is in place here. No, it was not a loan in the strict sense. Call it an inventment then. A shitty investment.

    5. Re: And this ladies and gentlemen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a big difference between lowering taxes to attract business and investment that wouldn't otherwise come and actually paying companies to come.

    6. Re: And this ladies and gentlemen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, because taxing the wealthy is such an option for the other 47 states. If anything poorer states should eliminate taxes on the wealthy for the first 3 years of their residency. You have to have wealthy people in order to tax them

    7. Re: And this ladies and gentlemen by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0

      Why is anyone even attempting to maintain the fiction that the Democrats care about the American working class? They told them to get fucked in the last election. The future is women and minorities, aka the Obama coalition. If anyone cared about the American working class, Democrats wouldn't be importing millions of illegal aliens. Massive unskilled labor greatly harm's the working class and keeps labor costs down for the ruling class. The Democrats and the working class are now entirely estranged and I don't see this changing.

      --
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    8. Re: And this ladies and gentlemen by geoskd · · Score: 2

      Lets take that point by point, shall we...

      They told them to get fucked in the last election.

      Its actually been a lot longer that the democratic party has been shitting where they eat. Its a proud tradition that goes back at least 30-40 years. The republicans shit on the same people, but at least have the good graces not to pretend (well prior to Trump anyway) that they are the saviors of the middle class.

      The future is women and minorities, aka the Obama coalition.

      These are in fact growing demographics, and ones that are becoming more politically savvy and cohesive as a group. Both parties would be stupid to ignore this trend.

      If anyone cared about the American working class, Democrats wouldn't be importing millions of illegal aliens.

      Illegal aliens are good for all classes of Americans. They are not getting the manufacturing jobs, and the walmart jobs. In fact, they are getting the way-less-than-minimum wage jobs picking food, and doing dangerous/disgusting jobs that allow most Americans to pay a small percentage of their paycheck on food instead of the $1000 per month it would cost if the agricultural labor were paid minimum wage, and the subsidies went away. Another perfect example is in the housing industry. Without illegal labor, the cost of building an average house is on the order of 200k-300k, more in the expensive locales. illegal labor helps to bring the total cost to build down into the 150k range which makes it affordable for vastly more people (remember, the price of housing drives the cost of rent as well).

      Massive unskilled labor greatly harm's the working class and keeps labor costs down for the ruling class

      In the long term, the cost of labor is passed directly to consumers. The people who benefit most from cheap labor are everyone except the cheap laborers, and those that want to compete directly for specific jobs, but the jobs that illegals typically take are the ones that are completely unskilled, or dangerous as hell. for example, roofer have a short life expectancy, and most of the hard/unskilled work (lifting bundles, tearing off old roofs, etc...) is done by illegals who are paid next to nothing. These people fall off roofs and are disabled or killed with shocking regularity. The cost of a replacement roof for a typical house can be anywhere from 10k to 30k. If you had to use strictly legit labor, that cost would be closer to 50k. All of the legit roofers in our area went out of business 30 years ago, and all that is left are the illegals, so there are no more jobs to lose. Bringing in a million more illegals wont make them able to do any more jobs than they already do.

      The Democrats and the working class are now entirely estranged and I don't see this changing.

      Very true. Both parties have long since written off the minimum wage working class because they don't vote. Prior to Trump and Sanders, these people had no one to vote for. Given the choice, they would vote for Sanders, but they were not given that option. They voted for Trump instead. They did not vote for him because they believe he will do anything for them. They voted for Trump because they believe he will fuck up the "elites" which includes both political parties. He has delivered exactly what they expected him to, and that is why his approval will never go below 30%. That is the 30% who are so fed up they just want to see it all burn.

      At the end of the day, the working class is just plain screwed. Automation, not illegals, is making them unemployable, and there is simply no way to reverse that trend. No politician is ever going to try, so we will have massive unemployment while at the same time having millions of unfilled jobs; a truck driver is simply never going to write safety critical Flight control software (except maybe at Boeing). The only reason we don't see that discrepancy right now is because the unemployment in this country has been absorbed by millions of Americans being forced into early retirement without sufficient retirement funds. If those people showed as unemployed as they actually are, our unemployment rate would be sky high.

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    9. Re: And this ladies and gentlemen by Carcass666 · · Score: 1

      Why is anyone even attempting to maintain the fiction that the Democrats care about the American working class? They told them to get fucked in the last election. The future is women and minorities, aka the Obama coalition

      I can't think of too many places left that do not employ women and minorities... By "American working class" you must mean us white guys.

    10. Re:And this ladies and gentlemen by raftpeople · · Score: 1

      I think there is a difference between the Foxconn and Amazon deals. Amazon was really going to bring jobs to the area (see Seattle for evidence).

      You may not agree with the trade off between the benefit of the jobs and any tax breaks agreed to (I'm not sure if it was a good, bad or neutral deal for NYC), but there definitely were going to be a significant number of jobs.

    11. Re:And this ladies and gentlemen by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      It doesn't take bribes. In my community, there are no big companies with bribes, but the local R's always want to make it rain cash on any business that already is profitable and doesn't need it. They'll create "special economic zones" with tax giveaways even when nobody promises to create a single job, and no big companies even want to move in! They don't even resort to the "jobs" nonsense unless their proposal encounters resistance.

      On principle, they support giving money away to anybody already well-off.

  21. oh, it goes rather deep by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I love Wisconsin yet despise Foxconn so I'm very conflicted about this bipartisan mess. I have relatives there and have been fed a steady stream of opinions on both sides of this for years.

    When Walker was in office as governor, he wanted a big new employer to boost his political fortunes (and perhaps some jobs for some constituents) and all the big Democrat-aligned unions in the state were whining that he had not created enough jobs.

    Then came the Foxconn "deal".

    Suddely all the unions there started complaining that the jobs to be created were not "good enough", and that wondeful farmland was being trashed to make room for a big ugly factory (I made no headway pointing out that at least a Foxconn job would probably pay better than shovelling muck out of a barn it replaced, well at least until the employee decides to jump to his death...)

    Then the unions in 2018 got their dream - after years of trying to defeat and then recall Walker, they got their new left wing governor who is everything the Teacher's unions in particular desperately wanted.

    Now, the Democrats in the state are simultaneously angry they cannot get rid of Foxconn quickly enough, angered that Foxconn has responded to the insane political instability by waffling on the number and types of jobs, and complaining that this is all proof they were right all along and Walker was no good at creating jobs.

    The moral of the story seems to be one of the oldest in politics: Agitators will complain about every thing they can, even on both sides of an issues and even with conflicting arguments, if they think that a public perception of chaos will work in their favor.

    If I was a Foxconn executive, I would take this as a lesson that a Communist country is actually a better business environment than a democracy, and re-focus my efforts in a country where nobody really cares if your employees are so stressed-out that they kill themselves with regularity. After all, super-diverse and "green" companies like Apple will hire you whether you are in Wisconsin or China.

  22. Fox Con by Livius · · Score: 1

    It's not like they were subtle about it. They even have "con" in their name.

    1. Re:Fox Con by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So does WisCONsin !
      (I live in WI, and it is a dumb never gonna happen deal)

    2. Re:Fox Con by raftpeople · · Score: 2

      I laughed at both comments :)

  23. The time is now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Foxconn: Rich enough to buy the midwest. If you don't like it, get the hell off their lawn.

  24. Re: Control JEW.S.A. jews then (they own politics) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Scince when did the mental hospital have internet access?

  25. Re: Sorry but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So... your logic is that the dumb ones bring in more money than most nations. It's the dumb ones that somehow create the largest market in the US. The dumb ones who create all these regulations that most other state follows...

    Did you say you lived in Wisconsin first?

  26. Re: Foxconn why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You realize that the US has like a 3-5% unemployment rate? In a country where it is normal for both spouses to work... Clearly a LOT of businesses think it is a great idea to hire Americans.

  27. Republicans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Wisconsin should "thank" former Republican Scott Walker and current politician Donald Trump for the Foxconn mess.

    They put the "con" in Wisconsin.

    1. Re: Republicans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And obviously, Foxconn founders already put the 'con' in Foxconn.

      Without, it would read Foxn, a much less deceitful name for sure, alleging multiple foxes, instead of the original alleging the one who can con a fox!

      aRTee

  28. Re:Foxconn why? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

    They want government to meddle with business in every way,

    Hypocrite. Companies only exist due to government meddling in the first place.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
  29. Re: Foxconn why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And China is a Libertarian paradise?

  30. Oh come on by SocietyoftheFist · · Score: 1

    Making decisions based on the whims of someone that can't believe that Mt Vernon wasn't named after the occupant, you can't really fault them now can you?

  31. Re: Control JEW.S.A. jews then (they own politics) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't work out whether you are a genuinely crazy anti-semite, or cleverly painting anti-semites as crazed, so the more mild variety will think twice as they won't to be associated with this lunacy.

  32. Trump knows more than your average politican by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think Trump knows more than your average American politician. He, and his father, managed the construction of various buildings. It's just that other politicians are better at covering up their ignorance, will repeat lines written by a lobbyist, not get covered by the news media, or stay off the topic.

  33. Re: Sorry but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A handful of smart people - a category you certainly do not belong to - does not make up for millions of angry, paranoid dumb fucks.

  34. Level the playing field by Rastl · · Score: 1

    Since FoxConn isn't actually doing any of what it promised in return for majorly corrupt incentives then vote to rescind them. No more tax breaks. No more illegally diverted lake water. Nothing. Let them reapply for standard breaks open to any company.

    Then see how much they really want to continue this charade. If suddenly they lose their sweetheart deal and the ability to continually string the state government along then I'm guessing they'll decide that they really don't want to have anything to do with Wisconsin.

    This whole thing was a pet project of the then-current state administration who bent over forward for FoxConn so they would look like they were doing something for the state. They weren't. They were doing it for themselves and now that they're out of office all the local resentment towards the deal has some teeth.

  35. Re:"IP theft"... "IP" ... *facepalm* by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    Nice Freudian with the "tief." Your subconscious is more honest than your conscious. That implies you know it is wrong, but you're being paid, so you said it anyways. Or at least, tried to.

  36. Re: Sorry but... by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    Every rural village is full of people who believe they are much more smarter than those fancy hippies from the city.

    That is true in both Wisconsin and California.

  37. Foxconn is Confusing the Hell Out of Wisconsin by n4wff · · Score: 1

    Of course it did. Hell is in Michigan! https://goo.gl/maps/MvQDbDFXbk...

  38. Heaven on Earth? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they've confused 'the hell' out of it, is Wisconsin now heaven on Earth? Thank you Foxconn?

  39. FoxCon is ... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

    ... out-foxing and out-conning Trump.

    --
    It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  40. I did not say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but it does not matter.

    Yes, CA churns more money but that's mostly from shovelling software and services, which cost to create but then cost little to mass-supply, to the masses rather than from actually making things. It's not a sign of superior anything, it's just the result of a certain economic model - a similar one to chewing gum.

    Sure CA is a large market, but its a large state, so again it's not a consequence of brilliance, it's an accident of geography and politics.

    And yes, CA really does indeed create a huge number of insane laws and regulations, which is why so much productive and strategically important raw materials extraction and industrial-scale manufacturing has fled the state. CA can no longer survive without imported workers and imported materials and imported machinery.

    Oh, and here's several you neglected because they do not fit your narrative:

    Wisconsin is always one of the top states for median SAT scores. In 2018 the average SAT score of a Californian was 1055 (531 Eng, 524 Math) and the average for a Wisconsinite was 1291 (642 Eng, 649 Math).

    In Wisconsin, the highschool graduation rate is >88%. In California it is 83%.

    In K-12 testing, Wisconsin students ranked 25th out of the 50 states, but California kids ranked 47th out of 50 - The population of CA not only graduates at a lower rate but they do it with lower test scores.

    CA has more poverty than any other state.

    None of what you argued says anything at all about the intelligence of the average Californian versus a Wisconsinite, which is the doofus argument the earlier poster started.

    Now, as for how dumb you presume me to be and what a hick you think I am...

    I'm a Navy vet who runs a small company in SoCal that does, among other things, avionics for special military applications. I'm not some idiot executive with an MBA, but rather a guy who originally was an AE before adding EE and CE. I cut my teeth on assembly coding and my early "high level" coding was in FORTRAN IV while working on the aerospace degree, and I'm as comfortable with a soldering iron as I am on the flight line or at a military proving ground. I'm not some millenial web dev who thinks Javascript is a serious language. Oh, and I met cows on my grandfather's Wisconsin farm decades ago who made better arguments than you have made here.

    Don't assume that people who live in places like Wisconsin are idiots and that the people of places like NYC, or the Bay Area are geniuses. Something interesting you should consider: Look at the backgrounds of the people NASA historically has selected to be astronauts, particularly in the "glory days" of the program - they are nearly all rural people, the sort you would sneer at, but the sort the pentagon learned in WWII were the best suited to deal with rapidly-changing situations.

  41. I live 2 miles from the Foxconn factory by mark_reh · · Score: 2

    A recent local news article said that Foxconn was starting to lease its land (did it grab it from farmers through imminent domain?) to local farmers.

    I guess some of the build-out plans have changed...

  42. Its in the name by Joviex · · Score: 1

    Any one with third grade reading skills (I know, not everyone here) or above:

    fox CONn