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Lyrics.ch update: Sign the petition
Julien Mercay wrote in
to send us a link to a petition where you
can Express your distaste for what happened to the
Lyrics Server. So go fill it out.
And tell your friends.
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One of the reasons for the petiton is:
"Lyrics sites do not pretend to own the copyright on any of these works, nor do they charge visitors for the viewing of these works."
I would have to say Yes, that's correct (in that they don't pretend to OWN the copyright), but why then actively USE the right to copy (ie send users copies of the lyrics)?
As a musician myself, I have a (strongly) growing distaste for the actions of this "Harry Fox Agency." First, they go after OLGA (the online guitar archive) a guitar tablature site, which hosted independent musician's INTERPRETATIONS of various popular music, which we all hear day-to-day on the radio, TV, in clubs, etc... Now they go after a site which hosts the LYRICS to these same songs which we all hear, day-to-day, in clubs, restaurants, at friends homes, on the radio, etc... Have you ever had a friend ask you "What was that lyric, I didn't catch it??" I have. Sometimes I hear lyrics in songs that I don't quite catch myself. I tell them, when I know. They often tell me, when they know. Is this sharing of info about popular music wrong? If not, why is sharing it with a larger audience, through the web, suddenly a crime? I fail to see how this could POSSIBLY damage performing musicians. I, as a musician, truly hope that the actions of this agency will bring about anger among consumers and producers of music alike, and perhaps give rise to new forms of distribution, whether it comes in the forms of MP3's Liquid Audio, or what have you. As for me, I'm sick of it...
In the old days (for me) we used to pass this kind of information as part of the normal pirated software trade.
Anyone know where a whole copy of this site can be copied?
I mean... gee, we hear them on the radio ALL the time... if we write down the lyrics as we hear them wouldn't that be illegal by these peoples' ideas too?
:-)
:-)
honestly, i think i catch maybe 2% of the lyrics to songs off the bat anyway... sometimes it takes me 10, 20, 40 or even more listenings to actually catch everything (then i forget the beginning by the time i hit the end anyway so i just act like i remember them
I can see where they'd want to get rid of mp3's - I've got a lot and I've also got a burner, but i DON'T have a portable or even a car cd player that'll play mp3's so naturally i conver and burn... course that means that they're out of 12 bucks on a disc that i only wanted to hear ONE song off of anyway... so screw em
"A distributor (regardless of what they distribute) doesn't usually own the copyright of the products it distribute, why then do they use a right to copy?"
Huh? You're confusing the issue. When talking about distribution of material objects, distribution can only take place once the physical copies have been made. In that case, distributing the copies does not violate copyright (though there may be other legal violations). If the distributor *also* made the copies, then they have violated copyright.
But website distribution of text involves making copies. Every time a person downloads the text, a copy is made. That violates copyright.
"Holding a copyright to a work, and holding a right to distribute copies is not the same thing"
Distribution of copies on the web entails the creation of copies. I'm guessing that the lyric server doesn't delete a song's lyrics after they've been viewed. That wouldn't be very useful, would it? Copies are made. Thus, on the web they *are* the same thing.
No, CNN is making the copies -it's their server sending you the information, and they made it available. CNN has copyright, either because they wrote the article, or they paid someone else (such as the Associated Press) for right to copy, so it's okay for *them* to put it up.
If someone else takes a CNN article and puts it on their own website, then they are violating CNN's (or the AP's) copyright.
...why those banner ads are there?
---
g1ffan
Ok, well, if the CNN article, for example, contained a Bill Clinton speech, and commentary, It would be OK to distribute the speech (which is sent all over TV, radio, newspapers, etc..) but not the proprietary CNN commentary. But what about an Alanis Morisette song which is ALSO all over TV, radio, MTV, etc... The song is heard by people all over the place. Because of this, the LYRICS are heard by people all over the place. What is wrong with a web site distributing these often-heard and well-known lyrics in a text format? They are NOT distributing the song itself, just the words to it. How can copyright limit distribution of words which are damn near FORCED into the brains of the public-at-large?? How does this hurt the artists? What do the copyright holders gain?
Good idea to support artists by going to concerts, but a problem I've seen with this is the stupid "service charges" that Ticketbastard tacks on.
Case in point, recently I bought a couple tickets for a rock concert. The face value was $24. I ended up paying $33.75 with out sales tax! It's not a ton, but I'm a student w/o a job so it hurts a little.
I know Pearl Jam, for example, has had an ongoing fight with Ticketmaster and has started using other means of selling tickets. Hopefully, more bands will follow their movement to make shows more affordable to people and to stop big corporations from ripping off their fans.
I always used to open that site up at work or school when i got bored
and look up a song and just singing away to it. I used to get the
whole office or a row of a class to sing along with me....
I am sad to see it gone and urge everyone to sign the petition.
What other place can you get a urge to sing the Mr. Grinch song
and have everyone singing it a few minutes later?
I worked at TicketMaster here in Minneapolis MN
for about a month. I had to sign a contract in
which I agreed to never mention anything about
the company in public so I have to post the as
an AC (see AC accounts are good!). I can tell
you first hand that TicketMaster is an evil
evil company. Not only do they screw over
customers with high "processing fees" they
also screw over the employees. When I was hired
they promised folks would make about 8 dollars
per hour. In fact, the only way you could make
anything near that was to a sell a set number
of "extras" every week. These "extras" were
nothing more than an add for upcoming shows that
TM was selling tickets for and they cost
something like 2 dollars (another ripoff).
The result was that most TM employees made about
4.25 per hour and I quit after about a month
of that crap.
How does this hurt the artists? What do the copyright holders gain?
I have used the lyrics server on several occasions to find out who wrote that song that was stuck in my head so I could buy the CD without having to look like an idiot by singing to the cashier at the CD store. "You know who sings that song that goes 'doey dap adap a doowong dang' or something?"
Anyway it's all about somebody else profiting from their work. This makes the corporations very jelous. They have more money than they know what to do with so they use it to protect their turf.
Were there any mirrors to lyrics.ch?
Copyright law is what it is. The Fox people or whatever are justified under the current legal system to seek damages.
These copyright laws suck shit and do damage to peoples respect of law in general.
Does anyone else get the impression that the fucking mafia is in the business of writing and enforcing laws?
[ripped from http://www.theroc.org/roc-mag/textarch/roc-10/roc1 0-08.htm]
[snip...]
Clinton also has no problems executing a retarded Black man to show he's tough on crime or trashing Rap and Heavy Metal to suck up to the "family values" mob. So whether or not Mr. Bill becomes president, it's time to turn up the heat even more on the RIAA, the PMRC and their fundamentalist Christian supremacist allies. Even if you want Bush out bad enough to vote for Clinton doesn't mean you have to inhale Tipper Gore and the PMRC too. There's no reason to follow Danny Goldberg's example and let her off the hook.
Tipper Gore still comes off like Nancy Reagan; only smarter, more ambitious and therefore way more dangerous. She is a skilled and unrepentant liar, acting as a Trojan horse for the very religious right bigots responsible for the '92 Republican platform. She calls herself a liberal, a feminist even, and insists the PMRC is just a consumer advocate group in the spirit of Ralph Nader. If she kept her word (ha ha ha) and the PMRC concentrated on something like a CONSUMER REPORTS style magazine or newsletter reviewing albums for like-minded parents, I would have no problem with them. I might even offer to help review the records, in hope of providing a more balanced opinion.
But balanced opinion is not what the PMRC wants. Tipper Gore denied to my face on Oprah Winfrey that the PMRC has any connections with the religious right. Yet her main partner in the PMRC thought-crime is #1 Bush hatchet-man James Baker's wife, Susan. Mrs. Baker is a born-again fundamentalist Christian who told the NEW YORK TIMES, "I am God's instrument..." whose purpose in life is to "Live out the Gospel." More importantly she sits on the board of Focus On The Family, one of the most powerful religious right hate groups, whose agenda includes banning abortion, mandatory school prayer and Donald Wildmon-style boycott attacks aimed at TV shows they don't happen to like, such as Murphy Brown and even The Simpsons. The PMRC (Pushy Mothers of Rich Children?) has also been linked to Pat Robertson, Phyllis Schlafly, Rev. Wildmon and far-right hate groups with anti-semetic leanings such as Back In Control; a group founded by former L.A. cops that has claimed to cure wayward teenagers through "de-punk" and "de-metaling" techniques. Their late 80's brochure to parents called the Jewish Star of David "occult graffiti," and listed black clothing and high-top tennis shoes as signs of possible occult possession. Tipper Gore endorsed them in her book, RAISING PG KIDS IN AN X-RATED SOCIETY, a how-to-guide for cultural vigilantes, that is now reissued by Bantam Books.
[snip...]
It is the PMRC's agenda that's led to blacklisting artists and their music via labeling, concert shutdowns, attacks on retailers and radio stations [and web sites], the state legislatures that would make mere use of a Tipper sticker label a legal admission of obscenity. People like myself, 2 Live Crew, GWAR and even Bobby Brown have been charged with obscenity and dragged through court because some self-proclaimed moral vicar doesn't like our music. It's obvious who got the ball rolling here and what their real motives behind record labeling are. When asked about my trial over the Dead Kennedy's "Frankenchrist" album, Tipper Gore told the METRO in Nashville (January 8, 1988), "I'd like to take credit for it." Gee thanks!
The Vice President's Mansion gave Marilyn Quayle far more power and visibility than she ever deserved. Expect the PMRC's anti-music war in what Pat Buchanan calls, "the Culture War" to be front and center in a Clinton administration. It is through Mrs. Gore that the religious right will keep their foot in the door of the White House. She does not deserve the time of day until she resigns and disavows the PMRC. And what about Hilary Clinton? Has anyone ever asked her if she's with the PMRC? Her WAL-MART ties are no secret, so I fear the worst.
But please don't sit out the whole election because of Clinton. Keep fighting back by electing cool people to state and local offices; boycott PMRC supporters like 7-UP, EXXON, COORS, AT&T, AMERICAN AIRLINES, HALLMARK GREETING CARDS and other religious right backers like BLOCKBUSTER VIDEO and DOMINO's PIZZA. Of course boycott all stores (especially chains) who won't stock controversial music and won't sell Tipper-stickered records to minors. The power is ours! Let's use it. Bigots don't keep music retailers in business, we do.
The other side are true believers ready to work as hard as they can for as long as it takes to get what they want. We must do the same, only harder. They learned their tactics from our side in the 60's and we have not yet begun to fight. Keep the heat on, and keep biting the ankles of the RIAA, the President, Tipper Gore and the PMRC. Don't settle for business as usual. Besides, it's fun.
"Let Freedom Ring (through a stack of Marshalls.)"
--JELLO BIAFRA
The Lyrics server was my best friend when I needed to find out the name/artist of a song and all I knew were a few lyrics. A few key words and a quick search routine and I had a list of matching songs. Using it I have found at least 30 songs that I have been searching out for a long time, some as long as 10 years. And guess what I did next, I ran out and purchased that tape (cheaper than CD's for just 1 song)
There is no other resource that comes close. Blockbuster music used to have a nice book that cross referenced song titles by artist, so at least if I knew the song name, or could guess really good, I had a shot at getting the name. Last time I went in there a few days ago, the book was a horrible mess, all out of order and completely useless as a reference guide. And don't bother asking employees of the name of a song by singing it to them, I'm only 25, but most of the blockbuster employees I've tried to get help from don't seem to have ever heard of anything thats older than 5 years.
And yes, I suppose that sheet music might feel a slight sting, but have you ever tried to find sheet music for less popular songs?? Good luck.
Sure, technically, this might violate the rights of the copyright holder, but so far I have yet to hear any of the artists complaining. What artist wouldn't be flattered to know that people are spreading around the lyrics to their songs. Its the record companies themselves who are bitching, and for no good reason. They may have the exclusive rights to all aspects of the industry, but they don't have to enforce it unless its obviously cutting into their profits margin in some way. Any attempt to alienate customers by depriving them of some service that the companies have no interesting in pursuing has got to be the worst thing ANY company can do. You're supposed to kiss the customer's ass every chance you get. If you don't, then they start looking elsewhere. When you have the industry monopolised, you can get away with it, but the music industry wouldn't display such obvious acts of desparation if that monopoly wasn't in danger.
-Restil
restil@alignment.net
oh man.. it's almost a sin to shutdown a site like this...
..damn
on the brighter side
how about that Miss Lyrics of Jan 99.. lol
miss bonnie burton.. and a webgeek too lol
Posted by Mr. Fingers:
I'm steamed about losing lyrics.ch, and it's going to be a pain in the ass and wallet to find lyrics for my dance band. But eventually, the lyrics service will resurface as an amply financed and legal entity.
The copyright law is out of my league - won't even try to argue that. But it seems to me that the lyrics server's 100 million hits a day illustrates a viable market for a central lyrics database.
After it all shakes out, I can see CDnow negotiating license agreements with music publishers to distribute lyrics with the record industry's blessing. CDnow would gain ad revenues and could also tie the lyrics to CDs or even direct downloads. Lyrics would become an additional hook for new and repeat visitors to their site.
It's just a matter of time...
Yeah, it's a pain in the ass to sign a petition.
Do it.
Here's a guy who has been busting his ass keeping a server up for you, and a company that *YOU SUPPORT* with *YOUR MUSIC DOLLARS* is trying to *criminally prosecute* this guy.
That takes serious balls. Said balls require kicking.
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend.
I agree and want to sign, but it asks for my street address where I actually live to be distributed to that music association. Is this like giving your ID to the SPA for a license audit? Even though I live in the back woods, I do not want the hassle of being asked whats on my computer if a group shows up at my door and wait for a search warrant when I say no.
Damn, I'll sign anyway. This is war. If they want to fight on my doorstep, let them come on over and play!
I agree with the petition. I have bought many music CD's in the past, and most of the time, the lyrics were NOT included... So where else could I get it than from a lyrics site like this?
Oh, and what's next? They're going to shut down libraries too? In some libraries there are some music CDs which can be borrowed like books...
And last, I think this (lyrics.ch) should qualify as 'fair use' of copyrighted material...
I think that Harry Fox et al already know that quite a few people visited lyrics.ch. I think this is why they shut them down, because they saw this as an infringement of copyrights and a denial of revenue, or something. If it was some shitty little page, they wouldn't have noticed or cared.
Why do I bring this up? Because all this petition is really saying is, "I liked the lyrics server." They already know that people liked it through the statistics. They really don't care. It also says "I disagree with what you're doing," but Harry Fox isn't trying to be popular. Really, I hope that people who sign this petition are only doing so to show their support, not because they think that it will do anything.
Now, if there was some way of boycotting this group, something real could happen. But I'm not sure if this is actually possible.
...what we could do is:
you've a cd without lyrics? call the record-label and ask them where to get the lyrics when not from lyrics.ch. i think: for that money, that they want to have for cds nowadays, we've the right to get the lyrics. i'll try next week with some cds of me, maybe if there are enough people calling labels and there are enough people signing the petition, it'll help, to get lyrics.ch to work again. why using warez? that doesn't change anything. it's my right, to get the lyrics, isn't it? i buy a cd,... i buy the music and the text!!!
Thanks /. for keeping me informed on this. The lyrics server was something I was very sad to see go.
/. rocks!
-kf6nux
This is just more confirmation that the music industry execs care less about their customers and more about flexing their legal muscles just because they can. Heck, this recent move doesn't even benefit THEM!
By industry groups tearing down public service sites such as these, all they are doing is angering their customer base. This will ultimately result in less business for them, due to customers seeking any other source of music just to spite them.
They may be trying to reduce copyright infringements and music piracy, but every time they pull one of these they just increase it.
Long Live MP3!
Life is but a mist upon the horizon.
ok...i've never visited the lyrics server, myself, but as long as he puts proper credits on his lyrics pages, how the hell is that illegal? or more importantly, who fucking cares?