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Nintendo May Sue N64 Emulator Creators
ewhac writes
"According to TechWeb, Nintendo
has not ruled out the possibility of suing
the authors of UltraHLE, the Nintendo-64 emulator for
PCs with Voodoo graphics cards. Nintendo holds the
dubious opinion that the emulator is illegal, predicated
on the assumption that the emulator would not have been
possible without circumventing the security chip. (Circumvention
of copy-protection/authentication systems was recently
criminalized in the United States, with fines up to $500K.)
"
Yeah that makes sense, make everyone buy a $1000 computer instead of a $100 console. Yep.. perfect /. logic.
As I recall - the law DID permit some forms of reverse engineering! Thus, their claim that bypassing the security chip may still be permissible! Don't have the text of the law in front of me, nor am I a lawyer so take all of the above with a large grain of salt... This is one time being an AC is more than convenient ;-)
I own a N64 and I like many of the games I have
purchased but this really makes me dislike
Nintendo. How about we dig up a email address
for Nintendo and send some letters telling them
exactly how mad this makes users. No corporation
should be able to threaten programmers with
lawsuits over someting like this.
Nintendo is denying Reality Man and Epsilon rights endowed by our creator, the right to re-engineer, a right just as natural as freedom of the press and freedom of speech. What the stupid bastards should do is sell the games binaries from a website and get rich.
> Circumvention of copy-protection/authentication systems was recently criminalized in the United States, with fines up to $500K
Ever occured to anyone that the guys might *not* be Merkins? (Just like many other authors of emulators)
I was under the impression that in order to sue you not only have to prove that they broke a law, but that some damages were caused. Considering they've brought up the concept of this lawsuit so quickly, I find it doubtfull that they could gather sufficient evidence to prove damages so early?
This whole situation reminds me somewhat of the Microsoft Antitrust case. Nintendo is trying to keep the console and the games as one set without selling them as such. I would wonder if they don't make exclusive production deals with game companies....
Nor can they be positive that it was really them
on IRC. It could have just as well have been me
on irc spoofing their IP so well that no one would
have noticed....
Cant really use anything as evidence.
are in the Wired news coverage of this. Has stuff on how you get the ROMs, and what the legal issues are./ 17653.html
http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story
If linux can run on a palm pilot it can run on a console. Too much overhead is'nt an excuse it's a challange!
I believe that the folks who helped smuggle the slaves out of the south during the underground railroad days were breaking the law too...
Just because something is illegal doesn't necessarily make it wrong.
- posting anonymously because I forgot who I am
I remember reading that DreamCast was gonna run on Windows CE, but then again Windows does'nt count as an OS, does it?
Reverse engineering is a legal method to "clone" hardware. If this wasn't a legal method of "cloning" hardware, then we wouldn't have all of our "clone" PC's around.
These guys who wrote the emulator didn't write the emulator to make money. They also didn't write it to encourage copying N64 games. They wrote it because they could.
Shoot, Nintendo should hire these guys for something... Like some damn decent games!
Like the Japanese should be complaining about people emulating technology. Give me a fkn bucket!
-ANC
Piracy, shmiracy. Robin Hood was a stinking pirate -- we should hang him.
Your definition of "right" and "wrong" obviously stops at the law of the USA, right? You look no further than the gimps in Congress to define your ethics.
You are a sheep, and I pity you.
Go get QuakeII/Half-life, and play it on the net!
What is wrong with running linux on a console? It would kick butt -- that is what it would do. It is times like these that I wish I knew what I was doing so I could help with the port myself :)
BTW I heard somewhere that people were trying to port linux to the N64 (it may have been a rumor.)
If Sega has half a brain (and judging by the way they killed the saturn they may not) they will release ram expansion for the SD (like the ss and N64 has.) With more ram it might really be possible!
One would think that it would be great for Nintendo and Sony if you could play their games on pc's and macs. After all, they make more money on licensing than on selling consoles so it would seem to make sense if every pc could play their games. However, one must understand that there are many problems in the pc game market. For example there is no standard platform in the pc world whereas on the console world every nintendo developer knows _exactly_ what the platform is. We even get some glimpse of this problem on the UltraHLE. For example, it only supports 3dfx cards instead of supporting TNT and ATI etc. In the pc world we have to deal with A3D and EAX and just plain Direct3D. Having one defined platform makes it easy for developers and that's what Nintendo and Sony really want-not 5 zillion games trying to do a mediocre job on 5 zillion pc configurations
You know, we are not required to stand idly by while this happens...
Lets find an email address, and let Nintendo know that this behavior annoys their client base...
Someone should start up a web site with a petition sign up.
And if they don't listen, lets start a boycott!!!
Seriously -- As individuals we can't do much. But as a group, we have the power to bankrupt
Nintendo. Lets start using that power....
The coders of the EMU made it for piracy, its all a big con!, they faked their SHUTDOWN to make it look like they didnt indend that!!
What complete moron would make an EMU and not think that it would be made for piracy, common! wake up stupids!!
And their first version is 1.00 complete and working, no 3 yaers of betas like the other programs, just BOOM here it is!!
I bet you SONY probly hired some coders to do it to piss of ninendo and they fake the whole thing and make it look like some backyard dudez did this with no knowledge, or its some X-nintendo programmers that are pissed of and want to piss em off, only they would know it all inside and beable to code it 100% working V1.00 day 1 with no betas....
its obvious man!!
Its a good prog too.
-CB
is it me or is america full of morons
LOOK, you dont buy a PC to play console games, IF you already have your voodoo P300mhz PC, then you can play some console games for free, its another option dude!!!! comprehendo!!! jeez man!
Sure I can buy a N64 here for $100 but the games cost shit loads too, i already have a voodoo machine, so i can try some games and then go, yeah well crap didnt like it, and forget it...
Its a convenience factor if anything man, grow up and stop using childish 'yaeh that makes sense' shit when thats not the reason for it!!!!
adios
So, in a desperate attempt to keep the players appeased, they string them along with promises of vaporware (ala the SNES CD) and one failed system after another (Virtual Boy, anyone?).
Yet each system Nintendo releases lessens the market share of the once-great company. It's all been downhill since the NES, with Sega and Sony taking larger and larger chunks out of the sluggish giant. And there's no end in sight, and no new system in the near future to place their hopes on. And new games are still few and far between on their much-hyped and ultimately underpowered system.
So in a desperate bid to keep themselves from being swallowed up whole by the world of cheap PCs with nonproprietary standards, they have to respond to any threat with intimidation and lawsuits. It's the only hope they have left...
What I don't understand is why the authors don't just release it as open source. This would seem to solve all their problems, as Nintendo would realize that suing them would be pointless since ANYBODY could build on what they have already done (and do it in a country with friendly IP laws to boot!)
Somehow I think that Nintendo won't ever actually get around to suing the UltraHLE creators. Especially if all they have is this copy protection circumvention crap (which IIRC was part of the DMCA and probably hasn't been tested in court yet).
If you think about it, there is little difference between reverse engineering a proprietary system and defeating a security measure. Hell, one could claim that the Windoze API was a 'security feature'.
Nah actually they're doin the wrong thing the right way. The whole problem with the Digital Millenium Copyright Act is that it has the Federal Government spend tax payer dollars to protect a private corporation's commercial advantage. Surely law enforcement agencies have enough work enforcing law designed to protect citizenry without jumpin to the aid of any "poor" multi-million dollar corporation that feels it's monopoly is endangered?
How come cable descramblers are legal to manufacture, buy, and sell? Sure, they could be used to steal premium channels off of the cable system, but they have valid uses (i.e. hotels with satellite dishes that charge for premium channels). The reason is cable descramblers don't steal cable services, people steal cable services. The makers of the cable descramblers didn't do anything wrong. They created a piece of hardware. It's like trying to blame Smith and Wesson because some psycho-path killed your family with a Smith and Wesson gun.
I guess all of these IBM 'clones' that we are using are illegal too. So much for Compaq, Dell, etc. After all they are 'emulating' the IBM BIOS.
I guess AMD and Cyrix are out of the x86 business. After all, they are emulating Intels chip with their own chips. And since they aren't going to have the 'Big Brother Inside' ID that the PIII's are going to have, I guess they could be double sued, once for cloning Intels design, and the other for 'bypassing' the security features. Hmm sounds kinda like Nintendo vs UltraHLE.
And onto the ROM issue...
If it's illegal to 'backup' software that you legally own, and to use that backup on a live system, then I'm guilty everytime I turn on my computer with the 'Shadow BIOS' option set. Shadow BIOS copys the BIOS ROM chip into system memory and runs it there (for speed reasons). Hmmm, sounds a lot like what an emulator does with a ROM.
GeeZ! WHAT IS UP WITH THESE DOODZ??!?! they go aroudn beating up on programmers just czu they are too stoopid to make software for PC. LISTEN UP NINTENDO, SOFTWARE SHOULD VBE FREE! they are bjust a bunch of 0;'s and 1's and you hve no right to charge us frickin 80$ fora stupdi game! If we programmers can make emulators that is fine, we need for backups and shti! What happens if my dad shvoes a cartridge up my mom's ass/?!?? They should be happy we make copies so they don't have to redistribute when carts get lost like taht! I can go to my buddies and get ROM and play the game/ WaReZ isn't a problem , the problem is nintendo is stupid and only wants $. they don't care about us gamerz at all so it is OK to take from them, they are just like M$
-WaReZdUdE
If you disassemble an N64 cart you'll find that the "copy protection" is completely separate from the ROM chip, as it has been since the first Nintendo Entertainment System. N's "copy protection" system (at least in the NES and SNES) is a two-chip solution: one chip is in the cart, and the other chip is hooked up to the CPU reset line and one address line in the console. You can actually see how it worked in the NES case if you examine a "new" (cart plugs into the top) NES's circutry. You'll find that it doesn't even have the protection chip.
IOW, dumping an N64 cart doesn't even involve the protection chip!
Seems to me Nintendo should hire them. UltraHLE is quite a feat of programming. These guys obviously know their N64. They stopped the project, because they disliked the pirate aspect. So why not hire them instead of sue them?
so? heard of anonymous e-mail? or freemail accounts?
besides...even if someone used their isp's mail account (yes it would be a bad idea) - isp's generally don't give out personal information to all who ask
Alot of these software emulators, wrappers (glide->d3d), and other software that could
lead to litigaton are not distributed being
distributed in such a fashion that would cause
the fastest propagation possible.
To me it seems that if I were going to write
a peice of code that could possibily cause a
controversy or legal battle, but that I felt
was sorely needed or just a cool project that
people might like, I would distribute it in the
following way:
-Burn a number (say 10) of CD-R's with the
binary, the source, and the docs.
-Mail these anonymously to webmasters inside and
outside of the country (whatever one your in).
-Instruct the webmasters the decision is up to
them whether or not they want to post it for
download, but if they do they should all do it
simultaneoulsy on such and such a data.
to
-Then on that date, flood the appropriate USENET
news groups with announcements.
IMHO it seems that too many of these folks who
do this stuff insisit on doing getting recognition
and bragging rights rather then getting it out
there and in usable form (or in such a form) that
the open source community can manipulate it.
It's allowed under EU law in some situations, particularly for software. The law is kind of hazy though, and countries like Britain tend to side with the US on such issues, instead of becoming good little member states of a new Federal Republic of Europe.
Having said that, it is still possible to get away with a lot more, and there isn't quite so many lawyers. (although "open with hand" notices are now appearing on european soft drink bottle screw-tops, along with "contains nuts" signs on bags of peanuts, so maybe the vultures are moving in...)
Anyway, were the authors in question American???
A) If a crime was committed, it's the desmesne of the criminal justice system. Pursuing litigation
because of someone breaking a criminal law is not
a valid legal posture.
B) The burden of proof is on the plaintiff. I see no way for the plaintiff to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant(s) could not have independently generated their emulator. This is a logical exclusivity problem.
You know, it sometimes sickens me that people sit in front of their computers and argue about free software as if it is a basic human right and necessity! No one _needs_ software to survive, it is a luxury, just like a car, a computer, a tv, etc. Before you flame me, I run Linux and love it. But I don't do it b/c it's free, I run it b/c it works better than any other OS out there. I payed $50 for my copy of RedHat b/c they deserve the money for putting an effort. My point...go do something more useful with your energy...you know like go fight for free health care or food for all...something that might actually solve some problems instead of a bunch of 1's and 0's.
What is needed is a cheap PCI card that has a single chip for interfacing and a ribbon cable leading to a cartridge slot. That would cost less than a single game and nullify the ROM piracy issue: plug and play. Sure...it would also make getting the ROM images into the computer trivial, but that isn't all that difficult now, it seems. Another thing...arguing that you just want to "Try the game out before plunking down the big money for it" is just plain hand-waving bullshit. Go to the video store. Rent the game. Realize that if it sucks, you just finished it in 3 days for $6, a savings of 90%. It is interesting that in a culture (/.) where amazing things (like Linux) are free, a lot of people want all amazing things for free. -J
Nintendo were trying to pretend to the kiddies that they're console was "cutting edge". All those playgorund arguments - "My PSX can do more billions of polygons per second than your N64" etc. Now people realise that 50 UKP gfx cards can beat them with no problem. If you know hardware this is nothing new, but when the little WaReZ ratz get their hands on it it becomes a big deal. The "secret" is out. N64 is mediocre. Most people new this as soon as it came out.
This not only is a bad PR move but it's just plain bad business. Anyone who owns an emulator could buy Nintendo games. This would significantly help the sales, especially since a lot of people have Nintendo's competitor's stuff like Sony, Sega (if they're still around), etc.
While the BIOS in clones represent a form of emulation, there was no proven theft of IBM IP. A different implementation of the same specs is okay. The key point, however, is that the clone BIOS did not really do anything to override copyright protection. Providing a means for overriding copyright protection is illegal, and is (hopefully, I think) the central issue of the NES and Sony complaints.
There recently was talk (or actual action) of ppl suing gun manufacturers for crimes committed using their guns. The NRA and the gun manufacturers are circling the wagons right now.
Some chip makers have licenses from Intel to make clones.
Its legal to backup software that you own.
Don't know a lot about the cable descramblers so I won't comment.
Another fine example of our pubic school system.
Uh-huh! And every parent will buy their 7 year old a $100 console game machine so the child can spend all day and night glued to the stupid machine. We will be breeding sheer geniuses.
What and have competent people on their payroll? You don't want the rest of their employees to feel inadequate do you?
No wonder Nintendo of America HQ is located near Redmond Washington.
Fair enough.. however, regardless of the location of the parent company, it seems grossly unfair, as, in these situations the law effectively sides with the party who can afford the astronomical legal bills.
All the US citizens i know are good people, but i think (and this is just a personal opinion) that the US justice system needs to take a good look at how the current lawyers-feeding-frenzy your courts seem to have turned into are serving the principles set out in your constitution.
how much more of this torture will need to happen before people realise that copyrights and patents are failed concepts that can never work in the real world? look at the consequences, there is no end in sight until we address the core of the issues.
I think it's the game licensing issue that is the big one. If ninetendo lose control of their platform, then how do they force developers to distribute their games through them, and pay them royalties on every copy sold?
'I developed this game using the UltraHLE emulator, so i don't have to pay nintendo a damn thing.'
Fair enough. This is what Nintendo and Sony are *really* afraid of
Even if emulators were made only for piracy,
the act of making emulators by itself still doesn't amount to piracy.
'nuff said.
Of course it would be the american divisions of these companies filing suit. Only under bent american law could you sue over something this rediculous. As long as they didn't copy N's code verbatim for their emu (which I don't think they could do to if it were to work properly) then they are just developing another way to play the game. We're all big boys now, and it's still up to you to support the game author and purchase the game you wish to play. They should not be able to hold someone responsible for other's actions in this case. Blaming them for promoting piracy is a whiny, unjustified, crybaby thing to do. If the law condones this sort of action, then it's pure hipocracy. Economy is based on improving on other's ideas and coming up with different ways to do the same thing. If this weren't true, companies would have a stranglehold on particular market. Tissues would only be made by Kleenex, cars only by Ford, etc. Would this mean that Ford could sue me for putting one of their engines in my Chevy? I should hope not.
-Lord Crass
>an emulator is not a device that lets you pirate ROMs.
Yeah, but I wish it was. Then I would *definitely* get download one.
Senzuri
Oh, so we should just ignore it and not try to stop it?
Hey, it's been happening for centuries...and it's not going to stop now. What kind of cop out is that?
Get off your lazy ass and go do something with your worthless life!
It's like saying: "well, people have been murdered and raped and wiped out entire populations through genocide for centuries...so we might as not have any laws against it because people will still do it".
Once you get out in the real world and away from mommy and daddy, get a job (fat chance with your attitude...other than McDonalds) and work up a little savings, then have it ripped off...remember what you said here. Hey, that's human nature dude!
I'm only content in the fact that a sociopath like you will no doubt turn to crime because he couldn't sustain a job, get caught and sent to prison where he'll get it up the ass every night from his cell-mate.
I sleep better at night knowing this will happen to you.
Well, if you haven't realized.. few people build or own an N64 -> PC link. I have no opinion on the majority of this issue, but I do know enough to say that your an idiot if you dont think emulators are mainly used for piracy. (That is, cartridge emualtors. PSX emulators are a different story.)
--bugg
Then they can go sue other authors for DarcNes, ZSNES, SNES9x, etc. Just because the N64 is a current system don't make anything different. Nintendo should just sell ROMS and drop consoles altogether!
I think Nintendo should step back and look at the situation. If they are running scared that their console has just been rendered obsolete by high-level software running on a general-purpose computer, then i suggest they start working on a better console.
:)
UltraHLE is out there now, so theres not much they can do about that. Suing the authors will do no good at all. the US's apparently litigation-centric society makes me laugh.
Playstation Mods have been around for years now, and frankly, i wouldn't own a PSX if i couldn't pirate games for it. At the time i bought my gaming console, my purchase decision was solely based on the ease of which i could pirate games.
The main reason why there is so much software, and `so many people who know how to use it is the fact that it is so freely available. I have never worked at a company, or met anybody who owns a computer, who doesn't have at least one piece of pirated software.
Lets face it, nobody has come up with a copy-protection scheme that thwarts everybody, and the one that did show some (albeit limited) potential with Intels P3 IDs has already been removed for fear of privacy infringements.
There is nothing illegal about an emulator, as long as it doesn't use Nintendo code or hardware.
I guess their main fear is losing control of the licensing and distribution of games which will run on the Nintendo or Nintendo-emulator platform.
They have a number of options:
Produce new consoles sufficiently advanced that no general purpose computer can emulate their speed (a futile effort)
focus on the licensing and distribution of high quality games that will run on *any* platform with their own Nintendo Virtual Machine (probably pretty viable)
Ignore the problem, as it is essentially limited to those with expensive computers and high-bandwidth internet connections. (obviously this will change rapidly, but then, so are the consoles)
Suing the authors will only draw attention to their heavy handed tactics (Sony only became a major force in consoles because Nintendo dicked them over majorly on a deal) and will simply send the emulator community further underground. It's like the RIAA vs Mp3 files. Like the US Government vs. people who smoke marijuana.
Despite heavy legal action on all these fronts, essentially nothing has changed, and there are more emulators, MP3s and pot-smokers now than ever before.
This case will be interesting in defining what 'emulation' is considered by the government to be.. it'd be nice for Netscape to sue Microsoft for unlawfully 'emulating' their browser
Hey, i'm just glad i live on the other side of the planet from the US.
Regards
-Pete
Okay maybe I jumped the gun a little (but I wanted to be first post). I think that the ROMS should be sold after the system is defunct, it's a cheap market. Maybe no consoles was a bit harsh, I do own a NES, A SNES, A Game boy, a PSX, and a N64. But if I can run the games on my PC I prefer to do so cuz of the advantages the emu's give over the consoles. Maybe the big companies (Nintendo, Sony, and Sega even though Sega sucks should release their own emu's and just charge the same price for it as the consoles, or a little more and see if the conveinience factor lives. Not to get me wrong though, I love the free emu's too. Maybe the best thing would be a console system based on linux, then an emu would'nt even be an issue and tux could join the ranks of Mario, Sonic, and Crash Bandicoot!
^o^ wishful thinking!!!!
Pay attention to the arguments, people.
No one is lending any credibility to the Free software movement by lumping in emulators which may be ilegal by nature since the ROM images that must be used to use the emulator bypassed Nintendo's security features. Maybe UltraHLE did not do this, but if it did, it's ilegal.
This is not like Sony, it's not a clean-room reverse engineering thing where the actual retail
media containing the copy-protection can be put inside a different machine and read. I dont know the details but if someone had to subvert a Nintendo copy protection scheme to get access to the ROM, it's ilegal. Real Simple. Anything else is piracy.
If you want to pirate roms and psx games, go right ahead, it's within your rights to do so. But dont complain when the authorities try to take that right away, they have the law on their side.
Posted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
"Unless they already own the cartridge for the N64, $0. That is the piracy... use of merchandise that is being sold without having paid for it, or something like that. "
That is not their obligation. You don't sue Colt because some nut decides to take an AR-15 and mow down school children with it.
Their product is (as far as we can tell) legal. If People choose to use it for illegal ends that's not their problem. Nor is it their responsibility.
Nintendo is scared out of their pants because an Emulator for their flagship product will put a serious dent in their bottom line. Do you think they care if that competitive product is legal or not? No, Nintendo is using their might and money to bully these people into de-inventing their product.
LK
Disclamer: the following is not necessarily accurate legal information. The author is not responsible for any damages caused by the implementation of his word.
Despite what Nintendo claims about the release of UltraHLE, it appears that this program has no code to circumvent security measures. Even if Nintendo were to prove that there is no code to enforce them (which, perhaps there is none) there is no grounds for suit. An international treaty was recently ratified by the government which does, indeed, ban the use of technologies which circumvent anti-piracy measures. However, as with all laws, there must be intent. If the authors never intended to bypass these procedures, Nintendo cannot request damages.
Also, as was determined by the suit "Sega vs. Accolade", it is legal to reverse engineer a computer for development purposes so long as no Nintendo code was used. So, the implimentation of anti-piracy measures would constitute a violation. In other words, the authors could possibly be found to infringe on Nintendo's copyright had they used Nintendo's code. If Nintendo presses charges on these grounds protected quite clearly by the new treaties, they could lose the suit and could also have a suit returned by the authors
Just my two cents
Steve Sawyer majeredb8@hotmail.comPosted by Lord Kano-The Gangster Of Love:
Two points. Even though this is not the correct forum for a debate of the flaws or merits of Gun Control, I'm going to respond to your ignorance with truth.
First, none of the civil suits against gunmakers which try to hold them financially responsible for the criminal actions of others have been successful.
Second, firearms are used decisively more often for LEGAL activities than illegal ones. 2.5 million times per year, firearms are used to thwart crimes.
LK
Posted by dbeutel:
;-)
>Uh-huh! And every 7 year old will want a new >$2000 PC for Christmas. Sure.
> Actually, the reverse should be done. >A cheap, console-like appliance, that would let people do what
they do on the computer, like surfing.
> WebTV anyone?
Ooh, boy... now he's got me started on my WebTV kick. These boxes are STUPID. If all you're doing on your computer is BROWSING the web, then buy a set-top box. Ever hear of DOWNLOADING programs, music, etc... like to see you download new software for your WebTV. Using the web for research? How in the heck do you get the information into your computer. You have to print it out and then re-type it... what's the point. With $399 computers from MicroCenter now available, there's no reason to buy a set-top box.
I know this was OT, but I just had to vent... haven't had a chance to go off on webtv lately...
(P.S.... and you can't run Linux on a WebTV;-)
All console systems have an OS of some sort. They usually are in the form of a BIOS and OS slammed together, but there is an OS. Game developers would have to write software to talk to all of the components of a console if this didn't exist. This is also part of the reason Nintendo and companies like it are miffed. Some of the emu authors who stray more to the dark side of things have distributed ROM images of the systems (NOT the games, but the system itself). It *IS* illegal to distribute the ROM of a system.
Large print giveth, and the small print taketh away
If I walked into MS and take some of their code and release it onto the internet, that is stealing and it is illegal.
If I bought Microsoft Office and decided to write a program that will open up Office documents, manipulate them and run Office plug in applications, that is called being innovative. There are no laws against that. In fact, you could probably put up a case that it is monopolistic to make a product that others can not compete with...
Stop your Microsoft thinking and get back to the real world.
Large print giveth, and the small print taketh away
The computer you are sitting at right now probably would not exist if Compaq didn't win in court against IBM. Compaq reverse-engineered IBM's ROM BIOS and created one that worked, in every way, just like IBM's.
Thus started the clones.
Thus spoke Zarathustra.
Large print giveth, and the small print taketh away
...because no law can get overturned and stricken from the books until it is challenged in court, and the court rules the law to be invalid.
Cases brought by the gov't are often dropped if they threaten to result is certain laws being taken off of the books. An example are anti-bigomy laws (which define marriage as a union of exactly two people). When people of islamic/mormon/etc. faith get the gov't after them for violating bigomy laws, they *always* eventually back down if they fail to intimidate the involved parties to dissolve their marriage (at least on paper). Why? Because anti-bigomy laws flie in the face of Amendment I: "Freedom of Religion" Now gov't wants to look good by keeping these laws around. And they make sure they stay there by never letting them go to trial.
"I bet you SONY probly hired some coders to do it to piss of ninendo
and they fake the whole thing and make it look like some backyard
dudez did this with no knowledge"
Bah, if you're going to put forward a conspiracy theory, may as well make it interesting.
*I* reckon Nintendo wrote UltraHLE. Think - existing emulators weren't good enough
or relevant enough to modern high-profile consoles to capture the public and media interest. In order to get
a test case with which they could set a precedent and go on to crush other emulators,
they needed a high quality emulator for a current console, to use as a strawman.
The reverse-vampires were involved somewhere, too...
If they're in the right Nintendo will have to leave them alone. If they're in the wrong, they're software pirates and Nintendo has the right to pursue them.
(a) Nintendo has so much money that if these people go to court (which I doubt they will), they will almost certainly be found to be 'pirates' even if they can produce God Himself in court to testify for them.
(b) People don't seem to realize it, but emulation really is a Cool Thing to code. Emulation!=Piracy. Emulation==Making One Computer Think It's Another. It may be that there's no way to legally create an N64 emulator, because Nintendo keeps too tight a hold on the specs. IMO, that's just obnoxiousness on Nintendo's part.
(c) Illegality does not imply Wrongness. Especially these days when companies can buy custom-built laws. I do not personally pirate software but that doesn't mean that I think that (eg) copying a game you own onto a computer disk for your own use deserves the sort of retribution that it can legally receive. Software piracy laws have passed the point of absurdity and are now living in some little fantasy world of their own on the other side.
Daniel
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
You're arguing five things here (as far as I can tell) but I appreciate the way you tried to trick us into believing that they're synonymous by mixing them together.
:-)
:-) ) Obviously, Nintendo and software companies would love it if I had to pay for all my software again when I got a new computer (well, not Nintendo in this case), or if I couldn't make backup copies (what, your ROM is toasted? Buy a new one!). And in fact, I believe that the 'copy-protection' stuff and Nintendo's licenses now make this illegal. So (perhaps) it is illegal. But it is not wrong and I am appalled by FUD-ish attempts to raise moral outrage against it.
(a) Pirating ROMs is illegal
No-brainer.
(b) 'Pirating' ROMs is Wrong.
I put quotes around pirating because AFAIK, what Nintendo is complaining about is not piracy but the copying of ROMs. This is not the same thing, in my understanding. Copying ROMs is when someone copies a ROM to (eg) a file image. Piracy is when that someone then gives or sells that image to another someone. There is a huge difference there! One should be entirely legal by any reasonable standard, the other is much hazier (although around here people will argue that both should be legal but I'm not going there
(c) Making emulators is illegal
The crux of your argument here is (summarized):
Copying ROMs is illegal. They must have copied ROMs to mke the emulator. Therefore they are evil, villanous software pirates.
A couple of possibilities come to mind (although I don't know the specifics of the case)
First: They did copy ROMs and bypass the copy-protection scheme when making the emulator.
Since I'm only dealing with legalities here..you're right. But I'm not sure that makes the emulator itself illegal. No really! The emulator is just a bunch of code that acts like an N64. If it doesn't contain any copyrighted Nintendo information, and doesn't itself bypass Nintendo security devices, I don't see how it can be illegal in and of itself. Only the creation of it involved an illegal act. It may be impossible to use it legally--BUT THIS TOO MIGHT BE POSSIBLE!!
Second: They didn't copy ROMs. Then, you ask, how did they make the emulator? I assume Nintendo has released specs for people to write games for the N64. Using those specs, it should be able to create an emulator that will run N64 games.
Third: They didn't copy ROMs and they couldn't get specs. In this case, assuming they have equipment to make their own ROMs, they still could have done it. It would be tedious, but I believe it would be possible to reverse engineer the N64 by creating their own ROM images, transferring them to cartridges, and then plugging them into the N64. I don't know whether this requires bypassing the copy protection, but it shouldn't.
Fourth: Well, I don't know everything there is to know about the N64. There may be another way to reverse-engineer it that is legal. So far, I don't think anyone really knows exactly how they did it; Nintendo is just trying to make an example of these people for daring to write a computer program that acts similarly to a Nintendo machine.
(d) Making emulators is Wrong
See my comment above on moral outrage. This is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a long, long time. Heck, I've _written_ an emulator. It was for a chip I made up, and no-one's heard of it before or since, but I wrote it. Emulation is an incredibly fascinating technique and I suspect that people who pooh-pooh the technical interest argument aren't programmers, or have never done something for the sake of doing it. If the second case holds, I pity them.
(e) People who defend emulators are pirates or supporters of piracy.
McCarthianism at its best (or perhaps worst). First you try to demonize a group of people..then, when someone speaks out against it, you say "well, they're just the same!" Continue until all opposition shuts up. Not too logical but it works awfully well.
Daniel
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
sure we've got an emulator. it works well. it's a cool toy.
Yep
but the logical conclusion of emulators is no games.
Uh? Eh? What? How? If I can play the games I bought for my N64 on my computer, will this lead to the collapse of the gaming industry?
until we live in an energy free society, artists/programmers need (want) to be paid and if they don't get paid they have to work in mcdonalds etc.
This nicely ignores the fact that plenty of good (although often not flashy) games (and software!) have been made for free. But I still have no objection to paying for a game.
hiding behind oh well coding emulators isn't illegal, using ROMS is, is just facile.
It is? Well, let's see your analogy:
its a bit like saying oh well building nuclear warheads isn't wrong, just using them is.
No, it's a bit like saying that oh well running debuggers isn't wrong, just using them to break copy protection is. Or oh well, running tcpdump isn't wrong, just using it to snoop on other people's packets is. Got it?
this is *not* an indirect attack on opensource software, it's a direct attack on people who rip other people off 'just because they can'.
But what does that have to do with emulators? My guess is that you've never even seen an emulator, and you don't even know what one is. I'll give you a hint: an emulator is not a device that lets you pirate ROMs.
Daniel
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
I always thought that the real reason of guys shutting down the UltraHLE site was that they realized the potential threat from Nintendo. They have Connectix as an example already.
Pretty soon, when everything in America is made into a crime, only criminals will live in America.
"The only good windmill is a tilted windmill."
So why doesn't Nintendo sue creators of NES/SNES/GB emulators? Gameboy is still relatively hot, and SNES still has new games being made for it. I've seen all the emus and ALL the games for those two machines. I haven't really heard anything of any other Nintendo software emulator authors getting threatened with a half a million dollar lawsuit. If everyone had huge bandwidth and could download 8-20MB ROM images lickety split, THEN I MIGHT be able to see where Nintendo's coming from. But even then, I really can't. In a way, it's just like the mp3. Try before you buy. I hate spending 60 bucks for a game that is just eye candy and sucks.
But even then, why don't they pursue the N64 console (warez) manufacturers instead? It doesn't matter what anyone does, because there's always going to be piracy. But even then, if you waste 60 bucks on a game, you should be able to play it on any freakin' system you want.
-mickey
I was under the impression that to take a ROM dump you needed some pretty sophisticated equiptment. So where are all these ROMS coming from? Couldn't Nintendo do better to attack the people making this equiptment...or if it's them, to stop giving them away so liberally?
Frankly, I don't know that using an emulated N64 is so much worth it. Unless you are a software pirate and plan on using the ROMS instead of paying for the game, you might as well just rent or borrow the game to try it out. For the old arcades there is more motivation, since everyone's not gonna put an arcade in their room; and many of the old arcades aren't even around anymore.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
Couldn't someone (or someones)reverse engineer UltraHLE, and make the source public, so that people could update it themselves? Although this is probably illegal, I would like to see UltraHLE open-sourced. Once it's in the public domain, there would be no stopping it.
And before you call me a dumb pirate, I already own an N64, and I have about 10 games. I would just like to be able to play those games on my computer too, and having UltraHLE open-sourced would mean that it would run on more platforms, probably support more 3D cards, and would support more games.
No, the FBI doesn't have hordes of agents to try to enforce all of the laws all of the time. Actions regarding civil law usually must be brought by the (alegedly) damaged party.
Bye by Nintendo might as generate some fear on your long slide to irrelevence.
Not very surprising from a company that disingeniously standardized on expensive cartridges instead of 50 cent CD's.
Nintendo engineers truly come up with some good stuff... just that their management needs to keep their fingers out of it some. Even the SNES was a marginal success because of the limited selection of games... and they have a history of announcing vaporware, Microsoft-style, to stifle the current market until Nintendo get's its act in gear with the next generation of wuss games. Blech.
This is proof of why people prefer computers. They don't get it...
LISTEN UP NINTENDO, SOFTWARE SHOULD VBE FREE! they are bjust a bunch of 0;'s and 1's and you hve no right to charge us frickin 80$ fora stupdi game!
They have every right. If you don't like it, don't buy their products.
the problem is nintendo is stupid and only wants $.
If you doubt this of any corporation, then you are truly naive.
Don't get me wrong here; I am not advocating Nintendo. (In fact, I don't even think they have a case.) I am merely pointing out (as I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed) that you sound like a moron. I'm sorry, but with a nick like "WaReZ dUdE" you can't expect us to believe you're angry because of the principal.
Jason.
Nintendo's contention is that this program encourages pirating b/c you have to copy the rom packages to play the games. Your average gamer doesn't have the equipment to do that just laying around. So the emulator is either targeted at a very, very narrow market or their market is going to have to copy the games from someone else.
With the recent trend in court reversals towards software I think we will see one of these two lose out in court. And the law making circumventing security systems thrown out... then again big money can accomplish a lot of things.
--- I do not moderate.
It seems to me that the only leg Nintendo has to stand on is the idea that these guys must have bypassed its security chip. It seems to me that this is a pathetic excuse to drag this though the courts - or am I missing something ? would it really be necessary to bypass the security ? In general emulators can be written with the same information game and compiler writers would use.
No.. they won't go to the police.. cuz then the law might be reversed.. in which case, they would not have the threat of extended civil litigation to keep companies from making emulators...
They will also settle out of court.. prior to any decision being made.. after as much court procedure as possible...
This shows that they can hurt a company that tries to do this.. without risking the right to sue other companies...
Basically, if there is a decision reached, and it's not in the favor of the person suing, they would have a *much* harder time suing someone else on the same grounds later... that's why they prefer to settle out of court.... no precedents are set.. and they can keep threatening.
Probably because lawyers get paid to provide legal opinions. Why would they do their job for free :-)
>Nintendo anti-aliases everything to hell thinking you won't notice the limitation.
:)
Well, the emulator also does. And no, you can't sue me, I own a N64 and all the games i got on ROM.
Besides, I live in Europe
Well DUH! Some of the arguments on here make it sound like Nintendo should be giving their games away. (specifically, a particularly well written one from WaReZDuDe...) Well I hate to burst your bubble, but Nintendo doesn't just pull games out of some magic hat and then sell them at $80 a piece to rip off the "gamerz". A large part of that $80 goes to the programs, artists, sound techs, and people who work long and hard to produce the highly advanced games on the market today. Nintendo's employees are not volunteers, folks. If you think Nintendo "only cares about money" and is out to "cheat the gamerz", then you obviously believe that all of the game's creators should be working for free. If you want free games designed by volunteers, why not learn to program and get together with other programs and start a project aimed in that direction (as so many others have done). If all software was free, the quality of the software would quickly deteriorate because not everyone is willing to work for nothing. This is why Nintendo has a history of releasing good games, investing money in programmers and R&D. Get over the fact that Nintendo is a company, of course they want your money, they deserve it.
I still don't see why they didn't buzz the local FBI branch office...
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
They aren't claim copyright violation, they are claiming the UltraHLE people broke a law...shouldn't they just call up the FBI, or whoever would have juristidiction over this?
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
sure we've got an emulator. it works well. it's a cool toy. but the logical conclusion of emulators is no games. exactly the same as the logical conclusion of mp3 piracy is no music.
until we live in an energy free society, artists/programmers need (want) to be paid and if they don't get paid they have to work in mcdonalds etc.
hiding behind oh well coding emulators isn't illegal, using ROMS is, is just facile. its a bit like saying oh well building nuclear warheads isn't wrong, just using them is.
this is *not* an indirect attack on opensource software, it's a direct attack on people who rip other people off 'just because they can'.
I wish they would have open sourced it - boy, wouldn't that have pissed Nintendo off! Suddenly everyone would have the information needed to emulate N64 on almost anything. Someone needs to setup a ftp site in a country that doesn't abide by the US's stupid IP laws - the site could host these emulators and other such items that have been removed via legal action (lyrics.ch, MP3 encoders, encryption, etc). Anyhow, I expect that we will see more and more cases like this as the masses continue to have more access to technoligy - it seems that a lot of established industries are fighting tooth and nail to prevent the fast and efficient transfer of information that removes them out of the loop.
\forall code \in C, \frac{\Delta readability(code)}{\Delta t} < 0
"More Piracy advocacy"
Not at all, I never said I wanted to pirate software. I have better things to do than try to get a hacked piece of virus infested, illegal software working. Since when is an *emulator* a "piracy"? You make no sence. Sure, there will be those that share roms, but that shouldn't restrict my desire to play N64 games on my PC. This emulator was not pirated from anyone, it was developed by a couple of individuals. Nintendo is just mad because these emulators allow users to choose on what hardware they play thier games (ie I don't have to buy N64 to play)
"I cant walk into Redmond steal MS's code base, slap on a GPL, post it on the internet, and expect no legal recourse"
Nor did I claim you could - your argument is malformed. You did not author any MS code, therefore you cannot copyright it. However, if you wrote an emulater, you could copyleft it if you so wished - according to the courts it is your IP.
"The GPL is for protecting authors, not subverting them. Free speech, not Free beer."
??? I don't see your point. Again, I am not saying I want everything for free (as in free beer), I'm just saying that I want the freedom to decide where I use software (I will still buy the games). In other words, I don't agree with this trend of companies that provide a product and then try to legally prevent anyone from competing with them. This has happened with the Rio, N64, and others. So if emulators increase piracy, should we outlaw them - of course not. If this did happen, the courts could also rule that the internet is illegal because it encourages the piracy of copyrighted matterials (ie: texts and pictures). Its hardly worth protecting Nintendo (or any company) if it means setting such a precedence.
\forall code \in C, \frac{\Delta readability(code)}{\Delta t} < 0
what a great double-standard
If a multi-billion-dollar company creates a product that interoperates with someone else's stuff, it's called innovation.
If a few guys in a dorm room do it, it's called theft.
It's your world. I only live in it.
By that logic, IE is emulating Netscape if it is used to browse Netscape's www site. Thank you for proving my point, AC.
Wouldn't bypassing the security chip be a hardware issue? So wouldn't the only people that could be held to this be those that decoded the ROM's, not the ones that figured out how to use them?
Just my thoughts.
One arguement (that I view as a valid one) is the fact that in many cases you get better screen quality on emulated consoles. Look at PSEmu w/Glide or DX patch. You get higher resolutions than original console is capable of and anti-aliased textures/polygons. N64's severely limited frame buffer doesn't even do its own games justice. Nintendo anti-aliases everything to hell thinking you won't notice the limitation. All you even up getting is soft/fuzzy low resolution screens that even your crap 1970s Montgomery Ward Color TV will make a mockery of. Also consider that with faster CPUs come faster framerates, particularly useful in split-screen games like Golden Eye. Speaking of multi-player. I can't imagine it would be too hard to enable multiplayer over the internet (emulation of the Playstation's Serial Link Cable for example) There's something that neither platform is capable of.
Uh-huh! And every 7 year old will want a new $2000 PC for Christmas. Sure.
Actually, the reverse should be done. A cheap, console-like appliance, that would let people do what they do on the computer, like surfing.
WebTV anyone?
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
Instead of targeting the programmers, they should target that small chinese company, which sells a CD writer capable of copying the ROMS onto CD.
About 20 odd games can fit on a normal CD-R and they are fully playable.
This is something that they should be pursuing. A friend of mine just borrows the games from places like Blockbusters and then copies them.
This lawsuit is completely unfounded
"It does not matter how you do something. As long as you do it in STYLE."
I read somewhere that the Playstation already uses a stripped down Unix as its base OS.
>actively promote things used almost exclusively for illegal activities
Wow, what a narrow scope you have. I own several guns, along with several people that I know that all have guns. I know of nobody that uses them for illegal activities except the occasional shooting of glass bottles. useing them exclusively for illegal activities just tells me that you watch way too much tv. Get a life and spend some time in the real world.
ArsonSmith
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
I was under the impression that the emulator was released by two guys going under anonymous handles. (i.e. the authors' identities are not known.)
So I am not sure how Nintendo plans on suing them?
Correct me if I am wrong.
k.
Simple copy protection scheme, make nonstandard cd's to be completely proprietary.
eg: No center hole, or different wavelength of light required so it would be imposible to read with a regular cdrom or cd-burner etc...
Eh?
isn't *black-box* reverse-engineering legal?
i thought there wasn't any problem with reverse-engineering as long as you don't have any prior knowledge of the technology that's being reverse-engineered.
someone tell me i'm wrong.
-- in china, chinese food is just called food.
the standard of proof in a civil case is a preponderance of evidance (i think that's the technical name). the plaintif must provide more evidence of the defendant's negligance (or financial responsibility or whatever) than the defendant can provide otherwise. in this case, it seems that nintendo doesn't have a leg to stand on.