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Red Hat at Dell?
NikoDemous writes "
Red Hat Software has
certified a line of Dell
Workstations
and Servers
as compatible with Red Hat Linux. We've heard some talk of this
for some time so does this represent a rift in the Win/Dell
relationship?"
Linux supports SMP batter than windows.. it supports most RAID too.. whats up with that!
Uh-oh, competition! Guess that "we'll survive on the goodwill of the linux community" schtick can only last so long.
Take a minute and mail dcs_on-line_order_support@dell.com and tell Dell how Linux supports RAID and SMP, and ask why they don't support it. I did.
Probably this is just the result of someone at Dell who just doesn't get it -- Redhat seems to understand what the GPL means -- but the Dell website states that
Which, if true, is most likely a violation of the GPL.
The PowerEdge 2300 / Redhat combo doesn't support SMP and states that storage can be any valid non-RAID configuration.
... Man, I hate to see NT on these smoke a Sun box for about 1/3 price.
I'm certainly pleased that Dell is offering Linux, support, and gotta love their 4-hour on-site service.
But what I REALLY REALLY want is Linux on one of those bad-assed 6300's - quad processor Xeon's, 2GB RAM, 32MB RAID controller, 3-power supplies,
SMP good.
RAID5 mandatory.
With 2.2 out now, hopefully this will become reality shortly.
Regards,
Anonymous "Bucky" Coward III
by special release, they mean that they've configured the system (recompiled the kernel) for their hardware. They compile it once, then "dd" over to all the other hard drives, saving you up to 2 hours (yeah right!).
;-)
. . . with subsequent "embrace and extend", you name it. It's a proven, documented fact that Red Hat has funded several attempts to assassinate Linus, not to mention their "reducation camp" in the Canadian Rockies, the cattle mutilations, the crop circles, and the cannibalism and human sacrifice. It's so obvious, people can't even see it any more.
I don't want to end up like Donald Sutherland in that movie, where like everybody is a mutant or something and Rob "Dark Overlord" Young has wires trailing into my brain from his nuke-proof bunker underneath his Appalachian stronghold (which is even now under constructon, code named the "Penguin's Nest").
How much are they? I'm assuming these machines avoid MSTax?
What part of the GPL does it violate?
This is old news. We got a server quote from dell with RedHat about 4 months ago. And it *DID* have a raid controller. Dell was the ones who pushed AMD to get the AMD RAID drivers into linux. Just talk to a real representitive, and they'll acctually know what's up. We've got a special rep because we're a university.
Quit worrying about Dell, et al. taking over the Linux VAR market...
Why? Because as this obviously shows, they aren't willing and/or able to support any sort of custom setup, which is what Linux is all about. They're used to imaging their Windows hard drives and not worrying about anything else.
Whereas folks like VA Res, et al., who *know* Linux, who when asked some obscure question will most likely go...uh huh! I know how to fix that!
Whereas Dell will probably go "uhhhhhhh."
You can buy a Corvette from your Chevy dealer...but if you want to absolutely tweak it to the edge, you don't take it back to the dealer (I hope.) You do it yourself or find someone who's willing and able to.
To date, the only real new partnership with Red Hat seems to be with HP, and that's mostly just a support contract. Where are all these big RH partnerships everyone's been buzzing about? The Dell thing is nothing new. According to the press release, Dell has been installing Red Hat for some time now. How may times will this old deal be re-announced?
Redhat 5.2 works just fine on my Dell Precision. They probably just added some "certified for Dell" strings.
I've never seen any absolutely irrefutable evidence AT ALL to support the charges of cannibalism and human sacrifice. In fact, most of the charges have been dropped.
Get your facts straight.
They're human livers, just in case you were wondering.
The first Unix I ever used was a Sys V 3.2 release sold by Dell as "Dell Unix". I ordered it along with a 386/25. Although they wouldn't load the OS at the factory, they talked me through the install (about a dozen floppies) including building a kernel to support the multiport serial board.
That was 1989. I think Dell dropped Unix 4 or 5 years later.
hey, at least their Inspiron 3000s run well under Xfree 3.3.2+....
"reducation"? try "reeducation", pinhead. i guess you sort of blew your credibility there, didn't you? learn to spell before levelling accusations like that against a respectable software vendor. true or not, nobody's going to listen to somebody who can't even spell.
i could take this seriously if it weren't from an AC, and illiterate to boot.
If you were a big Dell customer and you called them up and demanded SMP and RAID, they'd hire someone to do a custom install.
They do this kind of stuff on Win boxes all of the time - even preinstalling in house apps, if it means getting the big order.
What I'd guess is going on here is that Dell is contracting with RedHat for support, but hasn't gone all the way yet to pay RedHat to brew custom configurations for each system. So RedHat is giving them base 5.2 support only. If you personally went out and bought the $50 RedHat CD, then added the 2.2 kernel and a bunch of beta stuff, you're probably not get much support out of RedHat either.
b) it's a PUN
REDucation.
Actually, it was a semi-fortunate typo.
:)
was your post a joke too?
hmmm . . . somebody accuses a reasonably groovy company of a lot of very weird and totally implausible things (human sacrifice?!), and somebody else posts to say that the only reason he doesn't believe it, is because of bad spelling. yeah, that might have been a joke.
When Dell, Gateway, etc. start offering Linux or BeOS on affordable desktops, THAT will be progress! I bet Dell sells 100 desktops for every workstation or server.
How many more savagely mutilated corpses must litter the landscape before these fiends are brought to heel? It's time for action!
Here's what YOU can do to stop this menace: You know that little "Powered by Red Hat" sticker that comes with their distribution? DON'T PUT IT ON YOUR COMPUTER! When dozens of Linux users around the world have taken this step, we'll have sent a clear, unambiguous message to these monsters in human form: Stop the sacrifices! Now!
I just got their latest catalog yesterday and all the workstation computers come with a Winmdem and the upgrade to a regular modem is no longer offered.
1/3 the price of a Sun box. Hmmm. I guess
they just got expensive or something:
Dell 6300 w 4xPIIX-2Mb, 256Mb, 8 disk bay, 9Gb
drive = $28k
Sun E450 w 4xUII-400-4Mb, 256Mb, 12 disk bay, 9Gb drive = $42k including Solaris Server
Dropping to 4xUII-300-2Mb (which btw will _still_
dump anything intel for any kind of real computation) and its $32k including Solaris Server
i know which i'd rather have under my desk (even though it doesnt leave much room for my legs...)
Sorry, no. Only WinModems on the Workstations. Why? I have no idea. I went to Dell's site to order one, but considering the crappy hardware they offer, I'll pass. Though I *have* heard a rumor that Dell will be putting ADSL TAs on the motherboard in the near future.
seriously, im getting suspicious - dell was, last time i checked, in BILLS BACK POCKET. i honestly am starting to think that ms is making resellers hype up linux.
Hmmm. I've got a Dell Optiplex at work and it is fine with Linux. In fact, Redhat 5.2 found all the hardware on it without a problem, including the sound. Granted, I couldn't care less if it did or didn't come with a modem since they are banned from workstations (all traffic must go through the firewall).
Now Dell offers Linux, to avoid getting hit by
the refund day.
Can those of you who are bitching about the hardware stop whining? The fact that Dell is offering Linux is already a big win. The more OEMS to preinstall Linux the faster Linux will become mainstream. Heck, there will soon be an aisle at Fry's that sells Linux software. Two years from now, half the store.
so those of you who are complaining like a baby, SHUT UP and go to hell! You freakin' nerds wanna keep this OS to yourself. But it ain't gonna happen. coporate is gonna want it. everyone's who's trying to make money is embracing it. This master is out of control and you can't stop it. Live with it. Live with the fact that coporate america is loving this OS and stop complaining cuz they want to use it.
Linux is running on many more Dell configurations than just those listed in the PR. The ones listed
were the _simplest_ to factory install from a single distribution. And yes....Linux does
scream on dual 2300/6300's w/raid...once
you get the right drivers for the latest adaptec
chip set and build a newer kernel (w/ SMP). Dell
did not offer NT (or 95/98) on all possible
desktop/server/workstation/portable configurations
from day one. You can expect Linux to follow
in a similar fashion as a direct result of the demand. If all JQ Public wants is Linux on a laptop... that is what is going to be available. Likewise with the other product lines.
When did Red Hat become an authority to "certify" Linux workstations?!?!
hehehe...I can't wait for the RH Certification programs, the "Made for Red Hat Linux"...hehehe...
:-)
sorry, just had a rather bad expierence trying to install GNOME via tarballs, and taking it out
Imaging Windows ??? I dont think so. How many
possible configurations of just one desktop
do you think there are when you include cards and
user selected applications? That is a huge matrix.
If each possible configuration was an "image"
(ala ghost or the like) it would take terabytes for just one product. Last time I checked, Dell
was shipping way more than just one product.
So how much storage do you think they have to hold all those "images" ?
The Quad Xeon 6300 works just fine with Linux, and so does the PERC/2 RAID controllers.
I should know. Our R&D department uses those for file serving with NFS and Samba.
uh, or something like that . . .
:)
I don't understand. As long as they include the source, isn't it still within the GPL?
Yes. The original poster is simply trying to disparage Dell because they dare to sell Linux on their servers instead of giving their servers away for free.
When did Red Hat become an authority to "certify" Linux workstations?!?!
Anyone with at least a third grade education will note that Dell is selling these machines with Red Hat Linux, not Debian or SuSE or whatever else.
Now tell me, if you were going to buy a workstation with Solaris on it, would you want SGI to "certify" it? If you bought an HP server, would you want IBM's "certification" of the HP/UX that's preinstalled.
All right then.
I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.
/me looks in his Dell Dimension V350 running Linux. hmmm... not a winmodem. it has a real modem. the real modem is a $50 extra.
think, then post.
Micron sucks..Bought one few months ago crashed so much..Got a Dell Dimension..loaded Linux...runs like a tiger. Remember, unlike micron, Dell very very reliable. For the Winmodem, get the thing without it..or lets hope some one writes a beauty for linux to get the winmodem running on Linux..and will be one more down for Micro$oft
Of course they're only going to give "official
support" to certain "safe" configurations, especially at first.
A lot of people don't use Linux or other OSS
only because the "lack of support", and Redhat/Dell is giving it to them.
They no longer have that lame counter-argument.
"Official support" was never an issue for the
kind of people who normally install OSS; I mean,
these are the type of people who still make good
use of discarded 386 boxes and the like. This
move by Dell is for the "but who do we sue?"
types. Everyone else can do what they've always
done: get a box with the configuration they
want and install their (free) OS of choice,
regardless of "support".
First, let me say I work for Dell, but I do not speak for Dell.
When I came to work for Dell, my chief complaint was that they were too close to Microsoft. I think that is still very true. I think Dell just sees an $opportunity$ here (yes, the almighty dollar rules). Also, Dell is always looking for ways to distinguish itself from other vendors, and this is one of many ways that Dell is trying.
--
Chris Stoffel
Webmaster - Positively Pixar
I've personally never had any problems with a Dell system, but it seems some folks here have...
I say who cares - a commercial vendor such as Dell selling systems with Linux installed rather than Windoze is a victory in my book!
Let's hope this comes to fruition.
But hey, use your brains. If the box comes with a WinModem, order a different one. If it comes with something that you don't like, change it.
As for the hardware and such otherwise, I've never had a problem.
RedHat 5.2 doesn't support SMP out of the box, so it could be that Dell isn't supporting any custom configuration. This could also explain the lack of RAID controller support (though it could also be that the RAID setups they sell aren't compatible with Linux)
-Falcor
Well, we do use better parts, better interfaces and more reliable components, so sometimes this means that it will be a little more expensive, if you were to take a truly comperable model from dell or the rest, you'll find that we are price competitive.
Chris DiBona (I work for VA)
Co-Editor, Open Sources
Open Source Program Manager, Google, Inc.
As someone looking to purchase a P11 400 or 450 anyday now the idea of it coming ready loaded with linux is not one of my requirements. Basically I am looking forward to getting a new box, creating new partitions and installing the OS exactly as I want it and under my own control. Granted I know what I am doing and that install-your-own-os is not really an option for all the tens of millions of new-users expected over the next few years but still it isn't as much fun is it?
Will they pre-install other distributions..or at least give you a blank computer and a CD..or even just the computer? If not, it's still good news for Linux in general but not particularly for me since I don't want a copy of RedHat. And I'm not looking to buy a new system right now.. :-)
Daniel
(PS: do they charge you for Linux and Windows or do they skip the Microsoft tax this way?)
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
"Doctor, what's the diagnosis?"
"The patient seems to have suffered catastrophic failure of the sense of humor. It is almost certainly fatal, and there is no cure."
Daniel
Hurry up and jump on the individualist bandwagon!
Looking at $6,000 to $12,000 boxes all over the place, wondering what commercial Fortran compilers will do for us, what will be better, NT, Linux, Single Xeon 2M cache, dual 1M Xeon systems, all kinds of details that are very specific to the data arrays of the calculations, and leaving many unanswered questions. Double the price, double the preformance? Maybe, maybe not, maybe better compilers are the answer, maybe not, maybe we should just get another SGI. It's a total mess of a decision here. And, right now, since the real "cheifs" (pointy hair bosses) are making the decisions of who to even gets to talk, it get's even tougher.
I tell you, Dell not supporting more graphic cards, and not supporting Dual will play heavy against them in our decision. At the same time, "loyalty" plays it's ugly hand in favor of Dell for no good reason.
Some times, even when it looks like good news at first glance, it only makes the situation worse. The "Pointy Hair Boss" syndrome seems to play more heavy into these decisions than anything Dell or VAResearch can do/say/support. It's all well and good as far as Linux PR goes. But when you need the box NOW, and avaliability of Dell's limited support is coming "in a few weeks," and you can't even get the pointy haired bosses to TALK to the suppliers, this news just makes me wanna scream.
Sorry, I think I am babbleing incoherently now, I'll shut up, I just had to vent. Larry, if your out there, I am still fighting for you guys here, I hope I get them to pick up the damn phone. (Damn the phone, which BTW, Dell isn't answering today when they called to get details about the Dual's and Linux. Strike TWO for Dell.)
Seriously, the supported hardware is very disappointing. I was starting to think VAResearch was in trouble what with the mainstream manufacturers supporting Linux, but seriously:
1) Max one CPU? For a server?
2) No RAID? Be real.
That mix essentially rules out any high-end performance and any high-end availability. Gateway, IBM, etc. had better do better, because this little support for servers is tantamount to none.
--
The real Paul Vallee is slashdot userid 2192, and, what do you mean it's not cool to point out your low userid?
--
-- Knowledge shared is power lost. -- Aleister Crowley
I doubt it. the OEM version probably just means "preinstalled". They may include some propriotary software like on the official redhat cd's, but I would be pretty sure that you can download any Free software package included on that machine from the Redhat ftp site. I would be very surprised to find otherwise. Besides, even if it wasn't, nothing could stop you if you wanted to upload such a package to a website, so I don't see how this is a violation of the GPL. I think that statement is more or less trying to make Dell look distinguished (if that's possible).
--
-- Knowledge shared is power lost. -- Aleister Crowley
Maybe it's because RedHat 5.2 uses Linux 2.0.36, which ships with SMP disabled. Sure, you could (gasp!) recompile your own kernel (preferably 2.2, which has *far* superior SMP support), but RH is probably playing it safe and waiting until they release RH6 (which should use Linux 2.2) to start certifying SMP systems. At any rate, it's tough to "certify" a system where your OS, out of the box, doesn't even acknowledge the existence of the second CPU.
Another question is if RedHat will start making two different kernel RPMs (one with SMP, one without), or just compile the default with SMP enabled for their next release, since an SMP kernel shouldn't be a big performance hit to those without SMP machines.
-Jake
--
Jake
Dell and the rest were all bowing to M$ pressure until the DOJ put M$ on trial. Go DOJ!
But like I said, without the DOJ antitrust trial, this would have never happened. So even if Dell is bowing to M$ pressure to support Linux to aid M$ in the trial, this would never have happened without the trial.
It is not too far fetched to think that Mr Dell would have done Linux if that is what Bill Gates asked him to do.
...TO HELL WITH DELL!!
I work for a VAR so that makes 'em competition.
Ha HA heeee he ha ha ha lol rotf ha he he ha ha he he gpl software ha he he breath gasp he he he monopoly?.. heh HA HA HA he he crazy
*gasp* See earlier post "MS Employees making Fake posts in Forums?" He he HA CAN'T be serious.. He he ha ha lol..
He ha ha ha Dictator Bob Young? he he ha ha rotf he he he...
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
He he sniff.. I kinda figured.. but some times you just can't be sure,
he he..MS propiganda looks about as rational as that to me... all that static blurs the line. I guess there is still hope for me, I did find it really funny.
*giggle*
(keeping your threshhold at -2 does weird things to your brain!)
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
I whish it was a better vendor... I suppose you take what you can get though... It's sad that the vendor that has pleged to rid the country of VARS gets the business that could really pump some life back into some of the smaller VARS....
(oh yeah, FIRST)
The inclusion of Dell could force other 2nd and 3rd tier OEMS to start shipping Linux. For example the guys who put out like 5000-10000 boxes a month. I believe this would create the needed intertia for more end users....One the other hand
This provides a convenient way for M$ to say, "Look even Dell is shipping Linux" and after the trial Dell can say, "We will continue to ship Linux per special demand in required minimum quantities of XX, but we save our "enterprise hardware" for NT" again....more FUD??
Nick
LSG
I havent heard anything on this front, I would imagine that all the calls would (formerly) have to had been reverse engineered. I dont know how hard this would have been for these Dell's (or even if these paticular models have these things) before.
Actualy Ive only been up close and personal with one pc server, a netfinity 5500, at a Novell show yesterday.
I just got off the phone will Dell techinical support. The web page is worded a little confusingly. The page mentions a "special release" of Red Hat linux - specially tailored for these workstations (note - not servers). The lack of support for Dual-CPUs refers to *that special release* of RedHat linux.
Actually, Dell isn't even offering the support, they have a deal with RedHat. You buy the support from Dell, but you talk to RedHat when you need it.
The tech rep did not know if a more "advanced" release of RedHat was in the works for Dual-CPU support, RAID support, etc.
Your Brain + EEG + LEGO Robots = Brainstorms
I am also disappointed that Dell's "supported configurations" do not include either SMP or RAID. If you take away SMP and RAID it would seem to be more of workstation than a server, at least by today's standards.
Vendors like VA Research have been offering SMP and RAID solutions for quite some time, so it is obviously viable. I believe I read something recently about MegaDrive RAID controller drivers for linux. They make good, expensive RAID enclosures. Also, many people have pointed out that SMP on Linux is natively supported quite well.
The only reason I would guess Dell isn't offering these options is that they are tied to part suppliers (in the case of RAID hardware) who do not yet support Linux. Perhaps they are also waiting for an official RedHat 2.2 Kernel distribution before they officially support SMP.
I'm glad they are becoming more serious about Linux, but lets see a *real* server configuration please. I hope it won't be too long.
-OT
When I went to the custom configuration page for the Poweredge 6300 the default setup is for no OS, and if you want WindowsNT server it's an additional $799.
I bet the margins on these things are large enough that Microsoft's pricing leverage isn't as powerful.
Actually, I have a dell and its perfectly compatable as is. Back when I ordered it (late 97) Winmodems were the standard, but could be upgraded to a regular USR Sportster for something like 20 bucks....which any sane person did.
Dell is kindof a cruddy company, buy the boxes they do make are pretty nice....the fact that mine had managed to survive me and still keep smiling is testament to that.
In retrospect, I should have gotten a Micron or just built my own....I was just feeling lazy.
In my experience Dell has built some very solid high performance machines.
On the other hand I still have a bitter taste in my mouth from Michael Dell testifying on behalf of MS. Remember how he said that they had always offered to install Netscape or IE?
I forget which senator(?) had his assistants call dell 5 times asking if they could get netscape installed on a new machine. The answer was no each time.
get over it man...
"All that glitters is not gold"
i work at a HUGE corporate shop that
... lamers!
is exclusively dell for windoze boxes...
wanna take a guess what they said when i needed
something for NT?
you guessed it!! "im sorry sir, but we dont
support NT on your box, since it wasnt preinstalled"
"All that glitters is not gold"
Is there a reason they don't support 2 processors? I can't think why they wouldn't.
It's hardly a violation of the GPL. You can't get the exact combo of stuff in Red Hat 5.1, except by getting Red Hat 5.1, But it's still all free. You could gather all those files together on your own, but why? Who would bother distributing the exact same thing for the same price, when Red Hat is already doing it?
:)
:) That will tell them that there is demand for real servers (SMP/RAID) and that they are losing that business to a competitor.
Besides, all any Wintel hardware vendor does is slap some hardware & software together, make sure it all works, and ship it. It's the same thing a Linux distributor does: bundle the OS and lots of apps and utilities, and make sure they all work together... but with the addition of hardware/drivers.
If you just order up 200 units of various models desktop machines and 50 units of various models laptops with whatever random hardware the vendors are dishing out, and then try and put Linux on it, chances are you will have problems. You'll find out that the installer can't see your hard disk properly, or that (real world example) the Hitachi laptop ethernet controller and sound chip are supported only in bleeding edge releases that it might take a couple of days/weeks to track down. These aren't insurmountable problems, but they take some time and expertise to fix. For a linux geek that's OK, but for an MIS that's a catastrophe. He ordered 250 machines and it took weeks to get them all working. At least in the Wintel world, they wait a couple of weeks before randomly corrupting their Registries
So they like the "value-add" that comes from knowing that when they order a system, that hardware configuration definitely works as installed and shipped. They don't want to futz with altavista and dejanews trying to find a beta driver for that new card, they want to pay a field-tech monkey to take it out of the box, plug in all the cables, turn it on, and start running installers.
Of course Wintel OEMs sometimes fall down on their asses and fail to provide the value I just described, but that's the whole reason they persist when you can slap your own PC together from parts catalogs for less. It's the delta between the pile of parts, and the definitely-working system (h/w and s/w) that the Wintel OEMs provide.
VA Research is in exactly the same place, and they're apparently doing a more complete job of it. Don't freak out and accuse Dell of being evil and clueless - they're entrenched deeply in the Wintel worls, but are moving cautiously in the right direction. They're no heroes or anything, but after a few months, when they find out that supporting Linux is a viable business, they'll undoubtedly take on the "risk" of supporting something other than a vanilla configuration.
In the meantime, just be sure to tell Dell that you're ordering from VA Research instead of them, and why
Dell sent us source code for their RAID driver
last year, so we could compile an SMP version too.
Why they don't just release the source, I do
not know.
Cheers, Andy!
http://www.wizzy.com/andyr/
Andy Rabagliati
It's more than likely that Microsoft asked Dell to support linux to help support their contention that there is competition in the OS market. It will be interesting to see if Dell really supports linux or if it's just offering it to help their buddy. Personally Wintel is getting old I propose Windell. Well see if I'm right. I ope I'm not!!