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PPC Motherboards at last
GPS Pilot tracked down
some info on PPC Motherboards.
"An article on eeNN describes some motherboards that Motorola recently released. They'll fit in a standard PC case thanks to the ATX form factor. They are CHRP- and PReP-compliant.
The MTX604-070 has dual 333 MHz processors, dual 100 base-T ethernet, and fast&wide SCSI.
More info can be found here.
They can be purchased from Avnet Electronics Marketing, (800) 332-8638 (specify "Motorola
Computer" as the manufacturer, not just "Motorola"). Or
buy direct from Motorola here."
Who needs Apple?
And you all thought apples were expensive!
The MB+ processors are $2700 - $3300
I want to get a complete (complete!) Linux distro that installs easily and painlessly---has good documentation, and comes with a lot of goodies.
SUSE is what I've decided on. (yes, I'm a newbie)
But should I fear the 0 in SUSE 6.0, the way we fear the 0 in Microsoft products (the reason they commercialized their consumer windows products). I've heard TONS of good things from Suse 5.3 reviews, it seems a solid product, and it runs well NOW. So should I go for it, learn Linux the way I want to, and then upgrade to 6 or 6.x when once the 'bugs' have been worked out?
MCG has had MTX boards for a _long_ time and they've always been ATX form factor. These are just the newest boards. Price is high because they are targeted for the low volume high-end embedded market. Get it? Low volume=high priced. The number of people wanting to run Linux-based desktops on these boards doesn't even come close to bringing them to a volume that would drop the price significantly. Don't forget that PPC's are really expensive for Motorola Computer Group to purchase from Motorola Semi even though they get a good deal. They don't enjoy the huge volume that x86 variants have.
That said, they are one of the best supported MCG products under Linux. Let me give you something to think about: an MTX with dual MAXes...now that's a screamin' system..look for it with a huge price tag...
unless you are heavily into masochism.
Yes, they cost that much - $2,500 for the single processor board. No, they don't outperform the $300 ASUS P2B motherboard, which also has Integral 80 Mb SCSI, Fast Ethernet and a 100 Mhz front-side bus. No, they don't use PC-100 synchronous DRAM. No, they do not come with support, or with any graphics card recommendations. No, they do not come with AGP video slots. No, they do not come with sound support. No, the Avnet salesman had never sold one to anyone when I bought my first (and last) one in September. No, the Avnet reps are not trained on this board. No, there is nobody at Motorola whose job it is to provide you any assistance in turning this motherboard into a server. No, you cannot buy AIX for it for less than $800. No, the motherboard's bus cannot keep up with the CPU. No, the firmware boot info is not available unless and until you place the RAM and video card (whichever one it's supposed to use) into the motherboard. Yes, this board is specifically intended only to be sold to very large companies which can buy them in large numbers and do without the support that Motorola's computer group doesn't have anyway.
Now, to performance. I've sold scores of the Motorola computer group's boxes, going all the way back to the 603's in '95. The motherboard designs are quite similar. The ASUS P2B motherboard with a mere 350 Mhz Pentium II will compile our code in less than 1/20th time that it takes the Motorola PowerPC system at 67 Mhz to do it. I am well aware that the PowerPC chips use less power, run cooler, etc., but when you put a computer with a $300 ASUS motherboard, a Pentium II and Linux beside a computer (assuming you can get it running) with a $2,500 Motorola motherboard, a PowerPC and whatever OS you dare beside it, you will not find that the Motorola PowerPC `system' (one you must build yourself for around $3,500 in parts) will have any significant performance edge on the ASUS Pentium II system that you can buy ready to go and guaranteed for $1,200.
If you have tried this, you are, as I am, a rare bird, indeed.
Gene Mosher
Although I dont like to post AC, I am afraid of
the govt when posting this information.
Motorola has manufactured antipersonnel land
mines for years. Land mines are utterly despicable
Maybe many of you don't care what activities a
company is involved with when making a decision
to purchase a product. If however you put land mines in any search engine and see the results of
the manufacture and deployment of land mines, you
may want to reconsider purchasing anything from
Motorola.
Ford Motor Company wants $15,000 to $40,000 for PowerPC based systems that don't even have any PCI slots. But, like the iMacs, you do get a choice of colors. :-)
You're inflating the price by going with the Xeon instead of a P-II. A decent dual P-II board w/ onboard SCSI is $500. Virtually all of these have 440BX's and 4 DIMM slots for a max of 1GB RAM. P-II 350's are $230 each. 100Mb ethernet card is $70.
64-bit 66MHz PCI is *INFERIOR* to AGP. AGP is a point to point channel that runs @66MHz but effectively at 133 since it uses both clock edges to transfer data.
Let's see, that's $1030. Heck, let's go to 2 P-II 450's to really beat the crap out of the PPC's. That's $615 each for $1800.
Well, some people feel strongly against intel, and are willing to pay more for a non-intel product.
Besides, they DO have a freedom of choice.
And who is to say we should stick to 1 architechure?
From the eeNN article: these boards are capable of running a wide range of operating systems, including IBM's AIX; Linux 2.1/2.2; Windows NT 4.0; Real Time Operating Systems (RTOS) such as VXWORKS, PSOS, LYNX and PowerMAX; and MacOS 8.0/8.1... However, because MacOS 8.5 doesn't include CHRP configuration software, it won't boot. But, if someone developed 8.5-compatible CHRP startup code that doesn't infringe upon Apple's patents, MacOS 8.5 could likely run on this board. Likewise, the recently released Mac OS X server too could run - with the correct CHRP configuration. Sigh... Apple was really on to something with CHRP support... too bad they have withdrawn into their proprietary shell again.
Interesting... Thanks for the clue! =)
(Not that I had $2,000+ to spend on it anyway.)
The design of these boards is nothing like the 603 boards from '95. This is a dual-processor CHRP system. Only very recently has Apple brought to market systems that are comparable in performace to the Sta rMax 6000, a single-processor CHRP box that caused Motorola to lose its right to sell Mac clones Fall '97. (Moto, like Power Computing, lost its license for speeding ;-)
You are high. China made land mines with some standard commodity Motorola parts.
www.k-nobs.com
Who the fsck is going to spend that kind of cash on a PPC, when less money will get you a 64-bit Alpha processor and MB (w/AGP!)? Why spend more money for a dinky 32-bit PPC? Ugh. People (even nerds) are just insane sometimes.
They get em at cost. The killer is the low volume for 604e chips.
they got out of the business two years ago... couldn't make any more money i guess
> Motorola has manufactured antipersonnel land
mines for years.
Utterly wrong. Motorola does not make landmines, and does not knowingly sell components for the production of landmines. Some Motorola components ended up in landmines made elsewhere, but this is out of Mot's corporate hands, since the corporation cannot control what happens to resold components.
Time and again Slashdot readers have made comments about how Linux runs faster on a PowerMac than on an Intel box, and they only wished they could get their hands on a non-Apple PPC motherboard. Now we've finally find out where to buy one. You expect us to believe this dual-processor CHRP board is a dog compared to Apple's hardware?
huh? is all i have to say.
first off the land mines they're making currently are, as far as i know, battery powered, and when the battery runs out the mine will no longer work. meaning that it wont go off under the foot of a small child years later.
second off, i doubt refusing to buy their computers will somehow dissuade motorola from making military hardware (which they can overcharge more for anyway).
what's more if you're gonna be goin around talkin about questionable business practices.. well, i wont go there.
did you know that the poison gas used by nazis in concentration camps was made by volkswagon? but you have no trouble with buying a volkswagon do you?
i fear a flamewar over something unrelated to CHRP. i will shut up now.
They should have gone digital years ago, but they stuck with analog and lost nearly the whole landmine market to the Finns. Now they think they can reclaim some of their lost marketshare by integrating a PDA -- they're calling it the anti-personnel digital assistant. I'd still buy a Motorola landmine over one of the cheap knockoffs, just because it has Digital DNA.
The G3 isn't a God. Yes its the newest version of the PowerPc chip but my 8500 series can beat it in certian ops that I use all the time. New != better, look at all the version of MS windows.
Sorry for your pain. But I shall learn from your experience. Thanks for sharing.
Before you discount the consequences of land
mines do some research..
From 1969 to 1992, the U.S. exported 4.4 million AP mines.
47 U.S. companies have been involved in the manufacture of AP mines. Seventeen of these companies have agreed to renounce future involvement, including Motorola Corp.
Here is one of many url's
http://www.banmines.org/problem.html
d00d! Macs suk!
Did you just read the America Online cool list of acronyms? Hey whats your screen name!
NetBSD and if it is OpenBoot maybe OpenBSD.
i'm not trying to put you of of Be OS on PPC, but let me say that Be OS is partly owned by Intel and Hitachi. Do you think they are going to support PowerPC? Besides Be, Inc. had to reverse engineer like any other OS developer for some parts of Be OS on Intel and it would be trivial to do the same on PowerPC but Be has a peculiar agenda.
motherboard in question is using CHRP support, NetBSD doesn't support CHRP, but PReP. Read
/
http://www.tools.de/~ws/NetBSD/technical.html
and the mailing list archive
http://mail-index.netbsd.org/mlist/port-powerpc
Just one URL:
""
Remember, in computers, smaller is better. Smaller means less power, less heat, lower cost, less
physical size, and so on. [..]
If you notice that the PentiumII is black, forbidding and closed -- that is because it is. [..] The PowerPC is in an industry standard socket (BGA), on a open little card (that you can get the design for), and uses standard SRAM (cache) that many others can manufacture. [..]
In total volume, the G3 package is probably less than 1/8th the size of the PentiumII package. [..]
Of course, it gets worse. The Xeon package is about twice the size of the PentiumII package (it is much taller). This is to house the bigger heat sink. [..]
The G4 uses about the same package as the G3. While Merced may come in a package that is even
bigger than the Xeon [..]
""
mp4.globalmusic.com
You don't think Moto will make much of a move to Linux, eh? Then I guess you will be surprised real soon...the clue here is that embedded systems are Motorola Computer Group's market and Linux makes a great embedded OS.
The cloners were eating Apple alive with much better price/performance. Some of Steve Jobs' claim that Apple was heavily subsidizing the cloners by doing almost all the R&D for the platform may be valid... So Apple had no choice but to stop licensing the OS, or implode. Personally I would have liked to see them take a third approach: charge the cloners something like $500 per copy of MacOS. Even if the cloners passed 100% of that along to the customer, many of the clones still would have been very competitive with Apple's machines!
I have one of the older (duall 604ev300) MTX boards, and it is currently running in SMP mode. We had planned to sell these machines as pre-configured Linux systems, but the price was too high and we have sold a grand total of 0 MTX boards with Linux.
If you actually do have $4000 and want a preconfigured system (or just patches for SMP support) mail me at troy@microux.com
Gumber sez:
.5 GB/s and is usable by I/O cards beyond graphics.
AGPs benifits only accrue for video cards and even there, it isn't always the win one would expect. 66 MHz, 64-bit PCI has a bandwidth of about
I know that many other "alternative" CPUs
can me purchased today in ATX form factor
and yet more are developed but are not for
sale. For example, Sun has a 701-based board
(hardware Java). Some time ago Acer produced
MIPS based boards. And of course Sun has an
array of motherboards, such as Ultra -AX
(obsolete, but it has 64 bit PCI slots),
-AXi ($1900 at reseller), -AXmp (4 CPUs).
Compaq sells some too, starting with Yensen
and Noname.
I do not think that Moto does anything unusual
with these boards both from performance and
price/performance standpoints.
--P
don't belieave the FAQ and do not trust everything be tells you.
I say don't belieave it. They could if they would like they _will_ with all that has the Intel brand on it.
Go back to class.
There is (was?) a company called FirePower selling multiprocessor PCI plug-in cards with PPC's on them. It seemed to me at the time that building a cluster of PPC's on a PC's PCI backplane might be pretty cool. But the pricing of the parts (TotalPOWER, I think they called it?) were too high to make it feasible. Do we necessarily *want* a bona fide PPC motherboard, or would people be happy with PPC daughtercards which use an x86 motherboard as the IO controller?
hahahahahaha...
I am Mach'ing your post and X'ing out your name.
Mind you, this is still 604-based and Apple is just about at G4 by now. It's quite possible that this dual-processor CHRP board is a dog compared to Apple's hardware.
We investigated putting together computers based upon this board back in November. We passed, for the following reasons:
1) The price was similar to that of an Alpha.
2) For that price, you got a 32-bit machine, not a 64-bit machine.
3) For that price, you got a machine that was similar in speed to a dual Pentium II/450, for over $1500 more.
4) For that price, you got a machine that was the same price but roughly 3/4ths the speed of an Alpha 633mhz 21114, without any of the software and support that the Alpha had at that time.
In the end, counting beans kills the notion. It just isn't adequate bang for the buck.
-- Eric
Send mail here if you want to reach me.
because I'm interested in getting an SMP machine going. (I don't want the high electric bills involved with using a PentiumII either) I just wonder who is going to be the first to offer best bang for the buck - PPC or Alpha?
Supply vs. Demand! Lower the price; increase the demand.
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
Hey cool. I actually did the search at Avnet, and this is the pricing info that came up:
Part #/Description Piece Price in US Dollars
MTX604-070 0
DUAL
604R,333MHZ,7PCI
SLOTS,DUAL
ETHERNET
So thats 1,030 + (615 x 2)= $2,860.
A grand cheaper that the PPC, but i'd rather get a PPC and be able to run more OS's.
It's far easier to forgive your enemy after you get even with him.
Neither Alpha nor PowerPC is in any position to take over the market but they could at least make it look like they're trying. If I could buy an alpha motherboard or powerpc motherboard (and I own an alpha, and it's not nearly as much bang for the buck when it's all said and done) for close to the same price as an intel board I'd buy 10.
That motorolla board looks like it is all standard comodity parts, PCI, IDE, SCSI, ethernet, nothing custom or special, why does it cost so much?
That will make me want to go out and buy a Motorola product right now!
Land mines may be nasty, but they are supposed to be. I'm sure guarding the N/S Korean border would require a lot more personnel and equipment without them. I'm all for military technology that helps defend our troops. May Lady Di rot in Hell. =P
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Did I read correctly? $3000-4000 for the mobo with processors? Please tell me I read this incorrectly!
Uh, AGP isn't something to be particularly proud of in terms of performance. It's a cost-saving measure, not a performance-enhancing one.
Ah, but when was the last time you drove down the highway in your Intel system?
yes, indeed, you do have to love embedded systems..
--------------------
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--------------------
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MTX combines the industry standard ATX form factor with PowerPlus Architecture. The MTX604-070 provides flexibility with the enhanced payload of six 32-bit PCI slots and one 64-bit PCI slot, plus a shared ISA slot. The board incorporates the PowerPlus Architecture which includes: dual 333 MHz PowerPC 604 processors, 512KB L2 cache, up to 1GB of DRAM, 1MB of boot flash, 8MB user flash, 8KB NVRAM/RTC, and a watchdog timer function. The board provides increased connectivity with fast wide SCSI, dual 10/100 Mb/s Ethernet, and Super I/O functions.
MTX604-070 targets communications, industrial automation, and simulation applications with an exciting combination of processor power and connectivity. click for image
Mmmm... yummy.
http://fudge.org
It looks like these products are for high end embedded/industrial systems. Not something you would put on your desktop. Not unless you have a couple of grand sitting around you want to get rid of fast.
Scuttlemonkey is a troll
did you know that the poison gas used by nazis in concentration camps was made by Volkswagen?
Actually, it was I.G. Farben, a consortium of German chemical companies which, I believe includes the present day BASF.
I work for Mot (though not in a 'consumer' group).
Motorola has had a history recently of getting its ass kicked in the consumer marketplace. Cellular is digging itself out (I hope), semiconductor shafted itself when it thought it could compete in the memory market, and MCG doused itself in gasoline with Steve Jobs holding a match when it tried to get into the Mac clone market (and the Starmax line was overpriced anyway). Don't hold your breath to get this board at an affordable price. I don't think the Linux market is anywhere near big enough at this point anyway (sorry!).
Obviously someone must be buying them at this price though if they keep coming out with new ones. I personally have more faith that Compaq will see a market for attractively priced alpha systems in the consumer market.
And yes, plenty of us (especially new college grads) are pretty heavy into Linux, but it won't get us anywhere for a while.
Then don't buy intel... the computer sitting behind me is running a 300 MHz AMD K6-2 on a Microstar 5169 board, which has an Aladdin V chipset.
Where can you find an Alpha system that supports AGP?
They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- C. Sagan
If the poster is "Anonymous Coward" its Fantasy. Don't believe it.
IF the poster uses a real login name, then evalutate it seriously.
Anyone who thinks a pentium is anywhere near as fast as a PowerPC is an Anonymous Coward.
Noticed the trend?
Grow up dipthongs!
From Mirriam-Webster:
Main Entry: diphthong
Pronunciation: 'dif-"tho[ng], 'dip-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English diptonge, from Middle French diptongue, from Late Latin dipthongus, from Greek diphthongos, from di- + phthongos voice,
sound
Date: 15th century
1 : a gliding monosyllabic speech sound (as the vowel combination at the end of toy) that starts at or near the articulatory position for one vowel and moves to or
toward the position of another
2 : DIGRAPH
3 : the ligature æ or [oe]
-----------
Whoah, man! You really told all of them! And although I agree on which side of the Intel/Motorola duality you're on, this isn't really that valid of an argument. Just because people post anonymously and are labeled "coward" on this site, doesn't mean they don't have anything valuable to say. Or that they're two letters smooshed together.
cygnus
"I feel like a quote out of context"
Just raise the taxes on crack.
Apple may not use CHRP but they do use something else that is considered a standard. This something else is known as OpenFirmware - there is a webpage located at:
http://www.OpenFirmware.org/
This being the case, there is nothing stopping other motherboard makers from using this technology.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Any idea of OS's that use the CHrP whatever compliancy? Besides LinuxPPC(Soon if not now), and IBM's AIX on their machines, is there anything else? Or is it only Linux and AIX for the near future, if Apple doesn't heap OSX on it?
Twinkie
I hope this conversation is still relevant...
The point is a 450MHz P2 has half speed cache against a Xeon at 450MHz... and clock for clock, the PowerPC still has better performance than a P2... Macs lose because they have much slower clocks than contemporary P2s, but his board has a 400MHz PowerPC, so I'm comparing against a 400MHz Xeon... with same size cache. Because, again, clock for clock the PPC is faster, it would be just as convenient to use the 400MHz 1mb cache Xeon, or the 450MHz Xeon with 512kb cache; I chose the 450MHz 512kb CPU to compare against because it's cheaper. The 400M 1mb cache would up the price by a good 2300$ already...
Again, someone else made the point that the 64bit 66MHz PCI is more than for graphics.
Twinkie
Thank you GOD. Wow. Joy.