Ask Slashdot: How Exportable is Linux?

Stano sent in a really good question. He asks: "The Austrian company I work for develops commercial software and there exists a Linux port too. Now we have an opportunity to get a customer in Iran. There exists an American regulation (that Austria was forced to respect) that only software with max. 10% of American code can be exported to this country. Our software is OK in this respect (we have an export permit) but how about a Linux distribution? Is all FSF code "American", regardles of who originally wrote it? How about the Linux kernel? Who breaks the regulations if the customer himself downloads some American/German/whatever distribution?"

Comments

My personal plea...

[Anonymous Coward]

Regardless of whether there are legal export restricions, please carefully consider your decision to trade with Iran. More generally, please don't export to terroristic nations, or those oppressive to their own people. I understand that the need to make money weighs heavily in the decision making process, but this is a small piece of leverage that we as individuals and companies can exert on these nations.

Of course, export all of the food and medicine you can. I don't think there is any moral reason to deny people food; I feel that would be terroristic in and of itself.

Iran has definitely been trying to improve recently, which would make the decision harder for me. They looks like they are going through some sort of Islamic Reformation. Maybe we should simply reach out to them now. However, I think people should think carefully before deciding to support that country.

Anonymous for voicing controversial ideas (hopefully not flamebait.)

Re:My personal plea...

[dentin]

I cannot agree with this. One of the best ways to free or change a nation is through trade and the free flow of information. Linux is an excellent way to do this, as it can truly get into the hands of the people where it is needed most. The more common linux becomes in countries like this, the more communication there will be. Communication is good - it tempers those who would be fanatical out of ignorance.

And yes, from what I understand Iran is undergoing some social changes. Trade involving communications equipment and software for the public can only help. I hope this isn't a government contract :P

Anyway, for the actual question: Have them agree on some standard distribution to install your packages on top of. I wouldn't risk shipping Linux itself, the USA import/export people aren't that bright and would try to thwack you out of stupidity.

Re:My personal plea...

[Samawi]

1. Don't believe your own government's propoganda. Iran is not a terrorist country; the US has, by its own admission, sponsored far more terrorism than Iran in the last few decades (Guatemala since the fifties, Chile after 1970, Nicaragua during the eighties, even in Iran itself, and others too numerous to mention).

2. Iran is a republic which has held every single federal and local election on time since it was founded in 1979. There are more women in Iran's parliament than in the entire US congress. Iran is by all accounts a much freer country than Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and other US allies in the Middle East. They do have problems like everyone else but most of the invective against them is a reaction against the Iranian people's attempt to
i) even dare try to have a political-economic system not based on European principles of secular humanism;
ii) limit Western attempts, be they cultural, economic, or ideological, to dominate Middle Eastern life in general and Muslim culture in particular.

Iran does not need anyone's patronizing or condescending approval of any so-called
"Islamic Reformation". Islam is fine just the way it is. Iran is merely going through the same kinds of growing pains the American and French revolutions went through. This talk of whether the free software movement should include Iran is really sickening and hypocritical when one considers all of the pain and suffering caused in the world by the policies of the US, Canada, and Europe over the past two centuries.

Nonanonymous posting of even more controversial ideas in response to anonymous flamebait voicing standard propoganda.

Hmm...

[YuppieScum]

More generally, please don't export to terroristic nations, or those oppressive to their own people.

I suppose I ought to stop exporting the good old US of A...

Easy Solution, Part the First

[jd]

1. Create a file - twiddles.c - and place the following two lines in it:
#ifndef _Bloody_Stupid_ #endif /* Bloody Stupid */

2. Write a short shell script which inserts compiler-valid junk into the twiddles.c file, between the #ifdef and #ifndef. Doesn't matter what. Ensure that twiddles.c makes for 90% of all the code in the Linux kernel.

3. Add -DBLOODY_STUPID to the compiler string in the Makefile.

4. Add twiddles.c to the list of objects compiled and linked by the kernel. Don't worry about bloat, as the whole of twiddles.c will compile, link and optimise to next to nothing.

You now have a US-legal kernel, as more than 90% of your code is GUARANTEED produced outside of the USA.

How exportable is Linux.

[MikeBall]

I would have to believe that since Linux is being developed by a world-wide collection of programmers, none of which actually "owns" the code provided, that Linux itself must be exempt from any trade or export barriers.

As the questioner pointed out, it is very easy to access a distribution (ANY distribution) of Linux from anywhere in the world. By developing a product to run on Linux, you should be fairly certain that your prospective customer's already have FREE access to the Linux base itself.



Michael J. Ball
Open Source Who's Who

The FSF/GNU point is a bit confused

[Bruce Perens]

FSF/GNU only owns software when the copyright has been explicitly assigned to it. It does not own software just because you use the GPL. That software is still owned by the copyright owner, who is most often not FSF but the software author or the entity that funded the work.

The software is owned by its individual authors or their funding agency. For example, many of the networking drivers in the Linux kernel are declared to be owned by the United States Government as represented by the director of the National Security Agency. That is the copyright owner for most of Donald Becker's work. Fortunately, those drivers are under the GPL, and the government can't take the GPL back.

I actually have some question regarding whether the Government's copyright is legitimate and whether or not the networking drivers are in the public domain. However, they are very definitely U.S.-produced software regardless of their copyright status.

If your government is cooperating in a U.S. trade embargo on Iran, they've signed a treaty that says they'll do so, and they're likely to take their export restrictions seriously. I suspect that there is more than 10% U.S. content in a Linux distribution, but I'd have to audit one to make sure.

A recent U.S. court decision supported that some software was protected free speech, but I don't think it went far enough to help overturn a trade embargo.

Thanks

Bruce Perens

I hope it's countryless

[Merk]

Personally, I abhor the concept of countries. Because I happened to be born north of an imaginary line in North America I happen to be Canadian.

To me one of the great things about the 'net is that it's essentially countryless. I love the fact that it confuses lawmakers/lawenforcers/taxtakers to no end when a business is registered in Jamaica, is served off a server in Chicago and has customers in the Netherlands.

I would assume that since Linux is not stored centrally anywhere, contains contributions from people around the globe, who may or may not be known/credited, etc. that it's countryless.

Now I imagine the commercial distributions can be tagged as "belonging" to the country in which that business is incorporated... but who knows.

Re:So why not move to Iran then Alan

[Alan Cox]

The iranian government isnt evil, your US propoganda knowledge is out of date. The Iranians are next to the Iraqi's who are this years bad guys. Please go back for a current indoctrination.

Americans have a very odd idea about much of the middle east where "good" is defined in terms of arms sales, and money dictates "truth".

Number of iranian children who shot each other in school this year: 0

Number of chinese embassies bombed by iran in error: 0


Live there - no I don't speak the language, follow the culture or fit the religious philosophy. (Anyone about to make cracks on that point should count the number of abortion centres bombed in the USA and shut up).

Alan

Iran and Linux

[Alan Cox]

Iranians contribute to the kernel, Iranians have beowulf clusters and Iranians have plenty of options for buying Linux from countries who have the sense to tell the US where to go.

So America may be crippling your business but thats between you and your parliament. You may want to look at moving to another EEC state that is freer ?

Alan

The U.S. government will say no way no matter what

[KirkKhan]

I'm sure that the US government will say that Linux is more than 10% American, regardless of whether it is or not - their position on crypto makes it clear that logic has nothing to do with these policies. I would like to say that you should just tell them to go screw themselves and go for it, but from a business standpoint that might not be so wise. On the other hand, if you tell them where they can download it, and only make suggestions on which distro to get, without actually selling it to them or exporting it yourselves, I don't see how you could get nailed. Be sure that the US government will try to figure out a way to nail you anyway - they REALLY hate the Iranians!

Re:It doesn't matter.

[hasse]

Joy.. the US trying to impose its will on another country. Ain't life grand.

Actually, due to the Wassenaar Arrangement ( http://www.wassenaar.org), 32 countries have agreed to enforce the same export restrictions on encryption as the US. The agreement was signed sometime late in 1998.

Somehow this didn't get very much attention in the mainstream medias here in Norway, but due to this we got funny situations like the Opera web browser suddenly being on the weapons export list.

It's great that the us governments word is law, not only in the us, but all over the world. Too bad the rest of us don't have the right to vote there though.

Slightly off-topic, but anyway..

Is Linux porn?

[Confused]

After a quick search I found the following Austrian regulations that may apply to the export of software and storage mediums containing software.

*) Exports to Iraq and Yugoslavia

Those two countries are currently on the UNOs shit-list and all trade with them is forbidden. There are only a few exceptions for medical stuff. This shouldn't concern you.

*) The Austrian Aussenhandelsgesetz (AHG)

This law is the base-law for most of those pesky permits.

One interesting point is right at the beginning in the definition of technology (Paragraph 1.2):

Technology (which may be subjected to export limitations) is technical know-how recorded on storage media of any kind, which is not generally available.

As LINUX is generally available, it seems not to be technology and therefore not subjected to this law.

*) The Dual Use Goods list

There is also a list with product which can be also used for military purposes. Here we find an exemption for goods with a value of less than ATS 11500 ($1000). As Linux is free and a storage medium used for export should be availble for less than that, this regulation shouldn't apply either.

*) Pornographical Material

There are some EU restrictions on exporting porn. Considering how some people drool over Linux, this may pose a problem. You'd better check that out.


A few tactics that worked well in the past in similar cases are:

*) Don't sell Linux as part of the package, just sell the support for the installation etc. If they need the software, be generous and give it to your customer as gift, download it, find it on the street, whatever.

*) Bundle it with your system or software and calculate the percentage by value. The value of the disk with linux shouldn't exceed 10% ot the value of the whole system.


If you still have problems with the ministry, try to find out exactly which regulation they apply
and check if it is really relevant. Often the people at the ministry have no idea what the whole thing is about. Then hit them with a chorus chanting the mantra 'Linux is generally available and has a monetary value of less than $39.90'.

I whish you good luck!

johi