Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: The Dish
Figured I'd step on Cliff's toes and ask my own question.
I live in an area with poor cable service and have pretty much
accepted that if I want the Sci Fi channel and all the other
cool channels, I'm going to need
to get a Dish. Net access would be nice, but its not going to
be a deciding factor. Ideally I wouldn't need cable- I don't
care about local channels but I need the networks too (FOX for
the X-Files and Futurama especially). So here it comes: Which Dish? I
see many networks with many features, but which one is
best? I want lots of channels, but I'm not rich. But I'd
like my surround system to sound really good (course first
I probably better get a center channel and some good rear
speakers *grin*).
I live pretty far out in the country and the cable goes out when the wind blows. So I got Primestar. I was pretty happy with them until they started screwing up my billing. That's when I started looking around. I saw the Dish Network at SEARS. It really caught my attention. Dish Network seems to be keeping up with technology and seemed to have their eyes on the future. Just last night on the Dish info channel I saw that they now have an HDTV modulator that plugs into the bus on the back of the box. Pretty nice. Now all I have to do is get an HDTV set. The video for the Dish is MPEG-2. I thought it was my imagination that the color was sharper until friends and family noticed it too. It was pretty easy to setup. The hardest part of that sequence was figuring out how to program the remote control. The documenation that came with the system wasn't that hot but I got all the info that I needed from their website. (Maybe it wasn't the doc's fault. Maybe I'm just too used to reading online. ;-)) I've had it since March and it's been great.
I subscribe to Dish Network (owned by EchoStar) and love it. I get all the network channels, plus over 160 others. I have two dishes, and the house has four receivers. We'll be adding a third dish for more programming very soon (EchoStar just launched EchoIV which will provide a ton _more_ local programming along with lots of other goodies). The quality is excellent and we've never had any problems with their service.
One of my favorite features is that all upgrades to the equipment are done automatically when the unit is not in use. Periodically they send out software upgrades which take effect as soon as you turn the unit off. The remote is a universal remote which works with virtually all VCRs, TVs, Laserdisc/DVD players, etc. so you'd most likely be dropping all but one remote instead of adding to a pile of them.
They also provide several different models of the receiver, some with VCRs (even a dual-deck VCR) built in. The mid-range to upper-range receivers use UHF remotes, so you can have a single receiver serving multiple TVs throughout the house and you'll be able to use the remote from anywhere within 100ft. (through walls, etc.) of the receiver.
The "info" screen alone is enough to kill everything from Primestar (which uses old equipment, a larger dish and is not software-upgradeable).
And the killer channel is 213 (NASA-TV): 23.5 hours every day of views of earth and the other planets from the various satellites and probes.
All this and no antenna needed.
Well, I don't have any experiance with other systems, but I can tell you about the RCA DSS system.
First, the picture quality is very good, and stays that way even in stormy weather...to a point. Once the weather gets bad enough, the signal is broken and the decoder just stops, freezing the current picture on the screen until the weather clears up. This happens very infrequently where we live though.
Secondly, the basic offering has quite a few channels, although most of them are crap. Sci-fi is included in the basic package.
There is quite a selection of pay-per-view movies as well, at a reasonable cost ($2.50, or about what you pay to rent from a video store).
The guide is a nice feature, just poorly implemented. The interface is slow and rather clumsy, although this may be fixed in newer boxes. The one we have is also quite ugly (it looks like the preview channel with its squarish blocks of programming. All said though, the guide is about 100x better than those preview channels, since you don't have to wait for your channel to scroll up.
You won't be able to view local channels on the DSS (you will have to use the rabbit ears), unless you live in an area that has no local TV service, and then it takes an act of Congress to get broadcast channels (not to mention a monthly fee). Supposedly this will be changing in the near future, but don't bet the farm on it.
All in all though, we are very happy with the system, especially compared to the rip-you-off-at-every-corner cable service I have up here.
I read the internet for the articles.
I'm a bit biased (I now work for Echostar) but I signed up for Dish TV long before I started work here. The programming options seemed to be better. With Direct TV you had to select from two different companies for channels and they only came in "packages". So if you wanted channel "A" and channel "B" you might have to order one channel package from USSB and another channel package from the other company (I forget the name).
But the best reason to support Echostar and Dish TV is why I signed on. We are starting a project to put Linux on our set-top boxes. We already have a Web TV/Windows CE box, but we obviously don't want to rely only on Microsoft.
So I throw a question back at the Slashdot readers, What would you want to see in a Linux based set-top satellite receiver ? We are considering a Web TV type of operation with a local cache fed via our very fat satellite pipe. Home-networking is another option. We will have a browser on the box of course (Mozilla?). Anyone have any thoughts on how to utilize a very fat pipe comming in, but a thin pipe going out ? We haven't yet decided on a CPU. Anyone have any thoughts on that ? This is going to be a very cool project and I'm looking forward to getting it on-line !
As many others have said here, the local channels thing is a pain in the arse, however, I don't tend to watch the big networks anyway... And I can check the web, or newspaper for local news.
I personally would go with DirecTV and a DSS system.. that way you can pick the brand of reciever you want to have.
Picture Quality on DSS is only slightly lower than DVD Quality, you notice artifacts sometimes (I think they lower the bit rate for some programming). I haven't ever noticed artifacts while watching pay per view movies though.
DSS uses the same technology as DVD, MPEG-2.
Sound Quality is superb on DSS, with most if not all channels in Stereo, and sometimes with Dolby Prologic.
If you buy a Sony AD-4 or an RCA DRD515 reciever you can recieve true 6-channel Dolby Digital 5.1 Sound...
You will need a reciever with a Dolby Digital Decoder built in it (watch out for "Dolby Digital Ready" receivers, this is NOT the same)
Basically, your DSS with have a ToSLink Optical out, which you will hook up to your DD reciever's Optical In. (My Sony 825 has an actual DSS input)
This optical cable will carry the AC-3 compressed digital signal. AC-3 is like six channel MP3, but with a slightly less lossy compression than MP3.
The decoder will decompress the AC-3 signal, and route the sound seperately to center, front right, front left, right rear, left rear, and subwoofer speakers.
The end result is incredible. Quite a few of the pay per view movies are broadcast in Dolby Digital now, and I heard rumors that HBO and the like would eventually start broadcasting in DD.
I had the opportunity to play with a newer box the other day, and the guide interface is much cleaner and faster.
The Wega is indeed *very* nice. Wish I had one.
I got a 27" Trinitron (KV-27V40) and I've been quite pleased with it. Remember of course that Trinitrons are not quite flat (excepting the Wega) but are slightly convex horizontally. They are flat vertically though, so the overall effect is that of a section of a cylinder.
The one problem I have with Trinitrons (I get this on my monitor too) is that there are problems with the red and blue signals around the edges of the screen. Generally the left side has some slight red highlights and the right side some slight blue ones. It's not normally noticable, except for Simpsons, where there are a lot of these all over the place.
I have heard that the really high end monitors (the sort used in video editing studios) have additional circuitry to compensate for this, and that a couple of people have modified their sets to get rid of it. Personally, I manage to live with it, and I think the Trinitrons are generally pretty good.
There are also some good Panasonics, the last time I shopped around for sets.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
I just so happened to be at a friends house when the satellite people were there installing the dish. I brought up the question about local access. They said that while they are not allowed to do it under current law, they do it anyway. They say that someone will call within a couple of days and that you should say that you 1) Havent had regular cable for 6 months. 2) Cannot have an antenna because of tree and reception problem and 3) I cant remember the last one. E-mail me if you want to know. The point is to ask the installer when he does it, he will tell you exactly what to say and you can have the local TV stations from your satellite. Oh by the way this was in Bellmore, NY which is on Long Island Regards, Sean
can't get networks unless you have an antenna
Unless you can get your 'local' stations to sign a waver or you are over a certain distance from their transmitters.
Or... If you know a little secret. If you tell them you will be using your dish on an RV (recreational vehicle) where you will not be able to receive local channels, then you can get it.
Sorry, Mr. Taco, but you can't get networks unless you have an antenna. Sometime this winter the courts ruled against the major dish provider (I can't remember who that is; I have cable). They were providing the New York/Chicago/LA feeds of the major networks so people wouldn't have to use antennas. But someone sued and now they can't do that anymore. (I read about this in the Economist sometime in winter). So now they're stuck with subsidizing bunny ears. The article did mention that the great hope for dish providers is that most cable providers won't be ready for digital telivision, so they'll be able to create a box that has dish and HDTV reception in one, which should solve some of the problems.
That's only because the ruling doesn't take effect immediately. I should have mentioned that. It said that people in rural areas would be able to keep the feed for a while but that people in cities would have to go off pretty soon.
Oh, I stand corrected!
I've had no problems with them, the service is good, the channel line-up is (for me) better than DSS/USSB's. Bought the (JVC branded) receiver at Sears. :-)
My father-in-law has DSS, and he's had problems with customer service, but then he always seems to have problems.
(Another reason I went with DiSH rather than Direct is that the latter is owned by Hughes, and I didn't particularly want to reward a company that gave away/sold launch technology to the Chinese.)
Go with a dual LNB setup (I went with the 4xxx
series), as that gives the option of adding a second receiver (for another TV) to the same dish.
(Installing the dish yourself is not hard if you're at all handy, just don't do what I did: spend several hours on the roof on a sunny June day in shorts with no sunscreen. Ouch.)
I went with the basic ("Top 40") package, about $20/month (plus any pay-per-view movies, usually $2.99 each), because we don't watch much TV. Mostly Sci-Fi, Discovery, Learning Channel, etc. If you're more of a TV watcher you might go with the more inclusive next higher package, and one or more of the movie channel (HBO, Showcase, etc) packages if that's your thing.
If/when we do get a second receiver I'll probably get another package that includes a dish, to aim the second dish at one of EchoStar's other satellites (mostly international programming).
-- Alastair
Yes, if you live in a place with a big yard and a decently wide view of the sky, a big dish is a nice-to-have. There may well be better integrated packages these days, but when I looked at it, it meant a lot of separate agreements and bills with different providers on various satellites. But you can get stuff that the small digital dishes don't give you.
The nice thing about the pizza-size dishes is that they'll mount just about anywhere, and they're the only thing you can use from an apartment or take on the road with you. (My in-laws spend half their time in Ohio and half in Florida, they just take the dish with them. A temporary mount works well enough.)
The big dishes require a permanent mount and are subject to much higher wind etc. loads, so need a much stronger mount. If you can accomodate that, great. (In my yard it'd be marginal, since there are a lot of high trees around. That's why I went for a roof mount of the small dish. In theory you can roof-mount a big dish, but that requires major structural considerations to keep it from ripping out of the roof in a high wind.)
-- Alastair
is it possible?
:-)
Sure. Three is a bit trickier than two, but do-able. Depends how much money you're willing to spend
what would be the best/cheapest service?
Probably comparable. A base package rate plus a small surchage for each additional receiver (you'll need three).
what would be the cost/setup(meaning would I need two dishes or what)?
You can do it with one dish that has a dual LNB (and two cables from the dish to the receivers). Satellite signals come in two polarizations for each wavelength, the LNB needs to be switched to the correct polarization for the channel you want. You need a dual if you want each receiver to be able to watch a different channel.
The trick is on that third receiver. Normally with a dual LNB/dual reciver setup you just run one cable to each receiver.
In theory, you could split the two cables and run both to the third receiver, with a (mechanical or electronic) switch to switch that receiver between cables so that you can pick the one that happens to be on the correct polarization for the channel you want. (This assumes you want all three TVs tuned to three different channels simultaneously.)
In practice, though, it's probably a lot less headache just to get a second dish, going for the low-end with just a single LNB. The package price for a less expensive receiver and single LNB dish isn't much more than for the receiver alone.
After that if you want to get creative you can point the two dishes at different satellites and have switches at each receiver to choose which satellite it's looking at (bearing in mind that the single-LNB dish will only support one channel at a time).
If you'll only ever want to watch two of the three TVs simultaneously, you don't need the second dish. You may not even need a third receiver if you wire two TVs to one receiver (with a long video cable, or a a retransmitter). Some of the satellite receivers use a UHF remote as well as IR, so the remote will work through walls.
-- Alastair
The Sony decoder supports DSS/USSB (DirecTV), not Echostar (DISH). The high end of the line on Echostars' receivers (also by JVC) support the same range of features that the Sony does, such as the UHF remote control. They're also remotely software-upgradeable from the satellite, a nice feature. (For example, a few months back Echostar upgraded the "display information about this channel" feature from an opaque to a transparent background, so you can see the TV signal behind it. Magically appeared one day as the receiver software was remotely updated.) :-)
The top-of-the line JVC receiver (IIRC) includes a built-in VCR, which is nice, although I find the IR-blaster in my not-quite top end machine works just fine. (This feature means you don't have to program your VCR to record a later program. There's a high-power infrared port on the front of the receiver which, when the time comes for the show you've selected, blasts out the appropriate IR signal to start your VCR recording, and similarly stops it when done. The signal just bounces off the opposite wall of the room into your VCR.) Nice feature. I should use it more, say to tape those early early morning reruns of the old "Lost In Space" TV series...
-- Alastair
DiSH is actually less proprietary than DTV. DTV uses a TOTALLY secret proprietary data stream. DiSH uses DVB/MPEG-II (as someone else pointed out) which is an open standard (encorporating encryption, of course, to prevent stealing the service.)
As to one equipment manufacturer, ALL DTV receivers are re-branded receivers manufactured by Hughes (the parent company of DTV), with the exception of the Sony's. Sony manufactures their own units, but uses proprietary Hughes chips (which are secret and exclusive to Hughes) to decode the signal.
OTOH, the Echostar receivers, which are sold under the brand names Echostar, JVC, and Philips/Magnavox, are generic DVB satelite receivers which can be programed to decode any any DVB complient service (E. G. Canada's Express Vu, several Latin American and European services) via reprogramming of their Flash memory and application of the correct provider's smart card. The flash is appropriately programmed for the target provider. They can even be programed, via flash, to output in NTSC, PAL or SECAM, as required by the service they are being used to receive.
I'm a DirecTV subscriber, and I would recommend looking into it. However, I have not had any experience with any of the other providers, and so my recommendation may be a bit skewed. As you would expect from a digital satellite system, the picture and sound are excellent, particularly when movies are shown in Dolby Digital 5.1 audio. (Don't skimp on your audio equipment; the up-front investment is worth it.) The pricing is reasonable, depending on what channels you want; you can go anywhere from $12.99/month (I think) for a "minimal" package to $47.99/month for the Total Choice Balls-To-The-Wall package.
.. but don't think you'll be able to tune to Fox Sports Arizona and watch a Diamondbacks game live .. if you want to do that, you'll have to buy the MLB Extra Innings package. The same thing goes for NFL, NBA, etc. Still, I enjoy watching all the local sports-talk programs, even if I can't watch most of the games as they happen.
Also keep in mind that DirecTV is merging with USSB, which provides all of the "major" premium channels such as HBO, Showtime, Skinemax, etc. DirecTV currently provides four channels of Starz and eight channels of Encore, along with the Independent Film Channel and a couple of other "premium" networks. If you combine DirecTV with USSB (as I have) you'll have more premium movie channels than you can possibly deal with.
DirecTV is pretty much the acknowledged leader when it comes to sports. You can get, at your option, several regional sports networks
As far as the Big Four networks are concerned, you can pretty much forget receiving them via your dish, unless you can demonstrate that it is impossible for you to receive them with an antenna. (After all, they can't have you watching CBS or NBC and not seeing the local advertisements, can they?) If you want to discontinue your cable service, your best bet is to just pick up an antenna. If the networks in your area broadcast at any reasonable strength, a small pair of "rabbit ears" should be all you really need. This is all that I use, and the quality of the reception rivals the quality of the cable picture! Reception of network TV via antenna is not nearly as antiquated a notion as it seems.
Finally, another thing I like about DirecTV is the pay-per-view movie channels. Channels 100-199 are all recent movies that have hit the video stores; by pressing a couple of buttons on your remote, you can watch one at your leisure for $2.99, which is what you would pay for a new release at Blockbuster. Once you "buy" a movie, you can watch it for up to twelve hours, so if you get interrupted you can always go back and see parts of it again later. You also get a coupon every month good for $2.50 off a pay-per-view purchase, so if you only watch one movie a month, you get it for $0.49. Not too bad of a deal.
Anyway, these are just some observations. I'm sure that subscribers of other dish providers can offer some similar ones.
We're going down, in a spiral to the ground
A lot of this is covered in other postings, but I'll summarize what I've found out looking into this over the past few weeks:
1) You probably won't pay any less for programming on satellite than would for cable if you have only one TV and one decoder box. You will probably get more channels.
2) Dish Network is better for Movies, etc. DirectTV is better for sports. Most of the below applies to Dish Network, but Direct TV has similar deals.
3) You can get "local" stations (meaning networks and regional broadcast channels) if you live on either coast and don't get good broadcast reception. (I live in a rural area of NJ, in a valley.) You're supposed to have no cable for 90 days to qualify, but in practice they don't follow that very closely. The add-on package costs extra, and (for now) requires a second dish. If you let them install the whole works for $99, they throw in the second dish free.
4) If you only get 1 receiver, and sign up for the full boat programming package, you get the first receiver and dish "free" (via rebate).
5) If you have multiple TV's (or VCR) each needs it's own receiver to pick up different channels concurrently. You can get a "dual LNB" dish and hang up to 3 receivers on it. To add more receivers, you need a "matrix switch". Each receiver adds $4.99 to the programming bill, but you get all programming on all receivers. A basic model receiver costs $99. Fancier ones are more.
I started this because my wife wanted to watch HBO in the bedroom. The cable company told us we'd have to get a second box and pay for HBO a SECOND TIME, a policy I found "objectionable". During my research process, I got a good deal on a big (54") TV that made DSS look even more appealing, but lately I've been having second thoughts because I have kids, multiple TV's, and other complications. I might just stick with the cable and get a DVD player. It depends on how the cable reception looks on the new TV. They're delivering it tomorrow, so I'll find out pretty quick.
You're probably referring to DISH Network, in which case your info is out of date. They *almost* had to give up the NY/LA broadcast channels in the beginning of June, but there was an overruling (or act of Congress or something). In either case, I still get New York and LA local channels.
I don't know about other cities, but you can definitely receive NY/LA stations with the single dish. A second dish (pointed in the opposite direction) gives you some extra PPV channels, Bloomberg (hail Bloomberg) TV, the NASA Channel and a couple crappy religious channels.
I live near Trenton, NJ which is just about the midpoint between Philadelphia and New York. The Philadelphia signals come in OK over my omnidirectional antenna, but then I don't give a fsck about Philadelphia since all of my business is in New York and Connecticut. I asked the DISH Network rep about getting New York channels (and LA, too for a couple more bucks). She asked me about my ability to receive local signals. I explained that the Philadelphia stations are a little fuzzy and New York is very snowy. BAM! NY/LA channels came through after 5 minutes.
The thing about local channels is that aside from the news, all of the programs are basically the same around the country. That's why a lot of the local stations have their panties in a bunch, it's because for the first time they're getting competition from other stations that carry the exact same programming. Instead of ABC v NBC v CBS, it's now ABC in city A v ABC in city B.
Overall I'm very happy with DISH Network. There are three basic packages starting at 19.95/mo. The first gives you the top 40 channels that people watch. For $27.95 you get the top 60 channels + 30 channels of music. For $28.95 you get a package that will soon have about 100 basic channels. Of course, everyone has the ability to order PPV (14 channels of it w/one dish) and premium channels. DISH also features foreign channels (for a fee) in case you're homesick for the motherland.
The system is fairly easy to navigate since there is an on-screen menu. Interactive data channels are coming soon.
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!