Posted by
ryuzaki0
on from the Hi-my-name-is-4X323TY88-C-what's-yours? dept.
razorwire writes "Via HNN: Wired News is reporting that a 1996 law to require Social Security numbers on drivers' licenses may be amended to require digital records of your fingerprints and other personal data to be stored in an embedded chip. Sounds very creepy to me. "
Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses
by
Analog
·
· Score: 2
Reminds me of an interview I saw with a law professor during the whole Lewinski thing. The reviewer pointed out that it's illegal to release any grand jury testimony to the general public, as congress had done with Clinton's.
The law professor stated that as congress had passed the law, they could make an exception to it any time they wanted. If that don't send shivers down your spine...
"Sorry officer, I was standing too close to a magnetic field."
"I forgot to change the batteries."
"Wouldn't you know it, WindowsID crashed."
*Do not fold, spindle or mutilate*
Before the privacy adovacates get medieval on this
by
Masem
·
· Score: 2
READ THE ARTICLE
The senator that wants to introduce this is aiming to use it to curb illegal immigration. Based on his comments, I doubt that he was aware of privacy concerns at the time.
Also be aware that everyone's favorite organization, the ACLU, is already all over this, warning of its privacy violations for trying to something as 'bad' as illegal immigration.
--
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
for anyone looking for the text of the laws
by
JimBobJoe
·
· Score: 2
"..and upon each man will bear the mark of the beast.."
-- or something like that.. see: bible
"..the mark! They are going to put an ID on each persons' hand.."
-- or something like that.. see: Naked (movie)
"The mark is on everything.. the UPC symbol! Doesn't the bible say something that without the mark people won't be able to buy, sell or trade? It's the UPC symbol!"
-- or something like that.. see: not sure where that came from
"How could they steal your identity?"
-- or something like that... See: The Net
"Never give out any information"
-- or something like that... See: mama
"First!!!"
-- or something like that... See: Anonymous Coward
--
--
Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
Why I want a National ID card.
by
neo
·
· Score: 2
My personal opinion is that we already HAVE a national ID card. It's just that most people don't take the time to get one. We call them Passports.
But most people will never get one, so it's clear that we need some form of identification.
It's been a kludge for agencies to use the SSN as a substitute for a national Identity Number. What does access to my Social Security Fund have to do with who I am?
The other seeming rediculous form of Identity is the driver's license. Many states have given up telling people that it's not for ID and offer "walker's licences" so that people who don't drive can have an ID card.
The bottom line is that in a world full of databases, I would rather have a central ID number associated with a PIN or retinal scan or finger print than what we have now. It's horribly easy to steal someone's identity by getting their SSN number. That's what scares me.
So I welcome a national ID number system as long as it's combined with a user controlable confirmation.
According to the article, Lamar smith is "doggedly opposed to illegal immigration." Before we assume that he's out to be Big Brother, you've gotta wonder if he knows the possible implications here. It's a worrisome idea to most, I'm sure, but I don't know it's all that bad.
Having your social security number is not really a big deal. Where I live, my SSN is printed right on my driver's license. Having my fingerprint encoded on it, yes, that might be weird. However, I've really got to think that anything like this might not really be all that bad. What could possibly lead to more security would certainly not be a bad thing, and having a license which would be much more difficult to forge would be good. I've seen friends with fake licenses - certainly not anything professional, but what they did with an inkjet printer is amazing - you'd never know with a casual glance at one of these that they weren't real.
I especially loved the part from the ACLU... "We don't need a national ID card to be the legacy of efforts to keep undocumented people from working." Maybe I'm ignorant, but who's undocumented? I can't think of a circumstance where you would be legally in this country and working and not be documented. It seems impossible.
Smith at first strikes me as somewhat naive - not realizing what a privacy debate he's sparking - but before he gets flamed to death, he might have a good idea. He might not be going at it right, but it's not a bad idea. And really, if you're that worried about the government knowing your personal information, just think about what they can do without you knowing it...
Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses
by
nosilA
·
· Score: 2
The law does not take effect until this October, and even then the SSN does not have to be visible, it can be electronically encoded. Currently VA licenses (at least mine which expires this october) don't have any bar code or magnetic stripe on it, but that will obviously change.
(from the original law) (ii) Social security number.--Except as provided in subparagraph (B), the license or document shall contain a social security account number that can be read visually or by electronic means.
The DOT does not want SSN's to be required, the ACLU doesn't want SSN's to be required, and Congress 30 years ago didn't want SSN's to be required. Unfortunately all we need is 274 + 51 + 1 people to want it and there's nothing we can do until next November.
It is illegal for *you* to use your SSN as ID, so just refuse on the basis that the laws are contradictory.
-yeah, I'm tired too DeathB... I woke up earlier than you!
Re:The *require* SSNs to be on the card?
by
eponymous+cohort
·
· Score: 2
When my wife and I moved to MA, they made the driver license # the same as the SSN, so I don't really have the option of removing my SSN from the card.;)
--
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
Paula Jones was living off her 'legal fund' and other mysterious donations from republican interests.
Going from a government salary to unemployed to a bunch of strange income sources seems like a pretty ripe reason to come out on top of the audit computer's list. --
Having a singular ID will simply make it easier for the law abiding to not get wrongfully hassled in a difficult situation. After all, if you carry comprehensive identification at all times, then there's no need for background checks, credential verification, proof of credit of employment...
Hell, I'm surprised that they're not considering making this thing implantable. But for all the convenience that such an ID would bring, it should be a privilege that one elects to exercise, not a 'right' that is imposed by the system. I should have the option of choosing to have to sit in the cruiser while they verify identity.
And while we're already waxing paranoid on this subject, is anyone else bothered by the routine foot/fingerprinting of children? What's next? Their SSN/barcode tatooed above their hairline?
--
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
Re:I don't want my fingerprints on my license!
by
jabber
·
· Score: 2
I don't want to carry my fingerprints around with me all the time.
Umm, you already do. The only thing that having then [encrypted] in an ID chip wouuld accomplish is prove that the ID you just used to cash that big check is in fact your ID.
It sounds a lot like having a name tag on luggage. Anyone can carry it, but if your name and the name on the case are not the same, the case is probably not yours.
The creepy side is (short of an imperialist fed) that the data will be available via fed comuters, which are only as protected as they are protected. If the fed can get data out, so can someone else. If the fed can modify it (record update) so can someone else. And we wouldn't even know it. Does this sound like The Net yet?
--
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
Some time after I got my mag-striped texas ID, the darndest thing happened. A very powerful magnet shomehow came in contact with the strip repeatedly. I hope these microchips are stronger. Especially because when I microwave a burrito, I sometimes drop my ID in there by accident.
-- Praise the Force Field! Praise the Laser Project!
Slackware Loon #19830573
Does anyone have a more exact reference to the 1996 law that is going to require states to use SSNs starting in 1999? I'd be very interested in this.
Today, I am the proud posessor of an Ohio driver's license without my SSN. The SSN is optional in Ohio. Also, Michigan uses driver licence numbers that are independant of the SSN. At least for now.
My wife gets a little frustrated with me, because I'm one of those cranks who, from time to time, will make a sticking point about the SSN. Sometimes, all it takes is a simple refusal to give the number, and you discover that it was optional all allong. Sometimes it's tougher than that.
During last year's move to Ohio, we had to sign up for electric service via Toledo Edison, which insisted upon a SSN for activation of service. Their phone people absolutely would not budge on this. Actual conversation transcript:
Me: "So, what you're saying is that my only options are to give you this number, or to sit in the dark and freeze."
Them: (pause)... "Well, yes, those are your options."
I realize that at this point, this would be where most people cave in to the power of convenience. I decided that it was time to not just get mad, but to get even. So, I looked up the address of the Ohio Public Utilities Commission on the web, called their complaint line, and (wonder of wonders) found that they were incredibly helpful. I explained my situation, was told that "they can't do that to you", and they gave me a number of a manager at Toledo Edison to call, with instructions to call them back if TE gave me any more trouble.
Lo and behold, when I called this office at Toledo Edison, the person on the other end of the line cheerfuly explained that, in fact, they didhave a procedure that allowed one to sign up for electric power without using a SSN, it simply involved showing up in person at a Toledo Edison office. So I did that.
Further dark side, though -- while this person at Edison headquarters was clueful and helpful, she asked at the end of the call if there was anything more I wanted, or if I wanted to speak to any management about this. Fool that I am, I said "sure, I'd love to give a piece of my mind to your management, thanks for asking."
I explained very nicely to this man what had happened up to this point, and suggested that they obviously had a training problem with the operators if they would insist that a procedure doesn't exist when a call to the state PUC proved that it did. Mr. Pointy-Hair decides that the issue isn't the fact that they are operating in violation of their state regulatory agency, but the fact that I would want to do something so inconceivable as to not give my SSN over the phone. At this point I've over my stupid quota for the day, so I remind him that
I'm the customer here
Therefore, I'm right
It is supremely stupid to argue with your customers and to tell them that it's their problem if you're not giving them good service
Toledo Edision is in violation of the law here
He owes me a thank you rather than abuse for taking my own time to explain to him the bug in their system
And it's time to hang up on this bozo, because I doubt it's in my power to give him a clue
Moral: If you're serious about SSN privacy, prepare for some inconvenience, and watch that high blood pressure, it's bad for the health.
You're gonna have to answer to the Coca-Cola company. -- Colonel "Bat" Guano, Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
I don't want my fingerprints on my license!
by
Imperator
·
· Score: 2
I don't want my fingerprints on my driver's license! When I get stopped by the police, my fingerprints will be safely at home, encrypted. I don't want to carry my fingerprints around with me all the time.
That's why we need the BSDL (BS Driver's License). Anyone can get one and modify it, so long as they don't try and pass me.
-Imperator
--
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
I wish I knew where to look up a source for what I have to say. I'm pretty sure the Social Security Act that started all of this specifically states that your SSN is not to be used as a national identification number. Does anyone have more info?
Show us your papers! What, no papers? To the showers!
-- Do really dense people warp space more than others?
Well, here is a link to a compilation of SSA laws and a history of the SSN. Although the history is interesting on it's own, look at years 1971-1975.
-- "Why should I be content to simply live in this world, when I, as a human being, can CREATE it?" - Oertel
Y'all are missing the REAL problem
by
Unknown+Poltroon
·
· Score: 2
The national id card dosent make a difference either way. When every cop/bouncer/stalker has their handy dandy palm pilot/dna anlyzer(they're developing a handheld dna tester for crime scenes) who cares if you have a little plastic card with your name, life history, sexual preferences and the last 10,000 places youve been checked appear, along with your picture and thumbprint, the little plastic card dosent matter.
-- All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses
by
Manax
·
· Score: 2
There is a law, the "Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996". Do a search anywhere on those terms and you'll find a sizeable list of sites, such as:
You are right though, from what I understand, it should be illegal to use the SSN outside of "tax purposes" but I think there are plenty of current violations or at least obvious bending of the rules.
-- "Why should I be content to simply live in this world, when I, as a human being, can CREATE it?" - Oertel
SSN is voluntary to begin with !
by
UnknownSoldier
·
· Score: 2
Sounds like it's time to get an International Drivers Permit (for those of you who don't have one yet.)
Funny, how the article never mentions that there is actually no law that requires a person to have a SSN. (yes, you CAN work, drive, live, etc, without one.)
Search www.yahoo.com for the "Sovereignty" movement. i.e. peacefully and lawfully regaining our lost freedom(s).
One place to start is: http://www.nyx.net/~imschira/frogfarm/fffaq16.ht ml
Start with a copy of Black's Law dictionary, and the Constitution, and do your own research !:-)
Slashdot Mirror
The law professor stated that as congress had passed the law, they could make an exception to it any time they wanted. If that don't send shivers down your spine...
"I forgot to change the batteries."
"Wouldn't you know it, WindowsID crashed."
*Do not fold, spindle or mutilate*
The senator that wants to introduce this is aiming to use it to curb illegal immigration. Based on his comments, I doubt that he was aware of privacy concerns at the time.
Also be aware that everyone's favorite organization, the ACLU, is already all over this, warning of its privacy violations for trying to something as 'bad' as illegal immigration.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
They are available here.
"..the mark! They are going to put an ID on each persons' hand.."
"The mark is on everything.. the UPC symbol! Doesn't the bible say something that without the mark people won't be able to buy, sell or trade? It's the UPC symbol!"
"How could they steal your identity?"
"Never give out any information"
"First!!!"
--
Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
My personal opinion is that we already HAVE a national ID card. It's just that most people don't take the time to get one. We call them Passports.
But most people will never get one, so it's clear that we need some form of identification.
It's been a kludge for agencies to use the SSN as a substitute for a national Identity Number. What does access to my Social Security Fund have to do with who I am?
The other seeming rediculous form of Identity is the driver's license. Many states have given up telling people that it's not for ID and offer "walker's licences" so that people who don't drive can have an ID card.
The bottom line is that in a world full of databases, I would rather have a central ID number associated with a PIN or retinal scan or finger print than what we have now. It's horribly easy to steal someone's identity by getting their SSN number. That's what scares me.
So I welcome a national ID number system as long as it's combined with a user controlable confirmation.
John -
According to the article, Lamar smith is "doggedly opposed to illegal immigration." Before we assume that he's out to be Big Brother, you've gotta wonder if he knows the possible implications here. It's a worrisome idea to most, I'm sure, but I don't know it's all that bad.
Having your social security number is not really a big deal. Where I live, my SSN is printed right on my driver's license. Having my fingerprint encoded on it, yes, that might be weird. However, I've really got to think that anything like this might not really be all that bad. What could possibly lead to more security would certainly not be a bad thing, and having a license which would be much more difficult to forge would be good. I've seen friends with fake licenses - certainly not anything professional, but what they did with an inkjet printer is amazing - you'd never know with a casual glance at one of these that they weren't real.
I especially loved the part from the ACLU... "We don't need a national ID card to be the legacy of efforts to keep undocumented people from working." Maybe I'm ignorant, but who's undocumented? I can't think of a circumstance where you would be legally in this country and working and not be documented. It seems impossible.
Smith at first strikes me as somewhat naive - not realizing what a privacy debate he's sparking - but before he gets flamed to death, he might have a good idea. He might not be going at it right, but it's not a bad idea. And really, if you're that worried about the government knowing your personal information, just think about what they can do without you knowing it...
-David Ziegler
-dziegler@hotmail.com
-David Ziegler
-
The law does not take effect until this October, and even then the SSN does not have to be visible, it can be electronically encoded. Currently VA licenses (at least mine which expires this october) don't have any bar code or magnetic stripe on it, but that will obviously change.
(from the original law)
(ii) Social security number.--Except as provided in
subparagraph (B), the license or document shall contain a
social security account number that can be read visually or
by electronic means.
The DOT does not want SSN's to be required, the ACLU doesn't want SSN's to be required, and Congress 30 years ago didn't want SSN's to be required. Unfortunately all we need is 274 + 51 + 1 people to want it and there's nothing we can do until next November.
It is illegal for *you* to use your SSN as ID, so just refuse on the basis that the laws are contradictory.
-yeah, I'm tired too DeathB... I woke up earlier than you!
When my wife and I moved to MA, they made the driver license # the same as the SSN, so I don't really have the option of removing my SSN from the card. ;)
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
Nixon was a paranoid nut.
Paula Jones was living off her 'legal fund' and other mysterious donations from republican interests.
Going from a government salary to unemployed to a bunch of strange income sources seems like a pretty ripe reason to come out on top of the audit computer's list.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Oh, I believe abuses of power happen. That doesn't mean that IRS wouldn't have audited Paula Jones regardless.
--
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Except of course if it's mandatory... Ahem!
Having a singular ID will simply make it easier for the law abiding to not get wrongfully hassled in a difficult situation. After all, if you carry comprehensive identification at all times, then there's no need for background checks, credential verification, proof of credit of employment...
Hell, I'm surprised that they're not considering making this thing implantable. But for all the convenience that such an ID would bring, it should be a privilege that one elects to exercise, not a 'right' that is imposed by the system. I should have the option of choosing to have to sit in the cruiser while they verify identity.
And while we're already waxing paranoid on this subject, is anyone else bothered by the routine foot/fingerprinting of children? What's next? Their SSN/barcode tatooed above their hairline?
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
I don't want to carry my fingerprints around with me all the time.
Umm, you already do. The only thing that having then [encrypted] in an ID chip wouuld accomplish is prove that the ID you just used to cash that big check is in fact your ID.
It sounds a lot like having a name tag on luggage. Anyone can carry it, but if your name and the name on the case are not the same, the case is probably not yours.
The creepy side is (short of an imperialist fed) that the data will be available via fed comuters, which are only as protected as they are protected. If the fed can get data out, so can someone else. If the fed can modify it (record update) so can someone else. And we wouldn't even know it. Does this sound like The Net yet?
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
Some time after I got my mag-striped texas ID, the darndest thing happened. A very powerful magnet shomehow came in contact with the strip repeatedly. I hope these microchips are stronger. Especially because when I microwave a burrito, I sometimes drop my ID in there by accident.
Praise the Force Field! Praise the Laser Project! Slackware Loon #19830573
Does anyone have a more exact reference to the 1996 law that is going to require states to use SSNs starting in 1999? I'd be very interested in this.
Today, I am the proud posessor of an Ohio driver's license without my SSN. The SSN is optional in Ohio. Also, Michigan uses driver licence numbers that are independant of the SSN. At least for now.
My wife gets a little frustrated with me, because I'm one of those cranks who, from time to time, will make a sticking point about the SSN. Sometimes, all it takes is a simple refusal to give the number, and you discover that it was optional all allong. Sometimes it's tougher than that.
During last year's move to Ohio, we had to sign up for electric service via Toledo Edison, which insisted upon a SSN for activation of service. Their phone people absolutely would not budge on this. Actual conversation transcript:
I realize that at this point, this would be where most people cave in to the power of convenience. I decided that it was time to not just get mad, but to get even. So, I looked up the address of the Ohio Public Utilities Commission on the web, called their complaint line, and (wonder of wonders) found that they were incredibly helpful. I explained my situation, was told that "they can't do that to you", and they gave me a number of a manager at Toledo Edison to call, with instructions to call them back if TE gave me any more trouble.
Lo and behold, when I called this office at Toledo Edison, the person on the other end of the line cheerfuly explained that, in fact, they didhave a procedure that allowed one to sign up for electric power without using a SSN, it simply involved showing up in person at a Toledo Edison office. So I did that.
Further dark side, though -- while this person at Edison headquarters was clueful and helpful, she asked at the end of the call if there was anything more I wanted, or if I wanted to speak to any management about this. Fool that I am, I said "sure, I'd love to give a piece of my mind to your management, thanks for asking."
I explained very nicely to this man what had happened up to this point, and suggested that they obviously had a training problem with the operators if they would insist that a procedure doesn't exist when a call to the state PUC proved that it did. Mr. Pointy-Hair decides that the issue isn't the fact that they are operating in violation of their state regulatory agency, but the fact that I would want to do something so inconceivable as to not give my SSN over the phone. At this point I've over my stupid quota for the day, so I remind him that
Moral: If you're serious about SSN privacy, prepare for some inconvenience, and watch that high blood pressure, it's bad for the health.
You're gonna have to answer to the Coca-Cola company. -- Colonel "Bat" Guano, Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
That's why we need the BSDL (BS Driver's License). Anyone can get one and modify it, so long as they don't try and pass me.
-Imperator
Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
I wish I knew where to look up a source for what I have to say. I'm pretty sure the Social Security Act that started all of this specifically states that your SSN is not to be used as a national identification number. Does anyone have more info?
Show us your papers! What, no papers? To the showers!
Do really dense people warp space more than others?
The national id card dosent make a difference either way. When every cop/bouncer/stalker has their handy dandy palm pilot/dna anlyzer(they're developing a handheld dna tester for crime scenes) who cares if you have a little plastic card with your name, life history, sexual preferences and the last 10,000 places youve been checked appear, along with your picture and thumbprint, the little plastic card dosent matter.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
http://www.fairus.org/03205707.htm or the full text here:
http://www.visalaw.com/docs/IIIRA.html
You are right though, from what I understand, it should be illegal to use the SSN outside of "tax purposes" but I think there are plenty of current violations or at least obvious bending of the rules.
"Why should I be content to simply live in this world, when I, as a human being, can CREATE it?" - Oertel
Sounds like it's time to get an International Drivers Permit (for those of you who don't have one yet.)
t ml
:-)
Funny, how the article never mentions that there is actually no law that requires a person to have a SSN. (yes, you CAN work, drive, live, etc, without one.)
Search www.yahoo.com for the "Sovereignty" movement.
i.e. peacefully and lawfully regaining our lost freedom(s).
One place to start is:
http://www.nyx.net/~imschira/frogfarm/fffaq16.h
Start with a copy of Black's Law dictionary, and the Constitution, and do your own research !