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The XMMS Future in an interview with Dev
Hexdancer wrote to us with the latest interview at
theLinux MusicStation with Dev Mazumdar, co-founder (with Hannu, the guy who wrote the original
OSS kernel sound drivers) of 4Front Technologies the commercial Linux/Unix sound driver guys. He's talking about the future of XMMS, and trying to make sound w/XMMS a killer app for Mac/Windows people, as well as the problems with working with some of the high end sound cards.
isnt XMMS basically a WinAMP port? which would make a future on Windows redundant? Hell, I didn't read the article, so I could be totally off on what I'm saying.
XMMS basically means X Mac, M$.
Get it?
Flamebait? Cool. The morons at slashdot really like this sort of pub. The next is another thing concerning VAresearch?
Price
_Performance_
Stability
very informative. thank you!
I fully agree.The sooner ALSA replaces OSS in the kernel the better.
The Linux way is to fully utilize all available hardware.
It is certainly not helping Linux achieve World Domination
by having DELIBERATELY brain damaged drivers for very important hardware.
From the interview it appears that 4FRONT derives lots of its income
from supporting comercial OS anyway.
Finally the idea that users will be lured to Linux by XMMS is ludicrous! Why would
someone switch to linux if all they get are brain damaged sound drivers that don't even allow internet teleconferencing. Martin Sevior
Well, why is their stuff still in the kernel???
I refuse to buy the commercial OSS kit on principle, even though
it might help with low-level midi processing. (What I am mainly
interested in with sound). So I use Windows for that.
The current Linux midi player module is very crippled, and further
it doesn't parse midi input for use by applications (in tems of
the midi events themselves) OR use software synths for midi
which are commonly available for most cheap sound cards.
(The more expensive ones use sampled sound, but even the
syth midi sound on cheap cards can sound damned good with
Windows, often beter than sampled sound). Linux sound apps
typically can use midi only by converting it to wave format with
something like Timidy, which sounds good but uses too much
processor. Only one app that I know of , kmid, has been able
to use software synth on my sound card with custom programming.
That was impressive. But this really shoud be in the kernel or
in a standard module. (Note: there are some older motif and
athena based midi apps which are no longer supported, like
Rosegarten, and I wish someone would update them to work
better with the current kernel and use a modern gui toolkit.).
Professional musicians need midi - mostly for entering music
in real time with an external midi keyboard and/or for entering
music by notation. Later, audio can be mixed in with that
and processed, but one can't create music with an Mp3
player or ripper. Actually, using a mod editor
may be the best way to create music on Linux at this time.
Everything can be entered on a regular pc keyboard without
midi equipment. Somewhat primitive, but sounds good and later
can be exported to mp3 format for publication).
The so-called OSS free modules are crippled in other ways. Get
this crippleware out of the kernel and out of standard modules
shipped by distros, ESPECIALLY socalled GPL distros like
Debian, Bruce, and Stampede.
XMMS sucks. It's just a cheap clone of WinAmp, and is not at
all competetitive with Windows amps like the real WinAmp or
even better, Sonique. Now, if I want a commercial mp3 player
I'd rather have these companies port their wares to Linux as
closed-source commercial apps, free or not. I'd pay. By the
way, both WinAmp and Sonique also play modules. XMMS
doesn't.
Nobody using Windows or a Mac (for which plenty of excellent
music software, both audio and midi, is available, much of it
free) is going to be interested in what OSS has to offer. OSS
can't have it both ways. This is just a pr stunt to keep hardware
manufacturers on the hook with non-disclosure and other
disasters for Linux. Get these mofos out of here.
VA Research is NOT paying for this comment.
#include dumps the source of one file into another, creating what is clearly a derivative work. It is illegal.
Linus chooses not to enforce the GPL on the kernel for some binary-only modules. That is his choice. The ALSA authors do enforce it.
You can't make proprietary drivers. There is no problem with apps. ALSA is GPL, but ALSA-Lib is LGPL. You can also always open /dev/dsp manually instead of using ALSA-Lib. No issue for proprietary apps.
I thought I'd clear up one point: ALSA is GPL, so one cannot write proprietary ALSA drivers. ALSA-Lib is LGPL, so one can write proprietary ALSA apps.
Binary-only drivers are obsolete anyways, as they tie you to specific kernel versions, and are only useful so long as the parent company still supports them.
As far as all the kernel developers go, OSS is scheduled to be obsoleted by ALSA.
Also they aren't porting to other OS's..that was just the orignal posters misunderstanding.
you guys are insane, :)
YES its true 4Front is owned by M$, and they intend to DESTROY linux!!
I figure alot of you have jumped to conclusions before you've even finished reading the interview.
I personally think xmms is great..i hate the winamp look about it, but i guess i could get off my LAZY ass like you guys and make one.
Support for video in its various forms would be very cool..and as it will use PLUGINS (use your brains) it will not be a bloated app at all.
The MikMOD plugin always causes XMMS to segfault when I try it...
I dont see whats different between for instance reverse engineering Glide and reverse engineering ALSA's driver API. Both feasible, and as far as I can see both totally legit. Even easier for ALSA because the documentation isnt covered by trade secret law.
if we want ALSA to succeed we need to allow other
Os's to access the format. If I understand correctly the GPL would prevent BSD from using
the ALSA drivers because they would have to link their kernel against it. unless exceptions were maid for them this could keep them on oss
drivers
I'm not afraid to dis other peoples hard work so here goes:
Oss is crap for many techical reasons, including witholding bug fixes for the free version.
Oss is crap for political reasons; why the hell should we allow corporate shareware BULLSHIT like this in the kernel?
Not a coward, just lacking a mail box.
23 for a cd? In the USA? I doubt. Time to buy some Lionel Ritchie and Donna Summer cdsssss.
so you would rather the artist receives $0 for your owning of their work?
;)
;P
$1 may not seem like a lot, but remember that the artist is not the only one resposible for the CD in your hands.
advertising, paying for tours, etc etc all cost money.
I'm not saying $1 is a decent share, but hell, its better than NOTHING... and it pays for the bands other expenses too. If their label doesnt make anything, they dont have a label anymore
really... i dont believe you send the artist $2 in the mail
smash (at work..)
Disclaimer: I'm not an ALSA person. I follow their mailing lists, and know Alan Cox personally (maintainer of the OSS/Free code, second in command to Linus), but otherwise I only speak for myself.
My understanding is that ALSA has Alan's blessing, and Alan's blessing will basically imply Linus' blessing once it's finished.
The GPL should not be a problem. Binary-only drivers (as SBLive!) lock users into a specific kernel version. This isn't so bad now, when you are usually only a few minor versions behind. However, when Creative releases their next sound card, and stops supporting the SBLive!, you'll eventually have to ditch your sound card, ditch Linux, or stay major versions behind. When people realize this, the ability for binary-only won't seem so important. You also don't see non-GPL in any other arenas (ethernet, etc.) in the Linux kernel, and there's no reason sound should be different.
It is my impressino that as far as Alan, and most of the other kernel developers are concerned, it looks like OSS will be obsoleted, despite 4Front's commercial interest to the contrary. Linus hates binary-only in the first place anyways (see some of his posts on the topic).
Some of us don't buy CD's because of MORALS, dude! Like, $23 for a CD, when an artist only gets $1 is joke!
Maybe alsa-project.org got slashdotted?
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
Bill - aka taniwha
--
Leave others their otherness. -- Aratak
How is a clone of Windows software supposed to draw people from Windows to Linux? They could just run the original software and stick with Windows.
Perhaps there's something about XMMS I'm missing? Is there anything it provides that doesn't exist in an equivalent Windows tool?
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Winamp is uncrippled shareware that costs $10 to register. Legally and ethically, it costs $10. In practice, most people use without paying.
As for performance, I don't see a problem with Winamp. It consistantly uses less than 5% CPU on my pII 266, and uses very little RAM. It has a fully customizable interface, and you can modify virtually everything, even including the mp3 decoding (if you want to write your own mp3 decoder plugin to replace Nitrane).
It's never crashed on me.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
However, if the Alsa guys were to make an AlsaLib, that would be different...
However, this really bugged me.
Well, to tell the truth, if ALSA does its job, OSS is obsolete. If it is what everyone wants, supporting new cards and new features (I like multiple-open of the sound card!!) OSS will go the way of the dinosaur.However, it isn't that way right now, and while ALSA is working on obsoleting OSS, the majority of programs were developed in the time when OSS was the only solution. How else can you support ALSA but by adding its support? (If you need to bolt it on, your program is broken to begin with.)
As for the whole proprietariness.. I'm more mad at sound card vendors than 4front. Obviously if a sound card vendor is brain damaged enough not to release specs, support has to come somehow.. Even so, as ``pragmatic'' as the 4front guys are, they are selling something which should be Free. By using binary-only drivers, you're tying yourself to one or two kernel versions, and if 4front went out of business (probably not going to happen, but within the realm of possibilities) you're up the proverbial polluted tributary without a means of locomotion.
Personally, I hope alsa's header files stay GPL'd. The ALSA development team has worked hard to create an entirely Free set of sound card drivers, and I'm one who thinks that people should come to us on our terms, not any other way. Our way is the GPL, so do what Trident did and release GPL'd drivers, or do what .. creative used to do .. and release detailed specs on the card so we can release GPL'd drivers. Anything else is undesirable and difficult to work with.
If they can only sustain 3 full time people that says a lot about the level of interest in commercial audio on UNIX. Operations in the Windows world usually have double digit full time staffs.
Mayby there are other advantages to mp3. E.g. I have terrible dicipline, and cannot help scratching my CD's. Having all my music on a HD enables me to protect my music from myself.
:-)
The size of an mp3man is also a good argument.
As for players, I like Freeamp
What I really hate is the way there's bugs in the free drivers which don't exist in the commercial ones. For example, the free CS4236 driver has a problem where (even if the module is already loaded) the speaker pops loudly every time a sound begins playing. The commercial driver works perfectly.
I guess my point is: it's slighly annoying to have features withheld for commercial gain, but withholding fixes to sell more product seems sleezy.
--
The GPL on the alsa.h file is not a problem for applications or kernel sound driver modules. Linus specifically makes an exception to the GPL for drivers that are loaded as modules (which must call into the GPL-ed kernel APIs) and in the same document where he makes that exception, he states that applicaitons that run on top of the Linux kernel are not derived works of the Linux kernel and need not be GPL-ed.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Perhaps the moderator guidelines need definitions added.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
It has the mikmod engine as a standard plugin. In fact, that's the same module engine Winamp's module plugin uses.
Only reason the CVS ain't public is due to I host it on one of my mashines and I don't have the bandwith to host a public XMMS CVS server.. so there you go.. set us up with a FAST CVS server we'll have it public!!
Crocodile - xmms staff
Is the ALSA API really GPL'd. While that seems very nice, surely it will inhibit acceptance of the API and the amount of support it will receive; they're not exactly in a position to dictate terms, are they? Or has Linus blessed them? It just seems like an X-style license would be more approriate. Any ALSA people reading want to explain the decision (I have no doubt they put some thought into this)? Also, any reason alsa-project.org is down?
somebody moderate this one down. some people read /. from work, where they scan proxy logs for things like porn sites (like the link that this asshole posted is to)
-[Blaine]- "'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."
But will non-GPL programs (not necessarily proprietary-- think BSD, MPL et. al.) be able to use ALSA? Or is alsa.h (asound.h?) only needed to hack a sound driver?
(My concern is with apps that just play sound-- if they HAVE to be GPL'ed, should they be targetted to ALSA, then there's a bit of a problem there)
iSKUNK!
I guess the header was a little unclear. The article states that XMMS will draw users FROM Mac and Win TO Linux. Sounds like a good idea to me!
In a world that is Free and Open, who needs Windows and Gates?
What the hell are you buy on cd? I buy the cd's because the bands need support. But I don't deal with any of that major label bull, so the bands do get the support they need.
TECHNICALLY xmms is not a port.. it is a clone.. a port requires source code of the original :) Besides, after reading the article you find out that xmms is going into the video playback arena to more closely fit its new name (hard to be a 'multi-'media system when all you do is play audio...
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
I was kindof interviewing a member of the devlopment team informally on IRC out of curiosity, he mentioned quicktime (yes, even 4.0) and mpeg video, but not indeo and stuff... for mpeg they are using the mpegtv SDK, according to this guy.. I have no idea about the others, but of course they *have* to be binary-only... I think it would be cool to work with xanim and try to make the video codec archicecture binary compatible with xanim's... then things would take off much faster and have a better support base.. Of course the feasibility of this might be low... but then again, xanim is opensource so the loader code is right there for exanimination, and since this is a completely new feature, I don't see how it could be infeasible..
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Well, I can see it, as long as we forget that XMMS is for X :) I personally think development towards windows would be a waste of resources, they already have these tools... I think the community would best be served by focusing on linux and trying to make a good multimedia player.. with the audio flexibility of what was x11amp, the video flexibilty of xanim+mtv, and the interface features of mtv (full-screen playback is cool), then there would be far fewer complaints about multimedia lacking in linux..
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Despite all the supposed good intention of buying x11amp, I suspect a bit more sinister motives... They already shut down the cvs server to the public (public access only through tarballs). And the statement about the mpeg support already being done obviously indicates that development isn't released even to the cvs available to the public. I see this as closing development off bit by bit... My extremely paranoid theory is that they saw OSS being overtaken by ALSA in the future, and will be closing it up and making it a commercial product in the future.. Well, even if they did it, if they made xmms a good product with true multimedia support that would interface with ALSA, I would be tempeted to buy it, provided that they conduct business sanely. I see a lot of comments of comments talking about how evil OSS is because they don't make all their source code available and free of charge. I think it is stupid that people REQUIRE that a person give away this/her work in order to be accepted. GPL is nice, but after someone earns a reputation, they ought to be able to sell a product without being put down.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
4Front made the following claims wrt ALSA:
1. ALSA copied the OSS API and added a couple of things to it.
2. ALSA is for experimenters, not people who need commercial support
3. ALSA's use of the GPL will taint every product that uses it.
4. ALSA is spreading FUD about OSS, calling OSS "obsolete".
5. OSS hasn't challenged the claims in 4 publically, because polite people don't dis others hard work.
6. ALSA has managed to come up with a decent MIDI interface, which OSS will take and credit the ALSA team for.
Item 5 confuses me. I mean, except for the MIDI stuff, all the 4Front rep did was dis ALSA. He acted as if the unreleased ALSA as is now in development was a reasonable thing to compare to a released, commercial product -- ALSA doesn't have software mixing, but OSS does (yet software mixing is a major things ALSA will have that OSS/lite lacks); ALSA is for adventurous developers only, without any commercial support (true, but it's a system in development, not released yet), etc.
Who is spreading FUD?
Whaa? XMMS has a future on windows? Seems kinda odd..
oh, btw, FIRST POST!
hey, if i can run all my Windows programs (WinAmp, Netscape, et al) I will. That, and GiMP will soon make me a convert. But, for now, I'll stick with Windows. (My ethernet card isn't supported by Linux, and I'm too lazy to do anything about it. But when my laptop arrives...)
..................................@ @
i dont display scores, and my threshhold is -1. post accordingly.
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