Slashdot Mirror
No AirPort for the French?
First Person writes "Following on the heels of the Apple 'Lethal Weapon G4' ads, the French military may prevent Apple'sAirPort wireless system from being sold in France. According to this article, the 2.4-GHz frequency is reserved for the army. Equipment broadcasting at that frequency may therefore damage or be damaged by military hardware. As wireless systems start to proliferate, these conflicts should become increasingly common." (The article's in French; perhaps utilize the Babelfish thing, eh?)
What are you talking about ?
If you are talking about history, there was no reason for the French NOT to use their own meridian when every nation had its own. I even saw in the retro page of a recent (September?)edition of scientific american that some Americans where pushing for the adoption of the Boston meridian. Are Americans as stupid as the French then ? Or was it a normal thing to do at that time in history, long before UTC and GPS?
If you are talking about "la meridienne verte" (http://www.sistic.com.sg/tkevents/promotion/frenc h.htm), you should do a little reality check before believing media stories. At the time, /. just reposted a BS article from some stupid reporter who did not have anything better to do than play with the love-hate relationship between English-speaking countries and France. In reality, nobody wants to change the "standard" meridian used in France. The French are only planting a line of tree along a North-South line running accross France. Guess what, such a line is called a meridian, whether it runs accross Paris, London, Moscow, Washington, Boston or Barstow, CA.
Forget your cliches about France. Reality is different, sometimes worse, sometimes better.
And seen from accross the atlantic, more often than not it is the Americans who refuse to send their troops in peace keeping missions. The American public is so afraid of having a GI killed for "non-selfish" reasons.
Travel abroad, that'll expend your horizons.
And seen from accross the atlantic, more often than not it is the Americans who refuse to send their troops in peace keeping missions. The American public is so afraid of having a GI killed for "non-selfish" reasons.
Travel abroad, that'll expand your horizons.
...spend a day in a Renault Dauphine, and you too will hate the French.
Nope, sorry, that was just because they hate the English so much... Somewhere along the way to dwarfing England, we dropped off their 'cool' list. Um, darn.
Will LA just, like, secede from the rest of the US? They're such an embarrassment to the rest of us. Then they can go & do whatever they'd like. Escape from LA, baby.
>And seen from accross the atlantic, more often >than not it is the Americans who refuse to send >their troops in peace keeping missions.
At least partly because we are expected to send 10,000 troops for every other countries 1,000. You think there is some altruistic meaning behind these peace keeping missions? Get real.
Ummm...I don't remember Apple PR mentioning anything about Airport's use in airports, though that would be a nice place. Hell, anywhere I get stuck for long periods of time would be a great place, and that includes airplanes.
Actually, the place where people love the Airport is schools. Quick! Someone call Dateline NBC and let them know that Apple is threatening the safety and security of children by turning their schools into missile bait!
CD players, like other digital devices, have circuits switching at various high frequencies. The typically sharp rise and fall times of those signals means many harmonics are generated. Controlled edge rates, termination, and proper shielding can minimize the amount of RF energy radiated, but those all cost money.
I'd prefer that the pilot heard the control tower rather than your tunes.
Let's take them one at a time.
Warnings:
They repeat the warnings every time because you are on an AIRPLANE, not in your living room. Airplanes occasionally crash. Living rooms, not quite so often. It's good to remind people that this is a finite possibility and that they should know what the hell to do.
Life jackets:
The most recent that comes to my mind was back in, I think, the early or mid 80s when an airplane crashed in a river (the Potomac?) just outside of Washington D.C. in the middle of the winter. While, personally, I don't expect the life jacket to be that significant in saving my life, I'd expect that it might help my significant other who does not know how to swim.
Seatbelts:
Before I begin, let me point out that I am not a safety expert. This is just based on theory.
The impacts felt by auto passengers who suffer head on collisions are different from those of airline passengers, who are more in need of something to keep them in their seat. I used to be one of those passengers who took my seatbelt off as soon as the light told me I could. One flight I was on, the plane hit some unexpected turbulence and I found myself hitting my head on the overhead compartment as the plane disappeared out from underneath me.
When you consider the "crash position", which keeps you from being hit by anything flying through the cabin, a three point harness wouldn't be as much good.
Windows:
I'd assume it's cheaper to produce the windows all in the same size. Personally, I sit on the aisle, so I've never thought about it. Who cares?
Crash Position:
Like I said above, it keeps your head down in the event of things flying through the cabin (you're protected by the seat in front of you). I'd also guess that it keeps you from moving around as much. I'd argue--again I'm not a safety expert--that being curled up in a ball is safer than being spread out.
---
If you want to be offended about something, I'd say be offended with the "safety" checks before you get on the airline. You MUST have photo ID that shows who you are. I got really offended when my 75 year-old father had to travel half-way across Vermont to get a photo ID in order to fly out to see his daughter because his driver's license does not have a photo.
Someday when I'm rich, I'm going to show up at the airport with no ID. When they do not let me use my ticket, I will sue the airline and the FAA for illegally restricting my right to travel.
No, please just *think*. The french military do use several frequencies. They probably have all kinds of devices to counter problems on a specific frequency. The whole idea is to be able to trace noise to its source. By making it illegal to encroach on the military frequency, they simply have more leverage to pinpoint problems, and to enforce the prohobition. Just so that, in case of war or other incidents, they do know that frequency problems really come from enemies, and not from ignoring friends. It's rather surprising that Apple didn't check that one, they usually are pretty thorough when it comes to adapting to local customs. And, for those of you who don't like the military, similar prohibitions exist for the police force.
that kind of joke was precisely Ok for me, too bad somebody (probably a US guy) added a post a little bit further in the thread about french surrending and not fighting etc...
anyway that's America, you can't help the bad sides to rise when the top shines
Pierre (precisely!) (PLB)
best news i have heard all day
If anyone's doesn't want to Babelfish the thing, and doesn't speak French, here's a quick translation I made of the thing....it was a little late at night, so please excuse any grammar faults.
---------------------
"Apple's iBook impinges on the French Army's frequencies."
Paris (AFP) Fri 24 Sep 99,
According to Friday's bulletin from CNRS "The Real Internet", the new
portable computer by Apple, the iBook, may pose a delicate problem for the
French Army: for it's wireless internet connection, it uses the 2.4 GHz
frequency, which, unless special authorization is granted, is reserved for
the French Army.
Outside of the 300 largest French cities, where the authorization is
granted implicitly after a delay of one month, every user of a machine that
operates in the 2.4 GHz range must request individual authorisation from the
TRA (The Telecommunications Regulation Agency). The TRA sends such requests
to be processed by the National Bureau of Military Frequencies, state the
TRA and the rear-admiral Jacque Bizard, the chief of the Military Bureau.
Up until now, the TRA and the army have granted certain such
authorizations to the users of said frequencies. "Last year, we received 500
requests for authorization, 195 of which were transmitted to the army,"
explained the TRA.
Most often, this concerns such businesses as are equipped with radio
networks, allowing for wireless communication between computers.
"Generally, there is no reason to say no," added rear-admiral Bizard.
However these [authorizations] only concern localized networks. By contrast,
the iBook is a device that is both light and mobile," explained the military
official.
The case of portable apparati is not specifically treated in the texts,
since all requests for authorization must "be accompanied by the projected
plan of implementation, allowing the exact localization of the implementation
site in the middle of the community in question," explains TRA's authorization
form.
A device using the 2.4 GHz frequency may damage a military device, or
vice-versa. "In contrast with all the other European countries which do not
have such regulations, in france this frequency band is reserved for the
military. Apple probably didn't think of it. But we are not about to retire
all of our equipement simply because the iBook has arrived," stated Admiral
Bizard.
"This problem has not yet caused too much time expenditure," he added.
For now, the admiral handles about 10 such requests per week, but he runs
the risk of being overflooded if the iBook is a success.
From his side, the chief marketing manager of Apple France, Hughes
Asseman, remains calm, stating that the interference range of the iBook does
not exceed 50 meters, and therefore should not cause an authorization problem.
"To make a wirless internet connection, the iBook communicates by radio
waves with the Airport terminal, hooked up to a telephone line or a cable,
within a range of 50 meters. Except for finding itself in the middle of a
military HQ, this will not cause any problems," commented Hughes Asseman. "We
are not at all concerned about the commericalization of the product."
"We must examine the technical characteristics of the device, for
example to make certain that the effective range does not exceed 50 meters,"
concluded, on his side, the chief of the National Bureau of Military
Frequencies.
In either case, the authorization requests ust e submitted individually
by every iBook owner who plans to use the Airport terminal, which is to be
available by mid-october.
The violation of these regulations may result in a 6 month prison term
and a fine of 200,000 francs [roughly $33,500], noted the TRA.
----------------------------------------------
Hope this helps....
-- Don't get sucked in by comments - only debug code.
Isn't it a bit stupid of the French Military to use equipment that is so easily damaged? Shouldn't they use equipment that is a bit more robust? What's the point of being able to hold off a battalion of Soviet tanks when your electronics can be shot to pieces by some dude carrying an Apple Mac? Did they think the Soviets would ride across the Fulda Gap and not bring one with them? "Muhammed, The French are threatening to invade us!" "Never mind, Abdul, I'll just turn my AirPort(tm) wireless network on."
No, they should sell different hardware with different freqs in different countries.
Get your facts straight. It's spelled "La Légion Étrangère."
"I have a strong feeling that French Slashdotters will not be very pleased with this joke"
Nor the Germans
I wonder if Bill Clinton has to stop using his laptop when Air Force one takes off?
2) What's abouth HEALTH ?
Working 10 hours with a hight frequencies close from your balls looks dangerous.
As being a part of EU, the French might have a problem making it illegal to block/prevent the sales iBook's in France. The EU has a law that says something like "If you can buy a product in any EU-member country, then you may not legaly block the sale in any other EU-country."
Apple said 10 when they announced the iBook, but 10 isn't a hard set limit from what I've heard. The problem is the bandwidth to and from the basestation (11 mbs) is shared between everybody connected. 10 was picked as a usable middle ground.
They tried CT2 before GSM, don't forget !
Unless you count subpostings. Not that it matters. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...
Microwave ovens operate at 2450 MHz
They may not have to rename it France but almost certainly will have to in Quebec!
steemheet@hotmail.com - who still hasn't received their password from slashdot.
Nope. We're never that lucky.
Drink only pure distilled water.
Keep an eye on the door and your hand on the gun.
no...
Trust me.
If he posts too many poorly translated or inflamatory stories, his karma drops and he can no longer post new stories.
No, squeaky-voiced adolescents are needed on the geeks-in-out-space net radio programme, so he'll keep his 'job.'
They should run their voices through a vo-coder and lower them half an octave.
That's because a smelly machine is always superior to a machine with a noisy fan. Besides, with good case design, fans are not necessary, except for machines with more than a two year warranty.
Well, the French owe Apple a favor for drawing that "gassy" guy out of France (you know, John-Phillp Gasbag, the guy who now runs Be). Maybe Apple can call the favor to get the Airport approved.
Isn't French Military and oxymoron? I mean would they even notice if something was interfering with their equipment? And that weird language they use? I mean it's only spoken by 110 million people worldwide these days, less than 2% of the world's population. What's the point of trying to communicate in it, anyway? They probably threw their radios away last time they ran out of wine and cheese so who's going to notice.
I thought Bluetooth did the 2.4-GHz thang?
Hope you're not serious in believing this is why your laptop is not to be used during takeoff (duh).
Just in case the educational system is inadequate on the flights you have been on: Any baggage (yes, laptops are baggage) MUST be stowed during takeoff. Has nothing to do with radio freq's, nuclear bombs, invading Germans, etc.., but there is a concern that if the plane should have a rough takeoff / landing (or crash, planes are more likely to crash on landing and takeoff than in the air), objects that are not tied down become projectiles.
I can think of other things I'd rather be hit in the head with than a fully loaded notebook.
I have a strong feeling that French Slashdotters will not be very pleased with this joke of Germans frequently invading their country when they wake up and log in soon...
Uh, this is the same nation that decided to make their own Prime Meridian. ANYTHING is possible.
2.4GHz is the ISM band which was selected by the 802.11 group since it's available for unlicensed use (almost) anywhere in the world (mostly because it's centered around the microwave region and no one wants that band). If Lucent (AirPort's manufacturer) switched to a different frequency range, their product wouldn't work with other 802.11 products and would probably have licensing restrictions elsewhere in the world. The next band available for unlicensed worldwide use is around 5GHz, and work is being done in that area (I think HiperLan works in that area), but it's too expensive right now.
Yes, French Military IS an oxymoron. Those freakin' cowards. Couldn't fight a bird if they tried. All the military does is roll over and bend over for people. Since when have they been a powerful force or even bothered to stand for something? Every time the US and/or England need their support, they back down. Fuck them...
Oh, well! Try *fighting* next time, Pierre! You may not win, but at least you won't be the joke country of the world, the way you are now...
Anyone concerned with national sovereignty is a white racist? You have been conditioned well.
i have some experience with this. it was the darnedest thing, i was over in France last week, and i had these iBooks i was trying to get to network, and they didn't work. But-- and this is the wierd part-- as soon as i turned the networking on, even though the iBooks couldn't communicate with each other, their speakers suddenly started playing a recording of this little girl saying numbers. Just numbers, over and over with no end. I dunno what was going on.
Uhh.. hold on, there's some kinda wierd noise outside.. whaa- there's some kind of black helicopter hovering outside my house.. What the heck is going on h
NO CARRIER
http://www.hiperlan.com/
The american people elected that piece of dirt bill clinton.
Distilled water lacks the minerals that are necessary for you body to function properly, you moron.
Good to see wackos of your kind are so stupid they'll eventually drive themselves to extinction.
-- A good white supremacist is a dead white supremacist, but he doesn't need any help to get there.
But TANSTAFL, there are always trade-offs of spectral efficiency, power and data rate. These fundamental limits have been shown mathematically by Shannon and Nyquist and limit what you can do with radio waves. Thus you can do both AM and FM together, but you have to give up something in either bandwidth or required SNR versus a well designed AM or FM system.
Think of 200+ people on a plane running 400+ devices. Now consider that the airplane's radios are receiving signals that are < -90 dBm (or < 1 femtowatt) and that all 400+ electronic devices are contanined in a nice conducting shell that tends to concentrate the signals rather than letting them escape, and you can see why the FAA asks you to turn them off.
Even if you could certify some class of devices (say CD players) for a plane (say 737-300) through rigorous testing, now you would have to work through all commercial aircraft with every variation of electronics that is being used in the world today.
I'd rather suffer a small annoyance and get home safe to see my family.
All three countries, Spain, France and Japan, are in the process of harmonizing their regulations with the EC and North America (Canada, US and Mexico), who have 2.4-2.4835 allocated for unlicensed use. BTW: this band is not available in China, although they are talking about it.
One can usually see if a post is serious or not, however one cannot be sure when the postee is rambling about this subject, so i must now ask you this. Are you serious?
Q: What did the frenchman say to the german? A: I surrender One night a penguin picked up a prostitute and she took him home and had sex with him. After they were done. The penguin leeves. The prostitute drags him back into her house and gets a dictionary off the wall and directs him to the definition of prostitue. It says"A man or woman who has sex for money" After that the penguin directs the prostitute to the definition of penguin. It says" Likes to eat bushes and leaves" Long live Linus
Q: What did the frenchman say to the german? A: I surrender One night a penguin picked up a prostitute and she took him home and had sex with him. After they were done. The penguin leeves. The prostitute drags him back into her house and gets a dictionary off the wall and directs him to the definition of prostitue. It says"A man or woman who has sex for money" After that the penguin directs the prostitute to the definition of penguin. It says" Likes to eat bushes and leaves" Long live Linus
I believe some communications systems run around that neighborhood too.
The fun really starts when you get into electronic counter measures. One neat piece of offensive hardware is the HARM (Highspeed Anti-Radiation Missile). It's mission is to find a target (either handed off by an external system or via its own threat table), home in on that threat signal, and blow it up.
The nasty thing is that if left to its own devices, the HARM doesn't always pick good targets. There's been reports of near-misses when a HARM targeted friendly comms gear. Oops.
OK. So your new AirPort probably won't attract HARMs anytime soon. But it is interesting to see the civilian world once again encrouch on territory that used to be the sole concern of the military.
Hello,
2.4 GHz is in the ISM band (Industrial Scientific & Medical).
The European standard of radio frequency say you can use ISM band as long as respect the protocol. (802.11)
If France doesn't want, you can make a request to a European court...
Alex
adulau@be.linux.org
American sovereignty was decreed by GOD and by NO OTHER. It is not within your authority, nor that of the traitorous United States "Government" infesting Washington, to abrogate American sovereignty by subordinating it to illegal international treaties which are designed to put the United States military DIRECTLY under the control of GENERAL BOUTROS BOUTROS GALI.
B.B.G. is no longer Sec. General. That's Kofi Annan. Idiot. Try cutting-and-pasting from an up to date page the next time you're browsing the KKK's web site.
No, it's 2.2-something GHz.
Here... This should put you english speakers at ease: the article translated and cleaned up for American English:
----
The Apple iBook encroaches on frequencies of the French Army
PARIS (AFP) - 24 Sep 99 - The new portable computer by Apple, the iBook, poses risks problems with the Frency Army: It will indeed use the 2.4Ghz frequency for reception of wireless Internet access, reserved in France for the use of the army, except with authorization, as reported by CNRS "Internet Actu" on Friday.
Apart from 300 large French cities, where the authorization will be secured within one month, any user of the device in the 2.4Ghz frequency must request an authorization from ART (Authority of Regulation of Telecommunications). ART forwards the request to the national military office, as confirmed by ART with rear-admiral Jaques Bizard, head of the military office.
Up until now, ART and the army had granted only a few hundred authorizations to users of these frequencies. "Last year, we received 500 requests for authorization, including 195 sent to the army," explained ART. Genenrally, they are companies which operate radioelectric networks making it possible for computers to communicate wirelessly.
"In general, there is no reason to say no," added the rear-admiral Bizard, "but they are localized networks. On the other hand, the iBook is light and portable," explained the soldier.
The case of a portable computer is obviously not envisioned by the law, since the requests for authorization must "be accompanied by a plan of the establishment considered, making it possible to precisely locate the site of the estabilishment within the area concerned," explains the authorization form used by ART.
A device using the 2.4Ghz frequency can scramble a device used by the army, or vice versa. "Contrary to other countries in Europe which do not have this constraint, in France this frequency band is military. Apple probably did not think of here, but we will not allow all our devices to break because the iBook arrived," said admiral Brizzard.
"The problem was not considered long enough," he added. For the moment, the admiral is only seeing about 10 requests per week, but it is likely to grow if the iBook is a success. On the other side, the person in charge of marketing for Apple France, Hughes Asseman, remains calm, by reminding us that the range of the iBook does not exceed 50 meteres and should not pose a problem for authorization.
"To receive the Internet wirelessly, the iBook communicates with a terminal, the AirPort, connected to a telephone or by cable, with a radius of 50 meteres. Unless it is on a military HQ (base -ed), that cannot pose a problem," commented Hughes Asseman. "We have no concerns about marketing."
"We will have to examine the design features of the device, such as checking that the range does not exceed 50 meters," concluded the military national office of the frequencies.
The requests for authorization will, in any case, have to be sent individually by each holder of an iBook using the AirPort terminal, which will be officially launched by mid-October.
To violate this law involves the risk of imprisonment for up to 6 months and a fine of 200.000 francs, noted ART.
A real fatal error.
Now where did I leave my WinNuke program?
Real heavy duty ping of death.
Bill Silverstein
..and most of the other IEEE802.11 systems (such as Lucent Wavelan/IEEE) have omnidirectional ranges greatly exceeding 60m, causing a bigger
problem than the iBooks.
Macnn.com is reporting that there is a $30,000 fine for using AirPort in France. Will this apply to all wireless networks like Dell's new AeroNet?
Will the French drive around in little vans with DF'ing for laptops?
So you can't buy 2.4 GHz cordless phones in France either? I'm going out to buy one today. As for raditation against the 'nads...the antennia are in the lid of the laptop.
As for the poster that suggested the UN run the whole broadcast band. Thats something that is way outside of the UN charter.
Microwaves do operate in the 2.4Ghz range - stick a Breezecom Wireless unit beside a microwave and you'll have a fun time with an intermittent network connection. Some TV stations also broadcast their feeds in the 2.4GHz range, though its supposedly a free for public use frequency range. Look for the next set of wireless phones to go into the 2.4GHz range as well (up from 900MHz). Its getting cluttered and some of the new 10Mb+ wireless networking equipment is jumping up into the 5GHz range somewhere.
I wonder if it's time for the FCC to relinquish control of the broadcast spectrum to the UN or some other similar international agency? Or maybe, an ISO standard for frequency allocations.
Sounds like a job for the International Telecommunication Union. There's some info about wireless network access here, though I'm not familiar with the details of any of this.
It sounds like the Brazilian airlines are using peoples need for electronics to drum up more of the cost effective first class sales. In general electronic equipment is banned during take off and landings. Electronic devices wouldn't be a problem, not even if everybody carried a cornocopia of them, but segments of the airplane itself act as wave guides. Most airplanes were designed 20 or 30 years ago when a 4 transistor radio was the latest high tech portable device. Some of the channels conduct energy to places you really don't want a lot of interference during takeoff and landing.
It's just good old RF gluttony. The French military has those frequencies, and there's no incentive to give them back. Like anything governmental in nature, they've decided to air on the side of caution simply because they can. I presume if Apple was willing to pay a hefty chunk of change they could buy that frequency, much like the FCC is auctioning off your airwaves right now. Wouldn't that be interesting: Apple with an monopoly on all 802.11 networking devices in the entire country.
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
But seriously folks, this is why the FCC was insane to sell (rather than lease) various frequencies (I liken it to selling National Parks, they aren't replaceable or interchangeable). You never know when a new, more important use for a particular frequency band will come along.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I think you'll find that the gaps in the VHF TV band (between 4 and 5 and between 6 and 7) are due to the pre-existance of other services on those frequencies.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Hey I remember you from when I brought up the idea of a UN-sponsored internet regulatory body! :-)
--
-- Chris Dunham -- chameleo@xcelco.on.ca -- Chameleon --
At the risk of purpetuating this previously AC-only thread, I'd just like to point out that the "joke country" of the world and the "joke country" of the US may differ somewhat...
--
-- Chris Dunham -- chameleo@xcelco.on.ca -- Chameleon --
Actually, there is anedotal evidence of this on some types of aircraft. The regulations have been adopted by the airlines only in the last couple years - not 50 years ago as you suggest. You are correct that shielding against this type of interference would be simple, but I have heard a better argument for their ban: they distract passengers who might miss something importaint that the flight crew says, like, "We're going to crash!" And the cell phone ban was pushed by the FCC not because they mess with aircraft avionics (although I wouldn't want some cheap piece of consumer electonics that was designed to broadcast on any plane I was in), but because they really f*ck up the cell network on the ground (b/c they're recieved by so many cells at once).
-"Zow"
Pardon my ignorance on the matter, but I was always taught that EM radiation has *amplitude* AND *frequency* modulations -- presumably one can exponentially increase the amount of available 'frequencies' if one has a receiver that measures frequencies *and* amplitude modulation?
Three Step Plan:
1. Take over the world.
2. Get a lot of cookies.
3. Eat the cookies.
Isn't that the frequency used by microwave ovens?
--
Oh, no! You have walked into the slavering fangs of a lurking grue!
It should be noted that Apple (and others such as AT+T/Lucent) had to go through a very long FCC petition process to get a slice of spectrum allocated for wireless networking in the US. It should be no suprise that the bureaucracy just as cumbersome elsewhere.
E XT=938276998.1936523279&hitnum=28
One reference I found:
http://x36.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=212899830&CONT
(Note that I'm not sure if this is the same spectrum as IEEE 802.11/Airport)
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
The frequency used with Airport is an European standard which was signed by al EG member states inluding France.
We had the same problem here in The Netherlands three years ago.
The problems is that a goverment can't forbid use of those frequencies because it is a European standard.
And they signed them!!!
What in the world does the French language have to do with any of this? Blaming the decision of the French miitary on French language or culture is absolutely moronic.
Let us pause and consider...
The French army travels all over the world. All these 'peacekeeping' missions of the UN and whatnot else means there will be problems with ibooks in these places.
Either that, or Apple has invented a new form of suppressive fire for La Leigionne Etranger.
********* sig: If you don't like the law, get filthy stinking rich, and buy a better one.
2.4ghz is an unlicensed band being used by everything from wireless video(x10 stuff) to to those new 2.4ghz phones. Bluetooth(the new laptop tech to replace irda) also uses 2.4ghz. As someone else pointed out, so do microwave ovens, one of the big reasons it is unlicensed. You will start to see a lot more products using 2.4ghz, 1) because of the the number of open frequencies and 2) because of the range. The french werent very smart when they chose that frequency range because a leaky microwave causes hell to these devices.
I don't see why Apple doesn't just get AirPort's radio manufacture to sell them some radios that work on another frequency. GSM cell phones by default work at 900 Mhz (but they're also availble in 1800 Mhz), but as many Americans know, 900 Mhz has been allocated for wireless phones (the non-cellular kind). So digital cell phones use 1900 Mhz in the US.
:) (Oh yeah, and you wouldn't be able to use your phone during the day, but that might not be a bad thing.)). But I can't imagine that 2.4 Ghz is the only frequency you can use for wireless data in the home.
Sure certain frequencies are better for something
than others (You don't build cell phones to work
on visible light. I mean you don't want to blind a 10 mile radius from the cell tower/strobe light now do you?
ok, well, lemme see... The FCC was designed to allocate the airwaves, nothing more, if they give that right to an international organization, then they are done. They do all that censorship crap too, however, they can only do that by leveraging the fact that they can take away your broadcast rights (MicrosoFCC, anyone?)
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
Actually, current airliners are safety nightmares. And what passes for safety "precautions" are ludicrous. According to the link below, flaoting seat cushions have been used *once* and have not been proven to save lives.
The link celow has some good information, but is not academically rigorous (to say the least) in its presentation. (Honestly, this is why I'm posting this as AC...)
Also, it should not be visited by conspiracy buffs, because at times, the owners of this site drop into "they're out to get us all" mode.
Still there's some very interesting stuff here: www.aircrash.org
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
Didn't somone save the world with an Apple laptop in "Independence Day"? Maybe you're onto something here...
Nah, I don't mind. That's my favorite time for watching out the window.
To repent, I'll add my joke that suggests that Apple will have to do some big-time lobbying in France to get their products approved. You know those commercials with Jeff Goldblum rambling on about getting on the internet and how life is so cool afterwards? Now imagine Jerry Lewis doing that same thing.
I also want to know if they will have to change the name to the moiLivre to get it approved by the Francophone society...
Any guesses if French Mac lovers will be able to do something about this as the iBook ships en masse?
You have to remember that the AirPort card is an optional card, not part of the motherboard itself. If all else fails, Apple simply won't ship the iBooks or G4 desktops with AirPort cards.
And rumor has it that Apple is working on an AirPort base station with more oomph. I've heard 150m (~~450 feet) plus.
----
Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
Yes, you can have multiple base stations. What's also ginchy is that any Mac with an airport card in it can act as a base station. Also cool, you can create a "spread" of AirPort receivers, placing them about 275 feet apart. As you move around the spread, the AirPort card will automatically switch between base stations. (Kinda' like cell phones.)
I think you're wrong, though, with the numbers... I want to say one AirPort base station can support ten or fifteen devices
----
Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
The FCC was designed to allocate the airwaves, nothing more, if they give that right to an international organization, then they are done. They do all that censorship crap too, however, they can only do that by leveraging the fact that they can take away your broadcast rights (MicrosoFCC, anyone?)
... But would that always be a good thing? Bribery/blackmail/beauracracy/corruption could just as easily infest such an international organization, and then where would we be? Broadcasting all over the place, disrupting walkie-talkies, military communication, pacemakers, etc etc....
But I wonder, though I figure I also know the answer, does the FCC get bribed about allocating airwaves? Couldn't they? (of course they could)
But I guess the thing to consider is that, if they relinquised their rights to allocate/control over the airwaves (or rather, over US airwaves) to another organization, that organization would be under pressure as well. Esp if control of airwaves was allocated to an nation-neutral (re: international) organization, that organization would be open to even more pressure, as corporations in each nation would want control over certain frequencies, as in a case like this one, which pits Apple against the military of France... in which case, of course, France's military wins. One would (at least, I would) assume that in all or nearly all cases of corporation vs. gov't, the gov't would win simply because they're the ones-in-charge.
Do we want this? What are your thoughts?
Insert mind here.
Many fellow geeks are probably as annoyed as I am when the airlines tell you to turn your laptop, cdplay, etc off during takeoff and landing...
When you consider how airplanes use radio waves to determine position, you may not mind shutting off your laptop.
The instrument landing system consists of two antennas in the middle of the runway to center the airplane over the runway(Localizer) and two antennas at the end of the runway to put the airplane in the right angle of descent (glideslope). These antennas put out analog signals at fixed signal strength and frequencies. The antennas on the airplane are generally located on the centerline of the airplane close to the landing gear (At least as far as I can remember) The Avionic systems onboard the airplane detect their location relative to the ground antennas by comparing signal strength. If the signal from the left side of the runway is much weaker than the signal from the antenna on the right side of the runway, the pilot knows he must move the airplane slightly to the right.
Now consider the Geek flying coach class with his plexyglass cased laptop. If the one of the antennas picks up a noisey Cyrix processor from his laptop, it might add noise in the same frequency range of one of the localizer antennas. The pilot thought he was centered on the runway, but the Instrument Landing Systems seem to indicate that he should make a slight turn to the left
Opps!! He landed on concourse instead of the runway!! CALL CNN.
But perhaps the simplest answer is to have the machines be programmable to use different frequencies which can be assigned and changed via software. ....
Can you see the newly created class of hated hardware? Win Transmitters
Warnings:
/. is like a steer's horns, a point here, a point there and a lot of bull in between.
who is likely to forget how to inflate a fucking life jacket? When they are flying over land?
Life jackets:
Yes, it has happened that airplanes went down in water, but its a freak accident nowadays. The chances of not breaking a plane against the surface when landing (if a wing tip goes down first, the plane will flip and completely break) are very small.
Seatbelts:
I know that seatbelts in airplanes are for turbulance, not crashing. Any flight over the bay of bengal will convince of that.
But all safety aside, wouldn't it be nicer if they rolled back in your seat??
Windows:
Yes, it doesn't matter, but it illustrates my point.
Its not that I am against doing anything for safety, I'm just saying that the current regulations are more or less the same ones created in the 1940s, and while some are good, all are very outdated.
I don't agree about the photo id thing, we used to need photo IDs to take the subway here (they have non-personal cards now). Big deal.
-
And if you're flying first class, your transmitter is even closer to the cockpit. So, shouldn't they allow second class passenger to use electronics, and forbid it in first class :-)
That will never happen. Selling radio frequencies (read: property held in the public domain) to the highest bidder (read: not you.) is a big moneymaker for the FCC.
I'm strongly suspicious, just as I am suspicious that using your laptop on the plane during takeoff will really cause it to crash. It can't be that easy.
Right on, I hate the french as much as the next American guy ;)
--
Don't lead me into temptation... I can find it myself.
Perhaps, judging by the recent rumours of Apple G4s having a rather interesting odour, all that needs to be done is to get a bunch, place them in line along the border, power 'em up, and hope for good wind! ;^)
main(O){10<putchar(4^--O?77-(15&5128 >>4*O):10)&&main(2+O);}
Perhaps Transmeta will come to the rescue with instantly reconfigurable chips that optimize to the legal frequency of the country in question.
Heck, perhaps Transmeta will just replace the UN and we can all sleep safer at night.
TML
Folks,
..) Microwave ovens.
..) 3kW domestic appliance does not
One of the reasons for the general use of the
2.4Ghz band is that it is the resonant frequency
of the water molecule. It is thus generally used
by (unlicenced
For anyone to claim that a 100mW spread spectrum
transmitter interferes with communication where
a (shielded
is blowing smoke.
Cheers, Andy!
Andy Rabagliati
Its says that the Airport supports up to four connections. I wonder if they you can have more than one to expand your network. That would be kinda cool having a whole buch of little flying saucers around the house with a serious wireless network.
I see your mouth moving, but what the hell are you saying?!?
With all these conflicts we're going to have to move to increasingly futuristic technologies like laserbeams, flashing lights, dials, and laptops that communicate by shooting a beam of light that makes an oscillating "EeEeEeEeEeEeEeEe" sound.
Eventually, no matter how corny we think they are now, we're going to catch up to the tech shown in the movies of the '60s and '70s. Just you wait and see.
I can't wait 'til I issue the commands:
Computer! Initiate self destruct sequence 123456!
Maybe I shouldn't post right after watching "The Time Machine". Sorry.
President Clinton's laptop has probably been factored into the testing and evaluation done on the secured planes that he ever gets to ride on.
When the certification testing was done on the 727s, 737s, and 747s, the only reasonable way to keep the testing from running into the billions of dollars was to limit the combinations of conditions that had to be tested against. And back then, there wasn't the expectation that every suit who walks onto the plane would be carrying a transmitter and a computer more powerful than the workstations used to design the plane. Anything that emits a significant amount of RF just had to be banned from the vulnerable zones around and in the aircraft. This is FAR more likely to include Cellphones than a well-designed laptop, of course. Cellphones by design radiate significant RF emissions.
You are assuming that all the antennas are concentrated up in the cockpit area of the plane.
Clue: there are antennas and sensitive circuits up and down the chassis of the plane.
The International Telecommunication Union sets the standards for many types of communication equipment including international frequency allocation. The standards are discussed and agreed to by all members of the ITU. These include equipment manufacturers, PTTs and regulatory bodies throughout the world.
For instance your modem will probably be using the V.90 standard which was a compromise between USRobotics and Rockwell proprietary standards.
If I am right the FCC will attend ITU meetings on frequency allocation to try and convince the committees that their standards should be recommended as international standards to the rest of the world.
However the ITU cannot enforce standards set throughout the world. It is up the members or the organization, like the FCC, to make certain that everyone follows what they agreed to at the ITU. If a member does not like a standard, or if it conflicts with some national standard they can easily ignore the international standard!
That is the reason why international standards of this type either all bow to the lowest common denominator or contain exceptions or numerous different versions which are all allowed under the standard to keep everyone happy.
Humm so now everyone knows the freqs used by the French military....interesting
The problem isn't really with the french military. In the 802.11 standard there are three specs for Europe. The European Telecomunications Standards Institute (ETSI) standard is for all of Europe except France and Spain, which each use a different standard. France's allocation specs aren't compatible with 802.11 B, the standard for the 11 megabit range the Airport uses, which became a standard last week. Also, there is the fact that, though in the US the 2.4 Gigahertz range spans 2.400 to 2.483, in France it is from 2.400 to 2.475. If there is any conflict with the military, it would be in the overlapping range.
The 5 Ghz standard exists. It is 802.11 A
So the next time Germany decides to invade, all they need is a big pile of iBooks to totally block all communications, is that the idea?
Only when the companies can be bothered to pay for them. The most recent round of auctions had something like a 90% default rate. No one paid. They have to re-auction the frequencies. There are also apparently no penalties for defaulting on a bid. Anyone want to bid every frequency back into the stratosphere?
I don't know much about wireless communications. I'm just wondering, with an advertised range of 50 meters (according to the article), how likely would these things be to cause real problems for the French military? I would presume the military devices have ranges measured in kilometers. What kind of interference would you get, a mixing of sources, or would it be more like crossing a boundary from one source to the next when you entered the range where an airport's transmission was stronger? How likely would it be that a digital system could pick out only the signal it was interested in from two sources?
Is it possible they are also worried about people using airports to intercept their communications? Sounds silly given that they'd use encryption for anything important, but who says the military doesn't worry about silly things?
If I tried to bring an iBook into France, would they arrest me, or does this only affect actual sales in France?
Also the 100 Mbit/s wireless standard (don't know if this is also 802.11) will be operating at 5 Ghz, so maybe the french will be able to use that.
Click.
Perhaps Slashdot could start posting URLs like these with another link to Babelfish to give them credit?
--
The problem is that any device that uses digital logic, such as your CD player, may radiate at frequencies that interfere with communication and navigation systems. Your device may be a weak RF emitter but it is much closer to the aircraft's antenna than the transmitters the flight crew are monitoring.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Just a note... Anything like Apple's Airport being able to damage military hardware because it runs on a certain frequency would show a severe problem with the french military altogether. If they could experience problems from these devices, then obviously its not fit for combat. Of course they're just complaining because its already reserved though...
Meaning that IBM, Intel, HP, Dell, and whatnot, with the more expensive and more powerful and more capable IEEE 802.11 implementations will have big headaches selling to the French, and perhaps other governments/countries.
Curious:Did no one consider this when IEEE 802.11 was drafted and implemented?
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
May be able to escape fairly easily, as it is *only* 50m range, where the other implementations are both more powerful and expensive, with up to 200ft or 300ft(I guess 100m then) ranges.
Any guesses if French Mac lovers will be able to do something about this as the iBook ships en masse?
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
The upshot is that it looks like most people won't/can't encrypt their data so that we can walk around with notebooks sniffing everyone else's connections. There are several companies building Internet-connected base-stations in airports charging connect-time to surf the web (I just got back from Atlanta which had one). Instead of paying them, you can have fund sniffing what everyone else is doing.
It _isn't_ just a software issue.
I've been working for a while on some wireless projects, and making a box handle more than one frequency properly can be very difficult and expensive. Chip sets are sold optimized for a specific frequency, and each band range can have such totally different characteristics that it becomes and apples-and-oranges situation. Reflections, what types of material the signal can pass through, possible bandwidth, etc... many things change, and can cause a total rethinking of how it works. The only way for Apple to handle France is a fairly thorough redesign, and a unit capable of many bandwidths would be more expensive than I want to think about.
French police is composed of the Police Nationale (ordinary police, civilian, mainly in cities and urban areas) and the Gendarmerie (military police, mainly in the country or in little towns).
You can bet that the real army wouldn't care about little flashy notebooks if they had to set up a strong communication system in a hostile country; but here we're not talking about soldiers and fighters, we're talking about policemen. Therefore the constraints are less drastic, and the systems may be less noise-tolerant. Furthermore, when the communication devices in use were created, nobody thought that UHF communication might ever be integrated into a mass-market product.
They (the gendarmerie) have thousands of offices all over the country, most of time in isolated areas (countryside, very small towns, mountains - they are the guys who will save your life if you ever get lost in a hole in the Alps). They want to have a working communication system and they don't want to dump all their communication devices jus because of a few notebooks.
I don't think there will be a real problem, though : 50-meters range is not significant in regard to the distances covered by their networks. But if there is a clash, and the choice is between iBooks and the Gendarmes, by money is on the latter.
Thomas
I can tell you this: we chose that frequency specifically to piss off the French.
I wonder if it's time for the FCC to relinquish control of the broadcast spectrum to the UN or some other similar international agency?
American sovereignty was decreed by GOD and by NO OTHER. It is not within your authority, nor that of the traitorous United States "Government" infesting Washington, to abrogate American sovereignty by subordinating it to illegal international treaties which are designed to put the United States military DIRECTLY under the control of GENERAL BOUTROS BOUTROS GALI.
The FCC is an AMERICAN agency, and AMERICANS own the American airwaves! FOREVER. Amen.
May God grant Victory to our Cause.
I can't believe that Apple didn't know this, that can't be true. I used to be in touch with their spectrum-management person, though he might have left there by now. Certainly they are cognizant of the basics of radio regulation.
Besides AirPort, you can't operate CB, Family Radio service (the little 1/2 watt walkie-talkies that have recently become popular) and Transient Radio Service (the color dot system walkie-talkies) in other countries, in general. Some countries don't want you to operate your Inmarsat or other satellite telephone, though this is more rare. In some countries you might be able to license them, but you don't just cross a border and get on the radio without checking first, lest you get a rude visit from the military including equipment confiscation or even inprisonment as a spy in some places - no kidding. Hams have worked out an international license, but they must comply with each country's frequency and power limitations while they are there.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
from ARRL, the amateur radio organizaion:
-=Maggie Leber=-
Found some more info on IEEE 802.11 and, specifically, Apple's Airport.
----
Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
The interesting bit is that this doesn't affect just Apple or even just the iBook--the new desktop G4s can also take the AirPort card. (Makes for an easy home LAN.) AirPort is based on IEE 802.11, no Apple-NIH syndrome here. I think Lucent had a hand in developing the product, and I know that several PC implementations are on the way, including at least one product which is contained on a PC Card
Here's the skinny from one of Apple's AirPort FAQs:
This paper on IEEE 802.11 I turned up might also be of interest. It contains the "Idiot's Guide to IEEE 802.11 Networking"
So... now everyone using IEEE 802.11 is screwed in France...But what about Quebec? (j/k)
----
Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
If you are annoyed by this, have you ever wondered why they have to have a
light attendant showing you how to use the life-jacket and put on the oxygen
mask on EVERY flight? Even though there are probably only one or two people who
have never flown before and they could take them aside before boarding?
Ever hear of a modern incident where the passengers actually got any use of the
life jackets? Ever wonder why they do that drill even on flights that don't go
over any water?
Ever wonder why airplane seat-belts look like they are from the
40s, when ones that rolled up like in a car would be less annoying and safer
(three point protection)?
Ever wondered why the windows on every make of airplane are exactly the same
size? What good getting in "crash position" will do you?
I could on...
That electronics should actually be a threat to aircraft is a myth. Any
such problems could easily be fixed anyways. Welcome to the world of
regulation, my friend! These rules go back to the dawn of commercial flight in
40s and 50s, when seat-belts looked like that, when planes actually crash
landed on the water, and when anything that created radio transference was
strange and scary.
Apparently, nobody wants to renegotiate these rules because it is such hell
trying to agree, and well, the passengers aren't complaining.
-
Wow nice, now if someone wants to invade France all they need to do is bring in a dozen or so G4s to knock out their airforce. Of course now Steve Jobs can show that not only is the G4 more powerful then the Pentium 3, but it's also a great weapon for world domination ;)
Wireless networking is great, but as Apple has found different countries allocate the frequencies differently. What may be a useable frequency in one country is likely not to be in another.
I wonder if it's time for the FCC to relinquish control of the broadcast spectrum to the UN or some other similar international agency? Or maybe, an ISO standard for frequency allocations.
But perhaps the simplest answer is to have the machines be programmable to use different frequencies which can be assigned and changed via software. The hardware for this would be more expensive however, because it would need to accomdate a much greater range of possible frequencies, and it would bring about a whole host of other issues. The least of which being users changing their frequencies to illegal ones in their country, and causing interference with the communications assigned to that frequency.
The iBook of APPLE encroaches on frequencies of the French Army
PARIS (AFP) - Ven 24 Sep 99 - Paris 16h07 time - the new portable computer of APPLE, the iBook, risk to pose delicate problems with the French Army: it will indeed use for the reception of the Internet without wire a frequency of 2,4 Ghz, reserved in France with the army except authorization, reveals the bulletin of CNRS " Internet Actu " of Friday.
Apart from 300 large French cities, where the authorization is tacit within one month, any user of apparatus in the tape of the 2,4 Ghz must individually request an authorization from ART (Authority of Regulation of Telecommunications). ART transmits it to the military national Office frequencies, confirmed ART and the rear-admiral Jacques Bizard, head of the military Office.
Up to now, ART and the army delivered a few hundreds of authorizations to users of these frequencies. " the last year, we received 500 requests for authorization, including 195 transmitted to the army ", explained ART.
Generally, they are companies which obtain a radioelectric network making it possible computers to communicate without wire.
" In general, there is no reason to say not ", added the rear-admiral Bizard. " But they are localised networks. On the other hand the iBook is an apparatus light and removable ", explained the soldier.
The case of a portable apparatus is obviously not envisaged by the texts, since the requests for authorization must " be accompanied by a plan of the establishment considered, making it possible to precisely locate the site of establishment within the commune concerned ", explains the form of authorization of ART.
An apparatus using the frequency of 2,4 Ghz can scramble an apparatus of the army or vice versa. " Contrary to other countries of Europe which do not have this constraint, in France this frequency band is a soldier. APPLE probably did not think there. But we will not put all our apparatuses at breakage because the iBook arrives ", launched the admiral Bizard.
" the problem was not taken enough in time ", it added. For the moment, the admiral should treat only 10 requests per week but it is likely to be found submerged if the iBook is a success.
On his side, the person in charge marketing produced of APPLE France, Hughes Asseman, remains serene, by recalling that the range of the iBook does not exceed 50 meters and should not pose problem of authorization.
" to receive the Internet without wire, the iBook communicates by radio waves with a terminal, Airport, connected on the telephone wire or a cable, in a radius of 50 meters. Unless being in a joint part with a military HQ, that cannot pose problem ", commented on Hughes Asseman. " We have zero concern on marketing ".
" We will have to examine the design features of the apparatus, for example to check that the range does not exceed 50 meters ", concluded from his side the head of the military national office of the frequencies.
The requests for authorization will have in any case to be sent individually by each holder of iBook using the Airport terminal, delivered in option and which must be launched about mid-October.
To derogate from this legal obligation involves the risk of imprisonment a 6 months and of 200.000 francs fine, noted ART.
Has a serious problem then.
Apple is just utilizing the IEEE 802.11 wireless lan technology that Lucent, 3com, and others are designing and selling.
A new.com article tells of Dell also planning on utilizing similar technology.
If France(and other countries) allocate their frequencies in this range for military or non public use, than *no* IEEE 802.11 specified devices can be used/sold/imported. I wonder how this will be resolved, else France will either need to develop their own technolog and solutions or they will miss out entirely!
-AS
-AS
*Pikachu*
Many fellow geeks are probably as annoyed as I am when the airlines tell you to turn your laptop, cdplay, etc off during takeoff and landing.
While I understand why we might to turn off some of these devices for fear of radio-interference (which is what the french are worried about here), I don't believe that a cd-player puts out any amount of strong EM-waves...
And also related.. Certain Brazillian airlines don't let you use any electronics -at all-
I really want to know what the difference between their devices and my devices is! (And don't tell me that the first-class cabin is "more" EM shielded than coach... unless that fabric curtain is steel-thread, the waves go both ways..)
Last thing: Many posts so far are along the lines of: Don't understand how the iBook could harm the french military's whatsoever, or block their whatsowhoosits.. Well, if the french are broadcasting in the 2.4 Ghz range with military amplitude (normally with lots of power!!), then the iBook's airport circuitry might get fried... Fun fun!! (WEll, those would have to be some STRONG waves, but its possible)
Maybe next time I'll get a first-class upgrade on that brazillian airline... I wonder if the magic that happens from flying first class wears off after you step off of the plane?
Europe has a unified standard "ETS 300 328" making 2.4 to 2.4835 GHz available. Unfortunately in France the Gendarmerie use the bottom of the band, leaving only 2.4465 Ghz upwards available. I think it's explained here.