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Amazon Sues B&N over Software Patent
TuneUp writes "Amazon is suing Barnes and Noble over it's 1-Click "technology" which allows you to enter your credit info only once, then shop to your hearts content. Time to see if these ridiculous patents will hold up. " We reported on
the patent a few weeks ago. By far my favorite bit is how this feature took "Thousands of Hours" to implement. I'm having a really hard time with this patent, since to a computer saving your VISA number and shipping address is no different then saving, say, your Slashdot Nickname and preferred threshold. Well, except one probably ought to be a bit more secure...
..We run a similar technology on our very large and extensive e-commerce solution which might be a viable competitor to Amazon and B&N....uh or something....so is it really one click technology that is copyrighted/patented/trademarked (whatever) is it the cookies. Because that is basically all it is doing anyways right? I think I will patent the one click get your email idea and make millions sueing someone........
Funny and I thought Perl == Paid employment recently located
Seriously, though, I have the feeling the patent will hold up, for no better reason than it's there and so somebody passed it, proving it's validity.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
The good:
Two companies which nearly define "deep pockets" are going to fight it out here. Instead of the little guy being picked on by the big guy, two evenly sized competitors will be going at it- which means that maybe something other than money will determine the outcome of the case.
The bad:
It will still be IP lawyers determining the outcome. What do you think the odds are of B&N's guys saying "all software patents are crap!"? That tack might lead to a useful outcome, but no... they'll be arguing that "this particular patent is crap... of course, all of ours are brilliant and original, so don't touch those." They'd never jeopardize their incomes by pushing for a ruling that would have expansive and much needed impact.
My conclusion:
While this case might be interesting, it won't change anything, because of the vested interests of the lawyers who will end up controlling the case. Patents won't really fall in the courts until a little guy is attacked by a big guy, and defended by a lawyer who does pro bono work and is thus willing to attack the system from within. Until that time, corporate IP lawyers will continue fighting small battles while making very sure they don't win the war.
IAAL,BIANLY
Barnes And Nobles is no saint in the frivolous lawsuit department, either. A couple years ago, they sued Amazon.com for not charging sales tax.
Hopefully as little will come of this patent case as came of that.
What I find most sad about this whole thing is that to me, as a potential customer, the "1-Click ordering" is one of the least interesting features of their site. It is like a brick-and-morter store acting as if their cash register were the most crucial part of their business.
The cake is a pie
I was on GEine years ago, and I could order stuff with one keyboard click (once I had found something worth ordering, which was rare). Let loose the lawyers of war!
In general I stand in favor of patents, though some are completely abused. I don't think that a company should be allowed to patent something, not enforce violations for years, and then start making a big stink after the technology is well entrenched (LZW, MP3, etc... RSA, so far as I know, has been protected by RSA, which made companies create the DH alternative).
But this, I think, is absurd. They're basically saying they've patented the idea of knowing their customers and of adding conviences to the shopping experience. So far as I remember, the feature was in place more than a year ago. I didn't look, but i also don't remember seeing anything like "patent-pending technology" or anything.
Besides that, if it's been out for over a year, I thought they had to do something to start the filing process to protect themselves. They didn't, they just released the technology and later patented it. I think every website in the world should step forward and say "hey, we track our customers, too. We store information about them that they choose to give us."
Who cares if that info is a credit card number or a username/login? The underlying technique of storing relevant info in a cookie on the client machine and looking up the appropriate data on in a database somewhere is not new, and though it was probably a breakthrough at the time, it was a logical extension of where the internet was going.
B&N better not even think of settling. I'll switch completely to them if they duke it out with Amazon.
I recommend that SlashDot change all of its book links from Amazon.com to BN.com in protest of this ridiculous patent suit. SlashDot participates in Amazon's affiliate program. By pointing at Amazon, SlashDot is a party to this outrage.
But the trouble is, a good idea has a way to spread, and it ends up being futile to try to cling on to it. Not only that, it deprives consumers of quality service. In the end, companies doing this try to cling to an artificially maintained consummer base, but it ends up eroding up and the idea spreads around.
I think Amazon realises that. There's plenty of other companies doing this also, and certainly not just online bookstores. I know Chapters.ca does it (they store your credit card info, so you only have to enter it once; buying a book takes one click, and you're processing to checkout.)
I think what Amazon is doing is trying to hurt the competition by dragging them into a lawsuit. I don't think they care if they win or not. They're projecting the image that they invented a novel system, and that BnN is copying them for their success.
So, let's not expect a dramatic turn of events; either they settle this out of court, as a way to calm the flames, or Amazon wins. But no one, not the CEO's, not the lawyers, not the judges, will once realise the concept of software patent is crap. They'll just use it as law fodder, and be happy with it.
"There is no surer way to ruin a good discussion than to contaminate it with the facts."
I've had an idea for a technology that I think will revolutionize computing. I call the notion, "Stored Program Computing". Basicly, instead of having seperate data areas for data & program instructions, you have one large array of memory and store both data AND computer programs there. With clever encoding, it will be easy for the CPU to tell the difference between data & instructions. I predict this will lead to an incredible increase in computer useasbility. It will facilitate another idea I've had, which I call "Time Sharing" (we'll swap programs/data in and out of memory allowing many users or processes to share the same computer).
Apparently, back in the '50s, some obscure electrician named Von Newbie (or something like that) had a similar idea, which is why I'm flying off to Norway, where it doesn't matter who comes up with the idea first, only who files the patent first.
Naturally, I'm going to have vigorously defend my patent, demanding royalties from manufacturers who have created products using my tech, software vendors who write software taking advantage of my design, and users (Remember: it takes two to violate my patent, one thieving corporation to build the device, and another to use it)
Thank you, and I'll be expecting my royalty checks soon!
Dana
Rob, patent "One Click Posting". Then patent "One click Meta-Moderating". You'd make a fortune.
Here's another one (a freebie).
Patent Pending:
First post.
A method of annoying both posters and readers by posting to Slashdot with first post in the subject line. Post must have very little content and not mention Mae Ling Mak Naked and Petrified (no gifs because of patent problems).
I view Amazon's behavior as being rather similar to a neighborhood polluter: their emissions may be under the legal limit, but they are still a nuisance; would you buy from them and support them? (Actually, from an economic point of view, bad patents and the lawsuits they engender are quite similar to pollution as well.)
Doubt it will accomplish much, but I sent the following polite letter to feedback@amazon.com - maybe you would like to send a POLITE letter too??
Dear Sir / Madam,
I am writing to complain about Amazon's use of overreaching software patents.
Patent No. 5960411 for 1-Click, is an example of a patent that has been awarded completely out of place. The concept that lies behind 1-Click is in no way new to Amazon, or unique. Using such a patent simply to harass your business competitors is in my opinion an extremely low way of doing business. Such patents serve simply to supress programmers from finding more effective solutions to problems.
Do you really expect that anyone who wishes to develop such a system must come to you for permission before commencing programming? Especially when there are so many existing versions of this system on the net?
It is a shame that a company who symbolise for many the success of the Web as a business medium feel compelled to resort to such low tactics to stay ahead in the race for market share.
I hope that the use of this patent by Amazon will result in so much negative publicity, that you will not be tempted to use such crass measures in the future. How much more positive it would have been if Amazon could instead have joined in lobbying the US Patent Office against the granting of such broad patents.
Yours sincerely
Steve Cook
A little planning goes a long way...
Some thoughtful AC, who really should be moderated up, suggested a class action lawsuit vs. the USPTO.
>I say we get a class action lawsuit put together
>against the US patent office for negligence in >what patents they allow to be registered.
IANAL and don't know how feasible this is, or realistic, but given patenets such as this, who knows? Someone moderate that up....
itachi
To: feedback@amazon.com
Subject: Stop lying about "1-Click"
Dear Madam or Sir,
I am a prior customer of Amazon, and also software developer for business Web sites. Today I had a visceral reaction when I read that Amazon is filing lawsuits because of a patent on "1-Click". You may be able to fool a lot of people, but you can't fool those of us who work in this industry. The idea that Amazon has a prior claim to technology that stores and re-uses cutomer information is one of the most brazenly dishonest things I've ever heard. You're lying, and you know it.
Cease and desist from this nonsense, or I will most certainly never buy any products from you again.
Regards,
....
Always keep a sapphire in your mind
The judge probably is sensible. That's not the problem. The problem is that most people, which probably includes 99% of judges, don't really know how any of this computer stuff works. If people did know how any of this stuff works, we wouldn't see all of the dumb software patents that we've been seeing, for things like digital music and "1-click technology".
The ignorance of the general public is what Amazon is relying on, and they're probably ok doing so.
But they've definitely ensured that I'm not going to buy anything from them. Ever.
C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow off your whole leg - Bjarne Stroustrup
They're putting dimes in the hole in my head to see the change in me.
Priceline gave a ton of technical information to Microsoft about their business. The founder of Priceline met with Expedia's chairman and Bill Gates to discuss a cooperative relationship. Then Microsoft backed out when Priceline wouldn't sell them any shares below the IPO price. Interesting note from Bloomberg is that Gates is reported (by Priceline lawyers... take it as you will) as saying that he wasn't going to let patent infringement get in their way, because so many other companies were suing Microsoft for the same thing, Priceline would have to "get in line".
In this case, though, I seriously doubt that bn.com and Amazon got together to discuss anything mutually beneficial, since they've been suing each other since day one about silly things like which one is "Earth's biggest bookstore" and the like. And I think if they came up with it independently, and implement it even remotely dissimilar on either end, they're going to win the suit.
I think it's pretty clear that they're targeting bn.com because they're a rival. There are a slew of other internet sites that use this 1-Click / Express Lane idea. It's not as cutting edge as they'd like to think.
Now we can have great things like eToaster, which is obviously *much* better than standard Toasters. Why is this? Because you can use a web browser to do an electronic transaction with your eToaster from your webbed(patent pending) to order some Toast.com.
Not only all this, but I think we could patent concepts too. How about eLogic? Heck why settle for that when we could patent the entire language with webEnglish!
Another thing that I find tiresome is companies that insist on being 'savy' by putting .com at the end of their name so they appear to be one company, but they are in reality something else. Why don't we create companies like cocacola.com or intel.com it makes sense to me!
So why not do Amazon.com one better. We can create a e-one-click-shopping and we'll create Amazon.com.com, that'll show 'em!
I guess this finishes my e-rant. Till next time!
This space for sale
If it is true that your compsany has had this since 91, and you can prove it, for gods sake contact B&N's legal department and make them aware of it. same goes for everyone else who knows about prior art.
help them make the patent invalid though the court case. so then we dont have to whine about this particular patent anymore, and we can start whining about other software patents.
palop
Install rh6 (w/ apache). ~35m
Add ssl support,recompile. ~20m
Install mod_php3 ~1m
Install pgsql ~15m + setup
Setup permissions, verify setup - ~20m
Use cookie support in php3 to store any user data, or optionally use http authentication. ~0m use, ~3hr/devel (if you don't know about FM)
Webpage setup - could take up to a week, ~40h
There you have it.. a total of up to 50 hrs. Now Amazon thinks it spent thousands of hours on that? How many meetings did they force their developers to sit in on instead of doing real work? :) And about that "single-click" shopping - see also the whole point of http cookies - to store persistent information on a remote machine! This meets two of the criterion mentioned in a recent /. article - obviousness and prior work. I bet I could prove both. :^)
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Maybe you've forgotten, but there was a time back before B&N and Amazon went wild and dominated books. Remember those little local bookstores? All of them in my area are gone. I say instead of support B&N (Which has more than its share of stupid lawsuits btw), go out and buy books from your local dealer.
..let them know why you are doing it. Customers walk away from stores all the time, unless a company knows they are doing something that annoys people they will not change that behaviour. If they find a number of people leaving for the same reason, change is inevitable.
+&x
Doesn't the federal government have some sort of exemption form class action lawsuits ? I would be surprised if they don't.
Nice idea though. There has to be some campaign for changing the appalling state of patent law. It's not just the US either, but it's probably worst there, and the US pressures other countries into going along with their take on IP issues. The problem is that these stupid laws hurt everybody. Furthermore, it's not at all obvious how badly they hurt people. Silly patents like this make everybodies lives worse in a million minor ways. Oh, so now I have to enter credit information every time I buy something from a particular company. It's not the kind of thing people get passionate about. Nobody can estimate the true cost of inappropriate patents.
However, when laws hurt a small number of powerful companies they form an effective lobby to bribe congressmen with campaign contributions in no time. Any attempt to change patent laws will recieve an effective counter attack from the few large companies that actually benefit from them.
"Democracy is coming to the USA" - Leonard Cohen
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
This isn't a patent on an obscure technological or mathmatic thing that won't make sense to a layman, like the LZW or MP3 patents. This is an extremely obvious thing that any dimwit (in other words, judges and jurors) will be able to understand.
If B&N decides to fight in court instead of settling, it seems like this case would have a better chance of getting a "this patent is a joke" ruling, than many other cases.
And that would be good. It would be nice to have a high-profile software-patent-overturned ruling on the record.
---
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Remember when Amazon.com, then a puny enterprise, was sued by B&N for being the "World's Biggest Bookstore"?
At that point, I vowed to never, ever buy anything from Barnes & Noble's web site. (I even boycotted B&N stores for about a month, but that one didn't stick -- the stores are just too useful).
I'm appalled by this type of lawsuit. Makes me think I should go buy my next book order from B&N, for they are now both acting like bullies.
(Of course I won't, because they use Windows(tm) servers, but maybe I'll find an entirely different company that's worthy of my patronage).
Any suggestions? Sadly, fatbrain.com uses Microsoft stuff, and my hatred for companies using Microsoft junkware exceeds even that of people putting forth silly lawsuits. But it's a close-run thing.
D
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This is so sad, but it was probably inevitable. Amazon is a big company now, which means it's controlled by the lawyers. Remember, kids: big companies don't innovate!
I'm good friends with the guy who implemented one-click shopping (he refers to it as ``the money vaccuum.'') But I won't let that stop me -- I'm still not shopping there any more.
Here's the letter I sent them. I encourage all of you to send letters of your own. (But don't just cut-and-paste someone else's letter, they can tell...)
---------------------------------
Subject: patent suit ==> losing customers
You have finally gone too far.
When you started spamming me, I was irritated, but didn't much care, since at least you gave me a way to unsubscribe. When you started selling your customers' private information down the river, I was irritated, but didn't much care, because I'm not overly concerned about my privacy. But now you've finally lost me as a customer.
Why? Because you asked for, and were awarded, a 17-year monopoly on the concept of "one-click shopping", because that idea is apparently such an innovation, such a breakthrough, that you never would have gone into business without the incentive of federally-mandated exclusive rights.
As if that wasn't bad enough, now you are sueing Barnes and Noble for adding a similar feature to their web site. So much for the bullshit apology one often hears of "we only have patents for defensive purposes, in case someone bigger and stronger sues us for patent infringement first."
Amazon.com is a great web site, far better than any other online store I've used. But I will not be using it again. I will either use other web sites, or make more trips to physical stores from now on.
Convenience is nice, but I don't feel good giving my money to anticompetitive parasites who succeed because of their lawyers rather than the quality of their products and services.
The real shame of it is that your services are *good*. You don't need to compete this way. It's sad, and sickening.
Software patents are far more of a threat to competition and innovation than anything Microsoft has ever done.
Goodbye.
Question: isn't this exactly the interface on some dealers' screens for securities and foreign exchange trading ?
One of the options the dealer has is to get a list of all the share parcels being bid or offered at the current instant, any of which he/she can accept with a single click. The patent's main claims are written so broadly (with essentially no reference to the internet, except later as a possible implementation), it seems to me that should blow them away.
Can anyone confirm the existence of such a system, or (better) offer B&N a printed user manual ?
The client system is a VT-series dumb terminal. The single action is the act of logging in (not one click, but still...work with me here). The additional information previously stored is the /etc/passwd file and various other sysadminly trivia.
The product? CPU cycles. Remember when you had to pay by the clock for mainframe use?
--The basis of all love is respect
Or how bout a mysterious investment from the slashdot foundation to pay for some legal fees :) heheh
SomeGuy (changed to protect the messenger)
:)
Amazon.com
FYI, I know someone who works at amazon.com customer service. 99 percent of responses, including the one you recieved, are form replies, slightly customized. Don't bother flaming the people who answer the e-mails. They doesn't care...really. Your letter won't even make them feel bad. It's a pretty low paying and mindless job and, chances are, no one who matters will see your e-mail. The simple fact that you object to the patent/lawsuit, however, will probably filter up the ranks. Specifics of your clever insult will not. Now if we could find Jeff Bezos' e-mail address...
Seriously, your best bet is a short, succinct, polite objection. Anything more and you're wasting keystrokes.