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Return of the Old-School Text App?
An Anonymous Coward asked this insightful question: "Remember Lotus 1-2-3? The breakthrough app that opened the door to PCs in the workplace? Remember the (gasp) TEXT version? What about the TEXT version of Wordperfect? I'm no big fan of X, I don't like to handcuff myself to the mouse. These text apps would be wonderfully suited for a port to Linux! Take the old 1-2-3 UI, add in all the new functionality, slap it into ncurses (or whatever floats your boat) and set it free (or release it for Linux). There must be dozens of these older 'dos' programs that are considered dead that could have new life breathed into them by Linux (and BSD, don't forget BSD). Think if we pestered IBM they could let something like the old 1-2-3 go? What do you think?" Hmmm! This idea has some possibilities, but would the software companies go for it?
Well since Corel has already shown that they're interested in Linux, I wouldn't totally find that unreasonable. I'd love to have it too--WP was the best there was back in those days. I still have the Function key overlay from DOS WP 5.1 around here somewhere...
hedge
The problem isn't as much the old school getting ignored as it is the opportunity cost of not using modern machines to their full potential. Although it may not be the most vogue thing to do, modern computers are quite capable of video production. This is an application which just doesn't seem to work in text consoles. You could just enjoy the thrill of doing it in text but that's a lot of development money for tinkering when you could put that money into an X program someone can actually use.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Folks are used to pretty interfaces now. That's all kids see in school from day one. Nice Encarta applications and games, games, games. Folks in the workplace would probably revolt if they had to go back to those text apps, too.
There is a small population out there who find GUI's either difficult too work with or wasteful in terms of computing power, but the key word is small. I just don't see a lot of effort being placed into recoding those apps in text mode for Linux when there is so much more compelling work that needs to be done in other areas.
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
Corel is still selling character based WP.
I just set up a new SCO box for a client to replace their old (non Y2K ready) server.
They've got a bunch of Wyse terminals using WordPerfect v8 for Unix, Character Terminal Edition or some such. The character edition is included with the X version, I don't believe that you can purchase it seperately.
WP character edition looks a helluva lot like good old WP 5.1, btw.
I don't believe this is included in WP for Linux, anyone know for sure?
Get it here. It works fine under dosemu.
Are you drawing a distinction between the ease of use of text apps vs GUI's with hot keys? If not, why not just spend some time making the current apps more keyboard controllable rather than trying to add modern features to all the old apps? I hate having my hand always bouncing back and forth too but It's not so much X's fault as the app GUI designer's is it?
Davo -- Free speech, free software, AND free beer.
As members of the old school would we want to revert to the old ways things were done just because we can?
I can remember as a youngster (ie pre-geek days when i was knee high to a grasshopper) when everybody talked about how goo dthe old days where. How books were better cause you could pick them up and how you only had good movies and the cars were better and things were built to last.
Lets face some reality here. As Geeks and Nerds we are supposed to be the advocators for the cutting edge of technology and supposed to be pushing the breakthroughs. Let not the software world declare that Geeks started out making things happen only to allow the world to fall to those who LET THINGS HAPPEN!!!!
Am i an advocate of throughing away all the old stuff done in the past no but I am saying that we should not through away our future because an old app worked well at the time. Besides who has started playing a game of Ultima 4 or Curse of the Azure Bonds on their computers in the last few weeks? Why don't we port all the old code over? Hey lets not even upgrade it in the process so they still only have 4 colors and a two tone sound track! Why do we upgrade processors, memory, video cards and sound cards if we are not going to take full advantage of them?
The MyTh - I am a figment of the Imagination - [Im Probably even not here]
There is something to be said, however, for providing both a text and a graphical interface to the same application. For example, it would be really nice to use a nice gui email client at home, but when I am at school, log into my machine at home, and be able to run the same application in a terminal. (Yes, I know you can get some of this functionality with IMAP...)
And email is not the only application... I would love something like this for programs such as GNUcash, and even GNUmeric. Alot of work, especially in the commercial sectors, has gone into making apps available via HTML. I personaly, would prefer text based apps, as you can find telnet with vt100 on just about anything, and don't have to worry about having the latest version of JAVA, or having a supported browser. What more, I get all the speed of my machine at home.
Not alot of people would use this, but if app developers keep the gui and the logic seperate (like good programmers), it should be an easy addition by those who would.
Long Live the Text App!
(I am writing this from lynx by the way...)
MetallicBurgundy
We still work exclusively in character based systems. When designing apps for a call centre, we have found that for speed of design, and simplicity of use, there is no substitute for char based apps running on dumb terminals.
As an added bonus, we have near zero TCO for the terminals we are using. Bummer is that it's now cheaper to put a PC on the desk than to replace the aging terminals when they finally give up.
Char based apps have their place - they won't be everything to everyone but then what is.
To get a sense of the frustration gui apps can cause, try editing in vi for a while and then try the same thing (sans mouse) in MS Word or an equivalent. ick.
I think that CMX (a text-based online video editor) may fit the category that you're describing. It's actually a sort of industry standard in video post-production. It functions as a controller for the tape decks, and performs the editing commands (in/out points, transitional features, etc.). Of course, since its text based, you need to rig up some video monitors; and the OS is (from what I can tell) completely proprietary. Nonetheless, people seem to find it's worth the trouble to learn. If you're going to use a graphically-oriented program, you may not be in much better shape as far as the learning curve is concerned. Systems like Avid may be easy enough to get a basic feel for really quickly, but there's still a good number of features that only the well-experienced user will be able to understand and apply. In my opinion, a graphical interface only hogs up precious RAM. I'd love to able to convert my old P100 into a powerful and efficient video editor. Only a text-based application could make that possible. -ad
We have become wusses these days, being enslaved to our mice. I'm fifteen, and we got our first system in about 1989, and we only had a keyboard. (Of course, it was an 8088) I remember some excellent software for the keyboard, such as Xywrite, deskmate, Word perfect, and so on. Using a keyboard won't kill a person, in fact, I like the keyboard a lot, that's why I still like to use dos (Configuring Linux soon) a lot on many of my other systems. I honestly, can't wait untill processor technolodgy reaches it's practical limits, so we can go back to such programs.
Don't call my crazy, that's what they called me back in the home!
Well, one problem with this scenario is that AFAIK both Lotus and WordPerfect were written in assembly language. Is it really worth the pain of translating these to a higher level language and possibly losing some of the speed and efficiency that made them appealing in the first place?
I am assuming that they will need to be translated because a) if you are porting to a different operating system you might as well change languages while you are at it, b) if you want any help in maintaining the source you'll have a lot better luck in C than i86 asm.
I think the amount of effort needed to understand what the asm code does and then port to Linux would be close to as great as writing it from scratch. Also don't forget that something like WordPerfect has a lot of "dead code" that wouldn't be useful anymore (likely the printer driver/font metric stuff wouldn't be useful in a modern environment).
I just got through putting a division of users (about 300) on a new, integrated work system. Besides all the proprietary software, we have WP5.1 for Unix, Lotus 123 (I could swear those boxes said ver. 1) and Z-Mail all running on top of SCO OS 5.0.4. Everything, from the servers all the way down to the laptops that go out into the field, is 100% Unix.
Across the way, we have another division that's in the process of putting about 600 people on an all-NT network with proprietary software for their core job functions and MS Office for "productivity" apps.
The contrast between the two approaches is amazing. Both sides are engaging in good-natured verbal sniping at the other, but the differences are pretty basic.
1. Our far-flung offices, some with very poor bandwidth back to headquarters, are much better served by our text-based applications. Our text-only email, for example, doesn't choke and die because some secretary decided to send a 50-page PowerPoint presentation to all employees.
2. My sysadmin counterparts on the NT side are more than a little envious of the fact that I can rlogin to just about anything and fix whatever's screwed up. Yeah, they have pretty graphical tools that supposedly enable them to do the same thing. But those tools are so slow that they tend to give up in frustration and tell the users "I'll handle it next time I'm out there." My people don't have to wait.
3. Training has turned out to be a big deal. Both sides have users who run the gamut from self-styled hackers to total keyboard incompetents. Our guys have to learn to open multiple sessions and read the bottom-of-the-screen prompts to figure out what function key should be pressed. The multiple-sessions thing threw some of them for a while, but they've managed to handle it. The NT folks, on the other hand, are having lots of problems with users opening multiple applications without realizing it or keeping track of them. Worse, they often open multiple copies of some of our proprietary apps that simply don't like being run that way. Many of these people are sufficiently unaccustomed to a mouse that they can't play a game of solitaire, yet they are now expected to use the thing to make a living. Most are handling it, but some are a total nightmare. I have far fewer problems on my side of the house.
4. Our computers in the field just seem to work. No muss. No fuss. They get their jobs done and don't complain much. The NT users, otoh, have to deal with occasional strange error messages and lock-ups that confound and irritate them.
5. The biggest difference, though, is in the attitude of my users. When they first found out they were getting all those "old, obsolete programs," they were openly angry. "Why should we go BACKWARDS in technology?" was their rallying cry. They were openly contemptuous of the decision to implement in this way. They demanded to know what idiot was forcing them to give up their pretty point-and-click interfaces. Now that they've worked with the system, though, attitudes are different. Their stuff just works. They don't have to worry about whether they're going to get some weird blue screen or the cursor is going to disappear or a virus is going tear through their address book. They are simply able to sign on in the morning, do their work, and sign off in the evening. No big deal.
Next project: Put up a Lynx server so I can add intranet access to their telnet menu. And when I do, creating fast, useful net access for my people while the NT guys waste man-years waiting for graphics-intensive screens to re-draw, my people will again be forced to conclude that software that works is preferable to software that looks pretty.
I think the original question is a good one. Text-based apps that have been abandoned by the mass-market could make a notable if not wide-spread comeback if they're presented right.
The software is still out there, and will probably run under dosemu just fine. Of course you won't get any added functionality beyond what the software originally had (well, things like hard links and nfs, but that's not really the application itself...)
Of course I've never tried it... and I don't even know how some things would work... I mean, WP made extensive use of the alt-F? key combos. How would you switch virtual terminals? I don't know, but it's a thought...
Pound! Bang! Bin! Bash! is this a shell script or a Batman comic?
Btw, does anyone know what's the status, legally, of orphaned software? Can I make copies for other workers of things like Ecco (previously by Netmanage)?
Xywrite was a truly useful word processor. It's as if Emacs were intended for word processing. Not that it wasn't painfully obscure at times. For example, the entire macro language was based on embedded mail merge commands.
We've never seen a really clean text based UI. vi, lotus 1-2-3, xywrite and emacs, for all their qualities, are based on stone age UI standards. Imagine if Stallman had done usability testing - it would have been completely different.
Graphical != Usable. Graphical widgets can present so much distracting information that users can't find the important stuff. Toolbars, dialog boxes, non monospaced fonts - a lot of gingerbread is destructive to UI quality.
Where character based UIs fall down is in visual functionality - desktop publishing or image editing. But that's not such a big problem for all apps.
Three words: Wide Area Networks.
I have a client looking at an office automation system. They are really thrilled with the program, problem is, they have 40 offices around the country, with anywhere between 5 and 100 users at each office. All of which have to be pulling from one database. The app is a Windows based, client server app. It will be a maintenance nightmare. Something like eight different products are knitted together, each going through anywhere between a revision every two years to four revisions per year. Times hundreds of workstations. Times dozens of servers.
Uh, yeah.
I'd love to see a Unix-based text-mode app. Put it on a big Unix box (whatever flavor). Use telnet to get to it from PCs, dumb terminals where appropriate. Very modest WAN links. Getting a little slow? Update the one box. Software update? Update the one box. App update require an update to the terminal emulation software? Install the new TES at the clients at your leasure, when done, update the app.
GUIs are pretty. Oh, but are they maintenance nightmares!
Some apps just work better on text mode systems. I've not seen evidence that GUI-based accounting software gives you ANY serious improvements. And, as far as just throwing text in proper order, I have never seen anything beat DOS WP5.1 in the hands of a legal secretary.
I know I am a very distinct minority here, but I don't like seeing fancy GUI word processors in schools. Most students should be working on the CONTENT of their work, making sure their words are in logical order, their ideas are expressed clearly, their thoughts are complete and conveyed well rather than trying to make it look pretty. I'm not saying there is no place for presentation, but a writing class should be teaching writing, not graphic arts. A math class should be teaching math, not graphic arts. A public speaking class should be teaching speaking, not graphic arts.
My local school district is looking at spending millions of dollars to put in all kinds of wonderful technology. They will be paying for it years after it is obsolete. Scarry. They want fancy video cameras, digital cameras, etc. I'd like to set them up with a few *nix/*BSD systems -- labs full of terminals/old PCs as word processors, available in the morning, all day long, and late into the evening. I'd like the kids to learn basic programming -- not to make them all computer programmers, but to teach the thought-process of step-by-step problem decomposition, and to help them with things like programming VCRs or other things requiring the ability to understand guiding the electronic devices that are all over our lives now. I'm working on the school board nicely, but I know I will loose this one, so I'm just trying to keep them from squandering my money too badly.
Nick.