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Linux Unreal Tournament Status Update
slothdog writes "Brandon Reinhart of Epic Games has updated his .plan with some more info about the open-sourcing of Unreal Tournament for Linux. Specifically, it will be available under the Artistic License and coordinated through SourceForge. A little snoop-work will lead you to the project's page. Yummy. "
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"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
Generally it's possible to cheat whether it's open source or not. I'm not talking about single player cheating, there's almost always cheat codes for that. Remember Diablo and Bobafett? If not, run a search on them and see.
Restating the obvious since nineteen aught five.
So while it's a step in the right direction, it's not exactly the bliss that everyone thinks it is. Still, being my favorite game right now, I'd really like to see the Mesa Renderer completed so I can play it under Linux.
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"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
I know that UT uses the Loki Installer (I know this because I bought UT the other day). I have been jumping through hoops to get it installed. I finally figured it out, after downloading multiple tarballs and RPM's. The (current) install is unfortunatly a bit hard.
:)
Nothing that the average Linux user cannot handle, as we are used to "doing it ourselves". (I am still miffed at GT for not allowing Epic to include the Linux binaries on the CD).
I just hope that the installation is refined like Quake 3 Arena's. (note to Enlightenment users, for some reason the current version of UT does NOT run under E, the demo does, but the full version does not.)
GreenMarines sourcing of these libraries should make it much easier for the community to code more Mesa support (this I know is obvious).
Remember, if you buy the game (please do!) mark on the registraion card in very obvious print (red works well) Purchased for use with Linux as there is no place to mark your OS of choice.
Let the folks at GT know we are out here.
Try to hack my 31337 firewall!
It almost sounds like Apple opening up parts of OS X so the "open source community" can hack away and improve the sales of their commercial product.
And with a little imagination, you can parallel their intentions with Sun - they want to have the advantages of open source without the disadvantages, which are: control of code, and loss of commercial value.
The Unreal engine has made lots of money in terms of licensing for Epic Games - I wasn't totaly surprised that they didn't release all the source. But do notice that the most prized and valuable code that makes the Unreal engine tick is still locked up away from everyone else.
Why? I think Brandon explains it fairly clearly in his .plan:
I'm not trying to sound bratty and trying to whine Epic into releasing everything (not that it would work anywaysnow everybody get to work and make the linux code better, so Epic can sell more engines!
Frac
RMS doesn't say we should call Linux "GNU/Linux" because of the license (GPL). The reason he says that is that, while the kernel is Linux, most of the rest of the OS is GNU tools (i.e., written by and/or donated to the Free Software Foundation).
Since Unreal presumably doesn't use GNU tools, there would be no request to add to the name.
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Clarification.
:) )
Silly.
id/Carmack has always done that.
Epic is "opening" the game mod interface, not the underlying rendering libraries.
Quake/Quake II/Quake 3 Arena have always done that. Probably in a few days, after Carmack has cleaned up his code, final Q3A game mod headers and interfaces would be posted.
(Then have fun and lock yourselves into a room.
OTOH, Tim Sweeney's ZZT is one of the earliest "open" mod "engines" (OK, so it is a 2D text-character based "engine") engineered with the plans for public/open expansion. This precedes Doom, and the Doom wad community.
P.S. Tim/Brandon/John should post these clarifications themselves here.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
3D Realms/Apogee
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
This is a really good thing for UT. Not to bring up the endless UT vs Q3 debate but I've been sensing a lot of anti-UT sentiment among the Linux/Slashdot community that I just *DONT* understand. I tried to get UT working under Linux and it has been a real *pain*, and I've not found a lot of help, just a lot of "UT sux, get Q3" from most of the gamer-linux guru's I know. I'm hoping that while this isn't exactly open source (some of the libs for 3d will be opensource, according to what I read from the .plan) it will endear UT to more of the linux community.
In my opinion these are both REALLY good games. UT for the moment is the winner in terms of variety and cooperative play (my personal favorite variant), but I imagine the Q3 mod community will be churning add-ons out real quick.
Q3, of course, has the better "deathmatch", where they have always excelled. And the rendering and graphics are definitely better than UT. Regardless, I really dig both of these games, and hope more people with not be biased one way or another. Its just a game people.
Unreal's "mod" code has (I think) always been out since day one. It's some sort of scripting language (UnrealScript?)
:(
They've one-upped id here, at least slightly, in terms of what they've released in their engine. id did NOT release their renderers and audio libraries.
Of course, UT's network code is what needs improvement the most, as I mentioned in a previous post. (If this is "vastly improved", then the original Unreal must've been horrific!) - that wasn't released.
Don't take this as saying that I don't support id at all - They've got a LONG history of doing this, while Epic is probably only doing this because they have to match id or UT will be blown out of the water by Q3.
I'm definately buying Q3, and after this development, I'm reconsidering UT.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
What with all the UT v Q3A threads which I do not read.
It would be real fun after both UT and Q3A release their API interfaces for mod in short near future.
Would like to read msgboard peer reviews analysis pro con of UT v Q3A "script" mod API interface, from coding, programming, app development, modding, and even language theory and design perspective.
"Lang" discussion of UT v Q3A is the truly more interesting "versus" conversation we can have on the 2 products.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
3D Realms/Apogee
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
Cheaters will always be around, whether a project is open or closed-source. Look at all the cheats that have been around for Quake 1 and Quake 2. Quake2 is closed source, yet it has had numerous aimbots (ZBot, Zorbot, RATBOT), transparent walls (an ill-advised revision of Metabyte's WickedGL driver), radar scanners (ZBot), illegal power-up timers and graphics hacks (VSE Timer, Nitro/Xania proxies), etc. While I don't play Unreal Tournament, it would be naive to believe that someone somewhere with time on their hands hasn't already hacked up a cheat for it, as well.
What "other people's work" is RMS trying to take credit for?
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This is a question I once tried to get posted as an "Ask Slashdot" - what does the Linux commmunity want from game developers?
For instance - it's pretty hard to release the entire commerical game as Open Source, and expect it to make money. I agree with RMS's "Free Speech" aspect, but, also realize that it's a business for making money. (I've got my own little game company, looking at doing more and more recently...) How should a game developer make the ballance between Open Source, and the business of making money based off of entertament value of the software produced?
Is there a good solution for game developers who want to start supporting Linux, who want to 'do the right thing' and start letting people get access to the source, without loosing tons of cash over it?
Davis Ray Sickmon, Jr - looking for something to read? Check out my three free novels at MidnightRyder.org
When you say "Linux", do you refer to the Linux kernel or the Linux "Operating System"?
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GNU products make up a small percentage of the software in the distribution.
A few questions:
1) "small percentage" counted how? Number of packages? Lines of code?
2) Which pieces of software in a distribution count as part of the "operating system" and which count towards "applications". For instance, I'm assuming Netscape Navigator isn't part of the operating system. How about X? How about "tar". How about fdisk?
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The person talking in a calm, reasonable voice about facts and only facts? Or the person spouting ill-defined and unwarranted (not to mention offensive: "kool-aid", indeed) abuse?
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"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
To come along 7 years after Linux has been out and slap his obnoxious prefix on someone elses work is rude.
... prefix" on is 15 years old. How can that be, Linux started in 1991? Exactly the point.
Just as I suspected, you have no clue.
Some of the work Stallman is "slapping his
You see, the FSF has been working on a free operating system for quite a while. They have nearly all the tools they need (compilers, utilities, libraries, etc) but they lacked a kernel. Oddly enough a few years ago there was a kernel that was lacking everything else. Just like Reece's Peanut Butter cups they got together. Unlike Reece's, though, the package bears the name of only one of the members.
As for the other nonsense you emit, I have no comments except that you clearly don't know the meaning of the word "viral".
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If you don't like Stallman/FSF/GNU why don't you boycott them? Or do you want to use the tools with one hand while flipping the finger with the other?
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Anything Epic releases to open source becomes free software. We won't "sell" the Linux port just as you are not allowed to "sell" a derivative.
Once I get everything together (tomorrow probably, Tim is here but I'm pretty tired) I'll upload a simple tarball release so people can start playing around. Then I'll work on learning rcs and get that set up.
I can foresee companies developing games entirely opensource, but still selling a game...the code is freely obtainable, but the content (maps, textures, models) must be purchased.
I think there is room for open source in commercial software development. I just think that its going to be a while before you see the games industry take up that particular mode of operation.
Finally, a clarification on what we will be releasing.
XDrv.so - This handles window creation, viewport creation, keyboard and mouse input, and all the X windows related stuff.
Audio.so - This is the simple audio library I wrote to mix the sound effects in Unreal Tournament for Linux.
XMesaGLDrv.so - This is the Mesa render device. It implements the engine's render calls and uses the Mesa graphics lib to draw the 3d world.
GlideDrv.so - Same as the XMesaGLDrv.so, but it uses glide.
XLaunch - This executable loads and inits the engine, then starts the main loop. You can actually do quite a lot with this.
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The bottom line is this: I like to play kick ass games. The Linux port of UT is not kick ass. I don't have the time to make it better, so instead of having it languish on my harddrive I'll give it out to anyone who wants it. You don't have to do anything with it. You could take it and write cool stuff and if you want you could contribute it to me. Its all voluntary.
Yes, it'd be great to improve the Linux port of UT. It really needs work! At the same time, I've been working my ass off to support the mod community. Check unreal.epicgames.com for a fast growing new document on writing mods for Unreal Tournament. I've been working with mod authors and mod teams to get them understanding the Unreal Tournament scripting language. This is another facet of that support.
There is nothing ever wrong with giving people more stuff to play with. Most of these guys making mods aren't trying to make money! They don't want to sell their mods. They just want to make cool addons for people to play and maybe to get noticed. This gives another way for a programmer to do that.
Tim responded to an email discussion between Corinne Yu and me. He says that he likes open source because of the power it gives the community to do new things with the engine. He does not, however, like the idea of merging other peoples code back into the engine. I don't mind the latter as long as its on a small scale.
Brandon Reinhart
Dunno. I don't want to start any flame wars, because I know everyone will have their own opinions, but my opinion is that I enjoy UT a lot more than I do Q3A. I bought both as soon as they were available mostly because I wanted to do as much as I could to show my support to these companies for supporting Linux, not because I'm some kind of FPS maniac, because I'm not.
I played UT first, so that might have biased my opinion a little, but after getting a couple friends to play them both too, I'm not so sure.
Q3A seems to have better overall framerate. Which isn't such a surprise considering who wrote the danged engine. UT seems to have better "playability" for lack of a better term.
A friend of mine who has now also played both made the comment that "Q3A 'feels like' an arcade game" while UT "feels like" a really nice FPS. Q3A, to me, has some dreadfully boring weapons, it's maps are... well... mostly red, orange and brown, and the bots on the one hand don't seem to be very smart and on the other run around like weasels on speed, making it virtually impossible to hit them.
UT on the other hand, has a really diverse collection of maps, great weapon selection (and the sounds that go along seem to be better in production quality, too, making them more fun to play with) and its bots in many cases have been hard for me to tell if I was playing a bot or another person. (Granted, not a very good person, but still...)
I dunno, like I said, I'm not trying to start a flame war, but Q3A really kind of gave me the same impression as the new Star Wars movie -- a lot of hype and then it really was just "OK" for the most part. (Well, ok I HATED TPM, but you get the idea...) Not to say that Q3A isn't fun, it is, but I don't think Epic has anything to worry about Q3A digging them a big hole to go lie down in. A LOT of people are enjoying UT and doing a lot of third-party mods for it.
I guess I just kind of take exception to that comment in the same way I would take exception to someone saying something like "Well, now that Linux is on the scene, I guess FreeBSD is just gonna die." They're just different and they will each have their fans and personally I'm glad they're BOTH running on Linux.
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My mom's going to kick you in the face!
So you are a hypocrite.
You'll use the tools, but won't give the time of day to the methods used to create them. Talk about stupid.
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Eh I misread the article. I thought that in the client there was some bit of usefulness. They're not 1-up'ing anything.
Restating the obvious since nineteen aught five.