This confirms something I've always thought true, especially when I first saw CSS come out (although mostly with CSS 2.0, the much more troublesome incarnation). New technologies, whether it be AJAX (which is becoming known for being insecure), CSS, or even HTML when it first came out, do not equal instant good design. Even now, users of HTML, arguably one of the oldest markup languages on the internet (or the oldest most used markup), still utilize what have become poor features, notably the marquee tag (interestingly implemented by Internet Explorer), and some consider tables a remanent (although arguably still useful tag) since CSS came along.
Web design has always been, IMO, about compromises: compromise for what you want to do for what you can do, for what you want and what works, for what's ambitious to what's practical. Just because you have that bomb, doesn't mean you have to blow something up. This why only recently have i considered learning more beyond HTML and CSS (the later which I'm still learning to get a fluent grasp on without consulting tutorials every 5 mins). Again, IMO, I would point out that PHP is probably the only technology of Web 2.0 that has proved more useful than troublesome, which is why I plan on learning it whenever I stop stalling and actually take an intro to programming course I regretfully choose not to take in high school in favor of "learning" Word for an entire semester >_>.
It's not all hopeless though; part of the fallout of this whole Web 2.0 business is that the new technologies will eventually be learned enough to utilize more specifically instead of riding a popularity wave. It's all really silly when most changes happen gradually; it's just the same game as whatever Web 1.0 was with different cards and different players.
yea it was a pretty horrible comment, shows what i know aye? i meant to say "by programmers for programmers" as an afterthought but yea couldn't edit it.
my comment was probably further proof that I won't ever "get it". I apologize for making anyone's head hurt:\.
The assortment of such being the usual numerous live cd's tried and the numerous excersions into linux forums, bombarded by "advice", I can safely say (IMO) the future looks questionable in terms of linux becoming popular (mainstream), let alone the way linux packages software. Linux just isn't lazy enough; and yet no one wants to admit it when most who use it are programmers/non-lazy people/engineers/whatever that most average users are not, and may never be. Admitelly, when Im very hyped on coffee on the odd ocassion, getting onto Knoppix can be fun/rewarding, but as soon as I'm sober and/or I begin messing around with the CMD, I sigh and boot back into Xp, knowing I can get stuff done more efficiently since it's easier to navigate.
Of course, thats until I get the umpteenth BSOD because my fucking wireless adapter somehow messes shit up or i get the damn IRQL's again. Luckily, due to my perseverance in saving money, I'll be riding myself of this problem by purchasing a 20 inch IMAC around the time Leopard comes out. IF XP sucks balls then Id imagine Vista more or less swallowing; despite the usefulness in gaming vista might be, id rather stick with XP, buy a PS3 when the price goes down, and even wait around for gaming on the mac to pickup.
For now, Linux remains an odd curiosity; to me, it will remain the high school japanese class that stresses learning vocabulary and getting you the grade instead of the SVO and punctuation structure until a new teacher and/or class appears, finally showing the light to those who just don't seem to get it.
I do have hopes for Linux though, but honestly, I think the Google OS, er, Haiku looks interesting;D.
oh well, at least they are updating HTML, should be interesting:
"...In November 2006, the HTML Working Group published a new charter indicating its intent to resume development of HTML in a manner that unifies HTML 4 and XHTML 1, allowing for this hybrid language to manifest in both an XML format and a "classic HTML" format that is SGML-compatible but not strictly SGML-based. Among other things, it is planned that the new specification, to be released and refined throughout 2007 through 2008, will include conformance and parsing requirements, DOM APIs, and new widgets and APIs. The group also intends to publish test suites and validation tools.[8]"
Indeed, while last month I went through my no-CSS stage of messing around in design, this past week Ive jumped on again to see if I can see what the hype is all about. Even if I knew it inside out, I probably wouldn't use more than CSS1 as tables are considerably easier to deal with. Plus, the concept of seperating content and such with CSS doesn't make much sense at all; it seemingly does at first glance, but honestly, seperating the content from presentation is like seperating a team of IT operators in to 3 seperate groups into 3 seperate rooms: sure it may look all nice and tidy in each room, and they can all communicate via phone and such but if some shit goes down, their response time to an emergency would be greatly reduced; especially if a few of them only know how to work printers and have no fucking clue what the different colors mean on the monitor.
CSS seems like a good idea on paper, and the constraints idea would've definatly helped CSS, but overall it's mostly bureaucratical nonsense that can make things look pretty. But sometimes the eye candy is too hard to resist instead of going for something more nutritious and filling.
It's probably due to not only specialization, but the growth of more methods and more complex methods of designing on the internet. When I first got a computer around 1999 - 2000, I remember around 6 months into being on the internet wanting to learn how to start web designing. It probably took me about 2 years of self teaching to get familiar with HTML (the 3rd or 4th year I pretty much knew everything about HTML), and only recently in the past year have I been serious enough to sit down and learn CSS (on shaky ground since CSS2 sucks standards balls, but whenever I get to taking a web design course or when I fully comprehend the box model I should be fine). I never learned javascript because I never took an intro to programming class in high school (i regret it), and don't give me that generic arrogance about not needing to programming to know javascript: Ive met plenty of people who just dont get programming at all, and a few of these 6 or 7 finally went to an intro to progamming class and were finally able to get it (one of them is still stuck on visual basic, another breezed through and is currently learning C# and PHP.)
That brings me to another point: early web designing (where it was just basically HTML, Javascript,) required much less patience and certain abstract concepts to utilize (i.e. the box method with CSS). When most moved to CSS, and left tables behind, a ew stood by tables and Im more than sure a seperate group eventually just stopped doing web design altogether. Im beginning to see that this might be true, as although Im currently so far into learning CSS that I might as well go the full mile and learn it inside out, I can't say the same for AJAX or all of PHP. The simple days of simply delivering content effectivly were more than met by HTML and javascript, but then other concepts became important: appearence, feedback, viewer interaction, standards (always been there but became a spotlight issue as more browsers appeared, css appeared, and when IE *was* the dominant browser).
Web 2.0 has been, more or less i think, about interaction and dynamic web pages: blogs, news delivery systems (Drupal, CMS, PHP,.ASP) etc. etc... As time goes by, and as more technologies become popular, I wont' be surprised to see the roles of the webmaster further mutate (very obvious), but I also wont be shocked at the changing numbers of webmasters; like say, during this whole web 2.0 charade, many become dormant because their goals/ideals/philosophies/techniques as webmasters do not fit the current climate of focus: obviously, if your a professional web deisnger, adhering to older technologies wouldn't get you much of a job, but if your slow to evolve and/or learn newer ones, your job security becomes null. I bet when the hype around certain technologies dies down, some will become less dormant and possibly some will start learning some of the technologies they originally rejected (a backlash of the backlash, if you will).
Personally, Ive gotten tired of web designing specifically because with CSS, my perfectionism has made doing any web design on my own free time for my own (hiatus) sites a living fucking hell because I cant stick with a design lol. Of course, I haven't taken any officially training or courses, so I'm sure that would help eventually. I wouldn't be surprised if some perfectionists just slowly gave up when all these new technologies came out (depending on certain webmaster's laziness or discipline levels ).
Although, PHP is pretty useful, I'll eventually learn it when I know how to program. Until then it's just notepad, what litle patience I have, and trial and error. XD. Anyways, all in all, certain new technologies are going to weed out those who want to adopt, and those who don't. And then of those two, there could be two other groups: those who end up quitting altogether, and those who wait out the trendy tide and come out during the calm waters. I hope I'm one of the later:/.
"dude, can you hook me up with a fake REAL ID?"
"I'm not letting you drink, 18 year old younger brother."
"No, I need one so I can move out and spawn."
Yay for Maine. REAL ID is (in the dictionary sense) typical of the political "repacking the old in something new" bull$hit crowd.
I doubt it would've changed much as whatever they would've come up with, most likley being different than the I-pod is today, wouldn't have been as popular. I'd imagine lawyers woulda have the ultimate field day with connecting the dots for anti-trust violations and M$ and/or Apple would've backed away saying "Just joshin, we'll make humourous commercials instead."
Although the whole "what-if" scenario will still get to those who bother. If anything derived from such a past-possible parternship was indeed sucessful, any more collaboration probably would develop over a much longer-term period of time.
Unless of course, it were to just own everything on the planet, which in the literal sense of the word, M$ aspires to and Apple likes to own hardware and sell it at fairly expensive prices while both buy/own into the flawed concept of DRM.
The thought of a Win-Pod, or I-win (perhaps Irwin?) is funny though.
Needless to say, I'm bored right now... XD
*continues the 9 to 5*
This doesn't surprise me as, from what I've heard/read about/seen, Vista is pulling a Tarentino with some of OS X's and KDE's features/looks. Fiji? Vienna? Hmm, sounds llike a similar codename series ala OS X (Tiger, Jaguar, Leporard, etc...).
Mess with the best, die with the rest become the best, perchance? At least everyone could agree that this will be interesting (either in terms of history repeating itself or being revamped enough to possible suggest humans can indeed learn from mistakes and add 1 and 1 together without developing a brain tumor:\.
Needless to say, i'll be moving to Vista probably around the same time when I get a Ps3, which will probably be 2010.
teeeeen in twenty teeeen....
...was this: On September 25, 2006 11:53 AM, Jonah A. Libster said...
"I think many of you are missing a key element here: Culture. If you've been to Japan for any significant duration (and I have) you'll know that unlike the USA/Canada, Japan has a strong sense of tradition and history. In addition, the people in Japan don't balk at higer prices the way we do. Its all cooperative there: Everyone charges higher prices with the understanding it supports higher quality of living(and funny enough, it WORKS!). When I was there food was 30% higher than the cost of North America, computers were almost double, and for the same US dollars you get 1/2 the size can of soda but people there bear all this without complaint. Every kid in my village had a PS2 even though the income there was significantly lower than the city dwellers. You get the idea.
A long time high profile company like Sony will most likely do the following: Sell of the components that have more foriegn interest than Japanese, especially since the Japanese Government often frown at foriegn ownership of Japanese property (its illegal to buy property unless you are a citizen there) and companies. This would include large parts (not 100%) of the movie and music division (keep the Japanese division) and computer divisions (but keep its locally profitable Japanese division, including monitors and computers). I believe NEC did something similar: I saw tons of NEC products in Japan (computers, appliances, laptops, TVs and other things) but only a few monitors and CD/DVD drives in North America. Same for Toshiba (I had a Toshiba bicycle believe it or not!). By selling off the foriegn interests and keeping the Japanese (where price is less of an issue) they solve their problems, go back to their roots, and are more likely to get government assistance should they really need it.
The battery incident did the most damage to Sony on a PR/Cultural level because people in Japan are not very forgiving with cutting corners and are often in the habit of demanding public apologies (unlike here where we quickly dismiss corporate "mistakes") when such incidents are made public. The Japanese government has bailed out financially troubled Japanese companies as many as 3 times in the past, but it looks bad to give goverment money to a company who has a public scandle or two in the spotlight. (the second case being the rootkit incident) I suspect there is pressure to reduce or eliminate its foriegn music interests(save the Chinese division) so they can live it down faster.
anyway there is my view on the matter. Numbers are only part of the picture. Some one once said, "respectability is the ultimate currency". In Japan, that is certainly true. Never dismiss cultural beliefs when creating a financial analysis. Oh, in regards to the PS3 story, for reasons I stated above, Sony will probably not want to support PS3 in North America (or as little as it can get away with) but give full support to Japanese purchasers. Why? Because the Japanese are more like to "work harder" to pay the higher price, lower shipping costs, cultural compatibility on support as well as higher cost of providing foriegn support. I think the biggest problem with the PS3 in North America is some Japanese corporate executives only looked at the marketing problem from a Japanese prospective (cultrual differences underestimated again). I'm sure some "shame" was generated by this oversight."
portions of Tokyo Underworld by robert whiting would have an interesting take on this me thinks...:D
Slashdot Mirror
This confirms something I've always thought true, especially when I first saw CSS come out (although mostly with CSS 2.0, the much more troublesome incarnation). New technologies, whether it be AJAX (which is becoming known for being insecure), CSS, or even HTML when it first came out, do not equal instant good design. Even now, users of HTML, arguably one of the oldest markup languages on the internet (or the oldest most used markup), still utilize what have become poor features, notably the marquee tag (interestingly implemented by Internet Explorer), and some consider tables a remanent (although arguably still useful tag) since CSS came along. Web design has always been, IMO, about compromises: compromise for what you want to do for what you can do, for what you want and what works, for what's ambitious to what's practical. Just because you have that bomb, doesn't mean you have to blow something up. This why only recently have i considered learning more beyond HTML and CSS (the later which I'm still learning to get a fluent grasp on without consulting tutorials every 5 mins). Again, IMO, I would point out that PHP is probably the only technology of Web 2.0 that has proved more useful than troublesome, which is why I plan on learning it whenever I stop stalling and actually take an intro to programming course I regretfully choose not to take in high school in favor of "learning" Word for an entire semester >_>. It's not all hopeless though; part of the fallout of this whole Web 2.0 business is that the new technologies will eventually be learned enough to utilize more specifically instead of riding a popularity wave. It's all really silly when most changes happen gradually; it's just the same game as whatever Web 1.0 was with different cards and different players.
yea it was a pretty horrible comment, shows what i know aye? i meant to say "by programmers for programmers" as an afterthought but yea couldn't edit it. my comment was probably further proof that I won't ever "get it". I apologize for making anyone's head hurt :\.
The assortment of such being the usual numerous live cd's tried and the numerous excersions into linux forums, bombarded by "advice", I can safely say (IMO) the future looks questionable in terms of linux becoming popular (mainstream), let alone the way linux packages software. Linux just isn't lazy enough; and yet no one wants to admit it when most who use it are programmers/non-lazy people/engineers/whatever that most average users are not, and may never be. Admitelly, when Im very hyped on coffee on the odd ocassion, getting onto Knoppix can be fun/rewarding, but as soon as I'm sober and/or I begin messing around with the CMD, I sigh and boot back into Xp, knowing I can get stuff done more efficiently since it's easier to navigate.
Of course, thats until I get the umpteenth BSOD because my fucking wireless adapter somehow messes shit up or i get the damn IRQL's again. Luckily, due to my perseverance in saving money, I'll be riding myself of this problem by purchasing a 20 inch IMAC around the time Leopard comes out. IF XP sucks balls then Id imagine Vista more or less swallowing; despite the usefulness in gaming vista might be, id rather stick with XP, buy a PS3 when the price goes down, and even wait around for gaming on the mac to pickup.
For now, Linux remains an odd curiosity; to me, it will remain the high school japanese class that stresses learning vocabulary and getting you the grade instead of the SVO and punctuation structure until a new teacher and/or class appears, finally showing the light to those who just don't seem to get it.
I do have hopes for Linux though, but honestly, I think the Google OS, er, Haiku looks interesting ;D.
...and I approve of this message.
oh well, at least they are updating HTML, should be interesting:
"...In November 2006, the HTML Working Group published a new charter indicating its intent to resume development of HTML in a manner that unifies HTML 4 and XHTML 1, allowing for this hybrid language to manifest in both an XML format and a "classic HTML" format that is SGML-compatible but not strictly SGML-based. Among other things, it is planned that the new specification, to be released and refined throughout 2007 through 2008, will include conformance and parsing requirements, DOM APIs, and new widgets and APIs. The group also intends to publish test suites and validation tools.[8]"
http://www.w3.org/2006/11/HTML-WG-charter.html
Indeed, while last month I went through my no-CSS stage of messing around in design, this past week Ive jumped on again to see if I can see what the hype is all about. Even if I knew it inside out, I probably wouldn't use more than CSS1 as tables are considerably easier to deal with. Plus, the concept of seperating content and such with CSS doesn't make much sense at all; it seemingly does at first glance, but honestly, seperating the content from presentation is like seperating a team of IT operators in to 3 seperate groups into 3 seperate rooms: sure it may look all nice and tidy in each room, and they can all communicate via phone and such but if some shit goes down, their response time to an emergency would be greatly reduced; especially if a few of them only know how to work printers and have no fucking clue what the different colors mean on the monitor.
CSS seems like a good idea on paper, and the constraints idea would've definatly helped CSS, but overall it's mostly bureaucratical nonsense that can make things look pretty. But sometimes the eye candy is too hard to resist instead of going for something more nutritious and filling.
oh well, maybe CSS 3 will fix somethings?
It's probably due to not only specialization, but the growth of more methods and more complex methods of designing on the internet. When I first got a computer around 1999 - 2000, I remember around 6 months into being on the internet wanting to learn how to start web designing. It probably took me about 2 years of self teaching to get familiar with HTML (the 3rd or 4th year I pretty much knew everything about HTML), and only recently in the past year have I been serious enough to sit down and learn CSS (on shaky ground since CSS2 sucks standards balls, but whenever I get to taking a web design course or when I fully comprehend the box model I should be fine). I never learned javascript because I never took an intro to programming class in high school (i regret it), and don't give me that generic arrogance about not needing to programming to know javascript: Ive met plenty of people who just dont get programming at all, and a few of these 6 or 7 finally went to an intro to progamming class and were finally able to get it (one of them is still stuck on visual basic, another breezed through and is currently learning C# and PHP.)
That brings me to another point: early web designing (where it was just basically HTML, Javascript,) required much less patience and certain abstract concepts to utilize (i.e. the box method with CSS). When most moved to CSS, and left tables behind, a ew stood by tables and Im more than sure a seperate group eventually just stopped doing web design altogether. Im beginning to see that this might be true, as although Im currently so far into learning CSS that I might as well go the full mile and learn it inside out, I can't say the same for AJAX or all of PHP. The simple days of simply delivering content effectivly were more than met by HTML and javascript, but then other concepts became important: appearence, feedback, viewer interaction, standards (always been there but became a spotlight issue as more browsers appeared, css appeared, and when IE *was* the dominant browser). .ASP) etc. etc... As time goes by, and as more technologies become popular, I wont' be surprised to see the roles of the webmaster further mutate (very obvious), but I also wont be shocked at the changing numbers of webmasters; like say, during this whole web 2.0 charade, many become dormant because their goals/ideals/philosophies/techniques as webmasters do not fit the current climate of focus: obviously, if your a professional web deisnger, adhering to older technologies wouldn't get you much of a job, but if your slow to evolve and/or learn newer ones, your job security becomes null. I bet when the hype around certain technologies dies down, some will become less dormant and possibly some will start learning some of the technologies they originally rejected (a backlash of the backlash, if you will).
Web 2.0 has been, more or less i think, about interaction and dynamic web pages: blogs, news delivery systems (Drupal, CMS, PHP,
Personally, Ive gotten tired of web designing specifically because with CSS, my perfectionism has made doing any web design on my own free time for my own (hiatus) sites a living fucking hell because I cant stick with a design lol. Of course, I haven't taken any officially training or courses, so I'm sure that would help eventually. I wouldn't be surprised if some perfectionists just slowly gave up when all these new technologies came out (depending on certain webmaster's laziness or discipline levels ). :/.
Although, PHP is pretty useful, I'll eventually learn it when I know how to program. Until then it's just notepad, what litle patience I have, and trial and error. XD. Anyways, all in all, certain new technologies are going to weed out those who want to adopt, and those who don't. And then of those two, there could be two other groups: those who end up quitting altogether, and those who wait out the trendy tide and come out during the calm waters. I hope I'm one of the later
Wheeeeeere is my automobile?!
...is how much Bill sounds like Tim Robbins who was trying to be Bill & Steve in Antitrust.
I also second the 2040 remark, wouldn't be surprised if it turned out like that.
"dude, can you hook me up with a fake REAL ID?"
"I'm not letting you drink, 18 year old younger brother."
"No, I need one so I can move out and spawn."
Yay for Maine. REAL ID is (in the dictionary sense) typical of the political "repacking the old in something new" bull$hit crowd.
federalism + meh = history repeating itself...
Their storage goes up to eleven.
I doubt it would've changed much as whatever they would've come up with, most likley being different than the I-pod is today, wouldn't have been as popular. I'd imagine lawyers woulda have the ultimate field day with connecting the dots for anti-trust violations and M$ and/or Apple would've backed away saying "Just joshin, we'll make humourous commercials instead."
Although the whole "what-if" scenario will still get to those who bother. If anything derived from such a past-possible parternship was indeed sucessful, any more collaboration probably would develop over a much longer-term period of time.
Unless of course, it were to just own everything on the planet, which in the literal sense of the word, M$ aspires to and Apple likes to own hardware and sell it at fairly expensive prices while both buy/own into the flawed concept of DRM.
The thought of a Win-Pod, or I-win (perhaps Irwin?) is funny though.
Needless to say, I'm bored right now ... XD
*continues the 9 to 5*
This doesn't surprise me as, from what I've heard/read about/seen, Vista is pulling a Tarentino with some of OS X's and KDE's features/looks. Fiji? Vienna? Hmm, sounds llike a similar codename series ala OS X (Tiger, Jaguar, Leporard, etc...). Mess with the best, die with the rest become the best, perchance? At least everyone could agree that this will be interesting (either in terms of history repeating itself or being revamped enough to possible suggest humans can indeed learn from mistakes and add 1 and 1 together without developing a brain tumor :\.
Needless to say, i'll be moving to Vista probably around the same time when I get a Ps3, which will probably be 2010.
teeeeen in twenty teeeen....
...was this: On September 25, 2006 11:53 AM, Jonah A. Libster said...
"I think many of you are missing a key element here: Culture. If you've been to Japan for any significant duration (and I have) you'll know that unlike the USA/Canada, Japan has a strong sense of tradition and history. In addition, the people in Japan don't balk at higer prices the way we do. Its all cooperative there: Everyone charges higher prices with the understanding it supports higher quality of living(and funny enough, it WORKS!). When I was there food was 30% higher than the cost of North America, computers were almost double, and for the same US dollars you get 1/2 the size can of soda but people there bear all this without complaint. Every kid in my village had a PS2 even though the income there was significantly lower than the city dwellers. You get the idea.
A long time high profile company like Sony will most likely do the following: Sell of the components that have more foriegn interest than Japanese, especially since the Japanese Government often frown at foriegn ownership of Japanese property (its illegal to buy property unless you are a citizen there) and companies. This would include large parts (not 100%) of the movie and music division (keep the Japanese division) and computer divisions (but keep its locally profitable Japanese division, including monitors and computers). I believe NEC did something similar: I saw tons of NEC products in Japan (computers, appliances, laptops, TVs and other things) but only a few monitors and CD/DVD drives in North America. Same for Toshiba (I had a Toshiba bicycle believe it or not!). By selling off the foriegn interests and keeping the Japanese (where price is less of an issue) they solve their problems, go back to their roots, and are more likely to get government assistance should they really need it.
The battery incident did the most damage to Sony on a PR/Cultural level because people in Japan are not very forgiving with cutting corners and are often in the habit of demanding public apologies (unlike here where we quickly dismiss corporate "mistakes") when such incidents are made public. The Japanese government has bailed out financially troubled Japanese companies as many as 3 times in the past, but it looks bad to give goverment money to a company who has a public scandle or two in the spotlight. (the second case being the rootkit incident) I suspect there is pressure to reduce or eliminate its foriegn music interests(save the Chinese division) so they can live it down faster.
anyway there is my view on the matter. Numbers are only part of the picture. Some one once said, "respectability is the ultimate currency". In Japan, that is certainly true. Never dismiss cultural beliefs when creating a financial analysis. Oh, in regards to the PS3 story, for reasons I stated above, Sony will probably not want to support PS3 in North America (or as little as it can get away with) but give full support to Japanese purchasers. Why? Because the Japanese are more like to "work harder" to pay the higher price, lower shipping costs, cultural compatibility on support as well as higher cost of providing foriegn support. I think the biggest problem with the PS3 in North America is some Japanese corporate executives only looked at the marketing problem from a Japanese prospective (cultrual differences underestimated again). I'm sure some "shame" was generated by this oversight."
portions of Tokyo Underworld by robert whiting would have an interesting take on this me thinks... :D